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Whatever happened to Formula Three?


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#1 Xam

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 20:59

Am I alone in lamenting the loss of the high profile Formula Three once enjoyed? I am a massive motorsport fan of over 40 years, but would struggle to remember a list of the recent champions and pacemakers in this category. This from a formula that once rang loudly with names like Schenken, Wissell, Peterson, Fittipaldi, Walker, Pace, Hunt, Brise, Williamson, Jones, Trimmer, Scheckter, Maskell, Vandervell, Von Opel, ect ect

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#2 Alan Cox

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 21:25

Certainly not. There is plenty of support for the great days of F3 on here and while you may not find too many threads entirely devoted to it, it makes plenty of appearances on other threads e.g. Personal photos from the track/paddock etc.

#3 Tim Murray

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 22:04

Here's one to be going on with:

1-litre Formula 3

#4 RTH

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 22:08

In recent years it has become virtually one make Dallaras , which takes so much of the interest away. In the 60s 70s and up to the late 80s it was fantastic.

#5 LittleChris

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 22:12

I think perhaps Xam possibly didn't articulate his/her concerns quite as intended.

I also lament the fact that F3 doesn't enjoy the high profile it once had. Of recent British F3 champions, I think the only one I could name is Jaime Alguersari

#6 Gabrci

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 22:21

I think its position has been taken overy by WSR - it produced drivers like Alonso, Zonta, Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, Alguersuari, Kobayashi, etc. Every bit as good as F3 used to be, just with a different name.

#7 Xam

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 22:48

I think perhaps Xam possibly didn't articulate his/her concerns quite as intended.

I also lament the fact that F3 doesn't enjoy the high profile it once had. Of recent British F3 champions, I think the only one I could name is Jaime Alguersari

Yes, probably should have realised that I am not alone in this!

#8 Xam

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 23:03

I think its position has been taken overy by WSR - it produced drivers like Alonso, Zonta, Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, Alguersuari, Kobayashi, etc. Every bit as good as F3 used to be, just with a different name.

I am not saying that the quality of the current crop of top drivers is inferior, it is the lack of variety in the cars (eg the Brabhams looked nothing like the Lotuses, or the Marches, or GRD's, or Ensigns) the engines, etc, plus there are far too many different formulas now, for example GP3, whereas there used to be a clear cut "ladder of progress" - Formula Ford, Formula Three, Formula Two (a genuine stepping stone to grand prix racing, unlike the current catagory of the same name) and then Formula One, with Formula 5000 an interesting, and thunderous, distraction. And, we seemed to know the names of all the chief suspects in each - unlike now. As I said, something wrong somewhere...

#9 john aston

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 06:34

1 litre F3 was sublime- best ever. 1600 was dull, and the many years of 2 litre flat as fart engines was also dull but enlivened by brilliant drivers, multi chassis and the fact that British F3 was possibly the 3rd or 4th most important series in the world. Current F3 is easy to knock but although the cars are all Dallaras they are the most sublime little cars- and sound the part now too. If you doubt me go and stand at Old hall next Easter Monday and watch 20 odd psyched up young men pile into the corner...

#10 petestenning

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 06:47

I agree that the top so called formula below F1 are completely unknown to me now , where as in the 60/70/80 's i would know all the top runners in FF/F3/F2 even if i never saw them in the UK personally.

I lost interest in F3 at around the Paul Stewart/Johnny Dumfries era .

The variety of the 1 litre screamers and the drivers of that era made it so great to watch.

I miss the good old F2 races they were superb value to watch with the occasional GP drivers getting involved to set the benchmark to up and coming drivers.

:love:

#11 Giraffe

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 07:16

Once Bernie had OCD'd motorsport with his hierarchy of feeder formulae, all other categories lost their edge.

#12 Chris Bloom

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 08:36

There seems to be a confusing amount of Junior Formula these days. In the 80's going to a British F3 event at Brands or Silverstone was like a mini Grand Prix. At that time it was common for drivers to use F3 as the last stepping stone to F1 and I think that's what gave the series it's competitiveness and high profile in the motoring press.

#13 llmaurice

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 09:06

If one really follows the sport one can still see the distinct path trodden by successful F3 drivers up to F1.
Another aspect to consider is that along with the nearly £1m budget required for a season in F3 the cost of designing,manufacturing and annually uprating
these beauties is enormous.
If you thought 1000 f3 was frantic ,watch and listen the front runners of the current series but lets not forget that gone are the days when a band of enthusiasts could bronze weld or rivet a nice chassis together,modify a production engine ,buy in a Hewland ,some shocks etc. and enter the heady world of F3 because its a bit difficult to make a current tub in your shed ,stick it in a vacuum bag and attach your vacuum cleaner to it and hope to come out with a tub that can withstand the g forces of current F3.
I still think its a fantastic class which stands head and shoulders above the buy in with no talent of GP3 and "F2"that the Palmers of this world devise to improve their Company profits . Remember Palmer Audis with the one hit wonders that would appear then vanish !
If one can't accept modern F3 and its big brother GP2 its probably best that they stick to their old comfortable nostalgia where things were better back in the old days .

#14 john aston

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 10:35

Having seen both 1 litre formula I can assure you the racing was the best version of this Formula I have ever seen.It is nothing to do with nostalgia, just the fact that it was better. The current version is very exciting and fast but lacks overtaking. It is not a matter of 'not accepting' - it's a matter of fact that 1 litre version was , in your words more frantic. Not too many 2 x 30 car heats and a final now... And no, it's not as simple as following F3 drivers to F1 because few get there- I could have watched F3 till the cows came home and missed Raikkonen- and Hamilton in Uk .

Edited by john aston, 14 August 2011 - 10:36.


#15 eurocardoc

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 11:18

And for us that lived those days, we can thank YouTube for things like this. Passing? you bet ya! Everything you could want from racing, noise, smell and action.

http://www.youtube.c...re=channel_page

#16 llmaurice

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 17:15

Having seen both 1 litre formula I can assure you the racing was the best version of this Formula I have ever seen.It is nothing to do with nostalgia, just the fact that it was better. The current version is very exciting and fast but lacks overtaking. It is not a matter of 'not accepting' - it's a matter of fact that 1 litre version was , in your words more frantic. Not too many 2 x 30 car heats and a final now... And no, it's not as simple as following F3 drivers to F1 because few get there- I could have watched F3 till the cows came home and missed Raikkonen- and Hamilton in Uk .


I understand your point of view but Formula Ford was every bit as frantic as 1 litre F3 but as it still remains a "poor relation" few people will stop to look at a F/Ford car in the paddock .
I too watched the one litres after the demise of FJ and honestly feel that like todays BTCC banger racing many spectators went to see the accidents and the Dave Morgan/Hunt punch ups more than the actual racing at tracks like good old Crystal Palace.
Considering the width of Snetterton (my home circuit)say,its a darn site more hairy seeing young guns pushing 3 current F3 cars abreast round Riches than it ever was for say 5 1 litre cars doing probably 2/3rds of the speed albeit on massively over wide tyres ,accepting that they were treaded .
I do realise that a good 1 litre car in its day was quicker than our old ex-Bev Bond 713 with the awful 20mm restrictor but they are still the slowest single seaters out in HSCC despite their miniscule size and 11000 revs whereas the old Monopostos really do put on a show even the front engined versions
There aren't many events other than Caterhams where one can see two heats simply because the cost today is ridiculous .It really is out of proportion with "yesterdays" costs .Currently with Classic FF2000 we pay nearly £300 for a 20 min qualifier (NO practice ) and a 20 minute race .I remember Graham Hills 5 bob a lap runs at Brands in the early 50s yet today we can't even run a single seater on track days only on actual test days at £200 for 6 sessions .
Please accept the fact that most competitors race for their own interests and not for the "paying" spectators as Motor/Motorcycle racing is on of very few events where the competitors pay to entertain the spectators .


#17 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 17:28

I think its position has been taken overy by WSR - it produced drivers like Alonso, Zonta, Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, Alguersuari, Kobayashi, etc. Every bit as good as F3 used to be, just with a different name.

WSR? Hardly.

Alonso made his name in F3000, Zonta was a F3 champ and was in F1 before he fell back into WSR, Kovalainen was moved to WSR by Renault after failing to win in F3, Kubica did F3 and went to WSR instead of GP2 for some reason, Vettel was parked in WSR by Red Bull after F3 pending a F1 slot, Alguersari was a F3 champion, Kobayashi did F3 & GP2 before F1 but never WSR etc. WSR is a second rate series with limited competition and is in no way a replacement for F3.

F3's problem is a plethora of junior series, coupled with a formula that desperately needs shaking up. Far too much downforce, not enough power.

#18 scheivlak

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 18:06

a formula that desperately needs shaking up. Far too much downforce, not enough power.

As today's Masters race at Zandvoort showed. A boring procession preceded by some kamikaze actions at the start.
And Merhi, the polesitter who had a rather mediocre start, got into that kamikaze mode because being first at the first corner should almost guarantee the win as you can't follow another car close in dirty air in current F3. So he simply rammed the car next to him off the track.

Edited by scheivlak, 14 August 2011 - 18:28.


#19 john aston

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 18:18

I understand your point of view but Formula Ford was every bit as frantic as 1 litre F3 but as it still remains a "poor relation" few people will stop to look at a F/Ford car in the paddock .
I too watched the one litres after the demise of FJ and honestly feel that like todays BTCC banger racing many spectators went to see the accidents and the Dave Morgan/Hunt punch ups more than the actual racing at tracks like good old Crystal Palace.
Considering the width of Snetterton (my home circuit)say,its a darn site more hairy seeing young guns pushing 3 current F3 cars abreast round Riches than it ever was for say 5 1 litre cars doing probably 2/3rds of the speed albeit on massively over wide tyres ,accepting that they were treaded .
I do realise that a good 1 litre car in its day was quicker than our old ex-Bev Bond 713 with the awful 20mm restrictor but they are still the slowest single seaters out in HSCC despite their miniscule size and 11000 revs whereas the old Monopostos really do put on a show even the front engined versions
There aren't many events other than Caterhams where one can see two heats simply because the cost today is ridiculous .It really is out of proportion with "yesterdays" costs .Currently with Classic FF2000 we pay nearly £300 for a 20 min qualifier (NO practice ) and a 20 minute race .I remember Graham Hills 5 bob a lap runs at Brands in the early 50s yet today we can't even run a single seater on track days only on actual test days at £200 for 6 sessions .
Please accept the fact that most competitors race for their own interests and not for the "paying" spectators as Motor/Motorcycle racing is on of very few events where the competitors pay to entertain the spectators .

I know that FF 1600 was as frantic (I have seen scores of FF1600 races ) . In common with most serious enthusiasts I spend a lot of time looking at Formula Fords and I enjoyed talking to a couple of drivers only last weekend. I know that most drivers race for their own fun- the deal is that I pay money and watch people having fun- nowt new there . But much as I agree with you about the spectacle of young guys racing their hearts out in modern F3 , the key omission is overtaking isn't it? Best race I have seen this year was the sublime F Junior at the Classic last month. Just like FF , no aero, not much grip and not much power but bugger all weight or frontal area. It's a good recipe.

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#20 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 19:09

WSR is a second rate series with limited competition...


So like F3 then, but with faster lap times.


#21 D-Type

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 19:15

Can someone please enlighten me? I'm not that familiar with the modern hierarchy - what is WSR?

#22 Tim Murray

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 19:33

World Series by Renault - yet another of the multiplicity of one-make series:

http://en.wikipedia....ries_by_Renault

http://www.worldseri...es/Default.aspx

#23 Rob Ryder

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 19:37

World Series by Renault - yet another of the multiplicity of one-make series:

Now called Formula Renault 3.5 :yawnface:

#24 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 20:04

So like F3 then, but with faster lap times.

and with mostly mediocre no-hopers who couldn't make the grade in F3 or GP2. When Kovalainen won his WSR title, his only opponent of note was Karthikeyan. 'nuff said?

#25 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 20:21

I know you've got an anti-boner with Kovalainen, but these days WSR is at least equal talent-wise with F3, if not better. F3 is dire even in the Euroseries.

#26 scheivlak

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Posted 14 August 2011 - 21:51

and with mostly mediocre no-hopers who couldn't make the grade in F3 or GP2. When Kovalainen won his WSR title, his only opponent of note was Karthikeyan. 'nuff said?

No.

If only because Tiago Monteiro came 2nd that year who got a F1 contract the following year and Bernoldi came third, who already had quite some F1 experience behind him.
And drivers like Pla, Valles, Chandhok and Gommendy did make GP2 after that. WSR was just an alternative route to GP2, just like F3.

Apart from that, Kova showed himself an excellent driver since then of course.

#27 rkl

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 07:58

[quote name='scheivlak' date='Aug 14 2011, 22:51' post='5228826']
No.

If only because Tiago Monteiro came 2nd that year who got a F1 contract the following year and Bernoldi came third, who already had quite some F1 experience behind him.
And drivers like Pla, Valles, Chandhok and Gommendy did make GP2 after that. WSR was just an alternative route to GP2, just like F3.

Apart from that, Kova showed himself an excellent driver since then of course.
[/quote


I think that we are often influenced by "the sizzle and not the sausage". Just the same I cannot think of any F3 year that was substandard or lacking in the highest of talent. We all have our favourites. Modern F3 suffers because the standards are so high, only the occasional driver stands out because of the level playing field where the slightest mistake is cruelly judged and punished. The commitment of the drivers is some thing to behold.

rkl

#28 BRG

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 19:11

No.

If only because Tiago Monteiro came 2nd that year who got a F1 contract the following year and Bernoldi came third, who already had quite some F1 experience behind him.
And drivers like Pla, Valles, Chandhok and Gommendy did make GP2 after that. WSR was just an alternative route to GP2, just like F3.

Apart from that, Kova showed himself an excellent driver since then of course.

Sorry, but I think you are proving my point. None of those named are exactly major talents that have swept all before them. Bernoldi was even on the way down. There has never been any depth of talent in WSR. It is a backwater for people that can't cut it in teh mainstream.

Kovalainen proved nothing with his WSR championship win against poor opposition. His F3 & GP2 drives were far more convincing even if he didn't take the championships, because he was up against some proper opposition.

#29 scheivlak

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Posted 15 August 2011 - 19:22

Sorry, but I think you are proving my point. None of those named are exactly major talents that have swept all before them. Bernoldi was even on the way down. There has never been any depth of talent in WSR. It is a backwater for people that can't cut it in teh mainstream.

Kovalainen proved nothing with his WSR championship win against poor opposition. His F3 & GP2 drives were far more convincing even if he didn't take the championships, because he was up against some proper opposition.

Some drivers went up, some went down. As I said, it was a route to GP2. Not everybody succeeded, but the same counts for F3.

Once F3 was great, and greater than WSR, but things aren't that clear anymore - and certainly not this year.



#30 Duc-Man

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 09:17

Gents, there is another problem F-3 suffers from: media coverage. I don't know how it is in the UK, in Germany I noticed this year that they show the races of the F-3 Euroseries on a news-channel. The newspapers or car magazines I look at widely ignore the existance of F-3. It feels to me that the series runs and nobody really cares.

#31 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:39

Far too many feeder series below Formula One as has been said. It just dilutes what is there.
The old path of F3-F2-F1 was far easier for everyone to understand ( sponsors too...) with multi-chassis.
Anyway...for folks here unaware of what modern 2011 single seater classes look like...some of
my photos from tests and/or races this year. All one make these days, although F3 is a free chassis
formula, but few would take the risk of moving from Dallara.

In my opinion, the only one not to have fallen out of the ugly tree is the Renault 3.5. Very Fast...and
sounds glorious! Renault's were doing 55s testing on the old Snetterton before it was altered...F3s, 61s.
But GP2 are fast and sound great too with great racing, but not as attractive as the Renault..

GP3 just sound terrible...like a flat fart..but they are on Bernie's GP package ( where the sponsors want to be )
and have taken so many drivers away from F3 as already stated.

Formula 3
Posted Image

GP3
Posted Image

Formula Renault 3.5
Posted Image

Formula 2
Posted Image

GP2
Posted Image

#32 HistoryFan

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:03

I think it's also a problem that there is no Formula Series in which more than one chassis are allowed (F3 of course, but there is no really one who can fight against Dallara, so almost no one tries it).

#33 lustigson

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:13

In 2005, the GP2 Series — conceived by Bernie Ecclestone and Flavio Briatore — officially replaced the Formula 3000 International Championship. F3000 was "open specification, then tyres were standardized from 1986 onwards, followed by engines and chassis in 1996", to quote Wikipedia. GP2 started as a spec series running Dallara-Renault-Pirelli.

From 2010, the GP3 Series — introduced by GP2 organiser Bruno Michel (Wikipedia) and supported by (yes) Bernie Ecclestone — looks to punt Formula 3 off the tracks. (And judging from the F3 Euroseries entry list (21 cars) as well as the Masters field at Zandvoort, last weekend (16 cars), they're doing pretty good, never mind the FIA Formula 3 International Trophy.) And while F3 has an open engine and chassis formula (chassis' at least on paper); GP3 is another spec series, running (yes) Dallara-Renault-Pirelli.

I know two is not a pattern, but what can you say...

Perhaps Formula 3 — and maybe even open spec formula racing in general, apart from Formula One — is soon going where the World Sportscar Championship went in 1993. (Incidentally, the WSC's demise was effectively orchestrated by then-new FIA President M.R. Mosley... and Bernie Ecclestone.)

#34 Alan Cox

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:09

Anyway...for folks here unaware of what modern 2011 single seater classes look like...some of
my photos from tests and/or races this year.

Thanks for this excellent summary, Andrew. Much appreciated as I had no idea what some of these categories looked like.

#35 BRG

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 20:38

GP3 just sound terrible...like a flat fart..

Yes, how is it that a 2-litre 4-cylinder turbo can be made to sound so terrible?? I thought they were using Harley Davidson engines or something at first.

Gents, there is another problem F-3 suffers from: media coverage. I don't know how it is in the UK, in Germany I noticed this year that they show the races of the F-3 Euroseries on a news-channel. The newspapers or car magazines I look at widely ignore the existance of F-3. It feels to me that the series runs and nobody really cares.

I think that I can safely say that, in the UK at least, F3 has never, right from its inception as a 1-litre formula, received any media attention except in the very specialist press.

#36 scheivlak

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 22:33

I think that I can safely say that, in the UK at least, F3 has never, right from its inception as a 1-litre formula, received any media attention except in the very specialist press.

Except of course from the inclusion of a 1970 F3 cracker in BBC's "100 Greatest sporting moments" http://www.videosurf...1970-1228438515

#37 john aston

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 05:58

BBC used to do F3 coverage as did C4- F3 on 4 wasnt it ? Main problem is that most Top Gear watchers - who sadly are increasing in number as well as ignorance - think the only quick cars are F1 (effone innit ) and silly stuff like Zondas and Koenigeggs. They might be surprised just how quick even a Formula Renault was compared to bloated Veyron.

#38 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 07:21

Too many vested interests these days hence so many Formulae, some pointless. In a perfect world, the UK should in my opinion have a core national motorsport 'tour' of Championships over say 10 meetings, to include F3, British GT, BTCC, Formula Renault and Formula Ford. But, Porsche, Ginetta and Renault all pay handsomely to have their championships marketed on Alan Gow's TOCA package, the man who is also the top boss of Motorsport in the UK, being MSA chief. 35,000 crowd at the recent Snetterton meeting.

F3 was on the same bill as the touring cars for many years, when they had equal billing or the BTCC/BSCC was even a support race to F3. Since then..BTCC audiences have sky rocketed, some F3 meetings have had less than 1000 paying punters. It always amazes me how the clever TV people manage to make every F3 race exciting on the box..whereas most races live are so processional, and have been for years! Far too much downforce, far too expensive..you hear tales of £700,000+ per season to do F3 and most drivers need 2 seasons at it. Crazy..and has been for a long time. For the same money a lot of drivers are switching to GP3, where they can race before the GP2 and F1 teams and huge audiences for their sponsors. F2 however is £400,000 per season cheaper than F3 so they say..something is fundamentally wrong with the whole structure.

#39 llmaurice

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 09:09

Too many vested interests these days hence so many Formulae, some pointless. In a perfect world, the UK should in my opinion have a core national motorsport 'tour' of Championships over say 10 meetings, to include F3, British GT, BTCC, Formula Renault and Formula Ford. But, Porsche, Ginetta and Renault all pay handsomely to have their championships marketed on Alan Gow's TOCA package, the man who is also the top boss of Motorsport in the UK, being MSA chief. 35,000 crowd at the recent Snetterton meeting.

F3 was on the same bill as the touring cars for many years, when they had equal billing or the BTCC/BSCC was even a support race to F3. Since then..BTCC audiences have sky rocketed, some F3 meetings have had less than 1000 paying punters. It always amazes me how the clever TV people manage to make every F3 race exciting on the box..whereas most races live are so processional, and have been for years! Far too much downforce, far too expensive..you hear tales of £700,000+ per season to do F3 and most drivers need 2 seasons at it. Crazy..and has been for a long time. For the same money a lot of drivers are switching to GP3, where they can race before the GP2 and F1 teams and huge audiences for their sponsors. F2 however is £400,000 per season cheaper than F3 so they say..something is fundamentally wrong with the whole structure.


Gp3 and F2 ,both enjoy huge "boost button" benefits whereas F3 simply relies on the drivers ability to take advantage of any overtake situation he sees fit to ,hence the amounts of offs due to contact.
Its considerably easier to breeze past someone when you can gain umpteen horsepower by pushing a button!
Many saloon cars cars today have more power than an average 200bhp F3and thats why F3 still produces the real drivers because unless they're on it the whole time between 6-7000rpm approx.they're dead in the water . Its almost like modern F1 where unless you're in it you just can't grasp what its about and once again I must add that no competitor does it with any consideration of what the spectators gain from it.
F3 has stuck by its traditional roots by stipulating production engine blocks most of the gains coming from the frighteningly high compression ratios needed to breathe through a 26mm restrictor hence the low maximum rpm and thats why its is so beneficial for the aspiring driver to master as the discipline needed to keep on the boil is a definite step towards F1. Thats why F3 is still hereafter 40 odd years whereas these other currently favourable series will probably end up as one hit wonders .


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#40 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 09:51

I agree llmaurice that good drivers generally have to go through F3. As it is a free formula, with every team tweaking their cars in wind tunnels, drivers in simulators etc etc, it is also a great school for future Grand Prix engineers. But the cost is scary..some cars carry hardly any sponsorship, the mind boggles where the huge funding comes from..lots of re-mortgaging? Yes GP3 and F2 rely on buttons..but F1 does too with DRS and KERS to overtake. Just hope F3 will survive with the ever more gloomy fiscal forecasts.

#41 llmaurice

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 19:21

I agree llmaurice that good drivers generally have to go through F3. As it is a free formula, with every team tweaking their cars in wind tunnels, drivers in simulators etc etc, it is also a great school for future Grand Prix engineers. But the cost is scary..some cars carry hardly any sponsorship, the mind boggles where the huge funding comes from..lots of re-mortgaging? Yes GP3 and F2 rely on buttons..but F1 does too with DRS and KERS to overtake. Just hope F3 will survive with the ever more gloomy fiscal forecasts.


Well ,one thing we can certainly ALL agree on Andrew is the cost of F3 is astounding .
Even F/Fprd in its current guise makes you wonder if any normal working family can ever afford to do a season !
One bit of good news is that at Club level in the UK MSVR have allowed the Mono 2 litres to run with the pre ,05 F3 cars and this has resulted in a full grid on the Brands GP circuit this coming weekend.
One hopes that a number of the Mono men will eventually run as full F3 cars and thereby swell the ranks of the MSV F3 Cup further.
I just hope that F3 will survive for some years to come both the current championships , the MSV F3 Cup and the Classic F3 in UK . The few remaining screamer owners willing to race are catered for by HSCC where they have a class within Classic Racing car series .

#42 john winfield

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:03

Not technically nostalgia but a sad development nevertheless for those of us who enjoyed a thriving British F3 scene in any or all of its many guises:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105307


#43 uechtel

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:20

A great book on the subject

http://www.elfundzeh....._Formel 3.pdf

But I think it is only available in German and French language.

#44 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 10:25

Not technically nostalgia but a sad development nevertheless for those of us who enjoyed a thriving British F3 scene in any or all of its many guises:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/105307



Hells bells, what a sorry state of affairs.

As a formula it has been subject to a long and protracted decline. One might say dating back to the arrival of Dallara and the subsequent one-make appearance, but that had already happened in the Ralt RT3 days and a revival followed in the mid 80s. I can't see that happening now with so many other 'junior' formula options.

The cost have been far too high for more years than most of us can remember and the increasingly international calandar can't have helped unless there were substantial incentives offered to teams of which we are unaware? Anything that involves a channel crossing en masse is, by nature, more expensive.

With 50% of the rounds actually outside Britain you wonder why it even bears the title 'British' and if the trade's description act might be invoked by anyone who has lost out financially from this :drunk: ?

#45 RTH

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:13

Like everything else in life - the numbers taking part are directly related to the cost of doing it. At present like many contemporary racing series the organisers, clubs and circuit owners seem content to see entry numbers dwindle away until cancellation.

#46 Alfie

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:36

I have had a quick squint through the earlier postings but cannot find an answer to this question.

Several years ago, I was led to believe that the strength of British F3, when compared to many of it's competing formulae, was derived from the fact that it carried an automatic super-licence for the Champion.

Has this altered, and more specifically was the hand of one BE involved somewhere along the line in the "grading" of alternatives, because most of these issues comes down to money and who knows whom? For instance, the growth of WSR - not any pressure or leverage from Renault, surely?

#47 Bloggsworth

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 11:58

It got too expensive.

#48 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:10

7500 quid for a new front wing for a start, new from dallara. 75,000 per race meeting , 3 races per meeting over 10 meetings, yes 750,000 pounds per season, some teams have been charging drivers. But Pete Briggs from teams organisation thinks that is cheap when GP2 teams charge 2 million Euros per season, with a slight chance the driver might become an F1 Friday tester. Crazy money crazy situation. But the FIA are partly to blame as Berger seems to want a single Euro championship for F3. Support for that looks good so there is an F3 market, but not in the UK.

#49 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 13:07

The problem isn't cost but competition. If there were no GP3 those drivers would be redistributed to the various F3 series.

#50 nicanary

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 13:44

The problem isn't cost but competition. If there were no GP3 those drivers would be redistributed to the various F3 series.


I agree there are far too many single-seater series now. What never ceases to amaze me is how many young drivers there are who aspire to be a professional - presumably their budget needs to cover some sort of income for them. Where on earth is all the sponsorship money coming from? We're in the midst of an international recession, with reputable businesses going to the wall on a seemingly daily basis, and yet enough cash to cover the annual cost of running GP2,GP3, or GPTimbuktu appears to be available to so many hopefuls who almost certainly will fail to deliver the promised exposure for their backers.

I find it quite extraordinary - are sponsors that easily duped?