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Two-strokes fight back


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#1 rd500

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 13:27

dont know if any of you guys have seen this, well worth the read

http://twostrokemoto...es-strike-back/

my fave bit

It may even happen, as Bartol becomes more and more disenchanted with racing’s four-stroke pogrom: “The technical reasons for the change is nonsense. They are all excuses for a business plan which is coming from Honda.”







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#2 cheapracer

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 13:48

Yeah Rick Sieman, AKA "Super Hunky" has a lot to say on the subject...

http://www.google.co...l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0

Most interesting ..

http://www.supercros...m/1/view/480636

I myself have started the build process on a revolutionary new 4 stroke engine "the Bex" that resolves both the 4 stroke and 2 stroke problems so soon it's all going to be moot points anyway ;)

Edited by cheapracer, 29 July 2011 - 13:49.


#3 Russell Burrows

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 14:45

Oh, there's that sudden rear wheel breaking sensation, better grab the clut.. 'Hello, I'm your nurse - do you remember what happened two weeks ago' ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 29 July 2011 - 16:48.


#4 Herr Wankel

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 18:08

Oh, there's that sudden rear wheel breaking sensation, better grab the clut.. 'Hello, I'm your nurse - do you remember what happened two weeks ago' ?


You've never forgiven Bultaco have you Russell ? :rotfl:

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#5 rd500

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 14:25

they seem to have all this technology available for this great engine, but weve been hearing about these types of ideas since around 2006 onwards but nothing has been produced.

is it they dont want us to have it as it would kill the moneymaker?

imagine that bike though, a 600 twin with 120+ bhp in a 250 frame :drunk: where do i sign up!

it seems we are going back to the future with all the small companys promoting the 2 stroke and the big manufacturers sticking with old designs.





#6 Russell Burrows

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 19:44

Honda's bike sales are leading the company out of the post tsunami kack they've found themselves in of late. They just can't make enough of those lovely fourstrokes. :eek:

#7 larryd

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 22:59

You've never forgiven Bultaco have you Russell ? :rotfl:

HW


You don't need Bultos, Andy.

Stay with the Brits - just think Greeves Tombstones and their primary rubber bands . . . . . .

:rotfl:


#8 Herr Wankel

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:11

You don't need Bultos, Andy.

Stay with the Brits - just think Greeves Tombstones and their primary rubber bands . . . . . .

:rotfl:

Ah,the Greeves,funny how the mind blocks out certain things.Thanks for reminding me Larry :wave:

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#9 rd500

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:35

more good news coming through for us 2 stroke enthusiats

for 2012 Husaberg will sell only 2 strokes in the usa as well as many other parts of the world. the machines they have have already won races in europe. one of the bikes is a 250cc bike which reportedly be around £2000 cheaper than its heavier, less powerful fourstroke competition.

ktm are bringing the 125cc moto x machine back aswell which it dropped a few years back, these are the starting blocks of a great return for the ultimate motorcycling engine.

its no secret that ktm sold more 2 stroke bikes than some of the major factories last year and as people are seeing through the outdated stereotypes and propoganda, the return is imminent :clap:

#10 cheapracer

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 09:35

Honda's bike sales are leading the company out of the post tsunami kack they've found themselves in of late. They just can't make enough of those lovely fourstrokes. :eek:


May end up 'back to the future' where everyone sells 2 strokes except Honda who are kept busy with mostly 4 strokes.


#11 Dewie

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:51

What are you blokes on? Where can I get some? :lol:

#12 Herr Wankel

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:01

What are you blokes on? Where can I get some? :lol:


Mostly home-brew mate,laced with 4% two stroke oil :lol:

HW

#13 rd500

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 09:39

Mostly home-brew mate,laced with 4% two stroke oil :lol:

HW


ill second that with added av gas

#14 rotrax

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:31

more good news coming through for us 2 stroke enthusiats

for 2012 Husaberg will sell only 2 strokes in the usa as well as many other parts of the world. the machines they have have already won races in europe. one of the bikes is a 250cc bike which reportedly be around £2000 cheaper than its heavier, less powerful fourstroke competition.

ktm are bringing the 125cc moto x machine back aswell which it dropped a few years back, these are the starting blocks of a great return for the ultimate motorcycling engine.

its no secret that ktm sold more 2 stroke bikes than some of the major factories last year and as people are seeing through the outdated stereotypes and propoganda, the return is imminent :clap:

I dont know what your smoking but can you get me some?

#15 rd500

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 13:31

I dont know what your smoking but can you get me some?


massive amonts of castrol 747 rotrax :lol:

im just totally dedicated to the 2 stroke and i know it can seem i spout a load of drivel but i like the thought there are fellow enthusiasts out there that share the same passion. :up:

#16 rotrax

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 14:25

massive amonts of castrol 747 rotrax :lol:

im just totally dedicated to the 2 stroke and i know it can seem i spout a load of drivel but i like the thought there are fellow enthusiasts out there that share the same passion. :up:

Point taken-keep it up!

#17 Herr Wankel

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:04

I dont know what your smoking but can you get me some?

Don't mention smoke MC,the enviro chaps don't like it. :cat:

HW

#18 Russell Burrows

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:10

You say fight back, I say cut back. :smoking:

#19 Herr Wankel

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 15:33

You say fight back, I say cut back. :smoking:


I'm just happy to have lived through such an 'un-pc' era

HW

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#20 greendog66

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 07:52

I'm just happy to have lived through such an 'un-pc' era

HW


I started roadracing 44 years ago 90% of my machines were two strokes my road bikes 100% four strokes.
"Horses for courses"
Tony Green

#21 rd500

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 02:36

From an online magazine........

The Four Stroke Hysteria has gone on for the last decade or so now, with manufacturers, knowing that any idiot out there can or used to be able to get a loan for an overpriced, overweight, over-blinged, over-engineered two-or-four-wheeled, 4 stroke powered atrocity, why, the sky was the limit for what primarily the Big Four (Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Spewzuki) and other, less famous marques foisted upon their customers in what amounts to one of the largest social-engineering experiments of all time; namely, these manufacturers sought to become a Nanny-state benevolent dictator and dictate what you will and wont buy.

In comparison to how much money can be made from four-stroke technology, with the potential for warranty-free repair work completely obliterating what service departments made repairing two-stroke bikes, and customers having to spend more and more to buy and maintain these engineering disasters, of course, usually through the dealerships the fix was in before you could say $2500 repair bill!

The road/motocross bikes switched to four-stroke technology, anyone riding a two-stroke was ridiculed, and outright written out of competition, with rules and track design (Assen moto gp 2002 example) being rewritten to keep the Big Fours cash kickbacks/Advertising coming in and social engineering experiments running full steam. This has gone on, for all intents and purposes, for the last decade. An entire decade lost to what could-have-been with the much-simpler, lighter, more-efficient-and-much-less-costly-to-maintain two-stroke engine, with tens of thousands of gullible idiots falling prey to the faux sophistication offered up by buying a technologically-advanced four-stroke-powered machine. An entire decade gone with the fart-can-4-stroke-exhaust wind, because the Big Four, along with other manufacturers, decided that short-term financial gain, and selling out to the Green lobby (the publicly-disclosed reason for why they ditched the two-stroke), was much more important than ensuring long-term survival, fleecing customers out of millions of dollars for flawed, over-engineered, Formula-1-derived, pointless technology that no Joe Six-Pack ever asked for.




#22 SgtPepperoni

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:57

From an online magazine........

The Four Stroke Hysteria has gone on for the last decade or so now, with manufacturers, knowing that any idiot out there can or used to be able to get a loan for an overpriced, overweight, over-blinged, over-engineered two-or-four-wheeled, 4 stroke powered atrocity, why, the sky was the limit for what primarily the Big Four (Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Spewzuki) and other, less famous marques foisted upon their customers in what amounts to one of the largest social-engineering experiments of all time; namely, these manufacturers sought to become a Nanny-state benevolent dictator and dictate what you will and wont buy.

In comparison to how much money can be made from four-stroke technology, with the potential for warranty-free repair work completely obliterating what service departments made repairing two-stroke bikes, and customers having to spend more and more to buy and maintain these engineering disasters, of course, usually through the dealerships the fix was in before you could say $2500 repair bill!

The road/motocross bikes switched to four-stroke technology, anyone riding a two-stroke was ridiculed, and outright written out of competition, with rules and track design (Assen moto gp 2002 example) being rewritten to keep the Big Fours cash kickbacks/Advertising coming in and social engineering experiments running full steam. This has gone on, for all intents and purposes, for the last decade. An entire decade lost to what could-have-been with the much-simpler, lighter, more-efficient-and-much-less-costly-to-maintain two-stroke engine, with tens of thousands of gullible idiots falling prey to the faux sophistication offered up by buying a technologically-advanced four-stroke-powered machine. An entire decade gone with the fart-can-4-stroke-exhaust wind, because the Big Four, along with other manufacturers, decided that short-term financial gain, and selling out to the Green lobby (the publicly-disclosed reason for why they ditched the two-stroke), was much more important than ensuring long-term survival, fleecing customers out of millions of dollars for flawed, over-engineered, Formula-1-derived, pointless technology that no Joe Six-Pack ever asked for.

Almost everything we have foisted on us today has never been asked for. Trust me, we are no longer important. We shall do as we are told, shut our mouths, and learn to live it. We have become slaves of the corporate and political world which are one and the same, and our new religion is the godless abomanation called, political correctness.
Er, I think I just heard my front door being kicked in...................


#23 Herr Wankel

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:27

Almost everything we have foisted on us today has never been asked for. Trust me, we are no longer important. We shall do as we are told, shut our mouths, and learn to live it. We have become slaves of the corporate and political world which are one and the same, and our new religion is the godless abomanation called, political correctness.
Er, I think I just heard my front door being kicked in...................

Don't worry mate,they'll never see you through the smoke :rotfl:

More seriously, many years ago Big H won their class in the Paris-Dakar with a 300cc 2 stroke single cylinder. The motor was revolutionary in as much as it used controlled detonation for ignition (usually the death of strokers) Result : A clean burning, torquey,fuel efficient,and get this -- SIMPLE motor. It was given the title Active Radical. The spin off was the CRM250 Trail/enduro machine with all the above virtues plus the bugger would do 100 mph on tarmac. But the general motorcycle public is a fickle animal (as a rotary enthusiast, I know this all too well) and it was not a world beater on the sales front. But heres the thing. Honda had/has the tech know-how,and despite extolling the virtues of those valve thingies, you can bet your last pint of Silkolene Super 2 that they have some chappies beavering away in a cupboard at HQ just in case the tide turns. As an aside,one of my neighbours is an MX enthusiast,and KTM fanatic. He has both 2 and 4 stroke models. He says that the 4 strokes are very easy to master, but high cost,high maintenance,and not long lived. And if you don't do the scheduled parts renewals, disaster !! (= scrap) Par contre, the 2 stroke 250 is fast ,exciting, and owner friendly. He's no bull-shitter I might add and a former regional champ. In the end we are being (as ever) dictated to by the major players,after all its our money they are after,not our minds. Loved the factory Hondas of the 60s,loved the MZ racers, loved the 500/4 (or 3) strokers, loved the Manx's, Seeleys,and also adored the JPS Rotary Nortons, but do not love the 2 stroke Genocide that is being committed. We used to have variety,now what have we got ?

HW

#24 picblanc

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:36

Good rant Andy all to true, glad I am in the pipe & slippers years of my life, I do get angry but now I forget why & it makes me tired so I have a nap in the old arm chair and dream of days gone by, the best days I think!

#25 Herr Wankel

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:47

Good rant Andy all to true, glad I am in the pipe & slippers years of my life, I do get angry but now I forget why & it makes me tired so I have a nap in the old arm chair and dream of days gone by, the best days I think!


Its snowing outside mate,so I had to let off steam some-how :p

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#26 rd500

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 10:13

Don't worry mate,they'll never see you through the smoke :rotfl:

More seriously, many years ago Big H won their class in the Paris-Dakar with a 300cc 2 stroke single cylinder. The motor was revolutionary in as much as it used controlled detonation for ignition (usually the death of strokers) Result : A clean burning, torquey,fuel efficient,and get this -- SIMPLE motor. It was given the title Active Radical. The spin off was the CRM250 Trail/enduro machine with all the above virtues plus the bugger would do 100 mph on tarmac. But the general motorcycle public is a fickle animal (as a rotary enthusiast, I know this all too well) and it was not a world beater on the sales front. But heres the thing. Honda had/has the tech know-how,and despite extolling the virtues of those valve thingies, you can bet your last pint of Silkolene Super 2 that they have some chappies beavering away in a cupboard at HQ just in case the tide turns.
HW


This was Hondas famous HCCI system that was on the enduro (i didnt think that bike ever made it to the showrooms), the same system used when Itoh did 200.2 mph 20 years ago on an NSR500.

I rekon they were shocked enough with the advantage this system gave to keep it under wraps, after all it took another decade before carburettor 500s were acheiving this level of performance.








#27 Herr Wankel

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:10

This was Hondas famous HCCI system that was on the enduro (i didnt think that bike ever made it to the showrooms), the same system used when Itoh did 200.2 mph 20 years ago on an NSR500.

I rekon they were shocked enough with the advantage this system gave to keep it under wraps, after all it took another decade before carburettor 500s were acheiving this level of performance.


It did make it to production 1996-9. Iwas wrong about the Dakar bike as it was 440cc,and whilst it didn't win overall,I think there was a class for it that it did win.



Honda readies Activated Radical Combustion
two-stroke engine for production motorcycle

Honda has been researching and developing the Activated Radical Combustion (ARC) two-stroke engine for several years. As a showcase of the engine's viability and durability in the most arduous conditions, Honda's R&D Asaka Center successfully raced the experimental EXP-2, 440-cm3, single-cylinder, off-road motorcycle in the gruelling Granada-Dakar Rally in 1995, the event that covered 8000 km of mostly desert terrains and in which the two-stroke had been thought to be at a disadvantage for its inherent gas-guzzling trait. The EXP-2 placed fifth overall in the motorcycle category, proving its worth in this most arduous test of machines and riders.

Honda is now readying a production dual-purpose (on- and off-road) motorcycle employing the ARC technology. With the ARC, Honda is applying a "third" combustion process to the piston-compression, internal combustion engine. The first and second piston-compression, internal combustion engine types are, of course, the spark-ignited gasoline (and alternative fuels) engine and the compression-ignition diesel.

Honda observes that the "burning" of gasoline in an engine is not a simple, procedural process; mix fuel with air, add ignition source, bang, and let the process take its effect. It is chemically more complex, with a large number of intermediate chemical reactions. In essence, asserts Honda, combustion begins with an initiating reaction that forms highly reactive intermediate molecules, or activated radicals, from the stable fuel and air of the incoming charge. Propagating reactions continue with various molecules reacting with these active radicals. These propagating reactions from both additional reactant molecules and more active radicals to continue the combustion process, which goes on as long as it unleashes enough energy to continue the chain.

The ARC phenomenon was observed by many owners of two-stroke-powered motorcycles, generators, and other products, whose engines would continue running after the electrical ignition was shut off. This auto-ignition was generally attributed to a pre-ignition caused by hot spots in the combustion chamber, and engineers' attention was focused on eliminating it. Honda pays due homage to the researchers who had earlier discovered the role of active radicals in the auto-ignition phenomenon: Yakov Zoldvitch in the 1930s, and more recently notable efforts by Toyota's Masaaki Noguchi and his team (The Toyota-Nippon-Soken combustion, SAE 790840), and Shigeru Ohnishi of the Nippon Clean Engine Research Institutes who had actually constructed a stationary engine for generators on the active radical principle in the late 1970s.

In 1992, Honda started a small research project, under the direction chief engineer Minoru Matsuda, to determine if this auto-ignition process could practically solve the irregular combustion problem for two-stroke engines. The team, led by Yoichi Ishibashi, made surprisingly rapid and fruitful progress. While Ohnishi had earlier broadened the engine's auto-ignition range by throttling the flow of fresh charge from the crankcase into the cylinder (usual two-stroke breathing practices), this was not sufficient for a mobile power plant.

Honda engineers determined that, for any given engine load, the most important variables controlling the occurrence of the auto-ignition process were the temperature of the residual gas and the pressure remaining in the cylinder when the exhaust port was closed. That last value, explains Honda, pressure at exhaust closing, or PEC, could be readily regulated by a very simple mechanical design, a movable valve to throttle flow at the exhaust port, and thus retain higher pressures in the cylinder.

For a vehicle engine, the ARC auto-ignition process could not be the sole source of ignition over the engine operating range. So in the Honda ARC application, spark ignition is still employed at very lowest load conditions, such as at idling, for which there was so little incoming charge that sufficient temperatures could not be maintained, and at high loads for which there was too little residual charge and too little heat from the charge. The ARC could operate from roughly 5% of peak load to 60%, but it is most efficient from about 6 to 22% load, almost exactly the range at which irregular combustion causes the most problems in a conventional spark-ignited two-stroke engine.

The EXP-2 experimental motorcycle's 402-cm3 capacity was chosen to compete in the Granada-Dakar rally against a horde of large-displacement four-stroke competitors. Honda took its own NX4780 Vee-twin four-stroke offroader, whose performance and fuel consumption characteristics were placed under scrutiny, whereupon the EXP-2's specifications were determined. The EXP-2 employed an exotic PGM-FI fuel injection system, hitherto reserved to Honda's Grand Prix racers. The fuel injection was chosen for the computer's ability to be readily brought in to control the exhaust valve operation, not because it was essential for fuel feed.

The production-prototype ARC engine is a liquid-cooled, single-cylinder 250-cm3 unit breathing from a conventional side-draft carburetor. The electronic control unit controls the stainless-steel ARC (exhaust port control) valve which is actuated by an electric servo motor, ignition change-over between spark-ignition and ARC-auto-ignition, and carburetor idling and slow-jet. The ECU is fed with various information including transmission gear position, engine rpm, coolant temperature, and throttle opening angle.

Honda claims the following improvements with the ARC:
Fuel economy improvement: 27% improvement on Honda's own real-life operating mode; 29% improvement at a steady 60 km/h
Reduction of hydrocarbon emission by 50%
Market improvement in driveability.

Edited by Herr Wankel, 25 February 2013 - 11:14.


#28 rd500

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:21

cheers HW :up:



#29 rd500

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 12:32

well whats happening for us 2 stroke guys this year,

it seems the fabled CCRT championship is now dead and nothing has happened information wise since early 2012 on the championships. :(

better news is that we still have The 2013 Monster Energy Motostar Championship with 125s going up against the new style moto 3 4 strokes, the 2 stroke won the championship last year with Luke Hedger but he has now moved to the 600 class and with more moto 3 machinery being available it should make it a great series and hopefully the title will stay on the non wasted stroke of the fence :)

in world championship motocross the battle to get 2 strokes in seem to be paying off as a few teams have declared intentions to run in MX1 this year on KTM and YZ 250s against the factory 450 4 stroke bikes.

http://twostrokemoto...-the-mx1-class/

is there any other major championships you know of that we can keep track of this year and support the 2 stroke riders?

and weve got wayne gardner at mallory park also :clap:

#30 Robin127

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 02:32

For two stroke blokes and really anyone who loves bike racing a forthcoming documentary:


Edited by Robin127, 12 April 2013 - 02:32.


#31 fastfitter

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:43

Thanks for the head-up on that :wave:

#32 fil2.8

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:07

For two stroke blokes and really anyone who loves bike racing a forthcoming documentary:



Yes , looks interesting , wonder how far back they go ....................................

#33 Russell Burrows

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:31

For two stroke blokes and really anyone who loves bike racing a forthcoming documentary:

Blimey, a doco around bike racing - who would have thought. Thanks for telling us.

#34 Tonka

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 22:28

For two stroke blokes and really anyone who loves bike racing a forthcoming documentary:



Sensational, count the broken bones stuff ?

There must have been over a dozen hi-sides in that clip, much of it repeated. Can't say I enjoy watching bike accidents - they turn my stomach and I feel every bump the riders take.




#35 rd500

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 20:53

just the old videovision footage but ill tell you dorna wont be happy with itv showing pre 2002 gp racing, according to them it never existed even when they owned it.

dont believe me, check out their "history" app.

as kenny roberts said to steve 'moto gp' parrish - "moto gp would be great if they got rid of all the 500 footage"

#36 fastfitter

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 22:13

Apologies to Tonka - Doohan and Chilli formation highsiding ....



#37 tonyed

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:24

I see from the Moto3 rules for 2014 that each team will be allocated a certain number of sealed engines from their elected (sorry paid in full) engine manufacturer and that when it has reached its' allotted mileage will be ripped out by a ‘mechanic’ (like garage ‘mechanics’ now who are only capable of changing components) and swapped for a new one, the old unit becoming deadweight for the team. At the end of the season the team can sell on the out of mileage units to the local scrap merchant or some other less high profile ‘national/club’ team.
Seems that there won’t be any incentive for the engine manufacturer to design any longetivity into the engine as it has fulfilled its’ function when the design mileage is used.
So here we have 10 grands worth of metal to take down the recycling dump.
Will Dorna provide recycling skips in the GP paddocks?
Seems the right way to go about reducing costs rather than rebuilding two stroke engines by real mechanics that can do more than ring pull an engine.
Four strokes do have their place in the world (lawn mowers, cars, etc) but it should not be in a racing motorcycle.
Honda seem hell bent on creating complication where none should exist and using up the worlds resources to support their own ‘religious’ fervor for 4 strokes. It’s time to wake up and rid the motorcycle world of this sectarian menace which is Honda.


#38 fil2.8

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:04

I see from the Moto3 rules for 2014 that each team will be allocated a certain number of sealed engines from their elected (sorry paid in full) engine manufacturer and that when it has reached its' allotted mileage will be ripped out by a ‘mechanic’ (like garage ‘mechanics’ now who are only capable of changing components) and swapped for a new one, the old unit becoming deadweight for the team. At the end of the season the team can sell on the out of mileage units to the local scrap merchant or some other less high profile ‘national/club’ team.
Seems that there won’t be any incentive for the engine manufacturer to design any longetivity into the engine as it has fulfilled its’ function when the design mileage is used.
So here we have 10 grands worth of metal to take down the recycling dump.
Will Dorna provide recycling skips in the GP paddocks?
Seems the right way to go about reducing costs rather than rebuilding two stroke engines by real mechanics that can do more than ring pull an engine.
Four strokes do have their place in the world (lawn mowers, cars, etc) but it should not be in a racing motorcycle.
Honda seem hell bent on creating complication where none should exist and using up the worlds resources to support their own ‘religious’ fervor for 4 strokes. It’s time to wake up and rid the motorcycle world of this sectarian menace which is Honda.



Hear , hear :up: :up: :wave:

#39 exclubracer

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 21:52

Hear , hear :up: :up: :wave:

Here, Here, even! :up: :up:  ;)

'Twas nice to see you at Darley, Phil :wave:

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#40 tonyed

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 05:51

Was watching MotoGP practice and qualifying last night (along with much more entertaining and much more informative commentary) 24 hour from Magny Cours and the speedway GP from Poland.

The Eurosport team were wetting their knickers over Casey Stoner II with their technical guru (twit@ Spalders or Spalders@twit) trying to explain the intricacies of Honda gearbox and how it saves time changing gear which gives Casey Marquez the advantage at this Texas F1 drag strip and how his will post graphs on his twitter account after to graphically demonstrate that the rider is only a hindrance to achieving a fast lap time.

Good lap times at the Bol D’or and the speedway appeared to rely more on rider skill than the amount of R and D time and money thrown at the project by engineering staff back in Japoland.

I gave up with the knicker wetters when Julian (Sandy is missing this week) uttered the words concerning Marc Stoners riding as brilliant enough to silence the commentary box (if only).

Perhaps if Dorna was serious about cost cutting and not just Hondas’ glove puppet MotoGP could move forward by ensuring that all teams use CRT bikes. Certainly Aleix Espargaró seems to hustle his bike round quickly enough without the use of the entire gamut of clever crap from the bright young things at Hamamatsu.


#41 TeeZed

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 22:32

A little Two-Stroke music anyone?

Yamaha, factory 4 cylinder, 125cc:



This was recorded today at Assen. ......turn up the sound.

Don

#42 rd500

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 23:43

another great story

http://twostrokemoto...x-triple-crown/

#43 rd500

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 23:55

have to put this one up from 2010, brainwashing and lies to sell the agenda, nobody on this forum seems to care anymore.

The technical revolution in MotoGP will be completed in 2012 when the current 125cc two-strokes are banished in favour of a 250cc four-stroke single-cylinder world championship called Moto3, MCN can reveal.

Discussions have been taking place for several weeks now on plans for the new class, which would end the two-stroke Grand Prix racing era for the first time since the world championship’s inception in 1949.

MCN sources confirmed the new class will not replicate the current 600cc four-stroke Moto2 class and be a controlled Honda engine, even though the Japanese factory patented a reverse single cylinder four-stroke last year, as was revealed in MCN.

MCN understands Honda is already working on a 250cc four-stroke single motor that has been fitted into a race RS125 chassis for initial testing at the Twin Ring Motegi circuit in Japan.

It’s understood that with minimal development work, the bike was 1.5s faster than a Grand Prix 125GP machine at the venue for the Japanese Grand Prix.

The Moto3 class will be multi-engine with prototype chassis and is designed to provide a cheap alternative to the current 125cc two-stroke format.

There are fears that the 125 class entry could be seriously impacted by the huge popularity of the new Moto2 class.

The 250cc two-stroke replacement series has a bumper entry of 40 bikes, but most 125 teams want to be part of the series because of the increased exposure.

A source said: “Some 125 teams want to be in Moto2 and some Moto2 teams are struggling with the budget to remain in the class. With Moto3 it will help create a healthy entry in both classes.”

The Japanese already have a domestic national series for motocross-based 250cc four-stroke cylinder engines in a road racing chassis.



#44 RC162

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 06:09

have to put this one up from 2010, brainwashing and lies to sell the agenda, nobody on this forum seems to care anymore.


Well I'm going to put my view on this old chestnut. I spent pretty much all my racing years on two strokes and I loved them and I still love them but you cannot simply say that everything prior to two strokes domination of racing was crap and everything is crap since. In a recent article on Peter Graves in CMM it told of grids for the 500's in the early nineties as low as 15 machines so there were times when 500 grids were crap due to the expense of running them. This shows nothing is new. The people with the power and the money have set the agenda and you can take it or leave it. To me a good race is a good race and it isn't crap because the bikes they are riding are four strokes and my respect for the riders of these bikes is the same as it was for the Rainey's and Schwantz's of this world who first came to my attention riding four strokes I seem to remember.

#45 Macca

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 07:45

In the early '90s the shortage of 500s on the grid was because there were no V4s available to buy and the factory bikes had outpaced the Honda RS500 and Suzuki RG500 so much that nobody bothered to enter them in GPs.

When Yamaha made 500cc V4 engines available to buy via the frame-makers ROC and Harris, grids became very healthy, and stayed that way until 4-strokes were mandated.

Paul M

#46 RC162

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 18:31

In the early '90s the shortage of 500s on the grid was because there were no V4s available to buy and the factory bikes had outpaced the Honda RS500 and Suzuki RG500 so much that nobody bothered to enter them in GPs.

When Yamaha made 500cc V4 engines available to buy via the frame-makers ROC and Harris, grids became very healthy, and stayed that way until 4-strokes were mandated.

Paul M


And it is Yamaha again who are making engines available next year to private teams.


#47 10kDA

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 14:03

Hi all,
Interesting thread - Former RD350 & H1 racer here, now totally disinterested (and have been since the advent of MotoGP) in top-level roadracing due to the equipment and corporate nature of the "show". Let's hope the movement toward restoring 2 strokes to their logical place in the scheme of competitive things can continue.
I would say that Schwantz came to national attention due to his performance in the Yamaha RZ350 contingency series rather than after Suzuki signed him as their Superbike rider, so, he burst upon the scene as a 2 stroke rider.
Chris


#48 RC162

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:51

Hi all,
Interesting thread - Former RD350 & H1 racer here, now totally disinterested (and have been since the advent of MotoGP) in top-level roadracing due to the equipment and corporate nature of the "show". Let's hope the movement toward restoring 2 strokes to their logical place in the scheme of competitive things can continue.
I would say that Schwantz came to national attention due to his performance in the Yamaha RZ350 contingency series rather than after Suzuki signed him as their Superbike rider, so, he burst upon the scene as a 2 stroke rider.
Chris


I think to most people in this country Rainey and Schwantz came to their attention when they rode in the Transatlantic meetings and in particular the wet Donington round. It was these rides that brought Schwantz to the attention of Barry Sheene who assisted him in getting a ride on a GP bike at Mallory and the rest they say is history.


#49 rd500

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 23:08

I think to most people in this country Rainey and Schwantz came to their attention when they rode in the Transatlantic meetings and in particular the wet Donington round. It was these rides that brought Schwantz to the attention of Barry Sheene who assisted him in getting a ride on a GP bike at Mallory and the rest they say is history.


I first knew of Rainey in the early 80s when he started to shine on the Kawasaki KR250 GP bike which a certain Mr Lawson had moved on from, then he was racing for Honda America in the F1 class on a RS500, as for Schwantz there were many mentions of his name here when he was riding production 2 strokes early in his road racing career, the biggest one i remember was when he finished in 3rd at the Daytona 100 in 1985 on an Yamaha RZ500 beating many bikes of more than twice the capacity.

Sorry forgot to mentions Raineys 250 GPyear of 1984, also did Kevin not do a few TTF1 rounds in 86.

Edited by rd500, 24 June 2013 - 23:12.


#50 JAW

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:00

Yeah, this topic is a bit of a sore point, since 2Ts are so glaringly obvious as a natural fit for race-bikes,

- even Casey Stoner is on record as stating he'd come back to G.P.s  - if they were unbanned/available..

 

& a recent 'Practical Sportsbikes' mag has a 2T feature in which Warren Willing states..

 

"The technology that came out of G.P.s was driven by the pursuit of high performance...

All of those principles are the same for a road bike today & the technology available makes it

all easier to manage."

 

I note that the Moto 2 lap record - at even a fast power track like Phillip Is - still lags behind the G.P 250 best.