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X beat Y who beat Z, so X is best


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#1 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:04

A bullshit-logic concept inspired by some 'insights' I have recently read in one of the scorecards. Lets see what sort of hierarchy we can build of driver skill using the following rules;

1. A driver 'X' beats driver 'Y' in the same team, this is an absolute statement of their ability.
2. If the drivers were teammates over a number of years, we will consider the total period.
3. If driver 'Y' beats another, 'Z', we have an ultimate guide of this new drivers ability against 'X'.
4. Drivers do not get 'better' or 'worse' throughout their careers.
5. In the unlikely event of a tiebreaker, my word is final.
6. Time or era is no barrier to comparison.
7. Racing series is no barrier to comparison, but for spec series they do not need to be teammates, just same year(s).
8. If you claim that a driver beat another on any basis except FIA standings (or whichever alternative governing body is in place for other racing series), then you need to be clear about the measure employed.
9. Seriously good bullshit results may not be challenged.

We've seen this bullshit plenty of times so you all know how it works, except for the purposes of this thread IT'S TRUE. Points go to the most ridiculous conclusion. Rolley-eyes smiley to anyone who decides to take the thread, or themselves, seriously. Here's an example to start things off;

Nico Rosberg beat Michael Schumacher at Mercedes in 2010/11
Mark Webber beat Nico Rosberg at Williams in 2006
Mark Webber was beaten in F3000 by Justin Wilson

So, Wilson > Webber > Rosberg > Schumacher

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#2 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:08

I think you should offer bonus points to anyone who can untangle the Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill loop.

#3 Wingcommander

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:11

Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill = ? :clap:

woops, too slow

Edited by Wingcommander, 16 August 2011 - 15:11.


#4 Sakae

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:30

A bullshit-logic concept inspired by some 'insights' I have recently read in one of the scorecards. Lets see what sort of hierarchy we can build of driver skill using the following rules;

1. A driver 'X' beats driver 'Y' in the same team, this is an absolute statement of their ability.


Problem. It is not an absolute statement, because there is no evidence to suggest that two cars on the same team are equal in all accept in their potential. We can accept, that it is by definition as close equal equipment of two cars on the grid as we can get for all practical purposes.

Weight ditribution, tire degradation rate, set up, etc. are some of many factors which excentuate the gap between them. Differences between two cars set up could translate in time loss on each lap under theorethically equal performances of two drivers.

#5 Andy865

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:30

If I made this thread, It would be closed.

But yes, all the driver fanboy threads for 6 year olds are pointless.

Pantano > the entire f1 field.

Edited by Andy865, 16 August 2011 - 15:31.


#6 Haribo

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:33

I think you should offer bonus points to anyone who can untangle the Hill > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill loop.


Could you use that feedback loop to generate electricity? It would spin round so fast all by itself you could solve the world's energy issues in one!

#7 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:34

Problem. It is not an absolute statement, because there is no evidence to suggest that two cars on the same team are equal in all accept in their potential. We can accept, that it is by definition as close equal equipment of two cars on the grid as we can get for all practical purposes.

Weight ditribution, tire degradation rate, set up, etc. are some of many factors which excentuate the gap between them. Differences between two cars set up could translate in time loss on each lap under theorethically equal performances of two drivers.


:rolleyes:

#8 Tsarwash

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:35

Lauda > Reutemann > Alan Jones > Regazzoni > Hans Stuck > Watson > Prost > Senna

#9 King Six

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:36

Infact I nominate the title of this thread to be the title of the new section for fanclub driver and scorecard submissions. Make it a subsection for Racing Comments just like the games section. Why not?

#10 Tsarwash

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:37

Is there any driver who was never beaten by any teammate over a season ?

#11 King Six

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:38

Is there any driver who was never beaten by any teammate over a season ?

Alonso, Hamilton?

Now that I've set a fire in the gunpowder factory, time to move away and never look back.

#12 patgaw

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:38

Heidfeld > all

/thread

Edited by patgaw, 16 August 2011 - 15:38.


#13 Red17

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:38

Well, by that order Prost is better than any driver of the late 60's and 70's era because he beat Mansell who also beat Andretti who in turn... it usually ends bad.

I wholly agree, it's too much saying driver x is better than driver y just by picking up a certain period of time and generalizing all over the other time periods.

I can accept that Rosberg is performing better than Schumacher at this point, but doesnt necessarly mean he is way better (and I am a Schumacher hater). Schumacher would probably out perform Rosberg in any other motorised sport.
I am sure he is already better in wages than Rosberg.

#14 Ise

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:46

Try Pedro Diniz. Beat Alesi, who beat Berger. :p

#15 Fastcake

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:48

Alonso, Hamilton?

Now that I've set a fire in the gunpowder factory, time to move away and never look back.


Ooo you had to do it, you know Hamilton beat Alonso in 07. :p

So of course Hamilton > Universe.

#16 midgrid

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:54

Who can make the same driver appear multiple times in the same equation?

#17 Tsarwash

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:55

Stop taking this thread seriously !!

Alonso was technically beaten by Tarso Marques in 2001 according to Wiki.

So Lewis must technically be one of the best ever having never been beaten on points by a teammate. Bettar than Senna, Prost, Lauda, Schumacher, Alonso, Clark, Stewart and Fangio.

#18 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:55

Lauda > Reutemann > Alan Jones > Regazzoni > Hans Stuck > Watson > Prost > Senna

Nice :lol:

I wonder how many times we can get the same driver in the same loop so that we can show how much better he is than himself?

Problem. It is not an absolute statement,

Yes it is an absolute statement, because it's my thread and I say so.

#19 Rurouni

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 15:59

I have an idea! how about try making the longest loop. should be fun to see the result :)

edit: just read the above post. bonus internet point for someone that would go all the way and create a flow chart :D

Edited by Rurouni, 16 August 2011 - 16:04.


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#20 Zava

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:07

Is there any driver who was never beaten by any teammate over a season ?

Vettel.;)

#21 smitten

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:07

It's like the Oracle of Bacon... Show that any given driver is better than David Coulthard in 6 steps or less. :rotfl:

#22 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:18

Danica Patrick > Kanaan > Franchitti > Tracy > Unser Jr. > Marques > Alonso > Fisichella > Massa > Villeneuve > Zonta > Webber > Rosberg > Michael Schumacher

#23 DarthWillie

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:19

1980 Prost>Watson
1982 Watson>Lauda
1984 Lauda>Prost
Which is impossible since Prost beat Watson. :rotfl:


Or to stay in this thread

Watson>Lauda>Prost>Senna Watson greatest driver ever!!!

#24 Rob

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:22

Unser Jr. > Marques


Debatable.

#25 midgrid

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:25

DISCLAIMER: These examples will almost certainly not follow all of the rules above, but they were fun to do!

Vettel > Webber > Rosberg > Schumacher > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Vettel

Webber > Coulthard > Liuzzi > Vettel > Webber

Hamilton > Kovalainen > Fisichella > Massa > Villeneuve > Heidfeld > Vettel > Webber > Rosberg > Hamilton (F3 Euroseries)

Button > Trulli > Frentzen > Hill > R. Schumacher > Button

Alonso > Massa > Raikkonen > Montoya > R. Schumacher > Button > Trulli > Katayama > Marques > Alonso

Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Massa

Schumacher > Barrichello > Boutsen > Nannini > De Cesaris > Giacomelli > Andretti > Peterson > Lauda > Piquet > Schumacher

Rosberg > Schumacher > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Vettel > Webber > Rosberg

Heidfeld > Raikkonen > Fisichella > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld

Petrov > doesn't work

Barrichello > Boutsen > Nannini > De Cesaris > Giacomelli > Andretti > Peterson > Lauda > Piquet > Schumacher > Barrichello

Maldonado > doesn't work

Sutil > Liuzzi > Vettel > Webber > Heidfeld > Raikkonen > Fisichella > Sutil

Di Resta > doesn't work

Kobayashi > Trulli > Katayama > Marques > Alonso > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Vettel > Webber > Rosberg > Schumacher > Verstappen > De la Rosa = Kobayashi

Pérez > doesn't work

Edited by midgrid, 16 August 2011 - 16:49.


#26 Tsarwash

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:26

I'm trying to get Barrichello to beat Schumacher, but I'm stuck. Did Coultard ever actually beat his teammate ?

#27 midgrid

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:28

I'm trying to get Barrichello to beat Schumacher, but I'm stuck. Did Coultard ever actually beat his teammate ?


Klien and Liuzzi in 2005/06, Hakkinen in 1997 and 2001 and Webber in 2007. (EDIT: and Raikkonen in 2002)

P.S. I have already worked out a possible Barrichello > Schumacher solution.;)

Edited by midgrid, 16 August 2011 - 16:30.


#28 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:29

I'm trying to get Barrichello to beat Schumacher, but I'm stuck. Did Coultard ever actually beat his teammate ?


1997, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007. That might give you a few options.

Rule 2 might come into effect though.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 16 August 2011 - 16:31.


#29 Zava

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:29

I'm trying to get Barrichello to beat Schumacher, but I'm stuck. Did Coultard ever actually beat his teammate ?

well he beat Hakkinen in 97 and 2001, also Kimi in 2002, not talking about performance, only points if someone feels offended.

#30 Zava

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:31

Vettel > Webber > Rosberg > Schumacher > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Vettel

Webber > Coulthard > Liuzzi > Vettel > Webber

sorry, but... WHAT?
also I don't think Piquet beat Schumacher ofer the year.

#31 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:31

Debatable.


That's fine. Only the final standings count. I've had to ignore rule 2 for some of the other match ups though.

#32 jimbox01

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:32

It's like the Oracle of Bacon... Show that any given driver is better than David Coulthard in 6 steps or less. :rotfl:


Dame Ellen MacArthur > Mark Webber > David Coulthard

And by the same Top Gear logic

Richard Whiteley (RIP) > Michael Schumacher > The World

#33 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:33

Heidfeld > Vettel

Liuzzi > Vettel

Really? Refresh my memory.


#34 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:34

That's fine. Only the final standings count. I've had to ignore rule 2 for some of the other match ups though.

You get a drive-through for that.

I've been wondering whether Race of Champions is allowable. I'm thinking probably not.

#35 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:35

You get a drive-through for that.


My comeback begins here.

#36 Skinnyguy

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:36

You´re thinking too much. Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld...

#37 midgrid

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:41

Really? Refresh my memory.


Yes, I'm having to stretch it a bit for Vettel. :lol:

1. Vettel and Heidfeld were team-mates for the 2007 United States Grand Prix - Heidfeld (unsurprisingly) outperformed the rookie Vettel.
2. Vettel and Liuzzi were team-mates for the final races of the 2007 season. Liuzzi generally outqualified Vettel, and any advantage in points at the end of the season that Vettel may seem to have can be explained by Red Bull's favouritism.

:p


#38 Anderis

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:42

Vettel beat Liuzzi only during wet races in 2007. On dry circuit, Tonio was slighty faster than Sebastian IMO.

But this?

Wurz > Rosberg



#39 Tsarwash

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:42

Ok, not fair in any way but the quick way, Barichello > Irvine > Schumacher.

(In the year that Schumacher broke his leg.)

Edited by Tsarwash, 16 August 2011 - 16:44.


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#40 midgrid

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:44

Vettel beat Liuzzi only during wet races in 2007. On dry circuit, Tonio was slighty faster than Sebastian IMO.

But this?


OK, that's just a "normal" error. Fixing now...


#41 Zava

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:50

Yes, I'm having to stretch it a bit for Vettel. :lol:

1. Vettel and Heidfeld were team-mates for the 2007 United States Grand Prix - Heidfeld (unsurprisingly) outperformed the rookie Vettel.
2. Vettel and Liuzzi were team-mates for the final races of the 2007 season. Liuzzi generally outqualified Vettel, and any advantage in points at the end of the season that Vettel may seem to have can be explained by Red Bull's favouritism.

:p

both got fewer points during that period than Vettel. I thought they're playing this sport for those. :smoking:

#42 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:51

1. Vettel and Heidfeld were team-mates for the 2007 United States Grand Prix - Heidfeld (unsurprisingly) outperformed the rookie Vettel.

Heidfeld retired so you can't have that.

2. Vettel and Liuzzi were team-mates for the final races of the 2007 season. Liuzzi generally outqualified Vettel, and any advantage in points at the end of the season that Vettel may seem to have can be explained by Red Bull's favouritism.

Oh dear oh dear. You are shameless!


#43 midgrid

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 16:55

Can you please stop the thread? I'd like to get off, please.

#44 fabr68

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 17:01

This thread shows the logic of those who like to justify why Driver X has not won as many FIA prizes as his overrating would suggest.

I like to stick to the official FIA results, thank you.

#45 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 17:33

Kobayashi > Heidfeld > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Hill > Ralf Schumacher > Fisichella > Massa > Villeneuve > Frentzen > Heidfeld > Raikkonen > Montoya > Ralf Schumacher > Trulli > Frentzen > Hill > Villeneuve > Zonta > Webber > Rosberg > Michael Schumacher

#46 Nustang70

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 18:06

You´re thinking too much. Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld>Kubica>Heidfeld...

:lol:

#47 Muppetmad

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 18:56

Danica Patrick > Kanaan > Franchitti > Tracy > Unser Jr. > Marques > Alonso > Fisichella > Massa > Villeneuve > Zonta > Webber > Rosberg > Michael Schumacher


Wow, I'd love to see the explanations behind that one! :lol:

I'm guessing it's something like this...
1. Danica beat Tony in 2009.
2. Tony beat Dario at some point, I can't be bothered to look it up.
3. Dario beat Paul in Champ Car at some stage, I'm guessing.
4. Can't explain from here! ;)

Edited by Muppetmad, 16 August 2011 - 18:58.


#48 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 20:30

Wow, I'd love to see the explanations behind that one! :lol:

I'm guessing it's something like this...
1. Danica beat Tony in 2009.
2. Tony beat Dario at some point, I can't be bothered to look it up.
3. Dario beat Paul in Champ Car at some stage, I'm guessing.
4. Can't explain from here! ;)


Pretty much what the plan was. Danica was top AGR driver in 2009. Tony beat Dario in 04 at least. Dario usually beat Paul at Team Green. Paul beat Al Jr. in 97, Al Jr scored more than Marques in 99.

But really rule 2 of the thread was that you should take the overall score out of the whole time that they were teammates.

#49 aerodynamic

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 20:32

Ham only fits on the very left side of the equation. Posted Image

#50 Rob

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 20:34

Danica Patrick > ... > Michael Schumacher


Michael Schumacher > Johnny Herbert > Alex Zanardi > Jimmy Vasser > Ryan Hunter-Reay > Danica Patrick

Yay, the loop is complete!