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#1 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 02:15

There has already been a topic on 1950's goggle and helmet manufacturers:

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=goggles

but I want to concentrate on 1960's goggles.

From the early to late sixties prior to the advent of full-face helmets most Grand Prix, Indy and Can-Am drivers used the same type of goggles. (Jack Brabham was a notable exception.)

I always figured they must have been war surplus goggles but didn't think too much of it at the time. Drivers like Vic Elford and Silvio Moser who persisted with open-faced helmets started using the current ski type goggles but they just didn't fit the classic image of F1 drivers.

It really became obvious with modern vintage racers who try to match their helmets and goggles with the era of the cars they drive. From what I have seen it just doesn't work. The ugly modern open-faced helmets and the modern goggles they wear really detract from the spectacle of seeing these gorgeous cars on the track again.

I did a little research and discovered that there are goggles out there that are close to the classic style from Bouton and Bolle so you don't have to wear the ugly modern ski goggles. But I wondered just what goggles the drivers from the sixties actually wore.

Near as I can tell there were two military specifications (both American) for goggles that look like the goggles worn by drivers in the sixties. B-8 was for aviator goggles and M-1944 was for wind and sand protection for other military personnel.

This shows the goggles I am referring to:

http://www.saga-mili...9f7d3097c6a6682

To get to the point of this thread, does anyone know for sure what goggles were used by by most of the top drivers in the 1960's?

Bob Mackenzie

Edited by R.W. Mackenzie, 24 August 2011 - 02:18.


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#2 JB Miltonian

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 07:51

Buco? Baruffaldi?

#3 elansprint72

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 08:29

My old man had a couple of pairs of the M-1944 goggles which he used on his 500cc Sunbeam in the 50's; he was in the British 8th army in the Western Desert and I always assumed that he had obtained them out there but, thinking about it, his war became rather complicated after he left North Africa, so it's unlikely that was the source.
When I had bikes, I had a Jim Clark replica helmet and used the old goggles until they fell to bits.

Not much help, I know.

#4 Paul Parker

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:02

There has already been a topic on 1950's goggle and helmet manufacturers:

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=goggles

but I want to concentrate on 1960's goggles.

From the early to late sixties prior to the advent of full-face helmets most Grand Prix, Indy and Can-Am drivers used the same type of goggles. (Jack Brabham was a notable exception.)

I always figured they must have been war surplus goggles but didn't think too much of it at the time. Drivers like Vic Elford and Silvio Moser who persisted with open-faced helmets started using the current ski type goggles but they just didn't fit the classic image of F1 drivers.

It really became obvious with modern vintage racers who try to match their helmets and goggles with the era of the cars they drive. From what I have seen it just doesn't work. The ugly modern open-faced helmets and the modern goggles they wear really detract from the spectacle of seeing these gorgeous cars on the track again.

I did a little research and discovered that there are goggles out there that are close to the classic style from Bouton and Bolle so you don't have to wear the ugly modern ski goggles. But I wondered just what goggles the drivers from the sixties actually wore.

Near as I can tell there were two military specifications (both American) for goggles that look like the goggles worn by drivers in the sixties. B-8 was for aviator goggles and M-1944 was for wind and sand protection for other military personnel.

This shows the goggles I am referring to:

http://www.saga-mili...9f7d3097c6a6682

To get to the point of this thread, does anyone know for sure what goggles were used by by most of the top drivers in the 1960's?

Bob Mackenzie



During the 1950s they or something identical were sold as Panorama 218 goggles although I've always believed them to be war surplus American 'tank' goggles remarketed. Duncan Hamilton, for example, wore them at Le Mans 1953 and elsewhere and I bought a pair during the mid-60s which cost me I seem to recall Ā£2 10 shillings (Ā£2.50 in modern parlance), I think they might have been marketed as Trackstar then or something similar.

This is in my opinion a fascinating if slightly esoteric subject and whilst we are all familiar with the WW2 aviator, later evolved motorcycle split lens Lewis Mk8 goggles who recalls the very attractive and more subtle split lens Sala Sport type favoured by Fangio in 1957 and by Bruce McLaren in 1962. They used to be advertised in Car & Driver during the early 1960s and were popular with American sports car racers in period.

My apologies if I've got any brand names wrong but this is nearly 50 years on.

#5 motorsporthistoryaddict

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 09:39

There has already been a topic on 1950's goggle and helmet manufacturers:

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=goggles

but I want to concentrate on 1960's goggles.

From the early to late sixties prior to the advent of full-face helmets most Grand Prix, Indy and Can-Am drivers used the same type of goggles. (Jack Brabham was a notable exception.)

I always figured they must have been war surplus goggles but didn't think too much of it at the time. Drivers like Vic Elford and Silvio Moser who persisted with open-faced helmets started using the current ski type goggles but they just didn't fit the classic image of F1 drivers.

It really became obvious with modern vintage racers who try to match their helmets and goggles with the era of the cars they drive. From what I have seen it just doesn't work. The ugly modern open-faced helmets and the modern goggles they wear really detract from the spectacle of seeing these gorgeous cars on the track again.

I did a little research and discovered that there are goggles out there that are close to the classic style from Bouton and Bolle so you don't have to wear the ugly modern ski goggles. But I wondered just what goggles the drivers from the sixties actually wore.

Near as I can tell there were two military specifications (both American) for goggles that look like the goggles worn by drivers in the sixties. B-8 was for aviator goggles and M-1944 was for wind and sand protection for other military personnel.

This shows the goggles I am referring to:

http://www.saga-mili...9f7d3097c6a6682

To get to the point of this thread, does anyone know for sure what goggles were used by by most of the top drivers in the 1960's?

Bob Mackenzie


The goggles shown in your link appear to be the M-1944 model as made by the Pioneer Scientific Corporation of the U.S., which I believe were the goggles worn by most of the drivers. I have a set of these I found on eBay that came with its box and clear, red and green lenses to interchange as needed for light conditions. These were later produced by the American Optical Company and Bell as well. They appear to be identical to those I've seen in period photos of, for example, Bruce McLaren, so I'm fairly sure these are what was used.



#6 Paul Parker

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:21

The goggles shown in your link appear to be the M-1944 model as made by the Pioneer Scientific Corporation of the U.S., which I believe were the goggles worn by most of the drivers. I have a set of these I found on eBay that came with its box and clear, red and green lenses to interchange as needed for light conditions. These were later produced by the American Optical Company and Bell as well. They appear to be identical to those I've seen in period photos of, for example, Bruce McLaren, so I'm fairly sure these are what was used.


Thanks for clarifying this it's good to know.

For the record I found the Panorama 218 info in a 1950s advertisement. I also wonder about the other two piece goggles in period as worn for instance by Moss in 1957 which were not split lens style.

#7 lanciaman

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:26

The goggles shown in your link appear to be the M-1944 model as made by the Pioneer Scientific Corporation of the U.S., which I believe were the goggles worn by most of the drivers. I have a set of these I found on eBay that came with its box and clear, red and green lenses to interchange as needed for light conditions. These were later produced by the American Optical Company and Bell as well. They appear to be identical to those I've seen in period photos of, for example, Bruce McLaren, so I'm fairly sure these are what was used.


I was just a club racer, but first wore the split lens (relatively expensive even then, but definitely retro by 1969), and then the more preferable "tanker" style, which also was worn by military aviators in the early jet age. The M-1944 would be taped off with electrician's tape to reduce glare. They were univerally used by USAC and SCCA racers until the advent of closed face helmets, and were obtainable at speed and moto shops and through various mail order enterprises such as Oscar Kovaleski's Autoworld. Relatively inexpensive, around $5 with the various lenses; I tried using the amber lens once, then reverted to only using clear lenses. Still have one pair, with its very tired elastic band. My split-lens goggles, relegated to the "spare" category, was pinched at a race and I am still pissed over that.

As an artist, I believe the image of a graceful open Bell helmet and goggled driver is much more appealing than a clunky closed helmet figure. I salute those vintage drivers who try to get it right...though the current generation open Bell helmet is, alas, very awkward.

#8 thirtytwo

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 11:33

I bought a pair circa 1969 from Les Leston's on the Archway Rd but thats all i remember not the Manufacturer.

#9 Paul Parker

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 13:13

I bought a pair circa 1969 from Les Leston's on the Archway Rd but thats all i remember not the Manufacturer.


Do you also remember his wonderful stringback gloves with elasticated wrist band, rounded fingers and leather tips which so many drivers used in the 1960s although they quickly wore out. There were some visually identical pattern gloves in the Jaguar marketing stand at this year's Oldtimer meeting but made out of very coarse material and rather plasticy leather for some daft amount of Euros. The originals were about 2 guineas/50 bob in period or even less earlier on.

#10 Paul Parker

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 13:16

I was just a club racer, but first wore the split lens (relatively expensive even then, but definitely retro by 1969), and then the more preferable "tanker" style, which also was worn by military aviators in the early jet age. The M-1944 would be taped off with electrician's tape to reduce glare. They were univerally used by USAC and SCCA racers until the advent of closed face helmets, and were obtainable at speed and moto shops and through various mail order enterprises such as Oscar Kovaleski's Autoworld. Relatively inexpensive, around $5 with the various lenses; I tried using the amber lens once, then reverted to only using clear lenses. Still have one pair, with its very tired elastic band. My split-lens goggles, relegated to the "spare" category, was pinched at a race and I am still pissed over that.

As an artist, I believe the image of a graceful open Bell helmet and goggled driver is much more appealing than a clunky closed helmet figure. I salute those vintage drivers who try to get it right...though the current generation open Bell helmet is, alas, very awkward.


Alas even the more elegant Arai open face helmet now has an ugly rally driver style peak which has ruined its formerly attractive retro appearance.

#11 D-Type

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 13:21

In the mid sixties I had a pair of goggle sold as 'suitable for spectacle wearers'. They were similar to the M-1944 but the rubber curved out at the edges to allow thearms to run through.
Problem 1 - dust could get in the hole at the edge around the arms (this matterd on dirt roads)
Problem 2 - two surfaces to mist up when it rained

I soon switched to a visor. The dust could get in my eyes but didn't seem the problem t was with goggles - I suppose thjis was because it could blow out again.

All this on a Vespa with a top speed of 43mph (except when wind- or hill-assisted!)

#12 Glengavel

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 15:41

The goggles shown in your link appear to be the M-1944 model as made by the Pioneer Scientific Corporation of the U.S., which I believe were the goggles worn by most of the drivers. I have a set of these I found on eBay that came with its box and clear, red and green lenses to interchange as needed for light conditions. These were later produced by the American Optical Company and Bell as well. They appear to be identical to those I've seen in period photos of, for example, Bruce McLaren, so I'm fairly sure these are what was used.


There's a picture in Doug Nye's Autosport Jim Clark Profile in which the author (who presumably knows what he's talking about!) mentions Clark's "carefully taped Pioneer Scientific" goggles.

#13 Bauble

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 21:49

Why not just google, 'goggles'? He giggled.

#14 E1pix

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 22:02

Why not just google, 'goggles'? He giggled.

As am I :lol:

#15 D-Type

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 22:09

Why not just google, 'goggles'? He giggled.

Because you'll find gaggles of goggles of the wrong sort he gurgles

#16 jj2728

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Posted 24 August 2011 - 22:45

Why not just google, 'goggles'? He giggled.


and I gaggled at the oogles of goggles....

#17 grandprix61

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 01:31

There has already been a topic on 1950's goggle and helmet manufacturers:

http://forums.autosp...w...&hl=goggles

but I want to concentrate on 1960's goggles.

From the early to late sixties prior to the advent of full-face helmets most Grand Prix, Indy and Can-Am drivers used the same type of goggles. (Jack Brabham was a notable exception.)

I always figured they must have been war surplus goggles but didn't think too much of it at the time. Drivers like Vic Elford and Silvio Moser who persisted with open-faced helmets started using the current ski type goggles but they just didn't fit the classic image of F1 drivers.

It really became obvious with modern vintage racers who try to match their helmets and goggles with the era of the cars they drive. From what I have seen it just doesn't work. The ugly modern open-faced helmets and the modern goggles they wear really detract from the spectacle of seeing these gorgeous cars on the track again.

I did a little research and discovered that there are goggles out there that are close to the classic style from Bouton and Bolle so you don't have to wear the ugly modern ski goggles. But I wondered just what goggles the drivers from the sixties actually wore.

Near as I can tell there were two military specifications (both American) for goggles that look like the goggles worn by drivers in the sixties. B-8 was for aviator goggles and M-1944 was for wind and sand protection for other military personnel.

This shows the goggles I am referring to:

http://www.saga-mili...9f7d3097c6a6682

To get to the point of this thread, does anyone know for sure what goggles were used by by most of the top drivers in the 1960's?

Bob Mackenzie

Well this is what the fellows were wearing at Indianapolis in the early 60's. Not sure who they belong to but they were sitting on a roadster. These days all you see is the top of a head. Ron N. www.classicvintagemotorsports.com you will find more examples here.
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#18 David Lawson

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 07:44

As others have said the Pioneer goggles were very commonly used in the 1960s and many portrait photographs clearly show that lettering along the top of the goggles.

Looking through some books last night I noticed a couple of pictures of Dan Gurney and Jim Clark where you can see Polaroid written on the top of the surround but they are the same design as the Pioneer, was this a different type of goggles or was there a tie up between Pioneer and Polaroid?

David

#19 lanciaman

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 10:56

As others have said the Pioneer goggles were very commonly used in the 1960s and many portrait photographs clearly show that lettering along the top of the goggles.

Looking through some books last night I noticed a couple of pictures of Dan Gurney and Jim Clark where you can see Polaroid written on the top of the surround but they are the same design as the Pioneer, was this a different type of goggles or was there a tie up between Pioneer and Polaroid?

David


Perhaps Polaroid made the plastic lenses, since "polarized" spectacle lenses were the thing. ?? I will go see if mine say anything....

Mine from 1970 say BOUTON in raised letters on the top surround. They have more vent holes than shown above (which caused a problem because I got dust in my eyes during a race ...wearing contact lenses).

Edited by lanciaman, 25 August 2011 - 11:03.


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#20 Paul Parker

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 11:27

As others have said the Pioneer goggles were very commonly used in the 1960s and many portrait photographs clearly show that lettering along the top of the goggles.

Looking through some books last night I noticed a couple of pictures of Dan Gurney and Jim Clark where you can see Polaroid written on the top of the surround but they are the same design as the Pioneer, was this a different type of goggles or was there a tie up between Pioneer and Polaroid?

David


Perhaps there was no patent on the design or alternatively those who produced and marketed these goggles paid a licence fee to the existing patent holder, somebody will know.

#21 D-Type

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 13:52

Surely there isn't really anything unique about a pair of goggles that anyone could patent.



#22 Paul Parker

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 14:06

Surely there isn't really anything unique about a pair of goggles that anyone could patent.


I'm only guessing as I have no knowledge of the patent process but the 'goggles' in question being constructed mainly of rubber and plastic were/are fundamentally different from their glass and leather contemporaries and if they originated from America I would have expected the specific design to be protected by copyright if that is applicable in this instance.

Somebody qualified please comment or correct me.






#23 R.W. Mackenzie

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 23:15

If the goggles were made to the M-1944 military spec then I doubt they were patented. The military usually has multiple sources for their equipment.

The closest thing that is available these days are the Bouton 450 goggles. They have a version to firefighting specifications and two versions (vented) and non-vented for industrial use. There also appears to be a very similar looking military goggle made by Rothco.

These are what the Bouton 450 goggles look like:

http://searchgear.co...px?productId=86

The only difference from the classic 60's goggles seems to be that the strap doesn't go through the lens on each side.

Thanks for all of the responses to this topic. It's something I've wondered about for some time.

There are also reproduction Buco helmets on the market now which would complete the classic sixties look but unfortunately I don't believe they have any kind of safety certification so they couldn't be used in vintage racing.

Bob Mackenzie

#24 Paul Parker

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 07:45

If the goggles were made to the M-1944 military spec then I doubt they were patented. The military usually has multiple sources for their equipment.

The closest thing that is available these days are the Bouton 450 goggles. They have a version to firefighting specifications and two versions (vented) and non-vented for industrial use. There also appears to be a very similar looking military goggle made by Rothco.

These are what the Bouton 450 goggles look like:

http://searchgear.co...px?productId=86

The only difference from the classic 60's goggles seems to be that the strap doesn't go through the lens on each side.

Thanks for all of the responses to this topic. It's something I've wondered about for some time.

There are also reproduction Buco helmets on the market now which would complete the classic sixties look but unfortunately I don't believe they have any kind of safety certification so they couldn't be used in vintage racing.

Bob Mackenzie


Thank you for raising this issue in the first place that has given us all some information on something that I've always found interesting.

As for replica helmets these of course could never be given certification as their very size and construction means that they cannot pass the various tests and regulatory requirements. Just how far head protection has come is apparent if you put one of these mid-late 60s Bell or Buco open face lids alongside their much bigger, wider modern equivalents.

#25 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 15:18

I do like the look of Jackie OliverĀ“s helmet.
Any idea which make it is ?

Edit - sorry - you have to scroll up a bit, link only shows my question from a few weeks ago... :blush:

Edited by Ralf Pickel, 26 August 2011 - 15:19.


#26 Paul Parker

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 16:52

I do like the look of Jackie OliverĀ“s helmet.
Any idea which make it is ?

Edit - sorry - you have to scroll up a bit, link only shows my question from a few weeks ago... :blush:


That is the previous version of the Arai open face helmet that has had its anti glare strip removed from the bottom of the clip on peak. It has now been superseded by one with, in my opinion, a big ugly, rally style peak.

#27 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 17:20

Thank you, Paul.
I was hoping for some current product which does look a tiny bit period correct and would even please the FIA scrutes...should have known better ! :)

#28 Paul Parker

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 20:49

Thank you, Paul.
I was hoping for some current product which does look a tiny bit period correct and would even please the FIA scrutes...should have known better ! :)


I've bought two of these helmets the first in 2000 or thereabouts, the second circa 2005 because they fit my head perfectly. Additionally I don't know if the earlier snap on peaks will fit the latest helmet but in my opinion the Arai is more comfortable to wear than other makes, at least for me.

Perhaps the answer would be remove the peak from the latest helmet and go for the Jim Clark look 1963 vintage.

#29 T54

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 03:11

I was hoping for some current product which does look a tiny bit period correct...

There are some out there, but they do not meet the impact standards and are strictly for cosmetics. As far as the goggles, the ones with glass lenses are especially dangerous... like the British "Mark" , the italian Baruffaldi or the German Winters.

As far as helmets, THESE are safe, even if not quite what the old look used to be, and THESE goggles have I believe, polycarbonate lenses, making them safer than glass.

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be..." :)




#30 Ralf Pickel

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 07:07

Thanks for the infos - a few weeks ago I was looking for a suitable openface helmet for my entry at Solitude Revival.
So, a quick decision to buy that. Reasonably priced for the purpose and I had it painted black with a green stripe (my usual colours). I also painted the peak that it would look more like the small older ones - just green for the peak and black for the remaining plastic.
Together with my older Bolle goggles more or less ok.
And, thanks to this thread, I have now also bought these.


#31 Garsted

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 19:29

Thank you, Paul.
I was hoping for some current product which does look a tiny bit period correct and would even please the FIA scrutes...should have known better ! :)


How about these ? http://www.gprdirect...omp-ghibli.html

I see Bell are now doing a replica of the classic Bell Star early full face helmet, perhaps they will follow it up with a classic look open face one.

Steve