57 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

Having always been a fan of EH Holdens what exactly was their weak points at Bathurst, besides the obvious gearbox woes.I believe they were quite fast but broke either wheels or stub axles, or both.
The history of the race seems to be a bit more obscure than races held even the next year.The S4 while no Supercar at least seems to have been a better car than the results suggest.

[DJH]

If you're referring to the '63 Armstrong 500........drum brakes and using Armstrong shockers were a couple of major handicaps. The Cortina GT's were really miles in front even before the race had started. I've driven both cars, the EH was pretty crude in comparison, bench seat, 3 on the tree and bloody aweful handling and brakes. They made good taxis.
I thought the Velox and Mk3 Zephyr were far better road cars, compared to the EH Holden.
I don't recall any EH having wheel or stub axle problems in '63, Muir/ Martin car dropped a tail shaft, related to shock mount problems. The EH back axle skipped around pretty badly anyway.
The Holdens didn't fair too well in '63, despite their limited run of S4 Bathurst "specials". The S4 wasn't available for public
sale and in the view of many, was not in the spirit of the event. At the time their granted inclusion to the race was quite contraversial, and angered many people, who felt the S4 didn't comply with the conditions of entry. The S4 model was not a mass produced or readily available model. The road going 1963 EH only offered the 179 engine for sale in station wagons and autos. The 179 manual sedan was not sold to the public until the following year, 1964.

Edited by DJH, 13 August 2011 - 14:35.

[Lee Nicolle]

If you're referring to the '63 Armstrong 500........drum brakes and using Armstrong shockers were a couple of major handicaps. The Cortina GT's were really miles in front even before the race had started. I've driven both cars, the EH was pretty crude in comparison, bench seat, 3 on the tree and bloody aweful handling and brakes. They made good taxis.
I thought the Velox and Mk3 Zephyr were far better road cars, compared to the EH Holden.
I don't recall any EH having wheel or stub axle problems in '63, Muir/ Martin car dropped a tail shaft, related to shock mount problems. The EH back axle skipped around pretty badly anyway.
The Holdens didn't fair too well in '63, despite their limited run of S4 Bathurst "specials". The S4 wasn't available for public
sale and in the view of many, was not in the spirit of the event. At the time their granted inclusion to the race was quite contraversial, and angered many people, who felt the S4 didn't comply with the conditions of entry. The S4 model was not a mass produced or readily available model. The road going 1963 EH only offered the 179 engine for sale in station wagons and autos. The 179 manual sedan was not sold to the public until the following year, 1964.

I will beg to differ on that. The EHs was a good handling car, better than the heavier Vauxhall [which should of had disc brakes] And I have no knowledge of the Zephyr even competing. Whatever both were 3 on the tree bench seat cars! The Cortinas were quick little cars but did not have the top end speed of the Holden. I doubt the brakes would have been a major problem on S4s as they had sintered metal linings and if used judisiously should have been ok. The same as the tiny little discs on the Cortinas or Minis.
While the S4 was a special, it really was nothing very trick like Harrys GT500s a year later. And the S4 was a generally advailable car, just in short supply, as EHs were anyway as they were sold as fast as the could build them. And they were a good way to market the soon to be advailable 179M.
I have seen pics of a 3 wheel EH in the dipper, but dont know what broke. A wheel centre or stub. Wheel centres in the period seem to be common. Studes did, It seems Princes did. They were still doing that in the early 70s

[DJH]

The Velox was indeed 3 speed and disc braked. The Zephyr was 4 speed column and disc braked, competed 1962, 63 and 64. Never owned a Velox, had a Mk 3 Zephyr for a few years in the 60's, good comfortable and fast car for long trips.
I never owned an S4 either, but, drove many EH's over the years, like I said, they made good taxis.
If the especially race modified S4's performed in the '63 race as they did, how would the mass produced 149 CID EH, with asbestos brake linings and the steering ratio set up for easy parking ( the model the general public got ) have fared I wonder? Must have all been pretty embarassing for the General. I'm sure the original design brief for the EH never dreamt of including a 500 mile thrash around Mt. Panorama. Or did it?


"it really was nothing very trick like Harrys GT500s a year later." The GT500 appeared two years later in 1965, to combat the Cooper S. This prompted a major rule change for 1966 banning limited run specials, credit to the ARDC. The October classic was still supposed to be a production car race after all.

Edited by DJH, 14 August 2011 - 04:15.

[Ray Bell]

Wagons had 179s?

Only in automatic form. No EH save the S4 had a manual box behind the 179 in the early months. But I'm sure that it wasn't into '64 before the 170M came out for general sale.

[DJH]

There you go, only available with the Hydramatic trans.

Edited by DJH, 14 August 2011 - 14:47.

[cheapracer]

Must have all been pretty embarassing for the General.

To quote Liberace, they "cried all the way to the bank".

The EH was certainly one model that Bathurst or any other race was not needed to boost sales.

Edited by cheapracer, 14 August 2011 - 15:24.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by DJH

There you go, only available with the Hydramatic trans.

In the initial stages only...

It was always intended that the 179 would come with a manual transmission, but apart from the S4, that was not to happen until some time late in '63 IIRC. My point was that the 179 manuals were available (again, other than the S4) prior to '64 and the wagons were no different ffrom sedans in that respect.

And on the subject of EHs racing at Bathurst, Stan Stacevich was there with his Perth-based black car in '65 from memory.

[Lee Nicolle]

In the initial stages only...

It was always intended that the 179 would come with a manual transmission, but apart from the S4, that was not to happen until some time late in '63 IIRC. My point was that the 179 manuals were available (again, other than the S4) prior to '64 and the wagons were no different ffrom sedans in that respect.

And on the subject of EHs racing at Bathurst, Stan Stacevich was there with his Perth-based black car in '65 from memory.

Correct. Early EHs only came with the 149 in manual form. The S4 released the 'bigger' gearbox and soon after normal 179manuals were advailable right through the range. Sedans and wagons were common with that combo on Specials.Standards, utes and vans were it seems a special order, as were manual Premiers which were very rare. The 'bigger' gearbox was basically the same internally but the case was a bit stiffer and the bolts to the bellhousing were spread further apart. The EH and HD persisted using the EJ gearbox on 149. The 149 bellhousing also only housed an 8" clutch, not the 179s 8.6". All of those part synchro boxes were bloody terrible weak fragile pieces of crap. The grey motor box with its heavy case and integral bellhousing was stronger, and all the gears were the same. In the 70s I fitted quite a few all synchro HK on boxes[and a couple of 4 speeds] to EH-HR. A nice little sideline earner, and so I could use the car without expecting gearbox failure. I personally never broke[though had the usual noisy front bearings] an all synchro, but broke quite a few EH boxes.
Holdens in those days had two distinct body shells, the auto body had an entirely different transmission tunnel to a manual to house that huge old Hydramatic. And a different transmission crossmember. The auto body is good for fitting 4 speed Aussie boxes as everything fits and bolts straight up, even the tailshaft is right, just change the front yoke.HD on all used a standardised body shell.
An auto ute/ van was very rare but a few were made. I know of a 179 auto ute with fan heater and power brakes. Even fitted with Special interior trim. Though that car was a special order ofcourse.

If you look at those artist pics the one with the park light pic is an EJ [different grille] and all EHs were that dark grey in the boot, not body color.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 14 August 2011 - 23:49.

[johnny yuma]

The 1963 500 was before I even started buying car magazines,let alone driving,and it is a quest I've not succeeded in to find lap times from the 63 race.Certainly you could not say the EH "FAILED" as it finished second with 129 laps to the winner's 130.My guess would be it could lap Bathurst faster than the Cortina,but the usual brakes,tyres and fuel consumption maybe had it slip back over the full event.Far as I know the starting grid was not set on lap times but a ballot or something in those early races .Some of the EHs broke wheel centres,that is the bit joining the rim to the shaped bit with the wheel nut holes.
Holdens in those days were set high off the ground with softish springing for a reason,if you did many miles out of the towns and cities you'd know why.They certainly responded well enough to high speed driving but looked worse than they felt.A set of radials pumped up to 32psi was always a good idea.
In my first job Surveying the boss had an ex-PMG EH 149 ute,and we absolutely caned the crepe out of it on the Old Road to Gosford, the Bells Line to Lithgow,the Church Point road,anywhere there was a corner at all and it took 4 years of this before one back wheel broke ...I was driving,the car went spongy/weird and crunched down on a back wheel. Getting a jack under it at night and putting on the spare was interesting. But in all the hard driving it never needed a gearbox repair.
The 179 by contrast had too much torque for a gearbox really designed for the old 132.5 ci Grey motor,but the Horsepower Race started and Holden was caught out.

[GMACKIE]

If you're referring to the '63 Armstrong 500........drum brakes and using Armstrong shockers were a couple of major handicaps.

The drum brakes were fine on the VW Beetle that I drove in the '63 '500', braking well past the 100 yard sign, at the end of 'Con-rod' - lap-after-lap. Holden drums were just not good enough for the job!

As for 'Armstrong shockers', they were supplied by Armstrong, and specially 'set up' for the race......I would have dearly liked to have kept the set that were fitted to the car that I drove, but Armstrong wanted them back.

[DJH]

We all seem to be in agreement that the 179 engine with manual transmission was not available for sale to the general public at the time when entries closed for the October 1963 Armstrong 500. The other problem the ARDC had with the S4 model EH was whether sufficent quantities ( think it might have been 100, have to check ) of the model actually existed. The ARDC didn't seem to think so by all accounts, but, I'm sure GM-H would have done it all by the book.
Sounds like the General should've also included stronger wheels on the special S4 racing model.

Edited by DJH, 15 August 2011 - 04:37.

[johnny yuma]

At Bathurst in 1965 (not the 500) before Brian Muir went overseas and Ian Geoghegan went to Mustangs ,Geoghegan coaxed 2:55s out of highly modified Lotus Cortina,and Muir 2:54s from a " very improved production" EH (although Ray Eldershaw told a mate recently it never ran LSD or locker).

Edited by johnny yuma, 15 August 2011 - 06:39.

[wagons46]

Certainly you could not say the EH "FAILED" as it finished second with 129 laps to the winner's 130.My guess would be it could lap Bathurst faster than the Cortina,but the usual brakes,tyres and fuel consumption maybe had it slip back over the full event..

The EH S4 certainly did out qualify the GT Cortinas in 1963 as many a motoring magazine of the day confirms but,alas, they don't quote lap times. What's your guess....3.22 plus??

[Lee Nicolle]

The S4 was a production model made in the desired numbers. It obviously had a a heap of faults, as did all cars of the day but was still a quick device for all of that. The bigger tank and the sintered metal brakes was the performance part. I believe those parts were advailable as a special order. There is a few EHs around with the bigger 10 gallon tank. probably from country dealers.
I once read an article , 70s? about the S20 EH that never eventuated. Supposedly 4 speed twin carb with discs. It would have been a rocket for the day. All of that stuff did eventuate in HD and HRs ofcourse.

[Ray Bell]

The grid at Bathurst in the early times was based on the classes...

So the Studebakers were at the front.

[johnny yuma]

The EH S4 certainly did out qualify the GT Cortinas in 1963 as many a motoring magazine of the day confirms but,alas, they don't quote lap times. What's your guess....3.22 plus??

Someone in the John Medley book had an HD X2 at an Easter meeting in 1965,so must have been a 179,it was credited with a "class record" lap time of 3:27 which was too slow to be Improved Production record,so must have been Series Production,effectively the same as 500 entrant rules.The EH is a bit lighter and arguably handles a bit better,and although the twin strombergs on the X2 gave a bit more grunt they were a thirsty setup for a marathon event.
Better prepared cars and better drivers in the 1963 500 may mean they were very close to the 3:27 of the bog stock X2....AWAITING FURTHER INFORMATION !!!

Edited by johnny yuma, 16 August 2011 - 04:21.

[wagons46]

In 1966 in the same book Herbie Taylor's HD X2 set a class lap record of 3.24.4 and that was definitly Series Production. Was an HD X2 faster than a EH S4 ?

[Ray Bell]

Maybe, maybe not...

But there are other factors. All the same, Don Smith was quite a good steerer and his 3:27.8 would have been nearly as good as anyone could have got out of that car on that day.

I wonder how much of a part aerodynamics and perhaps gearing might have played a part?

[johnny yuma]

Maybe, maybe not...

But there are other factors. All the same, Don Smith was quite a good steerer and his 3:27.8 would have been nearly as good as anyone could have got out of that car on that day.

I wonder how much of a part aerodynamics and perhaps gearing might have played a part?

Agreed Ray ,Don Smith a good punter. The EH,HD and HR were all housebricks aerodynamically,but on Conrod the stock hydraulic valve lifters would have limited top speed first in
a stock factory early red motor of any caliber rather than wind resistance.....probably !!! ? A better top speed would have been available with the 3.36:1 diff option,but folk wisdom is most ran the 3.55:1 to assist
climbing Mountain Straight in top gear,and coming out of The Cutting in second gear. Marginal difference in top speed,but that ratio difference multiplies the torque and thus the bhp for
climbing. Any Red Motor holden from that mid-sixties era only had those 2 diff ratios to choose from.The HR Opel 4-speed was as much a handicap as an advantage,the ratios were shyte.Swings and roundabouts at most circuits.

Don Smith's HR had little discs in 1966 and an Opel 4 speed ,but in 1965 and earlier only ute drums at beat were available as "taxi-pack" option for EH or HD with kingpin front end.Perhaps not much single lap time gain
by having the HR brakes at Bathurst,although over a 500 worthwhile....but not in 1966 500, they would have been slaughtered by Cooper S like everything else !

Although Don Smith was a good punter,the likes of Ralph Sach,Geoff Morgan,Kevin Bartlett etc in EHs in 1963 were probably a tad better ....now I really want to know
who DID get the best time in 1963 !!!!!

[Ray Bell]

It's frustrating, isn't it?

But your list of drivers includes people I would never expect to be as quick as Don Smith. Ralph Sach and Fred Morgan specifically.

[wagons46]

What we do know is that the Geoghegans Cortina GT set FTD in the 64 race with a 3.21.3 so we can assume that was faster than the 63 Cortina GT times. I'm sticking with my guess that the EH S4 did 3.22 or close in 63 as we know it was faster than the Cortina GT that year.

[David Shaw]

To quote Tuckey's book:

With practice times not vital, most teams played their cards close to their chests. Unofficially, the Muir/Martin S4 was quickest at 3:29, with the GT Cortinas only tenths slower, with the Lark on 3:31 and the Velox on 3:34,.....

[Catalina Park]

I remember the first time the Holden HQs raced at Bathurst (the six cylinder HQs) there was talk of allowing the 3.36 diff but in the end they decided to keep the 3.55.
One bloke turned up with a 3.36 diff and not only did he get sent home for cheating he was slowest because of it!

[johnny yuma]

To quote Tuckey's book:

With practice times not vital, most teams played their cards close to their chests. Unofficially, the Muir/Martin S4 was quickest at 3:29, with the GT Cortinas only tenths slower, with the Lark on 3:31 and the Velox on 3:34,.....

Bill Tuckey to the rescue ! And good to see the EH faster than Vauxhall Velox as expected ! Romsey Quints rides again. It would not have taken much for the EH to have had XU1 Specs in 1963...what a car it would have been !

[Ray Bell]

For Tuckey to have those times, someone must have either reported them or kept them...

Maybe they're in Autosportsman or AMS & A or they were in David McKay's Sunday Telegraph report... the latter being very likely, I would think.

The other factor to be taken into account with regard to the variation in times year to year was the condition of the circuit. It was undergoing changes all the time, some hotmix going down, some smoothing out here and there etc.

As for Johnny's suggestion of an XU-1 spec for the S4 being achievable in the period, I think we'd have to consider some reservations.

All parts had to come from GM parts bins (like the Pontiac brakes the S4 had), so where would discs have come from? Remembering that the uprights had to change as well, I don't really think it's likely, but bigger drums would have been - again, from US models.

The inlet manifold could readily have been cast up and the twin Strombergs (as on the X2 two years later) would have been a reasonable prospect, as would the X2-type split exhaust manifold. So an extra 20 or 25hp would have been acheivable.

They might have got away with stamping some heavier wheel centres up, but I wouldn't think there would be much more improvement in the wheels than that. Unless they 'did an A9X' and fitted Chev wheels on a bigger bolt pattern.

The fuel tank is exactly what the XU-1 had, but the gearbox is a real problem. As we know, 4-speeds were very youthful in this type of car in 1963, the Vauxhall came with one about this time, but the ratios weren't all that nice. Not quite as bad as BMC's '2 low gears' type, but getting there.

'Bucket' seats from the Premier could have been used, but there wouldn't have been an LSD available, I wouldn't think.

However, just the twin carbies and exhaust would have been enough to give them a real shot at wiping the Cortinas.

[wagons46]

It's hard to beleive those times for the 63 race. A few facts support my doubt.

1. The 63 race was only 5 minutes slower than 64.

2. The fastest lap in 64 was 3.21.3.

3.The 65 race was 25 minutes faster than 64 and the fastest lap 7.6 sec faster in 65.

4.The 65 and 66 race difference was 5 mins and lap times 3secs faster.

So what we are saying is that in 64 with a fastest lap difference of 8 seconds there still was only a 5 minute gain in race time.

IIRC the weather conditions were similar on these 4 years.

Road tests of the day have the EH S4 slightly ahead of the Cortina GT in performance and we know it out-qualified the Cortina GT in 63 so its hard to accept that a 3.29 was the best it could do.

[David Shaw]

I agree that a 3:29 is slower than you would expect, but as is implied at the start of the Tuckey quote, teams weren't giving anything away. Was there official timing of individual laps in 1963? There seems to be very few laptimes available, so maybe this was being done by individual teams by hand. They wouldn't know if the driver was on a 'hot' lap, and it doesn't mention which of the drivers was in the car.

[Lee Nicolle]

Agreed Ray ,Don Smith a good punter. The EH,HD and HR were all housebricks aerodynamically,but on Conrod the stock hydraulic valve lifters would have limited top speed first in
a stock factory early red motor of any caliber rather than wind resistance.....probably !!! ? A better top speed would have been available with the 3.36:1 diff option,but folk wisdom is most ran the 3.55:1 to assist
climbing Mountain Straight in top gear,and coming out of The Cutting in second gear. Marginal difference in top speed,but that ratio difference multiplies the torque and thus the bhp for
climbing. Any Red Motor holden from that mid-sixties era only had those 2 diff ratios to choose from.The HR Opel 4-speed was as much a handicap as an advantage,the ratios were shyte.Swings and roundabouts at most circuits.

Don Smith's HR had little discs in 1966 and an Opel 4 speed ,but in 1965 and earlier only ute drums at beat were available as "taxi-pack" option for EH or HD with kingpin front end.Perhaps not much single lap time gain
by having the HR brakes at Bathurst,although over a 500 worthwhile....but not in 1966 500, they would have been slaughtered by Cooper S like everything else !

Although Don Smith was a good punter,the likes of Ralph Sach,Geoff Morgan,Kevin Bartlett etc in EHs in 1963 were probably a tad better ....now I really want to know
who DID get the best time in 1963 !!!!!

The EH was a far better handing car than any HD. And a kingpin HD is bloody terrible. The X2 though had more grunt and about another 500 rpm meaning 10mph down the hill.And probably the same up BUT it would be appreciably slower across the top to Forest elbow.
HD HR drum brakes were all the same. Drums, shoes hydraulics etc. Dont know about linings. A booster was an option.
The HR with its slightly lower ride height and 1/2" longer bottom wishbones was a far better handling car than the HD. But an EH is lighter, has far less front end weight and will always handle far better. And use a HR front end with HQ discs they are a very good handling and braking car.
And as much as I despise that horrid Opel box they are still an improvement on EH gearboxes.
HR discs are really quite average, my tatty S4 [with standard type linings by then] would outbrake an HR until the shoes got too hot and faded. Though the HR rotors were starting to shake by then anyway. As an aside the PB Vauxhall brakes I think are basically the same as HK. The HRs were basically 4 cyl Capri!

[Lee Nicolle]

For Tuckey to have those times, someone must have either reported them or kept them...

Maybe they're in Autosportsman or AMS & A or they were in David McKay's Sunday Telegraph report... the latter being very likely, I would think.

The other factor to be taken into account with regard to the variation in times year to year was the condition of the circuit. It was undergoing changes all the time, some hotmix going down, some smoothing out here and there etc.

As for Johnny's suggestion of an XU-1 spec for the S4 being achievable in the period, I think we'd have to consider some reservations.

All parts had to come from GM parts bins (like the Pontiac brakes the S4 had), so where would discs have come from? Remembering that the uprights had to change as well, I don't really think it's likely, but bigger drums would have been - again, from US models.

The inlet manifold could readily have been cast up and the twin Strombergs (as on the X2 two years later) would have been a reasonable prospect, as would the X2-type split exhaust manifold. So an extra 20 or 25hp would have been acheivable.

They might have got away with stamping some heavier wheel centres up, but I wouldn't think there would be much more improvement in the wheels than that. Unless they 'did an A9X' and fitted Chev wheels on a bigger bolt pattern.

The fuel tank is exactly what the XU-1 had, but the gearbox is a real problem. As we know, 4-speeds were very youthful in this type of car in 1963, the Vauxhall came with one about this time, but the ratios weren't all that nice. Not quite as bad as BMC's '2 low gears' type, but getting there.

'Bucket' seats from the Premier could have been used, but there wouldn't have been an LSD available, I wouldn't think.

However, just the twin carbies and exhaust would have been enough to give them a real shot at wiping the Cortinas.

Ray, EH S4 brakes were ute brakes [1/2" wider drums, same dimension as HD HR drums] with sintered metal linings. The lining would be the only Pontiac similarity, the Yanks used them quite a lot in period on all makes. A 63 Pontiac had far larger drums, shoes and hydraulics.All EJ EHs used the same uprights. The Pontiac had balljoints not king pins in 63.
EH S4 tank is 10 gallon, XU1 is 17.
The split manifold on a HD X2 and XU1 are exactly the same part. GTRs and 186S had a cast lump for the choke hot air tube but were otherwise exactly the same.
Holden could have made stronger wheel centres. Even HDs were. And Toranas were very strong, though heavier.The rim component on a 4.5" rim is the same but the 5.5 and 6" rims are heavier guage. And XU1s and some GTRs had thicker centres again. [nibless centres] No need for any other change. L 34 A9X rims are HQ rims with a slightly different offset. By that time the suspensions would maintain 14" rims and 4 3/4 PCD. And yes HQ rims are Pontiac rims but with 14" rims not 15s.
The X2 engine is good for about 5500 rpm, standard 179 about 4800 to 5000. Not the lifters as they are the same but the cam profile. X2 186S GTR 161 173 [and original 160HP XU1] are effectivly the same cam. Heads are similar in design, as is compression but induction is different.
And the horrid Opel 4 speed was around since about 61. All they did to use that was cast a bellhousing, change the clutch driven plate. As they did for the HR.
and made a tailshaft to suit. No real big deal. Though they could have imported Muncies out of the US too ofcourse which were eons better and mounted them with no more hassles. Less in fact as they are the same length as a auto.HKs did get Saginaws as a HD option on the 6. And the Muncie bolts straight on. Ratios are not great but a lot better than the Opel which was built for a torquey low powered 4 cyl.
All of this is would be could be. GMH had the parts bin for far better cars but did it on the cheap.
And most of this stuff was reportedly on the proposed but not made S20 EH anyway. They had the technology but did not utilise it .And ofcourse it would have made for more exepensive cars and the beancounters probably would not have approved

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 August 2011 - 00:58.

[Ray Bell]

The Pontiac to which I referred for the brakes was the Tempest...

The shoes were straight from the Tempest parts bin.

Pontiac (full size) cars had a larger PCD than Chevrolet and HQ, by the way. Not those assembled in Australia, as they were merely Chevs with Pontiac bodies.

[johnny yuma]

Can't see why the kingpin front end couldn't have factory discs--in fact I had Mawer Engineering make up a little steel adapter plate (Paul Bernasconi did the work) with 4 holes in 1974,bolted HT calipers on,bolt to front of stock EH stub-axle assembly where drum plate bolts on.Did thousands of miles on this,now it's on my FX front end,passed engineers inspection for blue slip.Just need to run smaller rear wheel cylinders and servo real nice on a 1 tonne car.13 X 6 inch rims fit with right offset.
If 3 Stromberg CD carbs as on 1969 XU1 were available,would they not have been available in 1963 too ?
Anyhow...have a winfield...it never happened !

[Lee Nicolle]

The Pontiac to which I referred for the brakes was the Tempest...

The shoes were straight from the Tempest parts bin.

Pontiac (full size) cars had a larger PCD than Chevrolet and HQ, by the way. Not those assembled in Australia, as they were merely Chevs with Pontiac bodies.

Dont know about early 60s but Firebirds etc are exactly the same compnents suspension, wheels, rear axle as the Camaro at 4 3/4" The only GMs I know with bigger [apart from FJ and early Vauxhalls] are PA PB PC Vauxhalls with 5". The same as as quite a few 50s and 60s English cars.
And I am fairy sure Tempests were 4 3/4 too. Early Holden is 4 1/4.
As for those shoes they are the same design, but not width as FE-EK. EH was actually the last of that design. HD on were a different design dimensionally the same as S4, as were all drum brake Toranas. All 10" dia

[Lee Nicolle]

Can't see why the kingpin front end couldn't have factory discs--in fact I had Mawer Engineering make up a little steel adapter plate (Paul Bernasconi did the work) with 4 holes in 1974,bolted HT calipers on,bolt to front of stock EH stub-axle assembly where drum plate bolts on.Did thousands of miles on this,now it's on my FX front end,passed engineers inspection for blue slip.Just need to run smaller rear wheel cylinders and servo real nice on a 1 tonne car.13 X 6 inch rims fit with right offset.
If 3 Stromberg CD carbs as on 1969 XU1 were available,would they not have been available in 1963 too ?
Anyhow...have a winfield...it never happened !

Lots of people have done that and it seems to work ok. The 'experts' say you should not do it as it binds the kingpins under hard braking. Personally I think in this case the experts are wankers as the drums often work better!! At least for the short terrm.

Remember people that a drum brake is inherently far more efficient than a disc. Its major downfall ofcourse is that it is unable to get rid of the heat generated efficiently. Though the backing plates had big holes and ducts. And the alloys wheels helped at least a little in brake cooling. Though I would not recomend these for enduance racing.But for 10 lappers no contest, drums are better.

A mates GpN XU1 has some trick carbon linings on the back, with plenty of air they are very good and have lasted about 12 meetings so far without appreciable wear. But they are a $1000 plus a set! But he can outbrake all the Toranas and the front callipers are standard LJ Torana with vented rotors and carbon pads.
On my Sports Sedan I used 10" drums for a long time with sintered metal with no troubles except wear.Replace every second meeting. The shoes tripled in price over a few years forcing me to the less efficient discs which then caused all sorts of grief trying to keep the pedal up. But 4-5 meetings on a set of pads which were 1/4 of the price of sintered metal. But a 2 3/8 piston doing probably less of a job than a 13/16 wheel cylinder. And the rotors cracked reguarly, [Valiant VH fronts] but I at least had a free supply of them. Wheras the HK GTS drums are still being used on a road car now 20+ years later

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 17 August 2011 - 02:24.

[johnny yuma]

Lots of people have done that and it seems to work ok. The 'experts' say you should not do it as it binds the kingpins under hard braking. Personally I think in this case the experts are wankers as the drums often work better!! At least for the short terrm.

Remember people that a drum brake is inherently far more efficient than a disc. Its major downfall ofcourse is that it is unable to get rid of the heat generated efficiently. Though the backing plates had big holes and ducts. And the alloys wheels helped at least a little in brake cooling. Though I would not recomend these for enduance racing.But for 10 lappers no contest, drums are better.

A mates GpN XU1 has some trick carbon linings on the back, with plenty of air they are very good and have lasted about 12 meetings so far without appreciable wear. But they are a $1000 plus a set! But he can outbrake all the Toranas and the front callipers are standard LJ Torana with vented rotors and carbon pads.
On my Sports Sedan I used 10" drums for a long time with sintered metal with no troubles except wear.Replace every second meeting. The shoes tripled in price over a few years forcing me to the less efficient discs which then caused all sorts of grief trying to keep the pedal up. But 4-5 meetings on a set of pads which were 1/4 of the price of sintered metal. But a 2 3/8 piston doing probably less of a job than a 13/16 wheel cylinder. And the rotors cracked reguarly, [Valiant VH fronts] but I at least had a free supply of them. Wheras the HK GTS drums are still being used on a road car now 20+ years later

Drums certainly "self-activate" on the leading shoe,but of course calipers don't so unless you don't mind pushing hard every time you brake you need a servo.Don't agree drums are better in a deceleration test though although comparing apples and pears is difficult. You can fit smaller master cylinder/cylinders and bigger slave cylinders but you reach the stage pretty soon where one push on the brake pedal won't shift enough fluid to activate the drums especially if they're not adjusted right up.My old street EH in 1974 with the drums would pull up once hard from 70mph then pull up left,right or reluctantly.The HT discs cured all that and were issue-free.

Digressing somewhat,some XU1 punters are using old Volvo twin-spot calipers (same bolt spacing) which just fit under 13 inch wheels.Digressing further,twin-leading shoe/ twin wheel cylinder drums a/la Peugeots and Mercedes from the early 60s were a superior drum system to drum holdens of the day. Later drum holdens claimed a "duo-servo" effect in the single wheel cylinder mechanism but it seemed no better.However,the only Holden in which I've experienced full pedal to the floor brake fade was a VN Commodore wagon (all discs of course) fully laden with family and luggage descending Mt Buffalo at an average pace.The pads were close to the metal,too much heat transfer.Bad Dad.

Edited by johnny yuma, 17 August 2011 - 05:04.

[Catalina Park]

The Volvo calipers that everyone used were 4 spots.

[johnny yuma]

The Volvo calipers that everyone used were 4 spots.

Uh yeah I only counted one side of the cal...ahh.. I'll shutup now !!

[Lee Nicolle]

Drums certainly "self-activate" on the leading shoe,but of course calipers don't so unless you don't mind pushing hard every time you brake you need a servo.Don't agree drums are better in a deceleration test though although comparing apples and pears is difficult. You can fit smaller master cylinder/cylinders and bigger slave cylinders but you reach the stage pretty soon where one push on the brake pedal won't shift enough fluid to activate the drums especially if they're not adjusted right up.My old street EH in 1974 with the drums would pull up once hard from 70mph then pull up left,right or reluctantly.The HT discs cured all that and were issue-free.

Digressing somewhat,some XU1 punters are using old Volvo twin-spot calipers (same bolt spacing) which just fit under 13 inch wheels.Digressing further,twin-leading shoe/ twin wheel cylinder drums a/la Peugeots and Mercedes from the early 60s were a superior drum system to drum holdens of the day. Later drum holdens claimed a "duo-servo" effect in the single wheel cylinder mechanism but it seemed no better.However,the only Holden in which I've experienced full pedal to the floor brake fade was a VN Commodore wagon (all discs of course) fully laden with family and luggage descending Mt Buffalo at an average pace.The pads were close to the metal,too much heat transfer.Bad Dad.

VN aka Very Nasty wagons were equipped with VB aka Very Bad brakes. That is why they do not stop!!
HD on brakes had better feel, and probably better stopping with the drums. My S4 would outstop a HR discbrake initially, and when I was having brake fade he had bad brake shudder. So really they were not a great improvement. HT Discs are bigger, thicker with biigger callipers and pads. But on a HK-HG only slow the car down. With the pedal sponging into the floor. HQ discs really solved the prolem for spirited hills driving and towing on them. And are basically bolt on stopping power. And HQ racecars stop pretty well!! Whatever the muttering rotters and announcers say.

[wagons46]

Can someone give me a call when we start discussing Holden EH's at Bathurst ?

[BMH Comic]

Can someone give me a call when we start discussing Holden EH's at Bathurst ?

Great little discussion going on over on the "Waller Thread" about the most significant WA EH to go to the mountain, maybe that will keep you amused untill you get what you want!!!

Even comes with Graphics!!!

[wagons46]

Great little discussion going on over on the "Waller Thread" about the most significant WA EH to go to the mountain, maybe that will keep you amused untill you get what you want!!!

Even comes with Graphics!!!

Don't know about being significant to those who were there , but there was an amount of amusement at the consequences of the effort.

Edited by wagons46, 19 August 2011 - 01:29.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
Dont know about early '60s but Firebirds etc are exactly the same components suspension, wheels, rear axle as the Camaro at 4 3/4" The only GMs I know with bigger [apart from FJ and early Vauxhalls] are PA PB PC Vauxhalls with 5". The same as as quite a few 50s and 60s English cars.....

I never knew the Vauxhall PCD was that big, doesn't seem right to me... but I'll take your word for it...

Now, the Chev stud pattern on Pontiacs was an 'export only' thing. I don't know when it began, but it certainly ran through the time there were Laurentians assembled here. The CKD packs came from Canada and were Chevrolet running gear (including Chevrolet engines) with the Pontiac bodies.

I can well imagine the Firebirds being Chevrolet running gear as they shared the shell and other features, though the engines were Pontiac.

As for the matter of mounting calipers on EH stubs, that would be no problem at all (as Johnny has described), but not what you'd do in a production situation. Some neat castings in the manner of the AP6, early Spitfire etc would have been in order.

[Lee Nicolle]

I never knew the Vauxhall PCD was that big, doesn't seem right to me... but I'll take your word for it...

Now, the Chev stud pattern on Pontiacs was an 'export only' thing. I don't know when it began, but it certainly ran through the time there were Laurentians assembled here. The CKD packs came from Canada and were Chevrolet running gear (including Chevrolet engines) with the Pontiac bodies.

I can well imagine the Firebirds being Chevrolet running gear as they shared the shell and other features, though the engines were Pontiac.

As for the matter of mounting calipers on EH stubs, that would be no problem at all (as Johnny has described), but not what you'd do in a production situation. Some neat castings in the manner of the AP6, early Spitfire etc would have been in order.

Only the last Oz assembled Pontis used Chev engines. most used Pontiac engines up to about 67. Early 60s ones came with both 6 and V8. There is still quite a few around doing the cruises here in Adelaide.
PA PB PC all are 5" the same as Austin A90 etc. Or Lincoln or Suxuki 4wd!

[Ray Bell]

By 'the last', do you mean just the last ten years?

Because it was nearly that long. Anyway, the point was that the Australian-assembled cars had the Chev wheel stud pattern and it differed from the original US pattern. Shane Cowham's Catalina, which he imported himself, would not accept Australian Pontiac wheels.

[DJH]

I had some widened steel road wheels made for a '63 VX-4/90 I owned, identical 14" wheel to the PB Velox/Cresta. Morton & May told me they were the same pattern as Chevrolet. ie 5 studs on a 5" centre.

Edited by DJH, 17 August 2011 - 14:13.

[Lee Nicolle]

I had some widened steel road wheels made for a '63 VX-4/90 I owned, identical 14" wheel to the PB Velox/Cresta. Morton & May told me they were the same pattern as Chevrolet. ie 5 studs on a 5" centre.

Vauxhall is 5" PCD, Chev and any Pontiacs I have had anything to do with are 4 3/4"As are HQ-WB and Commodore.

[sherpa]

Lee Commodore and HQ are not the same PCD, they are close, and wheels should not be interchanged as the studs can fail.
HQ is 4.75" 120.65mm
Cdore 4.724" 120mm
My guess is that the Commodore went metric and rounded off the figure to 120mm
Cheers Greg

[Ray Bell]

I would think it's more along the lines that tooling for the Commodore was European-based...

You are right about this, I remember George Shepheard pointing this out to me back in 1979. I guess the Commodores also have metric threads on the studs.

[Lee Nicolle]

Lee Commodore and HQ are not the same PCD, they are close, and wheels should not be interchanged as the studs can fail.
HQ is 4.75" 120.65mm
Cdore 4.724" 120mm
My guess is that the Commodore went metric and rounded off the figure to 120mm
Cheers Greg

That is incorrect, and old wives tale. They are the same stud pattern.That comes from a wheel manufacturer who should know. And yes Commodores use metric studs. But that has nothing to do with it.The majority of cars in this world use std imperial PCDs.5x 114.3 sounds very metric, its not it is 4 1/2" Ford,Chrysler, Porsche, Nissan, Toyota,Mazda and the list goes on. Though different spigot sizes. Magna, Camry, AU-FG Ford, some Mazda all use the same rim except for the spigot. And some are metric tuds, metric bolts and 1/2"UNF
Commodores have different spigots too so those wheels do not go on HQ. 4cyl Commys used Torana rims@ 4.25PCD with metric studs etc etc etc. I deal with this stuff just about daily

[Ray Bell]

Whose old wife was George Shepheard?

I'd have thought he would be a pretty good authority on these things, at the time he was deeply involved in the HDT rally effort, which used some Commodores and had an HZ or something panel van support vehicle.