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Some hard numbers on the Atom V-8


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#51 pugfan

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 03:07

I recently saw Top Gear's M3 vs Prius Economy episode recently and had a giggle. I enjoyed the satire but how many viewers were aware of the complete lack of validity of their test? Not to mention the rant about how the materials for the Prius battery are shipped around the world. WTF? Everything these days - including complete cars gets shipped around the world.


At the very least, it's a slightly more nuanced view than:

Prius = hybrid = green.

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#52 cheapracer

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:40

Corrected.

Those that can, do......Those that can't, change the definition and fake it.


I'm guessing your dream job is Valet at the Hilton :lol:

So if I ever get to my Supercar that will be a production car under my brand but cheap and made in China , whats your view on that?

Will it not be a Supercar because;

it's a "Chong Bing Dong X8000" rather than a "Gattalino Rossini"?

it's cheap?

it's made in China?

it has no heritage?







#53 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 05:19

I enjoyed the satire but how many viewers were aware of the complete lack of validity of their test?

Really gg, you want validity? It's Top Gear, for goodness' sake, it is laddish entertainment, and long may it stay so.

#54 cheapracer

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 06:57

I am sick of all the nonsense about embedded energy in the production of EVs and hybrids. How about some facts and figures? Tesla battery recycling.


I don't need figures or twistedly written blurbs (which don't cover the costs) - I see the end results of poor people in India, China and I'm sure other places who are left at the end of the day to clean up the mess as suedo Greenies merely place them in a dustbin marked "Recycle Bin" and feel good about themselves not giving a **** what happens from there on. At least China is stopping this right now, as I mentioned before, I guess those awesome "Green Recycling Companies" from around the world will have to find another country to dump their rotten shit in.

Of course those same suedo Greenies are the same ones who will offer their disgust at India, China etc's "polluting ways" ....

http://en.wikipedia...._waste_in_Guiyu

Posted Image

And you think I want to support cars that have 20 times more batteries and hardboards.



As for Tesla, they are playing the numbers games, having 30% of the rotten materials compared to a normal battery sounds great until you mention (or rather don't mention) you have 10 times as many of them - and then there's the 10x cost of a lithium battery.

Edited by cheapracer, 17 August 2011 - 07:00.


#55 bigleagueslider

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 08:30

Of course those same suedo Greenies are the same ones who will offer their disgust at India, China etc's "polluting ways" ....

And you think I want to support cars that have 20 times more batteries and hardboards.

As for Tesla, they are playing the numbers games, having 30% of the rotten materials compared to a normal battery sounds great until you mention (or rather don't mention) you have 10 times as many of them - and then there's the 10x cost of a lithium battery.


cheapracer,

As you sort of mentioned, a battery is not a source of power. It is simply a device for storing power, similar to a gas tank.

Regarding the enviro-hypocrites at Tesla and Toyota, the raw materials for their lithium-ion batteries come mostly from the oppressive communist regime of the PRC.

As for "rotten materials", a typical lead-acid battery has less of an "environmental footprint" throughout its lifecycle, than a lithium-ion battery.

Regards,
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#56 Canuck

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 13:09

Having spent the last week on holidays, home with my three kids while the wife was out of town, my dream job notions changed entirely. I'd love to be a kept man (or independently wealthy), and spend my day shaping their young minds. I could also enjoy doing the Top Gear thing I suspect - thrashing about in a zillion different cars but not having to live with any of them.

That you fired your team of Chinese supercar builders gives me hope. When you get your car off the ground, if it's bonkers fast, bonkers to look at, appears to have been designed by Germans living in Italy, finished by a team of Swiss watch builders and hand-rubbed to completion by a team of 20-something Swedish bikini models then a Supercar it shall be. If on the otherhand it has all the hallmarks of things the rest of the world apart from you are implying when they say "made in China", then no - no it won't.

#57 meb58

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 14:24

Agreed...I mean where can we see a Lotus racing a helicopter around a race track? Seriously entertaining stuff...while I eat my chips of course.

Really gg, you want validity? It's Top Gear, for goodness' sake, it is laddish entertainment, and long may it stay so.



#58 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 15:50

the raw materials for their lithium-ion batteries come mostly from the oppressive communist regime of the PRC.

And three times as much comes from Chile, with Bolivia and Australia up there too.

#59 Tony Matthews

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 15:54

...while I eat my chips of course.

Chips?! You lucky, lucky...

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#60 kikiturbo2

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:16

.... If on the otherhand it has all the hallmarks of things the rest of the world apart from you are implying when they say "made in China", then no - no it won't.



I dropped into a friends garage yesterday... he tends to service and restore foreign exotica for a living... I just wanted to use his car lift to do a quick oil change... So he calls me in with the following words: "come in and take a look at this piece of crap..."...

Up in the air a black Murcielago Spider, It's engine out for a clutch change... Now, I am a amateur welder, and fuss about my welds all the time, but the "spaceframe" on the Murcielago looks worse than my garden fence..

On the other hand I have to agree with you... a proper "supercar" is not only about performance... it needs to look the part, be outrageous, and outrageously expensive..

#61 mariner

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 16:56

I have heard that about Lambo's before. There was an article once in a mag. about the servicing costs on various supercars by a guy who was in the very unusual position of actually being able to track and compare supercar costs as he did the maintainance for a rental fleet in the UK which had, Lambos, Ferrari's, Porsche, Astons, Bentleys etc. Because they were rented they built up decent milage, up to 7-10K per year unlike most supercrs which average 3k or under.

Basically the Lambos cost a fortune to maintain, well above Ferrari and, surprise, surprise the Porsches were cheapest aned most reliable. Astons had started bad but got better.

The Lambo's could use a clutch in 5K miles at £6,000 to replace it!

IMHO the first true supercar was the MB 300SL because not only was it hugely fast by standards of the day but it was designed by serious engineers and all the bits were made to a real quality std.

A lot of Italian supercars throught he 1960's to 1980's were very crude under the surface. The F40 is truly a supercar but the actual interior finish is pretty basic.

#62 cheapracer

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 17:28

Regarding the enviro-hypocrites at Tesla and Toyota, the raw materials for their lithium-ion batteries come from ..


Where an item comes from has no bearing on the responsibility of the consumer.

Further to that, I wish Australia would STFU - meaning shut their doors to foreign trade and restart their own manufacturing industry back up and become self sufficient again and I know theres many an American and Brit who agrees but that also means getting your own pollution problems with it. You can't buy product from India, China, Mexico etc then hypocritically point your finger at those "evil polluters..."


As for "rotten materials", a typical lead-acid battery has less of an "environmental footprint" throughout its lifecycle, than a lithium-ion battery.


But you use 2, 3 or more times as many lead acids as a lithium? - or did you have that already adjusted? I really don't know the subject that well and happy to learn more ....


... the oppressive communist regime of the PRC.


Yeah just today I was beaten and tortured again but at least we get to feast on the village pig tonight to celebrate the new sickle factory being finished ... you need to get a haircut and stop wearing flares, it's 2011.




#63 cheapracer

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 17:51

... a proper "supercar" is outrageously expensive..


Ummm ???????????? Why?

IMHO the first true supercar was the MB 300SL because not only was it hugely fast by standards of the day but it was designed by serious engineers and all the bits were made to a real quality std.


Probably but the recognised first modern road going Supercar is the Lambo Muira, basically an after hours part time homebuilt chassis by 3 of Lambo's engineers without budget so they cut sections out of flat sheet and stamped trumpet holes in them for strength and weight reduction and a painted carved wooden dummy transmission with of course the 350GT's V12 sitting in it. Mr Lambo somewhat begrudgingly put it on show and it was a smash success with deposits layed down even though there wasn't even a body designed for it.


That you fired your team of Chinese.....


Pre conception about Chinese workers, as much my fault from lack of fluent language and incomplete understanding of how to administrate Chinese workers. For example, if you've had a hard week and maybe it's hot, about 3pm Friday arvo I might say "Thats enough, we'll knock off early" which goes over well in Oz, you're a decent humane Boss but do it here and the following Friday your worker will start packing up at 3, the precedent has been set and when you say "no, we're not finished yet" well, you're a prick and it's a downhill slide from there. I had one worker who did really good tube to tube fitment until one day he was a bit off and there was about a 4mm gap, I said" No problem, it's weldable" - big mistake, never a decent fitment after that. Another worker had to have 2 weeks off, he still got his full salary through the company and then came to me at the end of the month to sign off for his performance bonus, all of it! .... and that was the end of any decent work from him.

I ended up with a bit of push and shove with one of them on his way out yesterday, I pushed, he got shoved in front of the rest of the factory workers, will be interesting to see their reaction to me in weeks to come.

Edited by cheapracer, 17 August 2011 - 19:46.


#64 kikiturbo2

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 20:56

Ummm ???????????? Why?



the point I'm trying to get across is that "supercar" is a very subjective class.. not entirely down just to performance numbers...

for example.. the new 911 GT2RS is faster then the "old" Carrera GT... however, one is a true supercar and the other is just a fast turbocharged 911, how ever good it is.. It is very personal decision on what is a supercar, and while I am with you on all the performance arguments and the ability of an advanced amateur to build a great car in the garage, if I was ever in a position to have a "Supercar" budget pure performance would be nr.3 on the list of important things.. :)

#65 gruntguru

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 23:05

Really gg, you want validity? It's Top Gear, for goodness' sake, it is laddish entertainment, and long may it stay so.

As I said - I enjoy the nonsense and the satire but when the subject has serious implications and the nonsense is presented without so much as a nudge or a wink, there is no doubt that a large percentage of viewers (particularly those that want to believe the Prius is a hoax) will accept what they see as further proof of their amatuerishly formed opinions.

Case in point. The segment ends with the cliche "its not what you drive but how you drive it" as if to suggest that there is no mileage difference between an M3 and a Prius - its just how you drive them.

Edited by gruntguru, 17 August 2011 - 23:10.


#66 pugfan

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 00:00

Further to that, I wish Australia would STFU - meaning shut their doors to foreign trade and restart their own manufacturing industry back up and become self sufficient again


Australia's last onshore solar cell manufacturing facility closed it's doors this week, production to continue offshore.

#67 gruntguru

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 00:32

Meanwhile the key people at the worlds largest manufacturer of solar panels: CEO - studied in OZ, Chief Technology officer - Ozian.

#68 cheapracer

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 02:06

Australia's last onshore solar cell manufacturing facility closed it's doors this week, production to continue offshore.


What do you expect, the local Government probably took away half their carparks and forced them to landscape them along with the rest of what the various levels of Oz Government considers imperative to a successful business .....


#69 24gerrard

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Posted 18 August 2011 - 07:56

What do you expect, the local Government probably took away half their carparks and forced them to landscape them along with the rest of what the various levels of Oz Government considers imperative to a successful business .....


More like little brown envelopes and pay offs cheapy.
Dont forget people like the Murdochs also originate from out there.
No insult to most Oz people, I have always found them fair and great to work with.
Like us they labour under corruption.

#70 Canuck

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Posted 19 August 2011 - 03:50

Pre conception about Chinese workers, as much my fault from lack of fluent language and incomplete understanding of how to administrate Chinese workers. For example, if you've had a hard week and maybe it's hot, about 3pm Friday arvo I might say "Thats enough, we'll knock off early" which goes over well in Oz, you're a decent humane Boss but do it here and the following Friday your worker will start packing up at 3, the precedent has been set and when you say "no, we're not finished yet" well, you're a prick and it's a downhill slide from there. I had one worker who did really good tube to tube fitment until one day he was a bit off and there was about a 4mm gap, I said" No problem, it's weldable" - big mistake, never a decent fitment after that. Another worker had to have 2 weeks off, he still got his full salary through the company and then came to me at the end of the month to sign off for his performance bonus, all of it! .... and that was the end of any decent work from him.

I ended up with a bit of push and shove with one of them on his way out yesterday, I pushed, he got shoved in front of the rest of the factory workers, will be interesting to see their reaction to me in weeks to come.

Thanks for the head's up.

#71 cheapracer

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 07:07

Christ have a look at another onboard Atom video I just noticed, scary stuff ...



... unfortunately the incredible thrill of it's staggering acceleration blinds testers to serious deficiencies in the chassis it would seem....

#72 kikiturbo2

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 14:42

I drove one on the track and it was nowhere near as snappy as this one in the vid.. might have soemthing to do with the setup of that particular car..
having said that, I am no fan of that frame, airflow over the driver compartment is criminal, and the car becomes relatively slow at 160 kph+



#73 cheapracer

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 01:50

I drove one on the track and it was nowhere near as snappy as this one in the vid.. might have something to do with the setup of that particular car..


I posted these earlier in a discussion on them and I presume that the test car wa direct from Ariel ....

Watch this to see what a layman thinks about driving one, part 2 in particular and the summary in part 3 ...

http://www.google.co...w...sa=N&tab=wv

Then you can watch the Atom incar from here and see the same thing, notice the Caterham gobbles it up in the twistys but then on the straights the Atom's 300 neddies ...

http://www.google.co...w...mp;aql=&oq=





IMO the long and almost equal length arms combined with a high CG lead to a minor modern version of a VW Beetle's swingarm "jacking" - notice it slides, grabs, slides, grabs etc. inconsistently.

The 'race setup' calls for 4 degrees of static camber to avoid positive camber in roll which then upsets the braking. It's hilarious at the Atom forums, classic stuff like "a car such as the Atom shouldn't be easy to drive otherwise everybody could....." :lol:

Surprises me that these problems are well known yet they are onto their 3rd series of which they made chassis structual changes but didn't bother to address it's real issues, guess when you have a years waiting list for a car that can distort your face into an "Alien" you don't have to.


I am no fan of that frame, airflow over the driver compartment is criminal, and the car becomes relatively slow at 160 kph+


Sure but that's a part of the 'outside the box' design that one must accept.




#74 kikiturbo2

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 09:06

Sure but that's a part of the 'outside the box' design that one must accept.



ok, but having your helmet lifted off your head constantly is no fun on the track... Caterham/westfield, even without a screeen, is a much nicer experience in that respect..



#75 cheapracer

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 11:44

ok, but having your helmet lifted off your head constantly is no fun on the track... Caterham/westfield, even without a screeen, is a much nicer experience in that respect..


Never is, spent enough years on the wrong bikes with the wrong helmet on.

But the buffeting is another reason I went away from the total exposed exocar to the new design which hopefully will deflect some air around the occupants and not up ya pants.


#76 Greg Locock

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 00:51

Besides, while it's true that the Atom beat a motorcycle around the track, it beat a 600. Put a 1000cc, showroom stock motorcycle in the hands of a rider and watch it demoralize the same test car. And that kind of performance is available for <$15k, with a warranty and all the refinement and perfection one can buy in a showroom full of disposable performance.

But the track record for a motorcycle around phillip island is slower than that for aformula ford. SO are you saying that it would be difficult to build a road car as quick around PI as a FF?

#77 NeilR

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 01:39

But the track record for a motorcycle around phillip island is slower than that for aformula ford. SO are you saying that it would be difficult to build a road car as quick around PI as a FF?


yes...but no. You know the FF record was set buy a guy who is: 1. a good driver in that car, 2. experienced in the car and at that track 3. is the best time of probably many hundreds of laps. I suspect that a current GT3 Porsche may be around the same time?
I think the term supercar is a marketing term that encompasses desire/prestige etc etc, as such many vehicles with the same or even better numbers on paper may not evoke the same responses for the individual.

#78 cheapracer

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 06:29

But the track record for a motorcycle around phillip island is slower than that for aformula ford. SO are you saying that it would be difficult to build a road car as quick around PI as a FF?


People are quite shocked by the result here ....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-S0EDK22g

#79 Greg Locock

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 22:09

People are quite shocked by the result here ....

www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-S0EDK22g

I'd better eat my words , an FF on PI is damned quick - http://www.phillipis..._April_2011.pdf, so it looks as though yes it would be hard. very interesting

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#80 Canuck

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 19:26

But the track record for a motorcycle around phillip island is slower than that for aformula ford. SO are you saying that it would be difficult to build a road car as quick around PI as a FF?

Uhm...the honest answer is I have no idea. Having never watched nor participated in an FF event, I have no yardstick by which to measure that. My point was (I think - this was some time ago and I'm too lazy go back and read) that the Atom is not a supercar, though it's a neat car. It's performance - beating a 600cc motorcycle around Top Gear's test track - is nothing brilliant. The car gobbled up time on the straights and lost it badly in corners. Put a liter bike on the track and watch it drop the Atom on the straights and likely in the corner too.

At the end of the day defining a supercar is like defining porn. I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it.

Maybe I was arguing the other side. Clearly it's a super car - outrageous performance (within it's envelope), outrageous handling (if you like whip-cracking wet-ice-on-ice), outrageous styling (not really, it just has no clothes)...no, no I don't think I was.

#81 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 02:04

Put a liter bike on the track and watch it drop the Atom on the straights and likely in the corner too.


The Atom 300 was against a 600 and the V8 was against a liter bike.

The laps times at PI for a 600 and a 1000 are quite comparable actually as they are at most tracks. One Oz magazine directly compared the Suzuki GSXR 600, 750 and 1000 at PI a few years ago - Adam Ferguson did a 1:43 on the 600, 1:42 on the 750 and a 1:40 on the 1000.


#82 mariner

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 15:32

I think I may have underestimated the money you can make building "cheapracers" aks the Radical.

http://www.autocar.c...AllCars/260205/

They have just taken on an investor but the important bit is that they claim a turnover of £17.5M for building 230 cars , about £70K per car inlcluding I htnink spares sales.

More significant is a£3.9M profit on £17.5M sales or about 23%. That beats even Porsche and BMW margins and is about £15K per car.

So as Cheapy says you can sell a set of tubes surrounded by glass fibre for a lot less than the prices charged by Radical/Atom etc.



#83 cheapracer

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 17:16

I think I may have underestimated the money you can make building "cheapracers" aks the Radical.

So as Cheapy says you can sell a set of tubes surrounded by glass fibre for a lot less than the prices charged by Radical/Atom etc.


You didn't notice a rather large "Caterham" sponsorship in F1, obviously some large amounts of money involved ...... Caterham's are tubes and fibreglass.

But people keep paying the money obviously, I'm sure mine will be seen in some quarters as lesser vehicles and perceived to be cheaply made and of low standard to justify their own purchase.

#84 cheapracer

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 17:26

They have just taken on an investor but the important bit is that they claim a turnover of £17.5M for building 230 cars , about £70K per car including I think spares sales.


Just looking at that and it can not be correct, I think the most popular is the SR3 is around £40K - something is not right.


#85 Greg Locock

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 21:52

Well I'm glad they make money. I'm guessing that is the raw profit per vehicle, before development costs and so on. Even so 17k per vehicle is impressive (or wrong). Mind you that isn't so far off the sort of markup Lotus used to get way back when, I vaguely remember 44k retail including taxes, 25k wholesale, 18k to build.

#86 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 07:51

Having done a 1 37 lap of Phillip Island I doubt a road going kit style Sports car would ever be within 5 sec of that time. I did it in a 358 Chev powered Torana which weighes a tonne with driver and had over 550 horsepower.And has 12" plus wide slicks. FF2000 are reasonably quick in a straight line and ofcourse handle really well, especially in comparison to my tin top yet alone a Atom style Sports Car. Which are twitchy loose things. Might be good on a short point and squirt tight twisty track but not very good on a high speed generally flowing circuit. That is why the GP bikes really are not that fast there.About the same time as Lowndes 1999!! Supercar record.

#87 cheapracer

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Posted 25 November 2011 - 09:31

Having done a 1 37 lap of Phillip Island I doubt a road going kit style Sports car would ever be within 5 sec of that time. I did it in a 358 Chev powered Torana which weighes a tonne with driver and had over 550 horsepower.And has 12" plus wide slicks.


Some road going kit cars won't go around a race track as fast as a dedicated 550hp racing car with dedicated racing tyres - I am shocked at this revelation.


That is why the GP bikes really are not that fast there.About the same time as Lowndes 1999!! Supercar record.


A few seconds faster actually but bikes have to deal with 2 to 3 square inches of tyre contact patch.

#88 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 00:29

Some road going kit cars won't go around a race track as fast as a dedicated 550hp racing car with dedicated racing tyres - I am shocked at this revelation.




A few seconds faster actually but bikes have to deal with 2 to 3 square inches of tyre contact patch.

1 min 37 is the formula Ford 2000 record. I believe the claim was that it will be as fast as a FF. Clearly that will never be the case.
Though possibly, on slicks, a couple of seconds slower around tight places like Winton short track or Mallala.

#89 mariner

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 10:34

Just looking at that and it can not be correct, I think the most popular is the SR3 is around £40K - something is not right.


I think it is the old "but you will need these extras , sir" story on many new cars.

If you look at Radical's own second hand showroom the second hand prices average £40K or so.

http://www.radicalsp...arshowroom.aspx

So given they are selling to racers and some parts are virtually consumables the £17M/230 annual units = £70K is not too much of a stretch.

Back when GM and Chrysler went bust the US govenment puiblished some gross margin data which was 30% for GM IIRC . That implies people like BMW and Porsche get 40% so with a Radical 40% + may be acheivable. That would get the £3.7m net profit IF they keep R+D to a minimum, remember they have virtually no safety regs compliance cost at all to come out of gross margin ( unlike road OEM's)

The real trick is to keep the volume at 230 per year when an increassing supply of second hand cars of basically the same spec. floods the market in future. In the glory days of the UK racing car industry each supplier cycled form boom to near bust as somebody else built a car only one second a lap quicker. Lotus 22/23 replaced by Brabham BT 18/19 ,etc, etc.

Then the cashflow goes down, spares sales dry up and Bang out of the business.

IMHO Radical will stay profitable only as long as they can control the race series to keep it a spec. series of their products alone