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Science Museum Connaught


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#1 Nick Savage

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 15:58

Discussing the Science Museum collection of vehicles, a friend recalled that he saw a B-type Connaught in one of the galleries at South Kensington, probably in the 1960s. It was said to have been acquired at the liquidation sale.

Do any TNFers know where this car is now ?
Nick

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 16:45

I believe it went to the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu

#3 Pullman99

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 17:06

I believe it went to the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu


It is indeed. Displayed with the other Grand Prix cars. I totally failed to take a pic last time I was there but I'll do some on Saturday whilst I'm at the Autojumble. The car looks to be very original. although somewhat unkempt, as it did go to The Science Museum following the sale of Connaught Engineering at Send (1958???). It was always displayed there as a "loan item" presumably from the liquidators (?). I think that it's chassis B7 and is the ex-Pietro Scotti car and remains in splendidly original condition and much, much cleaner than when it was at South Kensington.

Edited by Pullman99, 24 October 2011 - 07:48.


#4 David McKinney

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 17:12

It is the es-Scotti car (which was B6)

My understanding is that the McAlpine family lent it to the Science Museum, who apparently have a rule that after 'x' number of years loan items become their property....

#5 Peter Morley

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 22:40

It is the es-Scotti car (which was B6)

My understanding is that the McAlpine family lent it to the Science Museum, who apparently have a rule that after 'x' number of years loan items become their property....


If the Science museum have lent it to Beaulieu they might like to consider what happened to another (albeit silver) 1955 F1 car that was (reputedly) loaned to them!!

#6 RobertE

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 03:54

I presume you refer to a certain Mercedes. A scandal, in my opinion.

Mike Lawrence wrote a very fine series of articles on Connaught for 'Motor Sport', and I recall that the car was 'rented' to Piero Scotti...

#7 Nick Savage

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 07:55

Thanks all for the information, much appreciated.
Nick

#8 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:13

I presume you refer to a certain Mercedes. A scandal, in my opinion.

Mike Lawrence wrote a very fine series of articles on Connaught for 'Motor Sport', and I recall that the car was 'rented' to Piero Scotti...


Yes that's it, does show a potential consequence of long term loans.

February 1987 Motorsport (the dvd version is great!) says that Scotti was buying the car in instalments and that following the International Trophy when he realised he wasn't a Grand Prix driver he terminated his agreement.
I assume that means he just stopped paying and ownership reverted to Connaught?

I'm surprised that B6 failed to sell at the Connaught auction since it was presumably the least used of all the B-types which would surely have made it the best buy?


#9 David McKinney

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 10:05

I'm surprised that B6 failed to sell at the Connaught auction since it was presumably the least used of all the B-types which would surely have made it the best buy?

I'm not sure that it was in the auction. Either that, or Ken McAlpine wanted to keep one


#10 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 16:10

I'm not sure that it was in the auction. Either that, or Ken McAlpine wanted to keep one


I've not got a copy of the auction catalogue handy (will have a look when I next visit dad) but I thought it was included.
But, as you say, I'm sure Ken McAlpine did want to keep one - he certainly ended up doing so.

#11 Pullman99

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 16:52

It is the es-Scotti car (which was B6)My understanding is that the McAlpine family lent it to the Science Museum, who apparently have a rule that after 'x' number of years loan items become their property....


Not quite sure about that. I used to pass this car every day when I worked in the Auronautics Department at The Science Museum but IIRC the museum label with an acknowledgement to being "loaned by Connaught Engineering, Send, Surrey". The Science Museum's Inventory Number for the Connaught is 1959-0284 which could indicate that it may have been around the factory for some time following the sale. AFAIK the National Motor Museum has displayed the car with an acknowledgement tp being on loan from The Science Museum. As for ownership of loaned objects being acquired by the museum, after a certain length of time, I am not sure if there would need to be a legal process followed in the case of the death of the original lender or where the company concerned no longer exists. No doubt there are precedents. As with many long-established museums, The Science Museum will have many artefacts that have been "on loan" for many years. In their case, some will go back to The Great Exhibition of 1851. Thanks for clarifying the chassis number, BTW (B6).

At the risk of thread drift...the saga of the Mercedes-Benz W196 that was sold by the National Motor Museum Trust - and mentioned here in several post - has become a "cause celebre" in the world of transport museums. There has been mention on a previous thread here.

W196 sale thread

I was once told that the W196 that had been presented to the NMM and originally displayed in the old museum (?) - featured in the publicity photographs with Stirling Moss at about the time of the new NMM being opened (1972) - was on loan initially but was then returned to Stuttgart to be replaced by a donated second car (chassis 006 ?) that was at one stage reported to be the 1955 Aintree winner. This replacement car was the one subsequently sold to Sir Anthony Bamford (?) and then sold on by him. The NMM, therefore, whatever the rights and wrongs about disposal, were denied any benefit from the subsequent sale proceeds.

Edited by Pullman99, 08 September 2011 - 16:56.


#12 David McKinney

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 18:54

My recollection is that, about 20 years ago, someone approached the Science Museum to establish ownership, with a view to buying the car for historic racing (and why not). He was told wot I sed above...

#13 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 20:06

Johnny Johnson's book "To Draw a Lomg Line" has copies of the Auction Catalogue and B6 is included in that.

I can remember seeing a Mercedes W196 on display in the "old Museum" in about 1959.

#14 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 20:22

Posted Image

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The Mercedes W196 in the Old Museum at Beaulieu.

I can't have two Internet sites open at once, using IE 9. Does any one have a solution?

#15 Allan Lupton

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 21:00

I've not got a copy of the auction catalogue handy (will have a look when I next visit dad) but I thought it was included.
But, as you say, I'm sure Ken McAlpine did want to keep one - he certainly ended up doing so.

The version of the catalogue printed in Johnny Johnson's book lists lots 287-291 as B7, B6, B5, B3 and B2. Lot 292 was C8 but there's a handwritten note "withdrawn". Before 293 (one of the transporters) is written "and B4 (Rob Walker's car).

#16 elansprint72

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 21:15

I can't have two Internet sites open at once, using IE 9. Does any one have a solution?



Mozilla Firefox. There appears to be no limit.

#17 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 21:24

At the risk of thread drift...the saga of the Mercedes-Benz W196 that was sold by the National Motor Museum Trust - and mentioned here in several post - has become a "cause celebre" in the world of transport museums. There has been mention on a previous thread here.

W196 sale thread

I was once told that the W196 that had been presented to the NMM and originally displayed in the old museum (?) - featured in the publicity photographs with Stirling Moss at about the time of the new NMM being opened (1972) - was on loan initially but was then returned to Stuttgart to be replaced by a donated second car (chassis 006 ?) that was at one stage reported to be the 1955 Aintree winner. This replacement car was the one subsequently sold to Sir Anthony Bamford (?) and then sold on by him. The NMM, therefore, whatever the rights and wrongs about disposal, were denied any benefit from the subsequent sale proceeds.


I should declare an interest in that I am now one of the NMM's Advisory Council members. However, in the past I have been very critical of the sale of the W196 which had been displayed for many years in the NMM. My distaste for that sale has abated a little now that I am more aware of the circumstances surrounding the decision to sell. The Museum had a costly new project which was deemed necessary to enhance the libraries and learning capability there. The institution's remit is effectively to preserve the history of motoring on British roads. The W196 was not a British product, nor had it featured on British roads, other than on track at Aintree, and as ballast in the transporters motoring to and from. Against that background it was regarded as being saleable, without detracting from the Museum's core remit, whereas the proceeds from the sale could greatly enhance several aspects of the Museum's remit. My gut reaction is still one of distaste, but not the intense disgust I genuinely felt at the time. Which way would I have swayed had I been on the Advisory Council then? I like to think that, while recognising how the cash for the car would have been more useful in building extra library space, a lecture theatre, etc etc...I would still have voted to find some alternative source of cash, while keeping the car, and so honouring Mercedes' original gift. But that's not the way the crumbly cookled.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 08 September 2011 - 21:25.


#18 Peter Morley

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 21:36

I should declare an interest in that I am now one of the NMM's Advisory Council members. However, in the past I have been very critical of the sale of the W196 which had been displayed for many years in the NMM. My distaste for that sale has abated a little now that I am more aware of the circumstances surrounding the decision to sell. The Museum had a costly new project which was deemed necessary to enhance the libraries and learning capability there. The institution's remit is effectively to preserve the history of motoring on British roads. The W196 was not a British product, nor had it featured on British roads, other than on track at Aintree, and as ballast in the transporters motoring to and from. Against that background it was regarded as being saleable, without detracting from the Museum's core remit, whereas the proceeds from the sale could greatly enhance several aspects of the Museum's remit. My gut reaction is still one of distaste, but not the intense disgust I genuinely felt at the time. Which way would I have swayed had I been on the Advisory Council then? I like to think that, while recognising how the cash for the car would have been more useful in building extra library space, a lecture theatre, etc etc...I would still have voted to find some alternative source of cash, while keeping the car, and so honouring Mercedes' original gift. But that's not the way the crumbly cookled.

DCN


Not sure how to put this and not sound like a backside kisser, but hopefully having people such as yourself on the council will prevent such incidents occurring in the future.



#19 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 21:49

Don't hold your breath Peter - we merely advise, not decide.

DCN

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#20 arttidesco

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 00:12

It is the es-Scotti car (which was B6)

My understanding is that the McAlpine family lent it to the Science Museum, who apparently have a rule that after 'x' number of years loan items become their property....


Seems to me if one is going to loan a museum a car it is a very good idea to let them know when you will be expecting to take it away again.

#21 Pullman99

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 11:14

Seems to me if one is going to loan a museum a car it is a very good idea to let them know when you will be expecting to take it away again.


Indeed - and a very interesting example that you have highlighted. Responsible museums do take loan agreements very seriously and they are generally for a fixed term - say five years - that are renewed or terminated by agreement. The ownership of an object should, therefore, never be in doubt. Outright gifts are also recorded as such and, as Doug Nye has indicated, should not be accepted if they are outside the museum's core collecting policy. If, due to changes of policy and circumstances, such an object may subsequently fall outside the parameters of the collecting policy, the museum can seek to dispose of it in whichever manner they deem to be appropriate. I am not familiar with the relationship at the time with Mercedes-Benz but presumably the action taken then concerning the W196's legal ownership was accepted by all parties.

In the case of the Connaught, the "national" museums, such as The Science Musuem, have very tight legal guidelines on disposals and these are very rare indeed. Thankfully this car - as a loan to the NMM - is now displayed in relative context with some of its contemporaries.

Edited by Pullman99, 09 September 2011 - 12:28.


#22 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 12:14

This one:

http://www.photograp...imageid=2510219