Jump to content


Photo

Some hard numbers on the Atom V-8


  • Please log in to reply
88 replies to this topic

#1 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 1,358 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 10 August 2011 - 08:12

Autocar has done its full test routine on the Ariel Atom V-8

http://www.autocar.c...Atom-V8/258555/

Nice to see some hard data on this car which may be useful as reference for any builders here.

the hardest number is the price at £150K or $250K. However I suspect it needs that price to turn a profit with only 25 made.

Advertisement

#2 bigleagueslider

bigleagueslider
  • Member

  • 837 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 13 August 2011 - 00:36

mariner,

the Ariel Atom V8 looks like lots of fun to drive, but as for "bang for the buck" I think it falls a bit short. Part of what would make it fun to drive is its simplicity. But that lack of refinement is also a major shortcoming for anything other than joyrides in perfect weather. For the same money as the Atom V8, you can buy a slightly used Ferrari, Lambo or new Corvette ZR1 with similar performance, a roof, doors and A/C.

Of course, as you noted, the best approach to obtaining your own true supercar without spending several years' salary, is to design and build your own!

slider

#3 HaydenFan

HaydenFan
  • Member

  • 2,044 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 August 2011 - 00:52

I'd still buy it over a Ferrari/Lambo and any mass built sports car. It's different. I don't think a Ferrari actually turns heads anymore. Passed a 430 on the road this morning and if I didn't know it was a Ferrari I'd not have looked in the mirror. I looked liked the Hyundai I passed a few miles earlier. But the Atom. Hell, I'd have to pull over and catch my breath at the sight of it.

Agreed on the building a car yourself. Not really agreeing with the designing part, but you can buy a car like a 90's Camaro, or a late 80's M3, and that will set you back maybe 7-8 thousand USD at the most. And for another 20-30, you could invest in the engine, the suspension, put in a sequential gearbox, without any real major technical abilities. And if you have skill with fiberclass, or metal work, you could create something stellar for low cost and good downforce numbers. Or spend a little and invest in carbon fiber to shed the weight.

You could for under 50 thousand USD, build a car that could run toe to toe with the Veyron.

Top Geared showed with the Caterham RS500 that for around 40 thousand pounds you could buy a car that could run with the Bugatti.

#4 bigleagueslider

bigleagueslider
  • Member

  • 837 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 13 August 2011 - 02:31

......Agreed on the building a car yourself. Not really agreeing with the designing part..... You could for under 50 thousand USD, build a car that could run toe to toe with the Veyron.


HaydenFan,

If you're going to build a car yourself like the Ariel Atom V8, that can go two or three times the legal speed limit, you had better understand the design and engineering issues involved. At least if you want to live much past your first test drive......

Besides, it is way more satisfying to spend a couple years designing and building something entirely your own, than it is to simply "hot rod" an existing car. Taking the time to learn all of the processes involved in making a car from scratch (ie. fabricating, welding, machining, fiberglass body work, wiring, painting, suspension design, chassis structural design, aerodynamics, etc.) would be a great learning experience. While it might seem intimidating at first to the average person, as long as you take the time to learn to do each step right, anyone can achieve good results. Learning to do things on your own is now easier than ever with access to the internet.

You can build a 2 seat Cr-Mo steel tube space frame chassis, with a pushrod/rocker arm, double A-arm suspension using 2-way adjustable coil-over dampeners and driver adjustable roll bars, a fiberglass body with an underwing, powered by a mid-mounted 500hp Chevy V8 crate motor and a 5-speed Quaife sequential transaxel, stopped by 6 piston Brembo brake calipers and 14 inch rotors with driver-adjustable brake bias, which weighs less than 1800 lbs, all for much less than $50K.

Of course, if you live in sunny southern California like I do, not having a roof is no big deal. But if you live someplace rainy like the UK, not having a roof is more of an issue.

slider


#5 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 13 August 2011 - 03:12

While there's no argument that they Veyron is foolishly expensive for what it is, it seems to me that TopGear some years ago rolled out something like a 5:1 cost to sales price - $5m each in costs. $5m alone buys a lot Knowledge and excellence. You don't need to know how to read the ECM maps, you don't need to understand the wiring, worry about breaking half-shafts during launch, spitting bottom end parts all over the highway...it's as docile and happy as the Taurus your mom drives, until you ask it to perform. Then it performs without hesitation, without pause and without complaint. Drive it your local high-speed track, pick up mom and grab some milk at the corner store on the way home. Fastest? Nope. Best short-track speed? Nope. Best family car? Nope. It is however a 1000 hp car that you could get in and drive...anywhere. That's pretty cool and few home-built specials will ever come close to imagining that, much less achieving it.

I'm not sure how many cars that $5m figure is defined around - no idea what they spent to bring that thing to life.

#6 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 13 August 2011 - 05:27

You can build a 2 seat Cr-Mo steel tube space frame chassis, with a pushrod/rocker arm, double A-arm suspension using 2-way adjustable coil-over dampeners and driver adjustable roll bars, a fiberglass body with an underwing, powered by a mid-mounted 500hp Chevy V8 crate motor and a 5-speed Quaife sequential transaxel, stopped by 6 piston Brembo brake calipers and 14 inch rotors with driver-adjustable brake bias, which weighs less than 1800 lbs, all for much less than $50K.


Or you could simply buy a Deronda and be far more comfortable and faster than the Atom. Engine life would be 10 times longer in the Deronda (LS2 or LS7 Chev) and compare the $100K gearbox against a $5K Porsche G50 ..... shame it's so ugly!

http://www.jaylenosg...ts-car/1031321/

http://www.google.co...w...sa=N&tab=wv

Comparing a Caterham with a Veyron is just stupid, the cars are totally different in concept and target parameters.


#7 kikiturbo2

kikiturbo2
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 13 August 2011 - 06:45

mariner,

the Ariel Atom V8 looks like lots of fun to drive, but as for "bang for the buck" I think it falls a bit short. Part of what would make it fun to drive is its simplicity. But that lack of refinement is also a major shortcoming for anything other than joyrides in perfect weather. For the same money as the Atom V8, you can buy a slightly used Ferrari, Lambo or new Corvette ZR1 with similar performance, a roof, doors and A/C.

Of course, as you noted, the best approach to obtaining your own true supercar without spending several years' salary, is to design and build your own!

slider



it is hard to compare cars without knowing the intended use or the roads they are going to be driven on.. ... I'll go out on a limb saying that while a ferrari/ZR1/Lambo might be great on a wide sweeping open road, a cheaper 4x4 rally homologation special with a bit of remaping will be more fun + fast as or faster on a bumpy B road that I usually drive on and more practical to boot..
On the other hand, if track work is the intended use... then there is no need to spend your time building something yourself (as some of us do :) ), go out and buy a used Radical / Formula Ford / Formula Renault / etc... that is best bang for the buck being huge fun + fast as hell....

I have had the pleasure of driving the Atom, in UK 2 litre supercharged spec (honda engine) and it is scarily fast in a straight line, up to about 160 km/h, after that the air resistance makes it slower than my EVO... However, it is really well sorted in the steering / brake feel department, and is quite a bit of fun to drive... At the same time, a Caterham with a Kawasaki bike engine and 2/3 the power is faster on the track, for about half the money.. :)

#8 Powersteer

Powersteer
  • Member

  • 2,460 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 13 August 2011 - 07:12

People would pay for such a car probably because when its being used for what it is it could deliver. I mean, seems that the car is nearly a light switch.

A prod of throttle adds 10mph or 20mph; lift off and it quickly decelerates.

A car that you could not have fun in the rain hardly justifies the price but still, its not a case of getting a cage and dumping a big 500hp V8 as well because the Atom is very small and packing 500hp would be an experience that can't be found anywhere on anything with two seats. The engine as well, 10,500 rpm is a riot, I'd dump a titanium exhaust system to make it sing even better. 500hp and 550kg is superbike power to weight ratio. Basically if you want to feel how a fly feels this is the answer I just wish they added another 50kg and 4WD the insect.

:cool:

#9 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 13 August 2011 - 10:06

A car that you could not have fun in the rain hardly justifies the price but still, its not a case of getting a cage and dumping a big 500hp V8 as well because the Atom is very small and packing 500hp would be an experience that can't be found anywhere on anything with two seats.


The Deronda fits the bill and with the LS7's double the torque would be far easier to drive and no doubt would beat the Atom in roll-ons.

DPCars has something coming too, the DP2 that uses a LS3 ....

Posted Image

This isn't a go at the Atom (the Caterham V8 is the same) itself but I think the engine sounds awful considering it should sound like a Cosworth or a Judd ... strange.

It should sound like this ..

http://www.flickr.co...ane/2414474052/

Edited by cheapracer, 13 August 2011 - 10:10.


#10 Powersteer

Powersteer
  • Member

  • 2,460 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 13 August 2011 - 16:33

Kind of like the Deronda but the name....uuuh...LS7 version should be epic. That CGI that car looks cool with the T-Bar roof roll cage.

:cool:

#11 Tony Matthews

Tony Matthews
  • Member

  • 17,498 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 13 August 2011 - 17:14

Kind of like the Deronda but the name....uuuh...

Yes, it has a whiff of anti-perspirant about it. "New, improved Deronda - stay dry 24/7 with the new Deronda formulation, now with added coal tar..."

#12 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 13 August 2011 - 17:25

Kind of like the Deronda but the name....uuuh...LS7 version should be epic. That CGI that car looks cool with the T-Bar roof roll cage.

:cool:


Had I seen the Deronda chassis layout earlier I would have followed the general design of it (I especially like the side protection) - that's the chassis, not the overall car which isn't a good looker and I can't understand that nose shape at all, maybe looked good on the napkin at the time "oh lets do a Sharknose Ferrari" but didn't translate to real life at all..

DP Cars website has some interesting stuff here and there, some of you may know the 4wd Busa V8 powered almost go-Kart sized DP4 which has had a big internet following - not that I'm a fan myself.

http://dpcars.net/

#13 HaydenFan

HaydenFan
  • Member

  • 2,044 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 13 August 2011 - 17:50

HaydenFan,

If you're going to build a car yourself like the Ariel Atom V8, that can go two or three times the legal speed limit, you had better understand the design and engineering issues involved. At least if you want to live much past your first test drive......

Besides, it is way more satisfying to spend a couple years designing and building something entirely your own, than it is to simply "hot rod" an existing car. Taking the time to learn all of the processes involved in making a car from scratch (ie. fabricating, welding, machining, fiberglass body work, wiring, painting, suspension design, chassis structural design, aerodynamics, etc.) would be a great learning experience. While it might seem intimidating at first to the average person, as long as you take the time to learn to do each step right, anyone can achieve good results. Learning to do things on your own is now easier than ever with access to the internet.

You can build a 2 seat Cr-Mo steel tube space frame chassis, with a pushrod/rocker arm, double A-arm suspension using 2-way adjustable coil-over dampeners and driver adjustable roll bars, a fiberglass body with an underwing, powered by a mid-mounted 500hp Chevy V8 crate motor and a 5-speed Quaife sequential transaxel, stopped by 6 piston Brembo brake calipers and 14 inch rotors with driver-adjustable brake bias, which weighs less than 1800 lbs, all for much less than $50K.

Of course, if you live in sunny southern California like I do, not having a roof is no big deal. But if you live someplace rainy like the UK, not having a roof is more of an issue.

slider


lt
But how many people have the tools and the abilities to fabricate and build a totally new car? Using a car already built makes it an easier platform for people who don't have all the things necessary to build a one-off supercar.

#14 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 1,358 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 13 August 2011 - 18:24

There are some steps you can take to make own build a bit easier but it will never be really easy.

Remember the key test of any potential component LCA = light, cheap,available. The Chevy small block is a prime example of good LCA hence it's huge popularity.

Set down and model your planned perfomance , power,weight, top speed and use the simple formulas available to see how close you can get before cutting metal/buying parts.

If you can accept the cosmetics use existing suspension components. A lot of very good engineers will,have developed them to be safe in almost any circustance. If you keep your cars weight well below the donor car you will have a safety margin for grippy tyres/downforce etc. Springs and roll bars will let you do most of the necessary suspension tuning. Fortunately more and more production cars are doing multi link ( aka double wishbone) rear ends as well as double wishbone front ends.

Decide early on how you will do the bodywork. This is by far the hardest,longest, most expensive part and it is the one most influenced by legal requirements.

Add 30% to whatever cost estimates you make and you might end up on budget.

Use quality wiring components and test the harness etc constantly as you build it. Random electric faults cause frequent delays ( true of trains, planes and just about anything these days).

#15 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 13 August 2011 - 18:24

lt
But how many people have the tools and the abilities to fabricate and build a totally new car?


Plenty of people building supercars everyday in the home garages actually ..

http://www.locostusa.com/forums/


#16 kikiturbo2

kikiturbo2
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 13 August 2011 - 23:17

...and garden sheds.. :lol:

#17 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 14 August 2011 - 00:52

Supercars? Err...no.

#18 HaydenFan

HaydenFan
  • Member

  • 2,044 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 14 August 2011 - 01:34

Supercars? Err...no.


Those cars mentioned on that site are people building a good car. The Super 7 is an excellent base for a quick little car, but when I mentioned that most people, building a super car isn't possible, I was referring to designs like the Gumpert, the Veritas, the Ascari. Cars built by small makers with huge power and speed, without the refinement seen from the major automakers.

A normal person without hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in tools and technology cannot build one of those cars. He has a small garage and a few bucks to spend on building a world beater. And like I said before, a car already built is a much easier base to build around than a completely new design.

#19 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 14 August 2011 - 05:04

Supercars? Err...no.


You want to explain that?

Of course that depends on what one defines as a "Supercar" ....?? I base it purely on performance, not "bling".

I was referring to designs like the Gumpert, the Veritas, the Ascari. Cars built by small makers with huge power and speed, without the refinement seen from the major automakers.


Mark Williams built his own series of sports race cars in Australia and gave them an Italian name "Minetti" to give them an Italian Supercar sound. :lol:

I might call mine Gallini, Lombardi, Chinetti, Gioverdi to evoke emotions or maybe just Bob.


A normal person without hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in tools and technology cannot build one of those cars. He has a small garage and a few bucks to spend on building a world beater.


No one told them that luckily.

Edited by cheapracer, 14 August 2011 - 05:06.


Advertisement

#20 Tony Matthews

Tony Matthews
  • Member

  • 17,498 posts
  • Joined: September 08

Posted 14 August 2011 - 06:53

... or maybe just Bob.

What about Xmmm?

#21 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 5,668 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 14 August 2011 - 07:41

Jeff

#22 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 14 August 2011 - 08:16

Jeff


...and then?

What about Xmmm?


Why would I call a car "Steve"?

Edited by cheapracer, 14 August 2011 - 08:25.


#23 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
  • Member

  • 5,668 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 14 August 2011 - 10:30

...and then?

Well played.


#24 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 14 August 2011 - 16:33

Define performance Cheapie. Is it straight line acceleration? Cornering force? Top speed? Reliability? Usefulness? Practicality? Fuel economy? Crash-worthiness? Fit-n-finish? Some of the above? All of the above? None of the above?

The term supercar means fairly specific things in my mind. It's not a "track refugee" that's only comparison to a street car is that they both have 4 wheels. It has a windshield so I don't have to dress like I'm riding a motorcycle when in fact I'm not riding a motorcycle. It has the requisite ludicrous top-speed, time-warping acceleration and neck-breaking cornering force. It does this while you're wrapped in a cockpit of exquisite workmanship and materials but by no means requires any bling (ala the Zonda interior-though I like it). It's perfectly tuned for its chassis, its mapping flawless. If you have an accident at normal speeds, you will not be found 400 yards from your own arms, nor crushed into space your wallet couldn't fit. When it rains the brakes still work, the windshield stays de-misted and the wipers allow you to continue your trek without a white cane. Body gaps are better than average, paint is what you'd expect of anything that cost several thousand times a Dubai gas-pump jockey's annual salary. And - key here - nothing appears to have been pulled from the junkyard or grafted on from some $500 donor.

If you'd said the folks at that site were building cool/interesting/fast/unique/remarkable/amazing/shocking/jaw-dropping/blindingly-fast/original/etc. then I'd not have commented. To say they're building supercars? Please. That does a tremendous disservice to the brilliant teams of engineers that actually are. Can a single individual out-perform a team of corporate engineers mired in policy and process? Unquestionably. Can said team of engineers, when given appropriate authority and freedom (and financing) completely destroy that lone accountant cum back-yard engineer? Obviously.

Edited by Canuck, 14 August 2011 - 17:47.


#25 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 14 August 2011 - 18:10

Define performance Cheapie. Is it straight line acceleration? Cornering force? Top speed?


It's always 2 of those.


It has a windshield so i don't have to dress like I'm riding a motorcycle when in fact I'm not riding a motorcycle.


So the Atom, Deronda, Ferrari F50, Porsche Carrera GT, Shelby Cobra to name a few are not Supercars?


It has the requisite ludicrous top-speed,


How fast is ludicrous?

Is 170 enough that the Atom 500 and various Porsche's as well as others have? I can name mass production cars that are there.


It does this while you're wrapped in a cockpit of exquisite workmanship and materials


Thats bling, nothing at all to do with a vehicles capabilities and from that I guess you haven't seen inside a McLaren F1, Lambo Countach, various Maserati's, a real Ford GT40, a Shelby Cobra and a whole bunch of "Supercars". By the way, does that make a Rolls Royce or a Mabach a Supercar?

Have you ever seen the Bathurst 24 hour races? - Mosler MT 900R, Lamborghini Diablo GTR, Ferrari 360 N-GT, Porsche 911 GT3 RS, Porsche 911 GT3 RC, BMW M3 GTR etc - Supercars right? but are the big production sedan based 2 door coupe 200+mph Holden Monaros that blew them all into the weeds in every area of performance also Supercars? What about the mass production 4 door sedan Ford XR6 that bugged some of those Supercars also?

Is an Ultima kit car which is built to a base spec and is faster than most exotic cars and holds various records including 0-100-0 not a Supercar because it's assembled by the client?

Is any exotic that uses an American V8 not a real Supercar? "oh it hasn't got 345 valves and 28 camshafts and doesn't do 54,000 rpm"

I've got it, it's what makes it to the top of Top Gears lap board!

Speaking of laps, go see what has entered into the Targa Tasmania over the years and what actually does well on the very best of real roads with real tyres ....




#26 ray b

ray b
  • Member

  • 2,560 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 14 August 2011 - 19:39

http://www.silversta...sults-entry.htm

90 miles real public roads
american hot rods win year after year
I do wish the euro so called super cars would show up more often

#27 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 1,358 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 14 August 2011 - 19:45

that lone accountant cum back-yard engineer? Obviously.



Gosh, that's me Canuck!!

As a "lone accountant cum back-yard engineer" I would not even pretend to get within 10% of what people like McL or Ferrari do, that would be silly, however there are some comments I would add to that disclaimer.

If you think the Atom is a supercar then special buliders can get quite close with proper money as it gives up on the two things special builders struggle with - bodywork and refinement.

I don't think the Atom is a supercar but I do think the Morgan Aero 8 is one. Having seen an Aero 8 being made a highly skilled special builder ( not me) could get close - excluding the exquisite bodywork. The thing is basically a bolt together of a BMW powertrain and a bonded aluminium chassis.

Special builders have some advantages in place of money/engineers - they can buy 3-4 yr old powertrain technology for peanuts by sourcing from crashed cars. For example finding the 4.8 litre V-8 and eight speed trans of the Aero 8 is not hard in Europe as it comes from the BMW X 5 and 5 series which are reaching breakers yards. If you live in the USA it is even easier just buy a GM crate motor!

The key things ( I think) for roadholding are good tyres, wide wheels and top quality dampers. All those can be bought by anybody, they are not exclusive to Ferrari etc.

Weight ,or lack of it, is also key to performance/roadholding, OEM engineers struggle with weight as the customers ( as below) want all the gizmos. Again a special builder can score here.

We are lucky in the UK but for say $20K I could take a home built car to the MIRA wind tunnel and, I hope if asked nicely, Dave W could put it on his four post rig. Then I would have real data from world class sources to help with development.

A lot of the cleverness of supercars is in the refinement because to make money they have to sell at high prices to rich people who are not car nuts and want BMW type NVH and reliablity for their $250K. A special builder has done of that requirement and I don't think it is essential the supercar concept. It is only necessary to sell them in volume to rich customers.





#28 kikiturbo2

kikiturbo2
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 14 August 2011 - 20:48

Speaking of laps, go see what has entered into the Targa Tasmania over the years and what actually does well on the very best of real roads with real tyres ....



as far as I can see in the top 5, it is mostly GT-R, then a bunch of evo's and imprezas, with a lonely gallardo having a try.. :)

#29 kikiturbo2

kikiturbo2
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 14 August 2011 - 20:50

A lot of the cleverness of supercars is in the refinement because to make money they have to sell at high prices to rich people who are not car nuts and want BMW type NVH and reliablity for their $250K. A special builder has done of that requirement and I don't think it is essential the supercar concept. It is only necessary to sell them in volume to rich customers.



It was Noble, i think, who said: "it is not a problem to make a fast car, but making one whose door seals work, now that is a problem.. " :)

#30 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 15 August 2011 - 00:27

Precisely Kiki. Making a car fast is not hard - a million (or 20) people do it every year. Making it fast, reliable, drivable and live-with-me-daily for the "I haven't invested my heart, soul and marriage into creating this mess" owner is not the same thing as a software engineer sending Ultima a cheque for $40k and bolting it together himself. So no - Ultima GTR (my all-time favourite attainable car) is not a supercar. Supercar performance? Yes. That's about where it ends. Or, is this where you tell me that these owners spend the money and take the painstaking, nit-picking details and iron them out to make a perfect dash? They hire (or are) designers who can mix the requisite creativity, art and functionality together to make an interior not just a place from which to pilot the vehicle, but an area of simplistic beauty? Riiiiiiiight. For the record, I never said anything about the manner of power train. Mercedes makes Zonda's engine, BMW supplied McLaren, Audi supplies the Gumpert lump I belive. No shame in not making your own engine so not having an LS is not a criterium no.

Taking this Posted Image,
lowering it by adding suspension from this
Posted Image
and powering it with this
Posted Image
does not equal this
Posted Image
or this
Posted Image

How you manage to lump together the Atom with a GT is mind-boggling - perhaps it is the tunnel vision. Aside from that, the F50 and the GT are easily supercars by my measure. They have windshields, they have proper interiors and they sure as hell have NOTHING in common with the home-built specials (apart from the 4 wheels thing). The Cobra, by Shelby is certainly a remarkable performance car, but not, it's not a supercar either. I'd go so far as to say the F40 was perhaps the first of the "super". Lots of exotics, lots of performance cars, no end of hotrods, but we're not talking typical, we're talking super. Is the Atom faster than all of them? Why yes it is. In fact, I do believe as of this year, the Atom V8 is sitting at the top of the TG leaderboard. But it's still not a supercar. It lacks refinement as Mariner pointed out. A supercar isn't, as I said before, a de-tuned track refugee. A fast car is not a supercar. Fast != Super, full stop. You don't seem to be able to separate the performance from the entire package. This is why you don't (appear to) understand supercars.

Besides, while it's true that the Atom beat a motorcycle around the track, it beat a 600. Put a 1000cc, showroom stock motorcycle in the hands of a rider and watch it demoralize the same test car. And that kind of performance is available for <$15k, with a warranty and all the refinement and perfection one can buy in a showroom full of disposable performance.

#31 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 15 August 2011 - 00:49

Mariner - I don't think I qualify as that - I'm more like middle-manager cum middle manager. I believe a homebuilder can build a pretty excellent car, but the suggestion that one guy can piece together a package that is as perfect and refined as a team of practiced, experienced professionals is insulting and laughable at the same time (which I don't believe was your position). An Atom is no more a Porsche GT than an original Ford GT40 is a road car.

#32 Nathan

Nathan
  • Member

  • 2,563 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 15 August 2011 - 02:57

I'd still buy it over a Ferrari/Lambo and any mass built sports car. It's different. I don't think a Ferrari actually turns heads anymore. Passed a 430 on the road this morning and if I didn't know it was a Ferrari I'd not have looked in the mirror. I looked liked the Hyundai I passed a few miles earlier.

You could for under 50 thousand USD, build a car that could run toe to toe with the Veyron.

:drunk: :rotfl:

Edited by Nathan, 15 August 2011 - 02:58.


#33 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 15 August 2011 - 08:50

Canuck, go and crawl all over a Ferrari F40, they are abysmal in assembly and quality and well renowned for it, in fact search the net for Gordon Murray's opinion on one after he studied them as he thought that was the target for his F1 to beat ...

Posted Image

BTW, is that a FIAT Ritmo indicator stalk? :lol:

You do need to wear waterproofs in an F50 or Carrera GT the same as a Locost - it is obvious "bling blindness" that makes you type otherwise, rain falls into a million dollar Zonda Roadster F Clubsport just as quickly as a Mazda Miata.


......

F40 inspired ....

http://www.f40.co.nz... Going Hard.wmv

0 - 100kph: 3.27 secs
0 - 150kph: 5.96 secs
0 - 200kph: 9.18 secs
0 - 250kph: 14.94 secs
100-150kph: 2.78 secs
100-200kph: 5.95 secs
100-250kph: 11.76 secs
150-200kph: 3.17 secs
200-250kph: 5.76 secs

220 mph and 1.7 G's and you can buy them complete - is it a Supercar or not?




#34 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 15 August 2011 - 09:32

Passed a 430 on the road this morning and if I didn't know it was a Ferrari I'd not have looked in the mirror. I looked liked the Hyundai I passed a few miles earlier.

You could for under 50 thousand USD, build a car that could run toe to toe with the Veyron.


You're right there, what were they thinking with the 360?? It looked so bad in the pictures when I first saw it that I sought one out for real thinking it might be an Alfa 164 syndrome (awful in pictures, dead drop gorgeous in the flesh) but nope, plain as any Japanese sports car and the 430 isn't much better.

50K would cover it up to 200mph, there's plenty of street cars driving around that can do it now and some of those Time Attack cars are wild - they are reliably getting 800 to 900 hp out of older GTR Skylines now at half the weight and similar frontal area.



#35 kikiturbo2

kikiturbo2
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:08

ha, you should see the welds on a F458.. :)

Posted Image

notice that the weld in question doesn't actually weld anything togeather.. .:) and this is chassis.. The brackets that hold the bumpers are far worse.. :)

I think this discussion about supercars is purely subjective.. I have no doubt that an advanced hobbyist can knock togeather a supercar fast car, although he will be using parts and subassembies made by professionals in big companies.. in fact fast homebuilts are mostly existing drivetrains in a super light body... hell I am building one myself.. :)

For me supercars are also about the big price tag and exquisite workmanship, as I am fully aware that they are mostly useless on normal B roads.. While we might laugh about the workmanship on old lambos/ferraris/etc., the current crop (influenced by the daddy of them all, the F1) is just astonishing... Take a walk around Pagani Zonda or the new Huayra, and the attention to detail is just sick..





#36 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 15 August 2011 - 10:29

although he will be using parts and subassembies made by professionals in big companies.. in fact fast homebuilts are mostly existing drivetrains in a super light body...


Did you mean to say "in fact Supercars are mostly existing drivetrains in a super light body"

or else every Supercar that doesn't make it's own engine, gearbox and other major components isn't a Supercar ... and that's quite a list starting with the McLaren F1!

I guess that includes just about all of them with outside sourced Brembo brakes too.

As the criteria narrows, this is narrowing down to the Corvette Z01 and Holden Monaro 427 being the only true Supercars out there using all their own GM components ;)

#37 24gerrard

24gerrard
  • Member

  • 2,008 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:03

The only true Supercars now will be electric.

The old ones might just as well be relegated to the age of steam traction.

#38 kikiturbo2

kikiturbo2
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 15 August 2011 - 12:52

Did you mean to say "in fact Supercars are mostly existing drivetrains in a super light body"

or else every Supercar that doesn't make it's own engine, gearbox and other major components isn't a Supercar ... and that's quite a list starting with the McLaren F1!


hehe... nice spin.. :)

I just meant that a "lone builder doing a home build" will still rely on ready made components..

as for mainstream supercars, most of them have, in fact, bespoke built to order components specific to them alone.. F1 engine was built specifically for it and sheres nothing but bore centers with other BMW units.. Zonda and Huayra might have a AMG engne but it is specifically built for this application.. (ok, ok, in this case block and head castings are the same as in the old S class.. :) )

otherwise, I do not care for this Supercar argument, it is all in the eye of the beholder... :)

Edited by kikiturbo2, 15 August 2011 - 12:58.


#39 kikiturbo2

kikiturbo2
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 15 August 2011 - 12:55

The only true Supercars now will be electric.

The old ones might just as well be relegated to the age of steam traction.



there is one such project going on in Croatia right now..
http://www.rimac-aut....com/prelaunch/

I had a look at their test car, an old 3 series BMW, and the prototype of the 1088 bhp supercar... I find them a bit high on the BS scale for my liking, but it is a very small group of people doing it....
I would put down a wager that they will fail, not because they can not make the drivetrain, which they will probably succeed in making, but because the doors will not close properly...

Advertisement

#40 24gerrard

24gerrard
  • Member

  • 2,008 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 15 August 2011 - 13:39

there is one such project going on in Croatia right now..
http://www.rimac-aut....com/prelaunch/

I had a look at their test car, an old 3 series BMW, and the prototype of the 1088 bhp supercar... I find them a bit high on the BS scale for my liking, but it is a very small group of people doing it....
I would put down a wager that they will fail, not because they can not make the drivetrain, which they will probably succeed in making, but because the doors will not close properly...


You should look into what Ferrari are looking at for the future.
Even they say an electric Ferrari will be made.

#41 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 15 August 2011 - 13:55

otherwise, I do not care for this Supercar argument, it is all in the eye of the beholder... :)


And in your back too 'cause that's where you feel it. A Supercar to me is very simple, the equivalent of a Superman - goes far beyond what the average car can do in terms of performance.

I think there has been a trend in some quarters recently to only name a car "Supercar" if it can break 300kph, considering the amount of family cars that can reach 250kph I guess they feel the goal posts need to be established.




#42 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 15 August 2011 - 14:16

Where did this roof argument come from? Again, I never said anything about a roof (though in looking for an F40 shot, a number of the pics on the first Google image results had roofs, same with the GT). And...again with the outsourced bits argument. I said they weren't salvaged from the junkyard or obviously off your $500 donor. I didn't say "everything has to be manufactured by the supercar company". Nothing of the sort. In fact, I can't think of a single production car (super or otherwise) that meets that standard. They don't make their own ECUs, forge (or cast) their own cranks, pistons, sew their own interiors, build their own switches...I would hazard a guess that allmof them make something, but none of them make everything. But again, that was your criterial imposition, not mine.

Your position appears to be thus: whether I am a trained engineer or not, an educated designer or not and a skilled mechanic or not (add welder, electrician, bodyman, etc), I am absolutely capable of building a car that is in the same class as a one designed and built by a team of educated and experienced professionals with serious funding, in a dedicated design and assembly facility. That they will draw on the paid, dedicated support of outside specialists who set the bar for excellence in their field (IE Bosch) does not matter because my collection of junkyard parts that were designed entirely around a different application, my $1000 in Sears tools, and my team of professional Internet forum posters can beat them at their own game.

Riiiiiiiiight. I forgot - those engineering types - they're all stupid. They have no idea what they're doing. They aren't car enthusiasts either - they all go home to dust their porcelain doll collections and watch the shopping channel. Your apparent dismissal of the thousands of hours of trained, educated, experienced effort that goes into the planning and execution of a true supercar is baffling. You're all Gordon Murray if you'd just try!

#43 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 15 August 2011 - 14:37

I had a look at their test car, an old 3 series BMW, and the prototype of the 1088 bhp supercar... but because the doors will not close properly...


It will enter in the "E-Milga" a rally where they do 50 miles, overnight break, 50 miles, overnight break, 50 miles, overnight break .......

Posted Image

#44 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 15 August 2011 - 15:16

Your position appears to be thus: whether I am a trained engineer or not, an educated designer or not and a skilled mechanic or not (add welder, electrician, bodyman, etc), I am absolutely capable of building a car that is in the same class as a one designed and built by a team of educated and experienced professionals with serious funding, in a dedicated design and assembly facility. That they will draw on the paid, dedicated support of outside specialists who set the bar for excellence in their field (IE Bosch) does not matter because my collection of junkyard parts that were designed entirely around a different application, my $1000 in Sears tools, and my team of professional Internet forum posters can beat them at their own game.


Well it took you long enough.

By the way, those teams of very clver engineers build awesome'ness all the time then they have to build in understeer, compliance, NVH, crashworthy test values and a whole host of other things bless their little hearts, Garageists do not have those restrictions. BTW, some Garageists spend a small fortune on their projects, I never mentioned money.

I'll tell you what, there's some very, very clever people in forums and it's worth paying attention to what many of them offer - and a number of them are those very engineers letting of those frustrations mentioned above..


#45 kikiturbo2

kikiturbo2
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 15 August 2011 - 16:06

It will enter in the "E-Milga" a rally where they do 50 miles, overnight break, 50 miles, overnight break, 50 miles, overnight break .......


:lol:

a CEO of an automotive company who I can't officially quote once told me "they keep thelling me that their electric car is faster than our coupe, I tell them, ok, let's have a race, from Hamburg to Munich.... "


Edited by kikiturbo2, 15 August 2011 - 16:07.


#46 24gerrard

24gerrard
  • Member

  • 2,008 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 15 August 2011 - 17:38

:lol:

a CEO of an automotive company who I can't officially quote once told me "they keep thelling me that their electric car is faster than our coupe, I tell them, ok, let's have a race, from Hamburg to Munich.... "


Hmm, strange I always thought it was illegal to race on the public highway.
AFAIK racing is confined to circuits or rally courses with tight regulations designed to favour chosen vehicle specifications.

#47 bigleagueslider

bigleagueslider
  • Member

  • 837 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:22

How about this for a garage-built supercar. 575mph and built in a small garage in Los Angeles, California:

Posted Image

Those that can, do......Those that can't, whine about it.

#48 24gerrard

24gerrard
  • Member

  • 2,008 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:36

Heres one I made earlier for two wheels.

http://oi34.tinypic.com/fw820o.jpg

#49 Canuck

Canuck
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 16 August 2011 - 22:54

How about this for a garage-built supercar.

Cool car but not a supercar.

Those that can, do......Those that can't, change the definition and fake it.

Corrected.

#50 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 5,170 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 16 August 2011 - 23:24

a CEO of an automotive company who I can't officially quote once told me "they keep thelling me that their electric car is faster than our coupe, I tell them, ok, let's have a race, from Hamburg to Munich.... "

I recently saw Top Gear's M3 vs Prius Economy episode recently and had a giggle. I enjoyed the satire but how many viewers were aware of the complete lack of validity of their test? Not to mention the rant about how the materials for the Prius battery are shipped around the world. WTF? Everything these days - including complete cars gets shipped around the world.

I am sick of all the nonsense about embedded energy in the production of EVs and hybrids. How about some facts and figures? Tesla battery recycling.

Edited by gruntguru, 16 August 2011 - 23:36.