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Ayrton Senna is overrated !


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#1 B.Traven

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 20:38

No one can deny that Senna was one of the great ever, but I think his fans exaggerate his talent.
OK , no doubt he was good , but not SOOOOO good .
Maybe it’s because he died in such dramatic form, in a season that he had strong opposition. Although driving his dream car, Williams/Renault, (one that he once described as “from other planet”), at the moment of his death, the score was: Schumacher 2 X Senna 0.
Including the 1994 Brazilian GP...
In order to increase the value of the Brazilian, many of his fans use to say that he ever had strong competition from his teammates. It’s not true. The only competent teammate Senna ever had was Prost.
Berger does not count. In terms of driving skills the Austrian was just average , on the level of Boutsen , Herbert ,Coulthard, Barichello or Irvine ( for 10 years Berger had at his disposition such superb machines as Beneton/BMW , Ferrari , MacLaren/Honda and Beneton/Renault, but only has achieved 10 wins on his entire career ).
OK , besides Berger and Prost, he had among his contemporaries Mansel, Piquet, Alboretto, Patrese...
However, what kind of car they were driving?
Senna clinched his 3 titles at the wheel of a car that was overwhelmingly superior to the rest of the field.
In terms of cars, most of the time there was no real opposition for the McLaren-Honda .
Besides the MH , the grid was made by the Ferrari (a car with a powerful engine but lousy chassis, that some day Prost would describe as “firemen truck”), a couple of cars with good chassis but weak motors (Beneton/Ford V-8 and Williams/Judd V8 - later Williams used the Renault V10 in its infancy, with huge reliability problems), and such aberrance as RIAL/Ford V-8, Lola/Lamborghini, Lotus/Judd, Zakspeed/Zakspeed, Dallara/Ford-v8, AGS/Ford V-8, Minardi/Motori Moderni, Minardi/ Ford V-8, Osella/Alfa Romeo, etc.
Even the so much stressed “internal” competition with Prost maybe wasn’t so effective after all. The Frenchman many times complained that his engine was less powerful than the unit Honda put in Senna’s car. Very likely since it’s well known that the Brazilian was the darling of the Japanese, including old man Sochiro himself.






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#2 Toxicant

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 21:59

Everyone thought he was magic, why do you bother with such posts?

Simply the best.

#3 hyper!! james

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:08

When did a driver last win a title in a car that wasn't the best or at least one of the best of that season?

#4 911

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:18

Hmmm.

3 WDCs, 65 Pole Positions & 41 GP Wins: Yes, I could see how Senna was overrated.

By the way, did you actually see any F1 races in 1990 & 1991? The Ferrari was arguably the best chassis in '90. Prost won 5 Grands Prix that year. The same could be said with the Williams in '91. From the 2nd race of the year, Senna said that the Williams was unbelievably competitive. Had Mansell been a bit luckier that year (Canada, Brazil, Portugual), he might have won the WDC.

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#5 magic

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:28

hey B.Traven,

why don't you stick to vintage motorcycles & women?

even ms thinks senna was great.

#6 B.Traven

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:32

It was the car...

#7 hyper!! james

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:36

It takes a good driver to make a good car work to it's full potential. Not any old idiot can push the best machinery to it's limits.

It's like taking out a couple of Man Utd's key players and replacing them with Sunday League pub team boys. They couldn't handle the pace and Utd would be slaughtered.

#8 magic

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:43

prost had the same car and was slower.

was prost overoverrated?

#9 F

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:48

Senna was champ when the driver were important, today the driver is something like a rock-star... a guy who knows how to turn left/right push pedals and many buttons quickly (..and let the "software" do the rest).

#10 B.Traven

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:55

Magic ,

I can't understand this double standards.
When Schumacher is faster than his teammates it isn't because the team gave him preferential treatment ?
Now , what Prost affirms is that Honda was giving Senna previleged attentions :)

BTW : It was the car
[p][Edited by B.Traven on 02-01-2001]

#11 kenny

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:03

B.traven...

Were you is Senna's car during that time...
Did you get the chance to drive all the different cars during the period... if yes... you're right it was the car...

Otherwise, what do you know!???

#12 B.Traven

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:13

Kenny ,

And what do you know ? :)
And what anybody in this forum knows for sure about the subject ?
It's just a opinion ,pal ! It's just for fun ! :)

#13 Dudley

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:27

the grid was made by the Ferrari (a car with a powerful engine but lousy chassis


Actually one of my most vivid memories of F1 is a GP at Jerz in 1989. Gerhard Berger's Ferrari was following one of the the McLaren-Hondas for several laps.

He would close right up over the course of the lap, but the 2nd they got on the main straight the McLaren was just GONE.

#14 AlesiGOD

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:27

Traven... in my mind Senna is the best driver I've ever seen, Schumacher is the secondbest... my opinion ofcourse...

#15 argos

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:30

Is Ayrton Senna overrated? I've always thought he was.

#16 scokim

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:32

argos, how should senna be rated ? on par with which driver we can identify with ?

#17 AlesiGOD

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:42

In terms of talent...

#18 bleakuzs

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:50

I agree, everyone on this BB is on Senna's balls.

If he was so special, why did Senna feel the need to ram Prost to win a title. Why did not win more championships before he died, if he was teh best ever.



#19 MacFan

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:51

In terms of driving ability, Senna was quite simply one of the very best there ever has been or ever will be. What he acheived with McLaren-Honda was impressive, even though it was the best car from 1988 to mid 1991. His results and performances with Toleman, Lotus and McLaren-Ford, none of them the best cars of their time, proved his ability. Just don't get me started on his ethics...

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#20 scokim

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:52

Originally posted by bleakuzs
Why did not win more championships before he died, if he was teh best ever.


answered your own question ?

#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 23:53

NEWSFLASH!!!

90% of the F1 grid is UNDERrated

#22 senninha

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 02:08

Senna is UNDERRATED !!!!

just imagine if he had driven for Ferrari ...

#23 Williams

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 02:46

B.T. the very first sentence of your post betrays the total invalidity of your position. "No one can deny that Senna was one of the great ever (whatever that means), but I think his fans exaggerate his talent."

How can a driver be one of the "great ever" and be overrated ?

Anyway, for the reading pleasure of BB, is an excerpt from "Remembering Ayrton Senna", by Alan Henry, which takes a crack at the question "Was he the Greatest ?"

Jo Ramirez, the McLaren Fl team co-ordinator recalls meeting Senna for the first time. He was testing at Silverstone in 1981 with Emerson Fittipaldi, Brazil’s senior Fl star who by then had retired to run his own rather disappointing Fl team. “Ayrton came to talk to Emerson,” he remembers, “and when he left, Emerson said to me, ‘You’ve just met a guy who will be one of the greatest one day.’ After a remark like that from him, I started to follow Ayrton’s career pretty closely.”

Did Ramirez ever feel he got to understand what made Senna tick? “I hope I did, but sometimes I wondered,” he pondered. “He was an incredibly intense person. One of his great qualities was his incredible will to win. I’ve never seen that sort of determination in anybody else ever. “The difference between him and Prost was that Alain, in a car he that he liked, that he was happy to drive, was untouchable, unbeatable. But Ayrton at the end of the day could drive anything, no matter how badly it was handling.

“That was the case in his last race at Imola. That Williams FW16 was not a car that should have been in pole position: it was there because Ayrton was in it. Schumacher said that he could see that Senna had problems with the car, and anybody else might have waited a little. But Ayrton was born to lead, to be first, to be the fastest. That was just the way he was, and it was never going to change. I sup-pose I would have to say that you never thought [an accident] would happen to people like that —the Prosts, Stewarts, Rosbergs. They were past all that. “Yet if it was going to happen to anybody it was probably going to happen to Ayr-ton, and I used to think about it because he was that sort of guy. Even if he knew the car couldn’t do it, he would try to get over it. His determination was unbelievable. He would try to force the car to do more than it wanted to do.” Ramirez also had glimpses of the sensitivity and emotion that Professor Watkins identified in Senna outside a pure motor-racing enivronment. One of the most intense moments in their relationship came before the start of the 1993 Australian Grand Prix at Adelaide, where Ayrton had performed sensationally in practice to put the Ford V8-engined McLaren MP4/8 on pole position.

It was Senna’s final race for the McLaren team before he switched to Williams for 1994, and as Ramirez recalls, the enormity of the occasion almost overwhelmed the two men. “Just before the start of the race he called me over to do his belts up,” recalls Ramirez. “I thought it was a strange thing to do as he always used to do the last pull on the belts himself, using both hands. So I came in close to the cockpit and realized he didn’t want that. He said, ‘It’s strange for me to do this for the last time in a McLaren.’ I replied, ‘If it’s strange for you, it is also very strange for us as well. If you win this one, I will love you forever.’ Then he grabbed my arm, and I could see that there were tears in his eyes. I was actually quite worried that I had got him a little too emotional before the start.”

Senna’s emotional reactions in the heat of battle were also seen by many as a key shortcoming. In the 1993 British Grand Prix at Silverstone, Damon Hill’s Williams got away cleanly from the start to take an immediate lead, leaving Senna’s McLaren to box in Prost in third place. For the first few laps Ayrton drove like a man possessed, pulling all sorts of outrageous stunts in his quest to keep his rival behind.

This was irrational. There was no way in which the McLaren—Ford could compete that way, but Senna just couldn’t bear to let Prost through. It was an afternoon when the Brazilian driver’s innate competitiveness strayed into the realms of personal vindictiveness. Even his most ardent fans claimed he was out of order.

Ironically, earlier that same season Hill had pulled a similar stunt on Senna as they went into the first corner at Jmola. Later the Englishman was called in front of The Master for a dressing-down. Damon just said that he’d learned all about racing tactics from Ayrton. “I don’t think there was much he could say to that,” recalled Hill afterwards.

At Suzuka in 1994 Senna was also badly held up behind Eddie Irvine’s Jordan, the Ulsterman taking part in his very first Grand Prix and dicing with Damon Hill for sixth place. After the race he became involved in an amazing altercation with Irvine that ended with Senna striking him on the side of the face. Irvine may have been insufficiently deferential, but Senna’s loss of control was yet another of those tiny glitches that emerged from time to time throughout his career to suggest that perhaps he was not, after all, the complete and rounded tal-ent some believed. He paid for his impulsiveness when the sport’s governing body punished him with a three-race suspension. Characteristically, Senna was outraged, feeling that he had been very hard done by.

His arrogance came to the surface a fortnight later when he refused to discuss the matter with the British press in Adelaide, allegedly because they had been unsympathetic in their treatment of his row with Irvine. A few years earlier, at the same race, he had lost his cool during a television interview with Jac-kie Stewart when the former champion suggested that he’d been involved in rather too many accidents during his career than appropriate for a man of his status.

It has also been suggested that his reluctance to test during the winter sometimes worked against him. Perhaps so, but the evidence is that he could switch himself onto a competitive pace instantly, without any need to limber up.

Jo Ramirez recalls one particular McLaren test session at Budapest’s Hungaroring circuit when Jonathan Palmer, then the team’s best driver and now part of the BBC Grand Prix television commentating team with Murray Walker, was the team’s de-velopment driver. “Jonathan had covered about six-ty-five laps when Ayrton arrived,” says Jo, “and since he was going to take over testing the following morning, we asked if he could go out and do a lap or two just to establish whether he wanted any gear-ratio changes, or other adjustments, which we could do overnight.

“He did just a single flying lap and was two seconds quicker. Jonathan was just destroyed.” It was an experience that Gerhard Berger could relate to when he first joined McLaren. While Senna spent the winter of 1989-90 resting up in Brazil, Berger submitted himself to a punishing physical regime and testing, testing, testing. He went into the new season absolutely convinced he was capable of taking on Senna in a head-to-head. But at the first race Ayrton breezed in from his holiday and took him apart.

It came as quite a shock to the pleasant Austrian, but once he came to terms with the fact that all he could do was compete for the title of ‘Best of the Rest’ in Senna’s wheeltracks, he developed into a competitive, formidable driver. After three years alongside Senna at McLaren, Berger believed he had become a much better driver just by being close to such a genius and studying the way he operated.

Race fans, and Senna’s rivals, will argue for years over whether or not he was truly the greatest. But many of the mechanics and engineers who worked with him have little doubt. They were inspired and motivated by the force of his remarkable personality, his fundamentally warm disposition and his focussed energy. Perhaps the last word should go to Professor Watkins, whose observation reveals that there was still, endearingly, something of the Little Boy Lost in this Man Child who so often shielded his inner feelings from the outside world behind an seemingly granite edifice.

“Was he the greatest? I think he was the fastest, hut he still lacked maturity of cunning. Despite the fact that I talked to him a thousand times about not going so fast and, instead, trying to win races at the least possible speed, he never took the blindest bit of notice. But on one occasion he did admit that whenever he passed my medical car out on the circuit when he was doing something he shouldn’t have been doing, he felt a bit guilty!”

Benjamin Disraeli once said of Gladstone: “He has not a single redeeming defect.” Perhaps, in the end, that was the attraction of Ayrton Senna. But it was the fact that he was all too human that made his supernatural ability in racing cars so beguiling-ly memorable.



#24 bleakuzs

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 06:19

Realistically Senna had 8 season's to win cahmpionhips, he won 3. If he clearly outpaced everyone, why did Senna not win more than 40% of the cahmpionships availible to him? He clearly should of won 60%, or 2 more if he was god in a racing car, as many people seem to believe.

Because of the necassent badgering about who was/is the best, this driver sucks that drivers hangy bits. The only thing that matters are the cars, and thats all I care about. If Senna was driving an Osella, AGS, Zakspeed, Rial, Leyton House, Onyx, Footwork, March, Fondmetal, etc., would Senna have accomplished what he did?

Drivers are overated to begin with, they have to have a car that can perform before they can challenge.

#25 colejk

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 06:41

Is Senna overrated?...

Hell yes! He was an arrogant cheating b**tard.

He was quick and fast but not worthy of 3 world championships.

1. 1988 he won due to more wins than Prost even though Prost had more points. (shitty way to win)
2. 1990 well...does the unthinkable...and intentionally rams his way to victory (premeditated)
3. 1991 won due to poor Mansells lack of luck and intelligence (But yes Senna did win this one fair and square)

Face it the only reason he is so famous is because he is dead, a la Picasso.

Christ, half the Senna worshippers never even saw him race.
The one Senna quote that sticks out in my mind the most,
was when he offered to drive the "Williams for free" just to have the best car. What a abosolute crybaby. All the years that Mclaren gave him, 2 championships and he says this.

No class. But he is still regarded as such a hero. yeah...right.

#26 magic

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 06:45

http://www.atlasf1.c...?threadid=14166

#27 scokim

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 07:30

the fact that i have not heard one racing commentator, team owner or driver said that he's overrated speaks for itself. i would rather go with their professional judgements than some keyboard F1 drivers here.

people can use statistics, incidents to discredit him but in the end they're in a tiny minority.

senna fans should not even bother to entertain such debate.

speaking of statistics, anyone knows how many years Prost was in F1 to win 4 champioships ? I don't have that stat with me.

if we want to compare MS with Senna based on stats then MS has more SUCCESS. this is largely due the lack of rivals. MS only has one rival per season to deal with thus far. Senna was battling in the 'gang of five' for most part of his career.

#28 argos

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 07:36

Originally posted by argos
Is Ayrton Senna overrated? I've always thought he was.

Originally posted by scokim
argos, how should senna be rated ? on par with which driver we can identify with ?

Originally posted by AlesiGOD
In terms of talent...

Not long ago a forum thread (I don't remember which forum) asked for people to name their top ten grand prix drivers of all time. I'm going from memory but I think my list was, in more or less chronological order:

1) Rudolf Caracciola
2) Tazio Nuvolari
3) Bernd Rosemeyer
4) Alberto Ascari
5) Juan-Manuel Fangio
6) Stirling Moss
7) Jimmy Clark
8) Jackie Stewart
9) Ronnie Peterson
10) Niki Lauda

It was really tough leaving some drivers off the list but I feel comfortable with it as is. I have personally seen Clark, Stewart, Peterson and Lauda. When I was young I knew an older gentleman who had seen all the great drivers of the past. He could tell story after story about Caracciola, Nuvolai, and all the other great drivers of the time. Of course this peaked my interest and I've read as much as possible about this era of grand prix racing and the drivers. It is based on this that I have included drivers that were competing before my time on my list.

Now to my original assertion that Ayrton Senna was and still is overrated. Since Clark, Stewart, Peterson and Lauda I have not seen any drivers that I felt were better than these four. Yes I certainly did consider the likely candidates such as Gilles, Nelson, Alain and Ayrton, among others. Since we're discussing Ayrton Senna I'll focus on him.

Before his death and even more since, people have been declaring Senna to be the greatest ever, a driving god who had no real competition. There's no denying Senna was fast. In some ways he reminded me of Ronnie Peterson or Niki Lauda before his near fatal crash at the Nurburgring. Back then, if they could get the Ferrari running well Lauda was nearly unbeatable. Ferrari in the 70's tended to have very fast but tempremental cars. Ronnie Peterson was one of the most entertaining drivers to watch. He would fly into a corner at incredible speeds yet he was able to somehow stablize the car, get the power down and fly out of the corner. I think he drove a F1 car on the edge more than anyone else I've seen.

OK, so I've compared Ayrton Senna with drivers who IMHO are among the fastest ever. My criticisms of Senna would be that he was a one-dimensional driver. While he drove very fast, he was extremely hard on his equipment. During his career he had an incredible number of DNF's. Some will say it's because he had unreliable cars but if you compare the number of Senna's DNF's with the number of his team mates, Senna nearly always had many more. The only way Senna could win was to go flat out, hope to out run everyone else and hope his car held together. Sometimes it takes more than speed to win a race. Sometimes you have to win with your head. Once again Niki Lauda is a good example. After his crash at Nurburgring, Lauda was never quite as fast. Still, by using his head, he went on to win two more WDC's. Jimmy Clark and Jackie Stewart are also good examples. Both could drive as fast if not faster than anyone else when it was needed but they often drove fast enough to win but slow enough to ensure their car finished the race. Clark drove the fast yet notoriously unreliable during his entire F1 career. After a race his mechanics would find very little wear on his car. His brake pads and tires would look almost new while Graham Hill's would be used up.

As far as Ayrton Senna's place in history, there's no question that he ws one of the stars of F1 during the late 80's and early 90's. While I am partial to F1 in the 60's, I did very much enjoy seeing Senna, Prost Mansell and Piquet battle it out for the WDC during that period. IMHO it was one of the more entertaining eras of F1. Senna raced ten full grand prix seasons and won three WDC's. That in itself is quite an accomplishment, but during the same period Prost won four WDC's, and Lauda, Piquet and Mansell won one WDC each. If Senna was really the best ever, If he really was the god of F1 driving, then how did these other drivers have as much success as they did during Senna's time in F1? IMHO it's because Senna was not the best ever and not a driving god.

In the end I believe Ayrton Senna was one of the best drivers during his time in F1. Overall I believe he is one of the better drivers to compete at the grand prix level but I don't consider him one of the greats. Other drivers I might include in the same catagory: Giuseppe Farina, John Surtees, Jack Brahbam, Graham Hill, Jochen Rindt, Emerson Fittipaldi, Nelson Piquet and Alain Prost.

I would welcome intelligent comments or criticisms of my post and would enjoy a calm, rational discussion. I don't require agreement with what I've written to discuss it, only civility.

#29 Daemon

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 07:42

I'd say Senna is about as overrated as drivers such as Alain Prost, Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, Michael Schumacher, Mika Hakkinen and JM Fangio.

It's all a matter of personal opinion, as with every aspect of life, and you can rest assured that the driver you pesonally beleive is the best, IS.[p][Edited by Daemon on 02-02-2001]

#30 magic

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 07:45

_______

1) Rudolf Caracciola
2) Tazio Nuvolari
3) Bernd Rosemeyer
4) Alberto Ascari
5) Juan-Manuel Fangio
6) Stirling Moss
7) Jimmy Clark
8) Jackie Stewart
9) Ronnie Peterson
10) Niki Lauda
______

hmmm... on your list the most recent driver retired in '85.

the real connaisseurs voted prost the best driver of the 20est century.

is this list based on their driving skill or ethics?

#31 Daemon

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 07:51

Anyone who calls themselves an F1 connisseur is a complete ********. What university did they get their Masters in Formula 1 Degree from?

The only man I would think that has a right to call himself such, is Murray Walker.


#32 scokim

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 07:52

Originally posted by argos

1) Rudolf Caracciola
2) Tazio Nuvolari
3) Bernd Rosemeyer
4) Alberto Ascari
5) Juan-Manuel Fangio
6) Stirling Moss
7) Jimmy Clark
8) Jackie Stewart
9) Ronnie Peterson
10) Niki Lauda

Senna raced ten full grand prix seasons and won three WDC's. That in itself is quite an accomplishment, but during the same period Prost won four WDC's, and Lauda, Piquet and Mansell won one WDC each. If Senna was really the best ever, If he really was the god of F1 driving, then how did these other drivers have as much success as they did during Senna's time in F1? IMHO it's because Senna was not the best ever and not a driving god.


We can question how the list above got compiled (i can only recognise Lauda as a modern era driver). I've seen magazines that ranked the best drivers of the last century and those in the MODERN era were included (prost, senna, etc). I can't speak for those early drivers like Clark, etc and I don't many people can either.

As for the second paragraph, we need to see a list of no. of years in F1 vs no. of championship won vs no. of victories vs no. of poles. I'm sure someone here would have these numbers.

#33 Cinquecento

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 08:09

"a la Picasso" :rolleyes:

Not every artist is starved, pick another name. Picasso was rich, famous, adored when he lived. So was Senna. The fact that there are people who after his death claim he is overrated, should be a wake up call for you to understand that he isn't.



#34 Daemon

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 09:42

A little reminder:

Readers' Comments
The traditional place for comments by Atlas F1 readers on the current affairs of Formula One and motorsports, and discussions on race-related topics. But be warned: arguments are welcome, PERSONAL INSULTS are not.

--------------
You may not agree with the statement made, or the topic chosen, and many do not, but he has a right to post his opinion without replys such as the last one. I think most other members will agree, that we do not wish that sort of comment in any of the threads. Frankly, I find it offensive.

#35 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 09:57

heh that looks like a nostalgia forum 'best list'


Re: Senna

There's no point in doing your best if it brings out your worst

#36 alain

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 10:13

[QUOTE]Originally posted by B.Traven
[B]No one can deny that Senna was one of the great ever, but I think his fans exaggerate his talent.
OK , no doubt he was good , but not SOOOOO good .
Maybe it’s because he died in such dramatic form, in a season that he had strong opposition. Although driving his dream car, Williams/Renault, (one that he once described as “from other planet”), at the moment of his death, the score was: Schumacher 2 X Senna 0.
Including the 1994 Brazilian GP...
In order to increase the value of the Brazilian, many of his fans use to say that he ever had strong competition from his teammates. It’s not true. The only competent teammate Senna ever had was Prost.
Berger does not count. In terms of driving skills the Austrian was just average , on the level of Boutsen , Herbert ,Coulthard, Barichello or Irvine ( for 10 years Berger had at his disposition such superb machines as Beneton/BMW , Ferrari , MacLaren/Honda and Beneton/Renault, but only has achieved 10 wins on his entire career ).
OK , besides Berger and Prost, he had among his contemporaries Mansel, Piquet, Alboretto, Patrese...
However, what kind of car they were driving?
Senna clinched his 3 titles at the wheel of a car that was overwhelmingly superior to the rest of the field.
In terms of cars, most of the time there was no real opposition for the McLaren-Honda .
Besides the MH , the grid was made by the Ferrari (a car with a powerful engine but lousy chassis, that some day Prost would describe as “firemen truck”), a couple of cars with good chassis but weak motors (Beneton/Ford V-8 and Williams/Judd V8 - later Williams used the Renault V10 in its infancy, with huge reliability problems), and such aberrance as RIAL/Ford V-8, Lola/Lamborghini, Lotus/Judd, Zakspeed/Zakspeed, Dallara/Ford-v8, AGS/Ford V-8, Minardi/Motori Moderni, Minardi/ Ford V-8, Osella/Alfa Romeo, etc.
Even the so much stressed “internal” competition with Prost maybe wasn’t so effective after all. The Frenchman many times complained that his engine was less powerful than the unit Honda put in Senna’s car. Very likely since it’s well known that the Brazilian was the darling of the Japanese, including old man Sochiro himself.




Berger equal to Irvine.No way
What car Nigel had in 87,91,92.
Prost 93
Ayrton had the best car in 88,89.Ferrari was almost ezual to Mac in 90.
In 88,89 he also had the best teammate driving THE SAME CAR
Senna and Clark are the 2 best EVER


#37 Nathan

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 10:20

I agree he is one of the best.

But I agree he is overrated.

And the worse thing is, its because he's dead from racing.

I doubt people who revere him as much if he had the chance to retire on his own.

#38 Gruff

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 11:59

Originally posted by Toxicant
Everyone thought he was magic, why do you bother with such posts?

Simply the best.


I didn't. I thought he was a fairly good driver, but not a patch on Prost/Lauda/Schumacher.

These three stand out as all time great drivers - drivers who raced well in all cars. People like Hakkinen, Senna and Mansell only managed to drive well in good cars.

I'm not saying that it's cost they are crap, but by winning (which is done in a good car) it builds confidence, and confidence is the key to driving at your full potential and looking fast (or rather looking faster than you really are). With that confidence behind you, you can go and set a million pole positions (a la Senna and Hakkinen) but it takes more than confidence to win as many races (a la Schumacher).

Quite simply:

Average driver + good car = race wins

or alternatively

Michael Schumacher or Alain Prost = race wins

That said, Ayrton was special in the wet - a real master, but then again, many drivers are notibly good in the wet, without major achievement - Pedro Diniz springs instantly to mind.


#39 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 13:05

Except its not that easy

Senna was impressive even with less than top machinery, even I have to give him that

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#40 argos

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 14:57

Originally posted by magic
_______

1) Rudolf Caracciola
2) Tazio Nuvolari
3) Bernd Rosemeyer
4) Alberto Ascari
5) Juan-Manuel Fangio
6) Stirling Moss
7) Jimmy Clark
8) Jackie Stewart
9) Ronnie Peterson
10) Niki Lauda
______

hmmm... on your list the most recent driver retired in '85.

the real connaisseurs voted prost the best driver of the 20est century.

is this list based on their driving skill or ethics?

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
heh that looks like a nostalgia forum 'best list'


Yes I suppose my list does look like something out of TNF but there are reasons for that. I didn't include any active F1 drivers because I don't believe it's possible to gauge a driver's career until his career is complete. The only other driver I considered adding to the list was Alain Prost. I didn't include him for two reasons. One is I couldn't decide which driver on the list to leave off. The other is that by including Prost on the list would likely lead to another tiresome Prost v Senna debate. I've been down that road before and have no interest in doing it again. I think I explained how the list was compiled in my original post. I've seen all of the drivers from Clark to the present, so for the drivers of that era were chosen based on my personal observations. I don't have a list of specific criteria that I used to compile the list but yes, I suppose driving skill would be among them and no, ethics on or off the track played no part in my decisions.

#41 magic

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 15:30

about peterson.

i once read his bio and saw his last finish live.

not so long ago i looked up peterson's statistics, and discovered he was quicker overall than stewart and emmo in qual. in '73, probably his best season driving a competitive lotus '72.
only in nurb'ring he got his butt kicked badly by stewart, like all others btw.
stewart was champ end of that season.
and peterson's career went down with lotus the following seasons.

the reason why i think prost and senna should be on your list instead of peterson was his '78 season.

although driving the best car by far, he only had one pole that season.
and 1 vic.
driving the '78 and later the '79 lotus!

you also seem to think that a lauda prior to his crash was quicker than a peaking prost.
i've the feeling lauda himself would disagree.
i think so after reading many lauda interviews.

the fact that prost on his turn admitted senna was quicker and his toughest opponent by far i think even lauda' place on your list should be reconsidered.

i'm involved in f1 since '77/'78 so i cannot judge the other drivers on your list.
but after reading and watching tapes i think stewart, clark, nuvolari and fangio rightfully are present in your ( or was it another forum's) list.

fangio, according to senna was best of all.











#42 B.Verkiler

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 15:36

I think Senna regarded fangio as the best of all because he had 5 titles.

I read he wasn't really interested in history : the best? The most titled, that's it.

#43 magic

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 15:43

wrong.
senna was south american and fangio was a legend over there.
same for emmo who inspired senna too to succeed in europe and f1.

#44 Simioni

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 16:00

Argos,

OK, so I've compared Ayrton Senna with drivers who IMHO are among the fastest ever. My criticisms of Senna would be that he was a one-dimensional driver. While he drove very fast, he was extremely hard on his equipment. During his career he had an incredible number of DNF's. Some will say it's because he had unreliable cars but if you compare the number of Senna's DNF's with the number of his team mates, Senna nearly always had many more. The only way Senna could win was to go flat out, hope to out run everyone else and hope his car held together. Sometimes it takes more than speed to win a race. Sometimes you have to win with your head


You're trying to throw Senna into the "fast, brave but brainless" department that many other drivers belong to, like Ronnie Peterson which happens to be in your all time best list. Senna was fast and tremendously intense in his will to win but, he knew that the car had to be well managed in order to get to the end. Peter Warr and Ron Dennis, his team bosses who probably know better than you and I, were both highly complimentary of Senna's mechanical sensitivity. The goodyear men used to rate Senna as one of the best in tire management. The only real flaw you could find on Senna's driving style was that he was a little hard on fuel comsumption.

I don't think that just looking at a driver's number of mech. retirements in comparison to his teammates would be an accurate way of making an evaluation, since there are so many variables to be taken into account. Still, you're wrong when you say that Senna used to break his car more often than his teammates:

84: Senna (14 races): 5 failures Cecotto/Johannson (12 races) 7 failures

85: Senna: 8 failures De Angelis: 4 failures

86: Senna: 5 failures Dumfries: 7 failures

87: Senna 1 failure Nakajima: 4 failures

88: Senna: no failures Prost: 1 failure

89: Senna: 5 failures Prost: no failures

90: Senna: 3 failures Berger: 2 failures

91: Senna 2 failures Berger: 6 failures

92: Senna: 5 failures Berger: 5 failures

93: Senna: 4 failures Andretti/Hakkinen: 2 failures

94: Senna: 1 failure Hill: 1 failure

total Senna 39 failures, teammates 39.

As far as Ayrton Senna's place in history, there's no question that he ws one of the stars of F1 during the late 80's and early 90's. While I am partial to F1 in the 60's, I did very much enjoy seeing Senna, Prost Mansell and Piquet battle it out for the WDC during that period. IMHO it was one of the more entertaining eras of F1. Senna raced ten full grand prix seasons and won three WDC's. That in itself is quite an accomplishment, but during the same period Prost won four WDC's, and Lauda, Piquet and Mansell won one WDC each. If Senna was really the best ever, If he really was the god of F1 driving, then how did these other drivers have as much success as they did during Senna's time in F1? IMHO it's because Senna was not the best ever and not a driving god.



Once again, I do not agree on drawing conclusions from isolated statistics. You can find an statistic to support whatever argument you wish, even the most absurd one. Jim Clark and Graham Hill both drove in 60's and both got 2 WDC each, yet you can''t talk about Graham in the same breath of Clark. Michael Schumacher only won 1 championship in the past 5 seasons, yet few would argue that he has been the best driver throughout this time. Senna spent 3 years with lotus and 2 with a vastly inferior mclaren, that alone is enough to justify why he "only" got 3 titles.

People say that Senna's death gave him a greater stature in the sport's hierarchy than he would get had he managed to reach retirement well and safe. It's easy to forget that he died at his peak and still with a lot more to achieve. Had he retired with a record number of wins, poles and championships, as it was entirely possible, there wouldn't be much left for his detractors to combat his greatness.

#45 magic

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 16:08

:up:

#46 B.Verkiler

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 16:18

I think Senna was not overrated when he was alive, but is overrated now.

Saying he's the best of all times might be true (thought it's not my opinion), but what is overrated is his margin over the other greats.

#47 magic

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 16:23

i think fangio was the best.

he started winning wdcs at an age most retire nowadays.

imagine a 25 year old fangio, instead of 50.

#48 B.Verkiler

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 16:32

Magic

Maybe it's because the competition was not as tied as nowadays.



#49 Ricardo F1

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 00:09

Posted by Gruff :

"I didn't. I thought he was a fairly good driver, but not a patch on Prost/Lauda/Schumacher.

These three stand out as all time great drivers - drivers who raced well in all cars. People like Hakkinen, Senna and Mansell only managed to drive well in good cars. "

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have you EVER watched F1. Senna nearly won in a TOLEMAN! He did win in a substandard Lotus and he also won in a very substandard McLaren Ford that blew.

Schumacher has only ever won in a good car. Why isn't he in your list???

Senna might be overrated, but anyone who puts Schumacher above him - at the moment - is insane.

#50 Manson

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 00:50

Ayrton Senna is overrated ! Ya and the Pope's not Catholic. Subscribing to this theory means:

A) You have been watching F1 for about ten minutes.
B) You're in desparate need of a clue.

This is absurd. Are we this bored? :rolleyes: