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Mystery AAR Lola T70 'flower pot'


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#1 ssperka

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 01:27

The October 23, 1965 issue of Competition Press and Autoweek, page 3, has a picture of Dan Gurney in a McLaren Ford with the caption, "With both his old Lotus 19 and a new Lola T70 converted to flower pots, Dan Gurney will be driving this new McLaren-Ford for All-American Racers in the fall pro series." The October 9th issue of Competition Press and Autoweek, 2 weeks earlier, under the Late News section, is states "Goodyear sources give substance to the rumor that Gurney has both a McLaren and a Lola T70 for the fall, . . . ". Despite intense searching of all issues, the week between and the 2 weeks mentioned, and there is no mention what happened to the "new Lola" T70 Dan was to drive. My questions are what happened to the Lola? Which T70 was it? What happened to it after its assumed crash? I just can't find any mention of any crash anywhere. Thanks

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#2 arttidesco

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 10:33

As I have stated else where in the last few days according to Frank Williams assumptions are the mothers of all extremely strong expletive ups.

Unnamed Goodyear sources giving substance to rumours about a drivers assets for future races sounds a tad questionable.

First question did Dan Gurney have a Lola T70 to convert in to a flower pot in 1965 ?

If Dan did crash a T70 in 1965 how badly was it damaged ?

Was the alleged 'new' Lola given 'substance' by Goodyear sources one that was perhaps actually only on order for 1966 ?

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Dan's 1966 MK2 Spider T70 Lola Ford #SL71/34 was at the Carmel by the Sea Concours last month.

Top period scans :up:

#3 ssperka

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 14:03

I know the car in question is not SL71/34, which was not delivered until June '66. The car in question was invoiced to Carroll Shelby, a partner in AAR, in May '65. The accident happened in October 1965. When, where, and how, specifically, is what I want to learn as well as its identity. Thank you for your contribution.

#4 arttidesco

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 16:25

Your welcome ssperka, sounds like something Tony 'Giraffe' Gallagher might know, I am sure he will pop by when he sees the T70 thread heading :wave:

#5 RA Historian

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 19:37

According to Martin Krejci, Lola T-70 s/n 70-10, went to Carroll Shelby on 5-30-65. Car was destroyed soon thereafter:

"Color: white. Destroyed during test session by Chuck Jones while presenting to journalists. Car later recreated in USA."

As far as I know, Gurney was not involved, although it is possible that the car was meant for him later. As I recall, Dan drove his old Lotus 19B at Daytona and Sebring before spending the majority of the year with Brabham. He did have a McLaren M1A for selected fall pro races in the U.S. The McLaren had to be ordered well before the fall pro races, which begs the question, why order a McLaren when a Lola was already in the U.S.? Perhaps it never was intended for Gurney. I agree with Art that a press release from the Goodyear ad boys may not be the most reliable of sources.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 12 September 2011 - 19:40.


#6 arttidesco

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Posted 12 September 2011 - 19:43

According to Lola Heritage SL70/10 now belongs Byron de Foor and is resident in the USA.

#7 ssperka

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 01:45

According to Martin Krejci, Lola T-70 s/n 70-10, went to Carroll Shelby on 5-30-65. Car was destroyed soon thereafter:

"Color: white. Destroyed during test session by Chuck Jones while presenting to journalists. Car later recreated in USA."

As far as I know, Gurney was not involved, although it is possible that the car was meant for him later. As I recall, Dan drove his old Lotus 19B at Daytona and Sebring before spending the majority of the year with Brabham. He did have a McLaren M1A for selected fall pro races in the U.S. The McLaren had to be ordered well before the fall pro races, which begs the question, why order a McLaren when a Lola was already in the U.S.? Perhaps it never was intended for Gurney. I agree with Art that a press release from the Goodyear ad boys may not be the most reliable of sources.

Tom

Right, Tom. I've heard/read the story line from several sources, but details seem unavailable. If it was a press gathering, somebody must have written something. I can think of the Autodynamics Lola T-160 that journalist Charles Fox crashed at VIR and a couple of other similar stories. Such events usually end up in print. Not so, so far, for Chuck's T70 crash. Anybody seen anything about it in print? Thanks for the input, everyone.

#8 Tom Glowacki

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Posted 13 September 2011 - 02:46

The October 23, 1965 issue of Competition Press and Autoweek, page 3, has a picture of Dan Gurney in a McLaren Ford with the caption, "With both his old Lotus 19 and a new Lola T70 converted to flower pots, Dan Gurney will be driving this new McLaren-Ford for All-American Racers in the fall pro series." The October 9th issue of Competition Press and Autoweek, 2 weeks earlier, under the Late News section, is states "Goodyear sources give substance to the rumor that Gurney has both a McLaren and a Lola T70 for the fall, . . . ". Despite intense searching of all issues, the week between and the 2 weeks mentioned, and there is no mention what happened to the "new Lola" T70 Dan was to drive. My questions are what happened to the Lola? Which T70 was it? What happened to it after its assumed crash? I just can't find any mention of any crash anywhere. Thanks


Go back to the "Vintage Motrosport Magazine thread for the McLaren M8F discussion at:

http://forums.autosp...w...80&start=80


and you will find this post by Schkee 332:

QUOTE (RA Historian @ Mar 17 2011, 21:05)
The writer of the M8F sidebar did another sidebar in the same issue, about a former AAR Lola T-70. In this sidebar he writes about the current car as being the same car used by AAR back in 1966. A quick check of Krejci's site reveals that the original car was destroyed in a testing crash and a replacement was built up around the salvageable parts of the wrecked car. So the car featured is what I call a "gearshift knob" car, that is, a car built up around the gearshift knob of the original and claimed to be the original. That may well be my exaggeration, but it is a broad term that I use for cars built up from various original parts and claimed to be the original. Since the owner of the Lola in question does not make any claim about this car being anything else than the car from which it is derived, I am not of a mind to get upset about that. But, having said that, the writer should have indicated in his article that the Lola had been for all intents and purposes destroyed and that the car about which he was writing was a replacement. Again, a failure of the writer to do any fact checking or due diligence whatsoever, but to merely repeat what is told.

Tom, The AAR USRRC Lola (we are NOT talking about the AAR Can Am Lola) you are refering to was wrecked indeed but it was wrecked during a press day while giving rides to journalists prior to the start of the season, as I understand it.
It was repaired using the newer features of a MK II tub while retaining the MK I chassis identity and raced in the USRRC. All these cars were driven very hard and were very fragile, certainly not robust in construction. What is left of them has a good news/bad news feature in that the more of the original car that still remains in situ, the less capable is the car to do competitive laps today. The car you question has a pickup truck load of stuff that has stayed with the car all these years proving the claimed roots.

The reference in the post to Vintge Motorsport Magazine is to the samew issue earlier this year that started off the McLaren M8F controversy.



#9 CJ22

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 01:24

Right, Tom. I've heard/read the story line from several sources, but details seem unavailable. If it was a press gathering, somebody must have written something. I can think of the Autodynamics Lola T-160 that journalist Charles Fox crashed at VIR and a couple of other similar stories. Such events usually end up in print. Not so, so far, for Chuck's T70 crash. Anybody seen anything about it in print? Thanks for the input, everyone.

My name is Chuck Jones... What you will read is the history of The Lola T-70 chassis #10. This Lola became my property in October of "1965"as a part of the sale of my then 8000 sq.ft. racing facility to Dan Gurney's newly formed AAR. Gurney had been renting the facilities for about a year and wished to purchase it. Dan and his attorney and I met at the shop to discusses the terms of the sale of the property. After the sale price was agreed upon for the building and an additional lot came the question of the equipment in the machine shop (lathes, heli-arc, mill, grinders, band-saw, etc.) There was both a new McLaren and a Lola T-70 (neither, yet prepared, for racing) in the shop at that time. After some discussion Dan decided to keep the McLaren for him to race in "1966" and the Lola became my property as trade for the value of the machine shop and as a part of the sale of my property to Dan Gurney/AAR. This is the car that became the #9 Lancer Lola that Max Balchoski wrenched, Skip Hudson drove and I owned. We finished third overall in USRRC in "1966". This chassis may have been originally acquired by Carol Shelby but he and Dan were partners at the time. So who?, had acquired it from the factory and when was not an issue. At any rate, Shelby arrived late for the meeting and Dan and I had already come to terms. Carol had driven down to Santa Ana in a blue 289 Cobra, walked into the meeting and asked if we had come to an agreement yet. I looked up and just for the fun of it said "Through in the Cobra and the deal is done" He threw me the keys and I drove it home! Incidently it was one of two Cobras built with an automatic transmission. I would suggest that any of you who might have questions regards this ask Dan or Shelby, their memories are still rather good. In recent years I have been contacted by numerous people researching for books or stories on Lola t-70's. and a lot of other stuff on various cars I have owned and raced. The correct lineage of this Lola chassis is apparently a little bit of a mystery. I am told by one that it may have been originally purchased from Lola by Briggs Cunningham for Walt Hansgen and when that failed it went on to Shelby. That kind of thing happened then! Lot's of deaths in that era! My Lola T-70 as I said became the #9 Lancer Lola with our own design, rear deck. The car was silver metallic with a large amount of silver-leaf work on the sides and deck. Incidentally I did all of my own pin stripping and lettering at that time. I appreciate the fact that there is so much interest in older, other era, race cars, but have been on occasion miffed or even humored when someone who was not even alive in the "50's" ,"60's" or "70's". tells me I don't know what I'm talking about regards my own cars. I went from dry lakes in the "40's" through drag racing "50's". With Jack Chrisman and my "Sidewinder,chain driven dragsters. (National Champions, NHRA), then, SCCA, USRRC, USAC, F-5000 to being Mo Nunn's partner with Team Ensign in Formula One (1975 through 1982). I'm just turning 80 have had a wonderful time , fond memories, few complaints and "Got to live my dream". One more thing, the #9 Lancer Lola did not crash in 1965 or 1966 but in 1967. Not on a PR day in front of a group of journalists but at Riverside, closed session tire testing prior to that years Can AM season in which Rick Muther later drove the next series of T-70 for me. If any one is interested in my racing history you can go to Jerry Entin's AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board on: Chuck Jones Thanks for reading this and I hope it clarifies or even creats more questions....Sincerely....Chuck Jones

#10 CJ22

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 01:35

Right, Tom. I've heard/read the story line from several sources, but details seem unavailable. If it was a press gathering, somebody must have written something. I can think of the Autodynamics Lola T-160 that journalist Charles Fox crashed at VIR and a couple of other similar stories. Such events usually end up in print. Not so, so far, for Chuck's T70 crash. Anybody seen anything about it in print? Thanks for the input, everyone.

My name is Chuck Jones... What you will read is the history of The Lola T-70 chassis #10. This Lola became my property in October of "1965"as a part of the sale of my then 8000 sq.ft. racing facility to Dan Gurney's newly formed AAR. Gurney had been renting the facilities for about a year and wished to purchase it. Dan and his attorney and I met at the shop to discusses the terms of the sale of the property. After the sale price was agreed upon for the building and an additional lot came the question of the equipment in the machine shop (lathes, heli-arc, mill, grinders, band-saw, etc.) There was both a new McLaren and a Lola T-70 (neither, yet prepared, for racing) in the shop at that time. After some discussion Dan decided to keep the McLaren for him to race in "1966" and the Lola became my property as trade for the value of the machine shop and as a part of the sale of my property to Dan Gurney/AAR. This is the car that became the #9 Lancer Lola that Max Balchoski wrenched, Skip Hudson drove and I owned. We finished third overall in USRRC in "1966". This chassis may have been originally acquired by Carol Shelby but he and Dan were partners at the time. So who?, had acquired it from the factory and when was not an issue. At any rate, Shelby arrived late for the meeting and Dan and I had already come to terms. Carol had driven down to Santa Ana in a blue 289 Cobra, walked into the meeting and asked if we had come to an agreement yet. I looked up and just for the fun of it said "Through in the Cobra and the deal is done" He threw me the keys and I drove it home! Incidently it was one of two Cobras built with an automatic transmission. I would suggest that any of you who might have questions regards this ask Dan or Shelby, their memories are still rather good. In recent years I have been contacted by numerous people researching for books or stories on Lola t-70's. and a lot of other stuff on various cars I have owned and raced. The correct lineage of this Lola chassis is apparently a little bit of a mystery. I am told by one that it may have been originally purchased from Lola by Briggs Cunningham for Walt Hansgen and when that failed it went on to Shelby. That kind of thing happened then! Lot's of deaths in that era! My Lola T-70 as I said became the #9 Lancer Lola with our own design, rear deck. The car was silver metallic with a large amount of silver-leaf work on the sides and deck. Incidentally I did all of my own pin stripping and lettering at that time. I appreciate the fact that there is so much interest in older, other era, race cars, but have been on occasion miffed or even humored when someone who was not even alive in the "50's" ,"60's" or "70's". tells me I don't know what I'm talking about regards my own cars. I went from dry lakes in the "40's" through drag racing "50's". With Jack Chrisman and my "Sidewinder,chain driven dragsters. (National Champions, NHRA), then, SCCA, USRRC, USAC, F-5000 to being Mo Nunn's partner with Team Ensign in Formula One (1975 through 1982). I'm just turning 80 have had a wonderful time , fond memories, few complaints and "Got to live my dream". One more thing, the #9 Lancer Lola did not crash in 1965 or 1966 but in 1967. Not on a PR day in front of a group of journalists but at Riverside, closed session tire testing prior to that years Can AM season in which Rick Muther later drove the next series of T-70 for me. If any one is interested in my racing history you can go to Jerry Entin's AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board on: Chuck Jones Thanks for reading this and I hope it clarifies or even creats more questions....Sincerely....Chuck Jones

#11 ssperka

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 01:46

My name is Chuck Jones... What you will read is the history of The Lola T-70 chassis #10. This Lola became my property in October of "1965"as a part of the sale of my then 8000 sq.ft. racing facility to Dan Gurney's newly formed AAR. Gurney had been renting the facilities for about a year and wished to purchase it. Dan and his attorney and I met at the shop to discusses the terms of the sale of the property. After the sale price was agreed upon for the building and an additional lot came the question of the equipment in the machine shop (lathes, heli-arc, mill, grinders, band-saw, etc.) There was both a new McLaren and a Lola T-70 (neither, yet prepared, for racing) in the shop at that time. After some discussion Dan decided to keep the McLaren for him to race in "1966" and the Lola became my property as trade for the value of the machine shop and as a part of the sale of my property to Dan Gurney/AAR. This is the car that became the #9 Lancer Lola that Max Balchoski wrenched, Skip Hudson drove and I owned. We finished third overall in USRRC in "1966". This chassis may have been originally acquired by Carol Shelby but he and Dan were partners at the time. So who?, had acquired it from the factory and when was not an issue. At any rate, Shelby arrived late for the meeting and Dan and I had already come to terms. Carol had driven down to Santa Ana in a blue 289 Cobra, walked into the meeting and asked if we had come to an agreement yet. I looked up and just for the fun of it said "Through in the Cobra and the deal is done" He threw me the keys and I drove it home! Incidently it was one of two Cobras built with an automatic transmission. I would suggest that any of you who might have questions regards this ask Dan or Shelby, their memories are still rather good. In recent years I have been contacted by numerous people researching for books or stories on Lola t-70's. and a lot of other stuff on various cars I have owned and raced. The correct lineage of this Lola chassis is apparently a little bit of a mystery. I am told by one that it may have been originally purchased from Lola by Briggs Cunningham for Walt Hansgen and when that failed it went on to Shelby. That kind of thing happened then! Lot's of deaths in that era! My Lola T-70 as I said became the #9 Lancer Lola with our own design, rear deck. The car was silver metallic with a large amount of silver-leaf work on the sides and deck. Incidentally I did all of my own pin stripping and lettering at that time. I appreciate the fact that there is so much interest in older, other era, race cars, but have been on occasion miffed or even humored when someone who was not even alive in the "50's" ,"60's" or "70's". tells me I don't know what I'm talking about regards my own cars. I went from dry lakes in the "40's" through drag racing "50's". With Jack Chrisman and my "Sidewinder,chain driven dragsters. (National Champions, NHRA), then, SCCA, USRRC, USAC, F-5000 to being Mo Nunn's partner with Team Ensign in Formula One (1975 through 1982). I'm just turning 80 have had a wonderful time , fond memories, few complaints and "Got to live my dream". One more thing, the #9 Lancer Lola did not crash in 1965 or 1966 but in 1967. Not on a PR day in front of a group of journalists but at Riverside, closed session tire testing prior to that years Can AM season in which Rick Muther later drove the next series of T-70 for me. If any one is interested in my racing history you can go to Jerry Entin's AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board on: Chuck Jones Thanks for reading this and I hope it clarifies or even creats more questions....Sincerely....Chuck Jones


Hi, Chuck. I am so pleased to get your very informative take on this. This thread was started by me, Scott Sperka, and you and I spoke at length by phone soon after I sent to you, via your son in Florida, the large photo of you, Briggs Cunningham, and your Maserati T-151 which I took at the 1963 Road America 500, the photo Jerry Entin used to introduce the "Chuck Jones Thread" to which you refer. I know that we covered a lot of territory in that conversation, but the story of the Team Meridian T70 has piqued my curiosity for some time! I recall you telling me that AAR moved into the former home of TMI in Santa Ana. Thank you so much for filling in the details! It is great to hear from you again! I look forward to our next conversation. My best to you, Chuck. -Scott

Edited by ssperka, 14 September 2011 - 01:51.


#12 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 05:44

This one!

http://www.racingspo...6-08-28-009.jpg

Vince H.

#13 E1pix

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 05:57

.... The car was silver metallic with a large amount of silver-leaf work on the sides and deck. Incidentally I did all of my own pin stripping and lettering at that time....

Chuck, that is one wonderful post you've written, and like so many others I am a fan of your life's work in racing.

So I feel a bit cheap in using this one quote.... but as a former sign painter-pinstriper of over 500 race cars, I would love to see samples of your sign work posted here!

Enjoy your golden years, and your memories of gold as well. Yours has been a life of much admiration here. :)

#14 CJ22

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 16:52

Chuck, that is one wonderful post you've written, and like so many others I am a fan of your life's work in racing.

So I feel a bit cheap in using this one quote.... but as a former sign painter-pinstriper of over 500 race cars, I would love to see samples of your sign work posted here!

Enjoy your golden years, and your memories of gold as well. Yours has been a life of much admiration here. :)

If you go to the AUTOSPORT Bulletine segment done regards my racing by Jerry Entine you will see a number photos of my work on my own cars over the years. In Southern Calif during the early years ("!950's"), there was, of course, Von Dutch, Ed Roth, The Flea, A couple of others, whose names escape me, and myself, the lesser of all. I learned to pin-stripe, apply gold and silver leaf, and oil backed leaf from an old German artisan who was loosing his sight in the late "1940's". He gave me his self made brushes and equipment, all I still have and most of it well over 125 years old. I learned from him at the time he was doing the work on the restored wheels and chassis of my great grandparents and grand-parents buggy's. I still keep my hand in the game, having recently re-stripped my slope-nosed Porsch..Thanks for the compliment, but to be honest, I never considered myself any more that a respectable journeyman in those circles. Sincerely.......Chuck Jones

#15 CJ22

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 16:52

Chuck, that is one wonderful post you've written, and like so many others I am a fan of your life's work in racing.

So I feel a bit cheap in using this one quote.... but as a former sign painter-pinstriper of over 500 race cars, I would love to see samples of your sign work posted here!

Enjoy your golden years, and your memories of gold as well. Yours has been a life of much admiration here. :)

If you go to the AUTOSPORT Bulletine segment done regards my racing by Jerry Entine you will see a number photos of my work on my own cars over the years. In Southern Calif during the early years ("!950's"), there was, of course, Von Dutch, Ed Roth, The Flea, A couple of others, whose names escape me, and myself, the lesser of all. I learned to pin-stripe, apply gold and silver leaf, and oil backed leaf from an old German artisan who was loosing his sight in the late "1940's". He gave me his self made brushes and equipment, all I still have and most of it well over 125 years old. I learned from him at the time he was doing the work on the restored wheels and chassis of my great grandparents and grand-parents buggy's. I still keep my hand in the game, having recently re-stripped my slope-nosed Porsch..Thanks for the compliment, but to be honest, I never considered myself any more that a respectable journeyman in those circles. Sincerely.......Chuck Jones

#16 Tim Murray

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 17:01

Here's the Chuck Jones thread:

Charles 'Chuck' Jones

#17 E1pix

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 17:18

If you go to the AUTOSPORT Bulletine segment done regards my racing by Jerry Entine you will see a number photos of my work on my own cars over the years. In Southern Calif during the early years ("!950's"), there was, of course, Von Dutch, Ed Roth, The Flea, A couple of others, whose names escape me, and myself, the lesser of all. I learned to pin-stripe, apply gold and silver leaf, and oil backed leaf from an old German artisan who was loosing his sight in the late "1940's". He gave me his self made brushes and equipment, all I still have and most of it well over 125 years old. I learned from him at the time he was doing the work on the restored wheels and chassis of my great grandparents and grand-parents buggy's. I still keep my hand in the game, having recently re-stripped my slope-nosed Porsch..Thanks for the compliment, but to be honest, I never considered myself any more that a respectable journeyman in those circles. Sincerely.......Chuck Jones

Thanks, Chuck, I read and posted on that thread and much enjoyed it! I loved the look of Bob Muir's F5000 car — and Bob's demeanor in general. Your numbering style was very nice, even as a kid I loved that orange car. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the #9 Skip Hudson T70 was at Road America in the USRRC (?) in '66 and/or '67, I remember that car also.

I haven't striped since 2004 but started in 1976, and Herm Johnson was my mentor and inspiration (Super Vee and Indy Car driver). The last car I did, an Auburn, won Best of Show in Pebble Beach in 2005, and a perfect 10 on the stripe. My wife had a stroke at 43, my efforts were elsewhere since, and I lost the passion for striping. But, if you're still doing it at 80, you may have inspired me to do it again at 51. I had Mack make me a few dozen custom long-length 0 brushes in the mid-80s and they're still fine in their oil bath.

I love reading that you have such old brushes! My oldest sign brushes were also bought in 1976 and I still have some given to me by a friend in High School from her Dad, those are from the '60s. Mostly brown squirrel quills, some greys, and some Grumbacher flats.

I very much appreciate your reply!

Edited by E1pix, 14 September 2011 - 17:20.


#18 ssperka

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 19:35

Here's the Chuck Jones thread:

Charles 'Chuck' Jones

This Chuck Jones thread is a must-read. Note right from the opening photo of Chuck and his ex-Cunningham Maserati T-151 in the grassy paddock at Road America, it was indeed a different era. You could walk among the cars, and speak to the drivers and other personnel. I also thoroughly enjoyed the evolution of California fashion as worn by Chuck and his cohorts. Lots of fun. The depth and breadth of Chuck's involvement in so many aspects of motorsports is amazing. He is still involved to this day, as he mentioned in my conversation with him. The sport is better because of him. Click over to it, read and view, and jump in with contributions and comments. Thanks, Chuck!

#19 ssperka

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 20:04

I want to take this time to put back in front of you the 1965 CP&A gleanings that prompted this thread. They are the substantiated "rumors" that Gurney had the McLaren and a Lola T70 ready for the Fall. Specific events or series are left in question.Also a photo with caption clearly implying that the previously available T70 was now, in 1965, a "flower pot", unusable. Be reminded that most rumors mentioned in CP&A eventually came to be. They were pretty reliable predictions usually and to call them rumors, when in a different topic might have been called "anonymous sources" or "persons not wishing to be identified" , shouldn't take away from their importance. Here is the opening teaser:
Posted Image
The second mention, with photo of the McLaren now to be used, strongly implies that the T70 was no longer available in 1965 and that it was no longer serviceable. If an AAR T70 was given to Chuck as partial payment for the Santa Ana facility to be the AAR home, why the suggestion in the photo that a T70 was a "flower pot" and not just no longer owned by or available to Gurney?
Posted Image

Wouldn't a logical statement in this October 23rd, 1965 issue have been that the T70 was no longer in the AAR stable and thus unavailable to Gurney, or words to that effect? Not that is was now a "flower pot", trashed. They could not have been clairvoyant regarding a future (1967) crash.

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#20 RA Historian

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 20:49

. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the #9 Skip Hudson T70 was at Road America in the USRRC (?) in '66 and/or '67,

You are not, Eric. The TMI Lola T-70 was driven solo by Skip Hudson to third place in the 1966 Road America 500. It was a beautiful looking car, with a custom rear deck with the air intakes for the small block Chevy's four dual Webers very neatly incorporated into the deck.

Interestingly enough, three of the first four place cars were driven solo in this 500 mile event. The winner was Chuck Parsons in a McLaren Elva Mk II (M1B), second was the combination of Charlie Hayes and Earl Jones in another McLaren M1B, third was Hudson, while fourth was Lothar Motschenbacher, also in an M1B, and also driving solo. This race had a fantastic finish, as the Hayes/Jones duo led a good portion of the way, but were slowing near the end as the Chevy V-8 was throwing its oil. Hayes led into the last lap, but Parsons caught him in the final corner and outdragged the ailing McLaren to the finish line, nipping Hayes by just a car length or two. This was after 500 miles! I spoke to Charlie a couple months ago, and he still recalls that finish with chagrin!

Tom

#21 E1pix

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 20:54

You are not, Eric. The TMI Lola T-70 was driven solo by Skip Hudson to third place in the 1966 Road America 500. It was a beautiful looking car, with a custom rear deck with the air intakes for the small block Chevy's four dual Webers very neatly incorporated into the deck....

Tom

Thanks, Tom, great analysis (and memory!).

My Dad's got an old photo of the RA 500 grid in I think 1966. I have yet to scan it, but was that the year that Doug Revson's Porsche also ran? (whether he was the driver or not, I am not sure, it was white in the middle saddled by red on one side and blue on the other IIRC). I also believe there's a GT40 in that shot.

#22 RA Historian

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 21:03

Your memory is not bad either, Eric! In 1966 the Revson brothers, Doug and Peter, co-drove a Porsche 906 that was indeed painted in three colors, white in the middle flanked by red on one end and blue on the other. I thought it was more reminiscent of the French Tricolor than the Stars and Stripes, though. If you have a photo of this car, I know that Jennifer Revson would like to see it.

There was a Ford GT-40 in the race also. It was entered by Grady Davis, and driven by Dick Thompson and Ed Lowther.

Tom

#23 CJ22

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 23:16

According to Lola Heritage SL70/10 now belongs Byron de Foor and is resident in the USA.

Chuck Jones again! I am interested in how Byron de Foor might have obtained what was left of my SL 70 Serial Number 10 Lola after it was virtually destroyed at Riverside in "1967" while testing. This Lola that I obtained from Dan Gurney as part of the financial deal when I sold my racing facilities to Dan in October "1965". This is the car Skip Hudson drove for me in the USRRC series in "1966"( Third in points in the Championship that year) and widely known as the #9 Lancer Lola. The car was striped of engine transmission and any other savable parts and as I remember the body and particularly the chassis were useless and were off to the junk pile. Various body parts on the one and only#9 Lancer Lola were designed by me, with rather unique and one-off rear deck. If someone has what is claimed to be the #10 chassis, I serously doubt it's absolute authenticity. I have seen a copy of my rear deck on a Lola that is now in France but it has what appears to be a "1966" or later chassis. Admittedly someone in my shop may have bootlegged a copy of the rear deck off our mold but not with my permission. Those things do happen. The chassis number plate disappeared from my files years ago, so?, who knows! The original car was destroyed as far as I'm concerned and any thing else is a mere copy. or if not presented as the #9 Lancer Lola a mark of admiration. I am not accusing anyone of any thing on my #9 Lancer Lola. The mystery surrounding my car is more curiosity than concern for me. I am more interested in clarifying the record for racing history devotes and those who are serious authors. Those interested in a more detailed bit on my acquiring this chassis will find it in a blog I sent in yesterday. For those who have a further interest you may e-mail me at> f1cj22@gmail.com ...... Sincerely........Chuck Jones

#24 CJ22

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 23:35

I know the car in question is not SL71/34, which was not delivered until June '66. The car in question was invoiced to Carroll Shelby, a partner in AAR, in May '65. The accident happened in October 1965. When, where, and how, specifically, is what I want to learn as well as its identity. Thank you for your contribution.

ssperka It has just dawned on me that the confusion regards my #9 Lancer Lola my have arrived from it's disappearing into my hands as a portion of the sale of my facilities to Dan Gurney/AAR in 1965. Knowing Dan's sense of humor he may of told people it had crashed! Or possibly the supposition, or rumor, at that time might have been that it must have crashed as its no longer at the shop. My business with Dan at that time was for various reasons not necessarily a public matter.................Sincerely ....Chuck Jones

#25 E1pix

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 23:51

Your memory is not bad either, Eric! In 1966 the Revson brothers, Doug and Peter, co-drove a Porsche 906 that was indeed painted in three colors, white in the middle flanked by red on one end and blue on the other. I thought it was more reminiscent of the French Tricolor than the Stars and Stripes, though. If you have a photo of this car, I know that Jennifer Revson would like to see it.

There was a Ford GT-40 in the race also. It was entered by Grady Davis, and driven by Dick Thompson and Ed Lowther.

Tom

Well, I was 6 then so my brain cells hadn't a chance to wither just yet. :) Agreed, it was more of a French motif, and maybe that #9 car is in that photo as well. I didn't know Peter was the co-driver.... what a "top to bottom" racing story for that family, if you will. Sad. :(

I'll see if I can locate that image, I have many of my Dad's files but with over 50K of my own they're not too organized as of yet. But I think they're in house.

Thanks, Tom.



#26 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 10:41

Interesting topic ! Great to hear from a guy like Chuck Jones ! I am reading Jerry Entin's Chuck Jones thread right now and want to get back to it so I am making this post brief !

The following is what I think might be the case. It is not fact. I was not there ...

Ware talking about more than one car here

Jerry Grant drove a T70 for AAR in USRRC in 1966 that was Dark blue with light blue scallops that was retubbed with a MKII chassis as it was wrecked early on and the new chassis was MKII as the original steel style chassis now called MKI was no longer in production(This car has been historically known as SL70/10). This is the Defoor car today. Rebuilt from the flowerpot prior to USRRC 1966?

John Klug raced a T70 that was painted in a similar design (dark Blue with yellow/gold scallops) that started off being a pacesetter homes lola with the large air intake pods. This was sold to ? (Chuck Jones by Gurney who raced Klug's king Cobra in 1965?) and raced by Skip Hudson painted bentley blue/silver with scallops running the number 9. That Lola has been known historically as SL70/8 and was crashed in 1967 at riverside. It had gearbox #10. That is not the Grant/Defoor car, although it may be the car referenced in this thread as the Jones car?
Was the Jones car #10 because of the transaxle serial number ? Just a thought...

If it is the same car that became two cars, then one is built on the wrecked (in 1965) chassis and the other is built on the replacement MKII chassis.
If they were always two different cars then the numbers could be confused or mis-applied.

I do not think there is any dispute that Jerry Grant and Skip Hudson drove two different cars in the same race, so which was which ?

If Chuck had chassis 10 then Grant drove chassis 8, and vice versa (possibly). So was Chuck Jones' car on a steel or aluminum chassis ?

Who knows? Not me, that is for sure !

Johan

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 15 September 2011 - 18:33.


#27 arttidesco

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 18:26

:stoned: If the #9 Skip Hudson car that crashed in 1967, was not SL70/10 as Chuck remembers but SL70/8 with a transaxle marked #10 as Schkee suggests then the owner of the car rescued (?) from Chucks 'junk pile' according to Lola Heritage is in the custody of Marc Devis in Belgium.



#28 CJ22

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 21:30

This one!

http://www.racingspo...6-08-28-009.jpg

Vince H.

That's it!, that is my CHASSIS #10 Lancer Lola, very nice shot have not seen it befor! Thank you raceaanouncer 200. Sincerely............ Chuck Jones

#29 Frank S

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 23:16

Steve McQueen and the No. 9 Lola at Riverside


A Google Images search on "steve mcqueen lola" yields this image and several others in black and white, apparently at the same "event".

#30 E1pix

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Posted 15 September 2011 - 23:50

Steve McQueen and the No. 9 Lola at Riverside

That's one of the most historically significant "racing" images I've ever seen.

Bloody fabulous! (Oh, oh, the Brits here are rubbing off on me :) ) Warm beer is next, I s'pose.

#31 ssperka

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 01:08

Steve McQueen and the No. 9 Lola at Riverside


A Google Images search on "steve mcqueen lola" yields this image and several others in black and white, apparently at the same "event".

Do you want to have some fun with that page? Change the number 1 in the URL/address line, just before the .jpg, to a 2 and then press Enter. After that 3, and then 4 and then onward until you don't get any more McQueen. You will surely enjoy it!

#32 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 18:21

Just to sumarize the info as I see it in this thread then, if I may...

Chuck Jones bought a car located at AAR but never raced by AAR in October 1965 which he feels is Chassis #10, but which has the history of what has been known as chassis #8, to race as the #9 Lancer Lola in 1966 USRRC, which was then wrecked in 1967.

Jerry Grant raced a different "re-chassied" AAR Lola T70 which had been wrecked in October 1965 and was the "flowerpot car" and historically known as Chassis #10 and raced as Bardahl #8 in 1966 USRRC, which is now owned by DeFoor.


This is not a case of two cars claiming the same history. The two histories are for two different cars and they both raced in 1966.


#33 ssperka

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 18:29

Just to sumarize the info as I see it in this thread then, if I may...

Chuck Jones bought a car located at AAR but never raced by AAR in October 1965 which he feels is Chassis #10, but which has the history of what has been known as chassis #8, to race as the #9 Lancer Lola in 1966 USRRC, which was then wrecked in 1967.

Jerry Grant raced a different "re-chassied" AAR Lola T70 which had been wrecked in October 1965 and was the "flowerpot car" and historically known as Chassis #10 and raced as Bardahl #8 in 1966 USRRC, which is now owned by DeFoor.


This is not a case of two cars claiming the same history. The two histories are for two different cars and they both raced in 1966.

I agree with your summary. I do think that there is more to be learned on each, either via photos or first/second-hand experiences or a combination. It was good that the #9 race number photo surfaced for Chuck and us. Keep it coming! Thanks, very much, to all who have participated, so far.

#34 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 18:43

According to Martin Krejci, Lola T-70 s/n 70-10, went to Carroll Shelby on 5-30-65. Car was destroyed soon thereafter:

"Color: white. Destroyed during test session by Chuck Jones while presenting to journalists. Car later recreated in USA."



Tom


It should be noted that Chuck Jones states that this info is not correct. The flowerpot wreck occured 1965, but not the Chuck Jones car which was not wrecked until 1967.
I agree that the photos of the #9 car are awesome ! The tail and "look" of the car are fantastic.

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 16 September 2011 - 18:47.


#35 Option1

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 18:43

I'm not so sure I agree with the summary given that Chuck Jones was the man who actually had the car and has stated with some certainty that it was chassis #10.

Neil

#36 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 19:21

I'm not so sure I agree with the summary given that Chuck Jones was the man who actually had the car and has stated with some certainty that it was chassis #10.

Neil


I hate to seem dense, but I don't see the contention.
Just google SL70/10 and the Jerry Grant USRRC (in period) history comes up.
Then google SL70/8 and the Klug / Pacesetter (in period) history comes up which looks like it became the Lancer Lola to me.

I am NOT saying Chuck Jones is wrong. I'm saying he believes he bought chassis #10, and I am pointing out that Defoor believes he has the Jerry Grant car which
has been reported to be chassis #10 historically. This is very possible, for a multitude of reasons which I shall not address here.

There is no indication the Flowerpot / Grant/ DeFoor car has made any attempt to claim the history of the Jones car as they are two different cars. This is the point I am making. Any chassis number dispute originated in october 1965, when an AAR wreck, an AAR sale, an AAR purchase and a re-chassis occured..

It is not fair to disparage DeFoor's car due to a mis-reading of the nature of the chassis conflict. It is not the history, it is the number.


#37 Cynic2

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 20:03

I hate to seem dense, but I don't see the contention.
Just google SL70/10 and the Jerry Grant USRRC (in period) history comes up.
Then google SL70/8 and the Klug / Pacesetter (in period) history comes up which looks like it became the Lancer Lola to me.

(. . . )


I'm afraid I'm a bit dense, but I can't quite sort this out.

I agree: two cars, probably chassis numbers /8 and /10. I agree it's possible that Chuck (and I believe I can speak for him here, as he's a good friend) didn't record every number on every car; he, like most racers in that period, was more concerned with racing and winnng, and had little concern for the poor historian 40-some years later.

Then I Googled "Lola T70 SL/70/8" and got the history of a Lola T70 sold to Klug in 1965 (when Chuck got his unraced (emphasis -- it had not been race prepared yet) T70 from AAR, but chassis 8, while it has a rear deck similar to the one Chuck designed, doesn't mention Chuck Jones, Skip Hudson, or Lancer. Perhaps the same car, but I don't see any evidence here other than it was destroyed at Riverside.

Next I Googled "Lola SL/70/10 and got . . . nothing.

I have the second edition of Starkey's book down in my office, but from experience, I can't regard it either as complete or entirely accurate.


So I'm back where I started: two cars, with two or three race histories, one destroyed (which Chuck personally witnessed), and two cars existing today. Where have I gone wrong?

David

#38 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 20:25

Ah Haa ! I know this one ! You have too many forward slash marks...
it is SL70/10.
I do not know how many cars exist today. I am really just looking at the period of 1965-1966. The Klug/Pacesetter car had
special air intakes. The Jones car had the same special air intakes.

http://www.racingspo...6-08-28-009.jpg


There are certainly other possibilities, I was just trying to express what I was understanding.

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 16 September 2011 - 20:33.


#39 Cynic2

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 23:48

Ah Haa ! I know this one ! You have too many forward slash marks...
it is SL70/10.
I do not know how many cars exist today. I am really just looking at the period of 1965-1966. The Klug/Pacesetter car had
special air intakes. The Jones car had the same special air intakes.

http://www.racingspo...6-08-28-009.jpg


There are certainly other possibilities, I was just trying to express what I was understanding.



Thanks -- with the correct slash I could get to the page you referenced.

I think this issue remains confused, at best. I don't wish to say what car is good, bad, or a tach needle special today, as I have no idea. I do, though, think one thing is certain: Chuck Jones did not own the Klug car, presumably chassis 8.

Chuck knew John Klug, as that car's racing overlapped his, that is, both were racing at the same time. He feel it is possible the Klug team copied his (Lancer #9) Lola, but can't say for sure, but he is sure that they weren't the same car.

So, if we're trying to identify the Gurney/AAR/Jones/Meridian Racing/Lancer/Skip Hudson Lola, whatever it was, it wasn't chassis 8. (At least not that chassis 8, if Lola built more than one.)

Here's where I think we are: Chuck Jones owned a Lola T70, obtained (new and unraced) from Dan Gurney as part of a deal for Chuck's shop. That car, sponsored by Lancer, was driven by Skip Hudson. Chuck recalls that as chassis 10.

At about the same time, John Klug (of Newport Beach -- near Chuck in southern California) bought a Lola T70, chassis 8 if we belive the Internet, which was raced by Jerry Grant and/or Bob Bondurant. I haven't dug through everything, but I'd bet I can find both cars in the same race.

Then we have another Lola T70, possibly chassis 10, driven by Jerry Grant in period. I dug out John Starkey's Lola T70 book. He says that SL70/10 is "Probably the car driven by Jerry Grant, in which case . . . " and then he cites some races and history. Not definitive to me, not at all. After all, Grant supposedly raced chassis 8 (too?).

(In his book Starkey mentions Skip Hudson in only one place, on page 40, crediting him with third place in the 1965 USRRC Championship in a Lola T70, behind Chuck Parsons and Buck Fulp. In his chassis by chassis history neither Jones or Hudson is ever mentioned. Admittedly, Starkey's book is weak on the North American history of these cars.)

Then we have Dan Gurney's sardonic sense of humor. Perhaps when a reporter asked him what happened to the Lola, he might very well have said, "I made a flower pot out of it." Who knows?


With all of that, I believe chassis 8 is off the table; it couldn't be two places at the same time with two different owners, drivers, etc. I can't prove that Chuck did (or didn't) own chassis 10, but he sure didn't own 8.

The history of 10 (for Grant) seems to be based on presumptions, so I still lean toward this as the Chuck Jones Lola T70.

David

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#40 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 01:51

Jerry Grant made two appearances at Mosport in 1966 in a Lola T70. The first was the Player's 200 in June and the 2nd was for the Can Am event in September. Sadly, in the Player's 200 event in an early lap, Grant fell off the road exiting corner 2A and collected blue-flag marshal, Gordon Harrison, with fatal results to the marshal. I believe that I saw a photo in a daily of the accident scene with damage to the T70. For the Can Am, Grant apparently dyked the car over a series of berms which, back in the day, served as barriers to keep errant cars from reaching spectator areas. The location of the shunt wasn't obvious but I suspect it was at the final corner before the pits. I recall seeing a photo in SCG with the car well stuffed with Jerry sitting on the berm beside the T70. iirc, the caption stated, 'Anyone for a fast qualifier?'. Which chassis would have been involved in these races? The same in each? What was the fate of the Can Am chassis?



#41 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 02:46

Thanks -- with the correct slash I could get to the page you referenced.

I do, though, think one thing is certain: Chuck Jones did not own the Klug car, presumably chassis 8.

Chuck knew John Klug, as that car's racing overlapped his, that is, both were racing at the same time. He feel it is possible the Klug team copied his (Lancer #9) Lola, but can't say for sure, but he is sure that they weren't the same car.

So, if we're trying to identify the Gurney/AAR/Jones/Meridian Racing/Lancer/Skip Hudson Lola, whatever it was, it wasn't chassis 8.

David


David,
John Klug replaced his 1965 car, SL70/8, with SL71/18 for the 1966 season and it looked a lot like SL70/8, his 1965 car, with the same special air intakes. The same type as the Lancer Lola.

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 20 September 2011 - 04:31.


#42 Cynic2

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 03:47

David,
John Klug replaced his 1965 car, SL70/8, with SL71/18 for the 1966 season and it looked a lot like SL70/8, his 1965 car, with the same special air intakes. The same type as the Lancer Lola.
The Klug%2


I think this will explain the differences between the air intakes Chuck Jones designed for his Lola, and the different -- although similar in many ways -- air intakes on the Klug T70 (or T70s). There were (llinks to) earlier photos in this thread of the Klug car and the Pacesetter Homes car. I think the differences will be evident from these photos, from the Chuck Jones Collection:

(1) The Chuck Jones Lola T70 -- notice how low the intakes are, their shape, and how they are faired into the rear deck. (There are differences in the rear deck as well and the rear spoiler.)


Posted Image



Posted Image


Check this side view, to show the height above the rear fender line:


Posted Image



(2) Then, from a similar angle, the Klug Lola. From this, and the earlier photos, I think you will be able to see very clear differences, and all the Klug and Pacecetter cars use these same intakes:


Posted Image



(Again, all photos from the Chuck Jones Collection)


Like you, this is just an interest. I have no skin in this game, although, I would like to know which Lola T70 Jack Ensley raced in the SCCA CenDiv in 1969. The car, a birthday gift from his wife Beni, was purchased from George Bignotti, and was supposedly an ex-Mario Andretti/Parnellli Jones car.

David

(Edited to correct: links to the photos of the Klug/Pacesetter cars, not photos, earlier in the thread)

Edited by Cynic2, 18 September 2011 - 15:26.


#43 RA Historian

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 21:08

(In his book Starkey mentions Skip Hudson in only one place, on page 40, crediting him with third place in the 1965 USRRC Championship in a Lola T70, behind Chuck Parsons and Buck Fulp. In his chassis by chassis history neither Jones or Hudson is ever mentioned. Admittedly, Starkey's book is weak on the North American history of these cars.)

David, I share your caution when using anything Starkey wrote as reference. I have three or four of his books and his research in many areas is, shall we say, incomplete. I could cite many examples, but for the time being let us just use the example above, bold by me, in which Starkey gets a year completely wrong. The year Parsons won the USRRC, the same year that Fulp and Hudson drove Lola T-70s in the USRRC, was 1966, not 1965. Just one of many, I am afraid.
Tom

#44 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 14:53

The Bignotti car was perhaps chassis 37.
David, Chuck Jones said earlier he made his own tail.
Think if this thread was put into print and sold as a book.
Lots of speculation and misinformation so I feel for the authors
as they try to nail something down. In other words, why throw stones if you live in a glass house.

Edited by SCHKEE T332, 23 September 2011 - 12:33.


#45 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 15:21

The photos in this thread are fantastic. Please post more !

#46 Cynic2

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 22:39

The Bignotti car was chassis 37.
David, Chuck Jones said earlier he made his own tail.
Think if this thread was put into print and sold as a book.
Lots of speculation and misinformation so I feel for the authors
as they try to nail something down. In other words, why throw stones if you live in a glass house.


Johan,

I'm not sure I understand your agenda, but you're right; if we collected this thread (which I agree contains a substantial amount of misinformation) and published it as "complete" or "thorough" or anything like that, we should be on the receiving end of some fairly heavy rocks. We didn't and we won't, and in any case, this is the Internet, the serious historians best resource and worst nightmare.

On the other hand, at least two people active in this thread do live in glass houses. I'm one, having written two marque histories, with a complete chassis by chassis history of each car. I know how much time and effort and research it takes, and from that the difficulty of writing a history of Lola T70s, to take an example. Perhaps this make it easier for me to recognize why certain books cannot be accepted as a complete resources, no matter what they claim on their dust jacket.

I think that is about all I can add to this thread. I have an opinion about which T70 Chuck Jones owned; you and others have a different opinion. That's the nature of the Internet. Unfortunately, there is no definitive book or website which will resolve those difference. Thanks for the information on a/the Bignotti Lola; unfortunately the Starkey book doesn't quite agree. I rest my case.

David

#47 SCHKEE T332

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 04:29

I think we agree that Chuck Jones owned the beautiful Lancer Lola and that it was a different car than the Grant Lola.
With progress like that who can complain.


#48 Simon Hadfield

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 08:06

Like Chevron B19s I really don't think the history of many Lola T70s bear too much scrutiny. That truck load of early F5000s with no suspension discussed on here sometime ago all gave their suspension to T70s, various "dealers" over here have admitted to robbing T142s for their extremities to knock up Spyders - it is only since the ability through the internet to forensically examine histories and to share knowledge that this has been brought out into the open. I think that there are people who do know exactly what they have sold and in some cases exactly what they do own but for many reasons (some for hundreds of thousands of reasons) will not share that information!