17 replies to this topic

[Formula Once]

There seems to be varying reports on when John Surtees switched back to using a Mk2 Lola T70 instead of a Mk3 during the 1967 Can-Am series. Some suggest he only did race a Mk2 again in the final round at Las Vegas, while others claim he did so from round 5 onwards or even round 4. Does anyone know more? Thanks!

[kayemod]

Surtees started the 67 CanAm season with a Lola T70 Mk 3B, but didn't do to well with it, complaining constantly about the handling. For round 4 at Laguna Seca, he switched to the Mk 2 he'd won the series with the previous year, but didn't do much better at first, the show had moved on. I'm pretty sure that he stuck with his earlier car for the rest of the season, meaning Riverside and Las Vegas, gradually tweaking it to get the best out of the latest wider Firestones, but some including Pete Lyons definitive book, have him in a 3B for both, which I'm pretty sure is wrong. Certainly the car he used to win the last race of the 67 season was the Mk 2 he'd used to win the series in 66, no doubt at all about that. John said that development had made it better than ever, and much better than the supposedly improved Lola 3B.

[Formula Once]

Surtees started the 67 CanAm season with a Lola T70 Mk 3B, but didn't do to well with it, complaining constantly about the handling. For round 4 at Laguna Seca, he switched to the Mk 2 he'd won the series with the previous year, but didn't do much better at first, the show had moved on. I'm pretty sure that he stuck with his earlier car for the rest of the season, meaning Riverside and Las Vegas, gradually tweaking it to get the best out of the latest wider Firestones, but some including Pete Lyons definitive book, have him in a 3B for both, which I'm pretty sure is wrong. Certainly the car he used to win the last race of the 67 season was the Mk 2 he'd used to win the series in 66, no doubt at all about that. John said that development had made it better than ever, and much better than the supposedly improved Lola 3B.

Thanks Kaymod. Period reports do claim that Surtees only switched to the Mk2 (the same chassis with which he won the last two rounds of 1966) before the final round of 1967, there is indeed no doubt about that. Its only because of some other (internet) sources claiming he did drive a Mk2 in 1967 from round 4 or 5 onwards that I became curious, although I tend to doubt Pete Lyons being wrong about anything Can-Am.

[kayemod]

...although I tend to doubt Pete Lyons being wrong about anything Can-Am.

It's probably just a typo that slipped through proofreading, but Pete Lyons, normally just about the last man on earth I'd question on anything to do with CanAm, says correctly that Surtees raced a T70 Mk2 at Laguna Seca, Riverside and Las Vegas, but in the results section at the back of his book Can Am, has him in a T70 3B for all three races, which is just plain wrong. I blame the printers of course, which is probably what TNF member Pete will do if he sees this...

[Formula Once]

It's probably just a typo that slipped through proofreading, but Pete Lyons, normally just about the last man on earth I'd question on anything to do with CanAm, says correctly that Surtees raced a T70 Mk2 at Laguna Seca, Riverside and Las Vegas, but in the results section at the back of his book Can Am, has him in a T70 3B for all three races, which is just plain wrong. I blame the printers of course, which is probably what TNF member Pete will do if he sees this...

I did some more research Rob, and Ray Wardell (in the wonderful book Tales from the Toolbox) mentions Surtees returning to an old Mk2 for the final round at Las Vegas in 1967, Wardell (one of the two mechanics on the car then) telling about how Surtees had the car taken out of storage in LA and prepared in two weeks time for Vegas. Period reports about round 5 (Riverside) mention Surtees racing Mk3 there (and still suffering from its poor handling), while reports on Las Vegas specficially mention him returning to his old Mk2, the very car (SL71/43) with which he had won the same race a year earlier. So just maybe John really did just Vegas with an Mk2 that year.

[Larry Fulhorst]

At the fourth race at Laguna he tried a second Mk3B. He still wasn't happy and had crash damage on it in the race. At the fifth race at Riverside is when he got back his 1966 car from Carl Haas' showroom. He ran it in the last two races, winning at Las Vegas on the last lap when Donohue ran out of gas.

[kayemod]

At the fourth race at Laguna he tried a second Mk3B. He still wasn't happy and had crash damage on it in the race.

Not according to Pete, though a second 3B might have been tried in practice. Can Am who has him in his resurrected 1966 championship-winning 2B for Laguna Seca, getting it up to sixth but crashing into Lothar Motschenbacher in the race. In the results section though, Pete wrongly has Surtees in a 3B for that race, as I said earlier, probably a typo, but plainly wrong.

[Formula Once]

Thanks Larry and Rob, I am still confused a bit as there are no hard facts to correct for example Ray Wardells claim. I was in touch with Pete about this and he suggested to contact John Starkey, but in his book about Lola sportscars I found many mistakes on the Surtees T70 Mk2 alone to be honest. Here is a link about round 4 1967 and there is in fact a picture of Surtees' Lola. Could one tell more from that?

http://www.imca-slot...ANAM 1967-4.htm

[Formula Once]

While here's the Surtees Mk3 being advertised claiming it did rounds 4 and 5 in 1967...

http://forsale.class...o...=20094&d=26

[kayemod]

While here's the Surtees Mk3 being advertised claiming it did rounds 4 and 5 in 1967...

http://forsale.class...o...=20094&d=26

It may well have been brought up to Mk3 spec in some areas, I'm not really a Lola expert, but surely that's a Mk2?

[Wouter Melissen]

While here's the Surtees Mk3 being advertised claiming it did rounds 4 and 5 in 1967...

http://forsale.class...o...=20094&d=26

I have that one down as SL75/123, making it one of the four Mk3B Spyders.

[kayemod]

I have that one down as SL75/123, making it one of the four Mk3B Spyders.

Wearing a Mk 2 body?

[Larry Fulhorst]

Not according to Pete, though a second 3B might have been tried in practice. Can Am who has him in his resurrected 1966 championship-winning 2B for Laguna Seca, getting it up to sixth but crashing into Lothar Motschenbacher in the race. In the results section though, Pete wrongly has Surtees in a 3B for that race, as I said earlier, probably a typo, but plainly wrong.

The photo of the crash in the race shows the car with a Mk3B nose (no headlights). According to the Racing Sports Cars site. His first 3B was SL75/123 used in the first three races. At Laguna a new 3B number is listed SL75/125. At Riverside and Las Vegas he is listed in the Mk2 - SL/71/43.

[Larry Fulhorst]

Wearing a Mk 2 body?

The Mk3Bs had no head lights in the nose (Surtees, Donohue and Gurney). The Mk3s had head lights (Revson and Motschenbacher). The photo in the ad is a Mk3 (with head lights) nose.

[Formula Once]

The photo of the crash in the race shows the car with a Mk3B nose (no headlights). According to the Racing Sports Cars site. His first 3B was SL75/123 used in the first three races. At Laguna a new 3B number is listed SL75/125. At Riverside and Las Vegas he is listed in the Mk2 - SL/71/43.

I know Larry, but that (great) site is not always correct I am affraid and unfortunately there is no picture included of Surtees at Riverside.

[kayemod]

The Mk3Bs had no head lights in the nose (Surtees, Donohue and Gurney). The Mk3s had head lights (Revson and Motschenbacher). The photo in the ad is a Mk3 (with head lights) nose.

Many Lola body parts were interchangeable, a Mk3 body could be fitted to a 3B and vice versa, some coupé parts would fit a spyder etc. Not disagreeing with what you say, but at Specialised Mouldings we made far more bodies with lights than without, and I don't think that lights/no lights is a 100% reliable guide, especially some time after cars had left the factory.

[SCHKEE T332]

I have a file on each of the Surtees Lola T70s. There were at least 6 of them and possibly 7 if he ran two MK IIIb spyders.
SL70/1, SL71/16, SL71/17, SL71/43, SL71/48, SL75/123.

Of these he ran, in the Can Am, 17 until he crashed it, 43 until 17 was repaired, and 123 until he could no longer deal with making the suspension geometry work.
The original question was when did he revert to his old Can Am Spyder,and
for the life of me I can't remember. My files are on the other side of the country
and I am in a motel room with this phone instead of my laptop.
The difference in the MKIIIB spyder was the length of the upper A arms and the angle at which the steering rod was inserted into the front hub carrier (18 vs 30 degrees from memory- oh to have my files )! The changes allowed bigger brakes, wider wheel but caused bump and ovesteer.
How I identify Surtees cars in photos is for instance by the finish of the roll bar (nickeled or painted gray) and the headlights fitted or not fitted
really do not say much especially these days. The plumbing for the engine is very telling though. Which size wheels/tires fit is telling. Note that the car for sale has 11" front wheels which would never fit a MKII.
The picture from the slot car site is a MKIIIB I think but for sure it is not 17.
17 had the rear wheel wells cut out, not the fronts.

I look forward to being reunited with my files so as to try to help answer your question. The swapping of chassis plates by everyone back then does not help matters today either.

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 09 August 2011 - 06:37.

[Formula Once]

I look forward to being reunited with my files so as to try to help answer your question.

I look forward to it too! Thank you already!

PS I sent you a PM