Bathurst 1966 Prince Skylines
Started by
Martyn Hey
, Aug 05 2011 16:36
122 replies to this topic
#101
lyntonh
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Posted 21 September 2011 - 12:09
I was scouting around my Bathurst 1970 photos, & found this....
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#102
Ian G
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Posted 21 September 2011 - 23:34
Another great shot Lynton.
Nissan-Renault thinking of reviving Datsun name,link briefly mentions the problems Nissan had of gaining acceptance in the USA when they changed from Datsun.
Datsun Name Revived?
Nissan-Renault thinking of reviving Datsun name,link briefly mentions the problems Nissan had of gaining acceptance in the USA when they changed from Datsun.
Datsun Name Revived?
#103
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 September 2011 - 07:25
That one's running as an Improved car...
Wasn't that a question someone asked a while back?
He finished 14th behind Herb Taylor's EH in the preliminary race, didn't run in the big one.
Wasn't that a question someone asked a while back?
He finished 14th behind Herb Taylor's EH in the preliminary race, didn't run in the big one.
#104
seldo
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Posted 22 September 2011 - 14:00
...hehe...Lynton - you never cease to amaze me - you just keep pulling them out of a hat - You want a photo of xyz... ?I was scouting around my Bathurst 1970 photos, & found this....
Voila!
#105
Piquet959
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Posted 04 October 2011 - 10:39
In the early days of the resurgence of appendix J racing I actually raced a Prince Skyline GT.
Some of the things in this topic so far are true and some are well off the mark.
To get the car eligible for a log book I had to do a lot of research on the cars. In Australia there were essentially 3 models
S54Be2 this had triple carbs and a 4speed gear box
S54Be3 this had triple carbs and a 5 speed gear box.
S54Ae3 this had a single downdraft car by and a 4 speed gearbox.
On all cars either the 4th gear or the 5th gear were overdrive. From memory 0.77 for the 4speed and 0.84 fo the 5speed.
All carbys fitted to the BE2and the BE3 were 40 mm DCOE webers.
The cars were fairly well developed and appointed from the factory being fitted with twin spot calipers on the front, finned alloy drums on the rear, front and rear sway bays and a 99 litre fuel tank in the boot. With that size tank there wasn't much room for a lot of luggage! The Diff and gear box were ZF design manufactured under liscence by thr Prince Motor Company. The diff never gave me any problems but the gear box was a little bit light on. The engine was temperemental the rocker gear being the main weakness. The cylinder head was already a 12port design and flowed fairly well from the factory. The Quoted HP from the Factory was 127 HP. I was abl;e to extract a bit more but it really was on the limit of its designed HP from the factory. I suppose that I was able to get another 15 Hp over the factory specs. It was a fun car to drive and so different to all the others arround at the time. The biggest drawback of the car at the times that I was f=racint it was the lack of availability of spare parts and the lack of knowlege from engine builders and the like of the car and its peculiarities.
The cars were developed from the Prince 1500 4 cyl cars that were modified to accept the engine from the Pronce Gloria. The engine was re engineered with revised cylinder head, cam timing and rocker gear.
The Prince Motor Company developed the car to compete in the Second Japanese Grand Prix at Suzuka in 1964. To homogate the cars in the category that wanted the factory as a Touring Car the factory had to build 1000 identical units. When the factory went to webervto order 3000 carbies they were essentially told to go away as this exceeded their manufacture capacity. So they decided that they would homologate the car as a GT car requiring only 150 to be built and only 450 carbies. There were several Tuning Packages available for the cars that had different Camshafts and other things available including a close ratio 5 speed gear box available from the factory.
The cars qualified well and actually filled the first couple of grids. Other cars in the grid were a Porsche 904, Datsun Fairlady and Lotus Élan. The Porsche won the race and the Princes filled at least the next 4 places.
In Australia they were raced fairly extensively. I have a race report from the 1966 Sandown 6 hour race where the John Newmarch Prince did 3 hours and 5 minutes of the race before it stopped for it's first fuel stop.
Also from Mallala in the same year there is a photo of one on the front row of the grid next to Norm Beechey in his Nova.
In recent times while I was racing the car it was quite good power wise considering it was under 2000cc. The car was competitive against the Triumph 2000, the Volvos and just off the pace of the EH's. I regularly used to rev it to over 6000rpm. The lack of diff ratios was a killer at for example Phillip Island where the care was at max revs before the start finish line and thawed before you started down the hill where the revs would build up and I would have to feather the throttle to stop overreving it. A 4.444 ratio with 13" rims is a killer at a long circuit but at Winton it is a different matter. I've raced it at Sandown, Calder, Phillip Island, Winton, Mallala and at The Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide in the support category. It was a fun little car. but outgunned now by the much more developed cars.
Sadly, the lack of spares was the end of the car for racing so it sits in storage and comes out on the rare occasion for a display or when the urge for a thrill drive gets the better of me.
The Carlos Neats car from New Zealand is here in Melbourne. The car is actually an ex Prince factory race car. It is lovingly looked after and treasured by the current owner.
Regards
peter Sneddon
Some of the things in this topic so far are true and some are well off the mark.
To get the car eligible for a log book I had to do a lot of research on the cars. In Australia there were essentially 3 models
S54Be2 this had triple carbs and a 4speed gear box
S54Be3 this had triple carbs and a 5 speed gear box.
S54Ae3 this had a single downdraft car by and a 4 speed gearbox.
On all cars either the 4th gear or the 5th gear were overdrive. From memory 0.77 for the 4speed and 0.84 fo the 5speed.
All carbys fitted to the BE2and the BE3 were 40 mm DCOE webers.
The cars were fairly well developed and appointed from the factory being fitted with twin spot calipers on the front, finned alloy drums on the rear, front and rear sway bays and a 99 litre fuel tank in the boot. With that size tank there wasn't much room for a lot of luggage! The Diff and gear box were ZF design manufactured under liscence by thr Prince Motor Company. The diff never gave me any problems but the gear box was a little bit light on. The engine was temperemental the rocker gear being the main weakness. The cylinder head was already a 12port design and flowed fairly well from the factory. The Quoted HP from the Factory was 127 HP. I was abl;e to extract a bit more but it really was on the limit of its designed HP from the factory. I suppose that I was able to get another 15 Hp over the factory specs. It was a fun car to drive and so different to all the others arround at the time. The biggest drawback of the car at the times that I was f=racint it was the lack of availability of spare parts and the lack of knowlege from engine builders and the like of the car and its peculiarities.
The cars were developed from the Prince 1500 4 cyl cars that were modified to accept the engine from the Pronce Gloria. The engine was re engineered with revised cylinder head, cam timing and rocker gear.
The Prince Motor Company developed the car to compete in the Second Japanese Grand Prix at Suzuka in 1964. To homogate the cars in the category that wanted the factory as a Touring Car the factory had to build 1000 identical units. When the factory went to webervto order 3000 carbies they were essentially told to go away as this exceeded their manufacture capacity. So they decided that they would homologate the car as a GT car requiring only 150 to be built and only 450 carbies. There were several Tuning Packages available for the cars that had different Camshafts and other things available including a close ratio 5 speed gear box available from the factory.
The cars qualified well and actually filled the first couple of grids. Other cars in the grid were a Porsche 904, Datsun Fairlady and Lotus Élan. The Porsche won the race and the Princes filled at least the next 4 places.
In Australia they were raced fairly extensively. I have a race report from the 1966 Sandown 6 hour race where the John Newmarch Prince did 3 hours and 5 minutes of the race before it stopped for it's first fuel stop.
Also from Mallala in the same year there is a photo of one on the front row of the grid next to Norm Beechey in his Nova.
In recent times while I was racing the car it was quite good power wise considering it was under 2000cc. The car was competitive against the Triumph 2000, the Volvos and just off the pace of the EH's. I regularly used to rev it to over 6000rpm. The lack of diff ratios was a killer at for example Phillip Island where the care was at max revs before the start finish line and thawed before you started down the hill where the revs would build up and I would have to feather the throttle to stop overreving it. A 4.444 ratio with 13" rims is a killer at a long circuit but at Winton it is a different matter. I've raced it at Sandown, Calder, Phillip Island, Winton, Mallala and at The Australian Grand Prix in Adelaide in the support category. It was a fun little car. but outgunned now by the much more developed cars.
Sadly, the lack of spares was the end of the car for racing so it sits in storage and comes out on the rare occasion for a display or when the urge for a thrill drive gets the better of me.
The Carlos Neats car from New Zealand is here in Melbourne. The car is actually an ex Prince factory race car. It is lovingly looked after and treasured by the current owner.
Regards
peter Sneddon
Edited by Piquet959, 05 October 2011 - 05:53.
#106
Ray Bell
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Posted 04 October 2011 - 10:52
Thanks for your details, they represent a lot of research...
And thanks for reminding us that these things were indeed a thrill to drive!
And thanks for reminding us that these things were indeed a thrill to drive!
#107
Piquet959
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 05:41
A couple of things that I forgot to say in my initial post were about the technical aspects of these cars.
When they were built in Japan in the early 1960's technology was fairly thin on the ground. Just think of some of the early Nissan, Datsun cars they were essentially reworked products from other countries.
The Prince Gloria and Skyline GT were fairly advanced in their thinking and engineering. In saying that they also copied or built under liscence a lot of things from mainly European engineering. Later the Prince Motor company was purchased by the Nissan Motor Company. The Prince company would seem to have been technology rich but a bit cash strapped and the Nissan Motor Company the opposite.
The Prince Gloria was a big car and nowhere near as good in some respects as the Skyline. The Gloria came with a deDion rear suspension, so fairly sophisticated for a small company well away from Europe
TRhge prince 1500 was cut at the firewall and a Gussett was let in to the inner guards to accomodate the longer 6 cylinder engine. New Guards and a longer bonnet were made to suit the longer nose of the car after the engine was fitted.
They had the nickname in an article that I have of "The Wolf in the Sheeps clothing".
The Prince Skyline engine was a 1988cc engine, 75mm bore x75mm stroke, 6 cylinder, single overhead cam engine. It was a wet sleeve design. The engine as has been pointed out developed 127 hp. The engine was all cast iron so fairly heavy. The cylinder head was a 12 port design. The car came with split cast iron headers coupled to a twin exhaust system. So all the makings of a good touring car were there from the start. There are some weaknesses in the engine design particularly in relation to the sump design and the OHC rocker gear. The engine had 4 main bearings and the bearings are fairly wide and thick in comparison to the modern style of bearing. This creates aproblem as there are very few original sets around and there are very few that are interchangeable from other engines.
It was by road cars standards, in Australia at least, a fairly fast car. In 1964 it was capable of a bit over 110 mph in road going trim but must have been a handful on the narrow rims and the 5.60 x 13 cross ply tyres of the time!!!. The car came with a laminated windscreen, and good appointments such as decent bucket seats and a heater as standard. Remember this was in the days where a heater was optional in most cars!!
So consider that a road going EH Holden did just over 90 mph then the Prince was a good deal faster at 112 mph. In race trim mine has been radared at Phillip Iisland at 119 Mph but with better brakes and tyres than the original it felt fairly stable.
cheers
Peter Sneddon
When they were built in Japan in the early 1960's technology was fairly thin on the ground. Just think of some of the early Nissan, Datsun cars they were essentially reworked products from other countries.
The Prince Gloria and Skyline GT were fairly advanced in their thinking and engineering. In saying that they also copied or built under liscence a lot of things from mainly European engineering. Later the Prince Motor company was purchased by the Nissan Motor Company. The Prince company would seem to have been technology rich but a bit cash strapped and the Nissan Motor Company the opposite.
The Prince Gloria was a big car and nowhere near as good in some respects as the Skyline. The Gloria came with a deDion rear suspension, so fairly sophisticated for a small company well away from Europe
TRhge prince 1500 was cut at the firewall and a Gussett was let in to the inner guards to accomodate the longer 6 cylinder engine. New Guards and a longer bonnet were made to suit the longer nose of the car after the engine was fitted.
They had the nickname in an article that I have of "The Wolf in the Sheeps clothing".
The Prince Skyline engine was a 1988cc engine, 75mm bore x75mm stroke, 6 cylinder, single overhead cam engine. It was a wet sleeve design. The engine as has been pointed out developed 127 hp. The engine was all cast iron so fairly heavy. The cylinder head was a 12 port design. The car came with split cast iron headers coupled to a twin exhaust system. So all the makings of a good touring car were there from the start. There are some weaknesses in the engine design particularly in relation to the sump design and the OHC rocker gear. The engine had 4 main bearings and the bearings are fairly wide and thick in comparison to the modern style of bearing. This creates aproblem as there are very few original sets around and there are very few that are interchangeable from other engines.
It was by road cars standards, in Australia at least, a fairly fast car. In 1964 it was capable of a bit over 110 mph in road going trim but must have been a handful on the narrow rims and the 5.60 x 13 cross ply tyres of the time!!!. The car came with a laminated windscreen, and good appointments such as decent bucket seats and a heater as standard. Remember this was in the days where a heater was optional in most cars!!
So consider that a road going EH Holden did just over 90 mph then the Prince was a good deal faster at 112 mph. In race trim mine has been radared at Phillip Iisland at 119 Mph but with better brakes and tyres than the original it felt fairly stable.
cheers
Peter Sneddon
Edited by Piquet959, 05 October 2011 - 06:02.
#108
Ray Bell
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 10:20
Not many would have ever been driven on crossplies...
Radials were commonplace on any kind of performance car in Australia by the time the Skyline GT came out. Michelin X, Pirelli Cinturato and the locally-made Olympic GT radial were the most common, but Dunlop also had radials readily available.
Radials were commonplace on any kind of performance car in Australia by the time the Skyline GT came out. Michelin X, Pirelli Cinturato and the locally-made Olympic GT radial were the most common, but Dunlop also had radials readily available.
#109
Ian G
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 10:35
In the early days of the resurgence of appendix J racing I actually raced a Prince Skyline GT.
Regards
peter Sneddon
Thanks for all the Info. Peter,i'm glad the triple carby version with the 4 speed gearbox actually has a model number.
Do you know what model raced at Bathurst in 1967?
#110
PS30-SB
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 12:22
When they were built in Japan in the early 1960's technology was fairly thin on the ground. Just think of some of the early Nissan, Datsun cars they were essentially reworked products from other countries.
The Prince Gloria and Skyline GT were fairly advanced in their thinking and engineering. In saying that they also copied or built under liscence a lot of things from mainly European engineering. Later the Prince Motor company was purchased by the Nissan Motor Company. The Prince company would seem to have been technology rich but a bit cash strapped and the Nissan Motor Company the opposite.
I find it a bit too much of a generalisation to say that ".....in Japan in the early 1960s technology was fairly thin on the ground." For example, in that "early 1960s" period both Prince and Nissan were engaged in rocket research in conjunction with Tokyo University's Sagamihara aeronautics and science campus ( later to become ISAS ). Even before the end of the previous decade they had got one of their 'Kappa' sounding rockets up to a height of 200km. By the mid Sixties they were launching satellites.
Painting Nissan as the tech poor but strong Ying to the tech rich but cash poor Prince's Yang is also a bit too much of a simplification. Nissan was already a giant, struggling to keep up both with it's own rapid expansion and the expansion of the Japanese economy, but was by no means technology poor, and was forging ahead with its own designs. Many of these were already as good as - or better than - those of their competitors. Prince was indeed a class act, and having been formed from the DNA of more than one aircraft manufacturing concern some of their designers and engineers were perhaps a little bit wasted in working on road transport. They had been living above their means for some time before the Japanese trade ministry actually forced a merger ( 'Kyu Shu Gappei' ) with Nissan. No money changed hands. Nobody was 'bought' or 'sold'. There was however a certain amount of resentment amongst some of the former Prince employees, and the ripples caused in the merger are still visible even today.
#111
seldo
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 12:49
Well....I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I recall driving these when new and being utterly deflated and disappointed.Thanks for your details, they represent a lot of research...
And thanks for reminding us that these things were indeed a thrill to drive!
After the initial Oohs and Ahhs when the bonnet was opened to see the Webers nestled in there and the twin headers, and the front discs and the 4/5speed box, and then to drive it ...... very disappointing. Sadly, but really so mild and.....ermmm....white-goods. Just bland. I do recall trying really hard to get some life out of one along Darling Point Rd at Rushcutter's Bay in Sydney and ended up spinning it through 360 and parking neatly in a convenient kerbside spot....Once it got out of shape there wasn't a lot of forgiveness, and since that was maybe the first of probably less than a dozen spins in my life, I do recall it well...
#112
PS30-SB
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 14:26
...... very disappointing. Sadly, but really so mild and.....ermmm....white-goods. Just bland.
Sorry, but the "white goods" comment perhaps tells us more about you than it does about the car.
I'd like to know what kind of rocket ship revelation of a car you were comparing it to at the time ( what was your daily transport? ). Presumably you only ate caviar and Lobster Thermidore in those days, and were suffering from culture shock after taking a bite out of an automotive cornish pasty?
#113
Dick Willis
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 20:20
You're a bit hard on it Seldo, although cars from 40 years ago don't drive as well as today's cars, in the late 60's Skyline GT's were on a par with their contemporaries. I owned one for about 10 years from 1971, ran it in hillclimbs, sprints, lap dashes and did plenty of fast road trips in it, I thought it was a beaut car which never did anything unpredictable and, being a new car dealer at the time I had plenty to compare it with.
When I finally parted with it, for some misguided reason I swapped it for a Cooper S, what a disappointment ! I couldn't wait to get rid of it.
When I finally parted with it, for some misguided reason I swapped it for a Cooper S, what a disappointment ! I couldn't wait to get rid of it.
#114
Ray Bell
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 20:36
If I can butt in... and he was commenting on my post...
David was driving Volvos at the time, both road and track. So his comparison in the handling stakes are probably quite correct, but I'm sure that those coming from the EJ Holden direction found them exciting. Tom Ellery certainly enjoyed his for a long time, in fact I think he bought a second one when the 5-speed box came out.
I'll point out, too, that in 1966 I included a Morris Minor and a Simca in my short list of road cars.
David was driving Volvos at the time, both road and track. So his comparison in the handling stakes are probably quite correct, but I'm sure that those coming from the EJ Holden direction found them exciting. Tom Ellery certainly enjoyed his for a long time, in fact I think he bought a second one when the 5-speed box came out.
I'll point out, too, that in 1966 I included a Morris Minor and a Simca in my short list of road cars.
#115
seldo
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Posted 06 October 2011 - 01:09
My daily fare at the time was a much modified Volvo 122S that would have eaten the Skyline for breakfast on every front. I also regularly drove a mate's EH S4 which was also a much better car to drive.Sorry, but the "white goods" comment perhaps tells us more about you than it does about the car.
I'd like to know what kind of rocket ship revelation of a car you were comparing it to at the time ( what was your daily transport? ). Presumably you only ate caviar and Lobster Thermidore in those days, and were suffering from culture shock after taking a bite out of an automotive cornish pasty?
But, I must admit that I was working at a prestige car outlet that enabled/required me to drive everything from Ferraris/Maseratis/Jensen/Lambo/Jag/Benz/Rolls/ etc right down to Lancias, Minis, MGs on a daily basis, which gave me a very broad appreciation and experience of performance and sporting cars.
But, none the less, I still recall that I was distinctly disappointed. Not because it wasn't a rocket-ship - I'd driven and enjoyed many much slower cars - but more that it didn't seem to deliver on its promised potential. I had a similar feeling the first time I was rung by an excited Holden Dealer Principal, to come and try the fantastic new Holden HQ SS - all 253V8 4speed muscle.... Same bland, robbed feeling...
I don't mean to offend, but just one man's experience and opinion - and each to their own...
Edited by seldo, 06 October 2011 - 01:19.
#116
Piquet959
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Posted 06 October 2011 - 07:00
Hi guys after being on many bbs I am finally learning not to take offense.
My generalizations were just that if one was to compare the Nissan/datsun cars of the early 1960's as in the bluebird for example and the shovel nose corona to the prince marque there is a vast difference in the technology.
One question for seldo? Are you David Seldon the racer from Oran park fame? If you are I was there the day that you had a tangle with Moffatt in the Brut33 Mustang at BP.
Coming to a prince from a Volvo would have been a definite step back. On the track in Group Nb spec there wasn't much difference in the lap times of the cars. I can only talk about Sandown where George Opoczynski and I were only a couple of tenths apart. He wa always a bit quicker than me at P.I. But that was where I'd run out of revs.
Cheers
Peter
My generalizations were just that if one was to compare the Nissan/datsun cars of the early 1960's as in the bluebird for example and the shovel nose corona to the prince marque there is a vast difference in the technology.
One question for seldo? Are you David Seldon the racer from Oran park fame? If you are I was there the day that you had a tangle with Moffatt in the Brut33 Mustang at BP.
Coming to a prince from a Volvo would have been a definite step back. On the track in Group Nb spec there wasn't much difference in the lap times of the cars. I can only talk about Sandown where George Opoczynski and I were only a couple of tenths apart. He wa always a bit quicker than me at P.I. But that was where I'd run out of revs.
Cheers
Peter
#117
PS30-SB
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Posted 06 October 2011 - 08:39
Hi guys after being on many bbs I am finally learning not to take offense.
What would you have taken "offense" at, anyway? I don't think anyone's being intentionally rude?
My generalizations were just that if one was to compare the Nissan/datsun cars of the early 1960's as in the bluebird for example and the shovel nose corona to the prince marque there is a vast difference in the technology.
But why would you single out a budget sector pair like the Bluebird and Corona and compare them to the whole Prince marque? It's clearly not a fair comparison. In equally unfair reply I could pitch the H130 Nissan Cedric Special Six against a T640 Prince Homer pickup truck.
It's wrong to paint the pre-merger Nissan as some kind of peanut-brained dinosaur, 'saved' by blue blooded Prince. Both companies had their faults, but those faults were all but cancelled out by the merger and it was a match made in heaven. I'm a Prince fan, but the 'Prince' product I own and care for has 'Nissan' written large on it.....
#118
PS30-SB
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Posted 06 October 2011 - 08:58
But, none the less, I still recall that I was distinctly disappointed. Not because it wasn't a rocket-ship - I'd driven and enjoyed many much slower cars - but more that it didn't seem to deliver on its promised potential.
I think it's quite possible that the Prince engineers would have told you that you were expecting too much, and that they would recommend you drove an S50D-2 or an S57D instead. The S54B-II and S54B-III were typical afterthought homologation specials; compromises almost by definition. They did the job they were designed, engineered - and sold - to do. That job was not necessarily to be a good road car.
Wind forward just a few years to 1968, and the PGC10 Skyline GT-R would be a much fairer subject to judge the ( ex ) Prince engineers by.
#119
Piquet959
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Posted 06 October 2011 - 10:22
If that photograph of the Bailey/Hcks car in the posting #82 above is from 1967 then it is a Be2, triple carby 4 speed transmission.
The way to tell the cars apart externally is the Be2 had a vertical ribbed grille and the Be3 & the Ae3 had a different design and was essentially horizontal ribs.
The Be3 and Ae3 cars had some additional interior appointments such as flow through ventilation and better seating.
There are examples of each model of the S54 range and a couple of Glorias here in Melbourne (Australia).
To PS30-SB if you have a later model GTR with the S20 engine and it's not in japan you have a fairly rare car. Even those cars which clearly had Nissan badges on them still had the distinctive big round taillights, the Nardi style steering wheel with the stylised P for Prince in the centre of the horn button.
I was looking for one to race in the Group Nc (1964-1972) historic category but (a) couldn't find one and (b) couldn't race it if I had found it as they were not raced in the period in Australia. It would have been a real weapon in the 1600-2000cc class against BM 2002.
Cheers
Peter
The way to tell the cars apart externally is the Be2 had a vertical ribbed grille and the Be3 & the Ae3 had a different design and was essentially horizontal ribs.
The Be3 and Ae3 cars had some additional interior appointments such as flow through ventilation and better seating.
There are examples of each model of the S54 range and a couple of Glorias here in Melbourne (Australia).
To PS30-SB if you have a later model GTR with the S20 engine and it's not in japan you have a fairly rare car. Even those cars which clearly had Nissan badges on them still had the distinctive big round taillights, the Nardi style steering wheel with the stylised P for Prince in the centre of the horn button.
I was looking for one to race in the Group Nc (1964-1972) historic category but (a) couldn't find one and (b) couldn't race it if I had found it as they were not raced in the period in Australia. It would have been a real weapon in the 1600-2000cc class against BM 2002.
Cheers
Peter
Edited by Piquet959, 06 October 2011 - 11:39.
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#120
seldo
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Posted 06 October 2011 - 10:26
Whoa guys...Whoa! Don't get me wrong - I think for their day they were, or at least on paper, a pretty sophisticated high-spec touring car. But that's my whole point - I felt that despite their specs and appearances, to me, they simply disappointed when it came to real life. Even at the time, I'd driven heaps of other cars that were a damn sight more interesting to drive.
To give you a few examples in the same category of under 2 litre touring car...( and I know already this is going to bring howls of derision...)
Alfa GTV/Berlina
Lancia Beta/Flavia/Fulvia
Volvo 123 GT
Ford Cortina GT/ Lotus
Cooper S
BMW 1800/2000/2002
Renault R8 Gordini
Peugeot 504 Ti etc
These are just some I can think of from the top of my head. Now, I'm not necessarily suggesting that all or any of them would be quicker around a race-track out of the box, but bear in mind that with the Skyline there wasn't a huge amount of up-side potential since it had all already been done, so it was seen to be disappointing. If you took any one of the above and spent $1000, in the money of the day, you would have car that would mostly hand the Skyline its ar$e on a platter.
Of course to some, the fact that it did have all that gear standard made it all the more desirable, but even though it did, I still found it to be very Ho Hum...
As I said - just one man's opinion...
Oh...and Seldon....never heard of him...;)
To give you a few examples in the same category of under 2 litre touring car...( and I know already this is going to bring howls of derision...)
Alfa GTV/Berlina
Lancia Beta/Flavia/Fulvia
Volvo 123 GT
Ford Cortina GT/ Lotus
Cooper S
BMW 1800/2000/2002
Renault R8 Gordini
Peugeot 504 Ti etc
These are just some I can think of from the top of my head. Now, I'm not necessarily suggesting that all or any of them would be quicker around a race-track out of the box, but bear in mind that with the Skyline there wasn't a huge amount of up-side potential since it had all already been done, so it was seen to be disappointing. If you took any one of the above and spent $1000, in the money of the day, you would have car that would mostly hand the Skyline its ar$e on a platter.
Of course to some, the fact that it did have all that gear standard made it all the more desirable, but even though it did, I still found it to be very Ho Hum...
As I said - just one man's opinion...
Oh...and Seldon....never heard of him...;)
Edited by seldo, 06 October 2011 - 10:28.
#121
PS30-SB
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- 219 posts
- Joined: October 07
Member
Posted 06 October 2011 - 11:38
To Ps 30 if you have a later model GTR with the S20 engine and it's not in japan you have a fairly rare car. Even those cars which clearly had Nissan badges on them still had the distinctive big round taillights, the Nardi style steering wheel with the stylised P for prince in the centre of the
The (ex) Prince engineers were very proud of their heritage and didn't really want to let go. Even so, the C10 series didn't have the word 'Prince' written on it, and that stylised 'P' logo on the steering wheel boss was actually a combined 'N' for Nissan and 'P' for Prince, as seen on the noses of the Nissan-badged R380-series sports racing cars.
C10-series Skyline rear lights were all oblong. They didn't return to the round - 'marui' - tail lamps until the following C110-series of late 1972.
#122
Ian G
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- 1,395 posts
- Joined: July 09
Member
Posted 06 October 2011 - 22:40
If that photograph of the Bailey/Hcks car in the posting #82 above is from 1967 then it is a Be2, triple carby 4 speed transmission.
The way to tell the cars apart externally is the Be2 had a vertical ribbed grille and the Be3 & the Ae3 had a different design and was essentially horizontal ribs.
The Be3 and Ae3 cars had some additional interior appointments such as flow through ventilation and better seating.
Cheers
Peter
Thats what i've been told,they were the 4 speed variety,why they didn't run the 5 speed is strange as they were a similar price.(AFAIK).
Whoa guys...Whoa! Don't get me wrong - I think for their day they were, or at least on paper, a pretty sophisticated high-spec touring car. But that's my whole point - I felt that despite their specs and appearances, to me, they simply disappointed when it came to real life. Even at the time, I'd driven heaps of other cars that were a damn sight more interesting to drive.
FWIW i agree 100% David,i liked them as a car,they had character and fun to drive at road speeds but gee,there were a lot better sporty type cars on the market for similar money.
#123
Piquet959
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- 127 posts
- Joined: September 11
Member
Posted 07 October 2011 - 01:43
One reason could be that there are some body differences between the two models that would have been hard to change and at the sometime the differences easily noticed if the 5 speed was put in the early model.
Also these cars ran as series production cars at the time so a certain number had to be sold by the cut off date, if my memory is correct, and maybe the required number of Be3 had not been sold.
It's probably all lost in the mist of time by now
Also these cars ran as series production cars at the time so a certain number had to be sold by the cut off date, if my memory is correct, and maybe the required number of Be3 had not been sold.
It's probably all lost in the mist of time by now
