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Nürburgring. A few b&w pictures from my friend's archive


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#51 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 19:00

If we assume that the driver sitting on the wheel has some proprietorial claim on the car, then can we get any clues from the car itself? It's obviously not a Protos. The front suspension geometry definitely rules out Lotus 48, Matra, Cooper and Brabham BT23, and I think also the earlier Brabham BT16 and BT14, and Oliver's Lotus 41B. That leaves the McLaren M4A, Lola T100 and Alexis 8. The engine looks nothing like the Apfelbeck-headed BMW as seen in Hahne's car in post 40 of this thread. I've no idea about the Alexis, but the front suspension looks very M4A-ish to me. So if the driver goes with the car (and I know it's a fairly big if) then I'm sticking with Courage.

Edited by Tim Murray, 16 September 2011 - 19:02.


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#52 MCS

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 19:50

So if the driver goes with the car (and I know it's a fairly big if) then I'm sticking with Courage.


Me too - never doubted it, but everybody sees things differently.

Perhaps somebody could ask Mr Oliver? Apparently he lives a just a few miles from me, but I've no idea where that is.

Edited by MCS, 16 September 2011 - 19:51.


#53 Arese

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 08:47

I am currently at Goodwood, but will ask my friend Harry when I am back. Hopefully he will still know whom he took a picture of. :)

#54 Catalina Park

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 09:02

I think it is Piers with a bad haircut.

#55 Arese

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 09:57

In the meantime we can have a look at the "real" Hubert Hahne with the picture taken at the same venue. There is Klaus Steinmetz in the back of the garage. You didn't see him very often without shades.

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#56 DogEarred

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 10:42

Kurt Ahrens Jr?

#57 Duc-Man

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 13:05

I had at the Eifelrennen last week a talk with Oliver Steinmetz and you can tell he is his fathers son.

#58 Arese

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 20:28

Eifelrennen 1967 (once more). Who is it?

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#59 MCS

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 20:29

(I think) it is Brian Redman and John Surtees.

Edited to say "I think"

Edited by MCS, 17 September 2011 - 20:30.


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#60 Barry Boor

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 20:43

I'd go along with that.

Certainly Surtees and it looks like BR.

#61 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 20:44

Me too. It's definitely Surtees's Lola in the foreground.

#62 E1pix

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 20:54

Me too. It's definitely Surtees's Lola in the foreground.

Agreed, definitely John surtees for sure, and likely Redman also. [Brian, can you turn clockwise a bit, please?]

Per the "Jackie Oliver" debate, can't say who it is but am confident who it isn't.... that is most certainly not Jackie Oliver. I'd bet a nugget on it if that wouldn't hurt so much. Different nose bridge, hair type, tooth gap on the gent in question, eyebrows, everything.

Not sure I've ever studied a face in these terms before. At least, not a guy's. :)

#63 Arese

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:02

Yes, I would also say I am pretty sure about John Surtees standing on the right and also about Brian Redman on the left.

This one is easy for us locals:

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#64 E1pix

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:06

Hmmmm.... can I use the "I'm not local" excuse? :)

#65 Arese

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:08

On a sidenote I must say that I would love to provide those images in better quality. However, they are what they are. Some have been scanned from b/w negatives; others were available as prints only, because for whatever reason Harry would no longer have the negatives on hand. Finally, more than 40 years have passed ... Nevertheless, it's better to view them in poor quality than not at all, I think.

#66 Arese

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:11

Hmmmm.... can I use the "I'm not local" excuse? :)


Sure. :) "Local" in this case would mean a range of about 350 km.

#67 E1pix

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:17

On a sidenote I must say that I would love to provide those images in better quality. However, they are what they are. Some have been scanned from b/w negatives; others were available as prints only, because for whatever reason Harry would no longer have the negatives on hand. Finally, more than 40 years have passed ... Nevertheless, it's better to view them in poor quality than not at all, I think.

As one whose life has turned from "traveling photographer" to "scanning photographer," I'd be happy to advise it it would help.

The ones I think need help are certainly both help-worthy, and help-able. These are fantastic images!

Sure. :) "Local" in this case would mean a range of about 350 km.

Well, Um, I'm probably 10,000 km away from Europe.... but still not a good excuse!  ;)

#68 MCS

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:20

It is Gerhard Mitter of course.

Irrespective, Arese, these pictures are quite, quite wonderful - thank you so much for taking the time and trouble post them here.


#69 Arese

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:30

It is Gerhard Mitter of course.

Irrespective, Arese, these pictures are quite, quite wonderful - thank you so much for taking the time and trouble post them here.


Thank you. Yes, it is the unforgotten Gerhard Mitter. Would we see today's drivers sitting in their cars and writing autographs? Probably not.

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#70 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:42

Irrespective, Arese, these pictures are quite, quite wonderful - thank you so much for taking the time and trouble post them here.

Agreed absolutely.

#71 ChrisJson

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 21:43

Not sure I've ever studied a face in these terms before. At least, not a guy's. :)



Likewise, Eric.

But I´m reasonably sure it´s Hubert Hahne.
Look at jacket, earlobes, eyebrows and the "round" face.

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#72 E1pix

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 22:02

Likewise, Eric.

But I´m reasonably sure it´s Hubert Hahne.
Christer

Glad to hear that! :lol:

Actually, I don't even know Hubert, I was just saying it wasn't Jackie Oliver. :)

#73 Arese

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 09:50

Practice session for the German GrandPrix in 1966. The No. 1

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#74 Arese

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 17:50

Gerhard Mitter again, driving a Brabham F2 car in a practice session of the 1967 Grand Prix.

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#75 r.atlos

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 22:07

:lol: :lol:

I can't believe it - Harry must have been some 20 yards to my right !

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It's a small, small world ...

#76 Arese

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 22:24

:lol: :lol:

I can't believe it - Harry must have been some 20 yards to my right !

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It's a small, small world ...


Indeed, this is really amazing - more than 44 years on. Maybe we can find a few more twin shots.

#77 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 06:08

Kurt Ahrens Jr?


I don't believe Courage, Hahne, or Oliver are listed in the results for this race (see post #45), but Ahrens is.

Vince H.


#78 Arese

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 06:42

Grand Prix weekend 1968. I sneaked into the garage of Kurt Ahrens to have my programme signed by him. From that I can tell the "unknown" driver in post #17 is not Kurt Ahrens. I still believe it is Piers Courage, but we will see ...
Don't be irritated by the tyres at the wall. They belong to Jochen Rindt's car, not to Ahrens'.

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#79 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 07:03

I don't believe Courage, Hahne, or Oliver are listed in the results for this race (see post #45), but Ahrens is.

Vince H.


Sorry, wrong year. Here is the link to the 1967 results:

http://www.formula2.net/F267No10.htm

(I should be in bed!)

Vince H.


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#80 DogEarred

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 19:41

Kurt Ahrens Jr?

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I'm still almost convinced it's young Kurt Ahrens. Although he does not appear on the results for 1967, he does appear in 1966. Could the caption be one year out ? Or could he have been racing in 1967 but in a different catagory?
The likeness (e.g. 'beaky nose', 'chubby face' & sideburns) does it for me. Later photos show a moustache.

#81 r.atlos

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 20:56

I'm still almost convinced it's young Kurt Ahrens. Although he does not appear on the results for 1967, he does appear in 1966. Could the caption be one year out ? Or could he have been racing in 1967 but in a different catagory?
The likeness (e.g. 'beaky nose', 'chubby face' & sideburns) does it for me. Later photos show a moustache.

There was no snow in 1966 and F2 was still a 1000 cc affair with mainly SCA engines. Not sure if the FVA was already on the drawing board but it was definately not in a car.

And no, it's not Kurt Ahrens.

The Eifelrennen was usually a motor cycle plus Formula 2 (or previously Junior) so it must be someone from the F2 field.

#82 r.atlos

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 21:14

If I go over Stefan's result list again, the only person where I cannot put a face to the name is Alexis driver Philip Robinson.

However - the car "our" driver is sitting on is not an Alexis Mk.8; that would have had Alford & Alder front uprights and a BRM twin cam in the back.

#83 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 21:36

The garage photo captures Piers, quite typically philosophical while the camera angle makes his face look fatter than it really was, hence the Ahrens Jr suggestion, while Chris Irwin seems characteristically impatient and cheesed-off by the weather - Courage and Irwin.

DCN

#84 Arese

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 21:39

A strange scene from that frosty day - an abandoned Lotus. I believe it is a Type 48, so either Jim Clark's or Graham Hill's car.

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#85 E1pix

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 21:48

What a rare and remarkable image!

Is that per chance Jimmy with the corner worker?

#86 Arese

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 22:04

What a rare and remarkable image!

Is that per chance Jimmy with the corner worker?


I have no idea, but I don't think that we are looking at a driver, because he is wearing a jacket. Well, this might have been a pic from a practice session and there is an image in Harry's archive showing Jochen Rindt driving in a (warm) jacket. But the point where the Lotus was parked - the Nordkehre - was pretty close to the tunnel that connected the paddock with the pits. The driver probably would have walked back to his garage.

#87 ChrisJson

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Posted 19 September 2011 - 23:44

The garage photo captures Piers, quite typically philosophical while the camera angle makes his face look fatter than it really was, hence the Ahrens Jr suggestion, while Chris Irwin seems characteristically impatient and cheesed-off by the weather - Courage and Irwin.

DCN



I knew we could count on you to settle this matter, Doug!

I stand corrected.


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#88 Arese

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 06:55

Jacky Ickx and Brian Redman (behind the wheel) won the 1000 km race 1973 in a Ferrari 312 PB. The section where we see the car here is the beginning of the long straight, called Döttinger Höhe". The right hand corner in the backdrop is "Galgenkopf", the one you would try to carry out of as much speed as possible. I was cowering next to the photographer after we had somehow managed to climb up to this point behind the guard rail which was not an official place for spectators, of course. Even today I do remember that breathtaking seconds when the 12 cylinder Ferrari (but also Alfa and Matra) roared past us, just a few inches away.

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#89 Barry Boor

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 07:39

I have to believe Doug because, well, he's Doug.... but I've looked in my Adam Cooper book about Piers and I am still having terrible trouble connecting that round faced chap sitting on the wheel with P.C.

#90 David McKinney

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:08

I was sure from the start it was him - until everyone started throwing in other possibilities :)

#91 Arese

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 09:57

This is the shot that I mentioned. Jochen Rindt driving in a jacket - obviously to keep him warm. I don't know whether or not the picture was taken in practice, but I believe that it was not taken during the race.

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#92 Arese

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 20:15

A well known Italian, 1000 km race 1967.

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Edited by Arese, 20 September 2011 - 20:16.


#93 Arese

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 20:27

The quality of this image is everything but perfect, but as a boy I was happy only to have some (very simple) camera equipment. Scanning a very small print didn't make it any better. Nevertheless, an interesting example of what you could see quite often in those days at the Ring: the driver on his way from the paddock to the pits, passing the tunnel that I mentioned before and driving a distance of up to 400 meters (depending where the garage and pit location was). Most of the drivers carried the crash helmet in their lap instead of wearing it.

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#94 jj2728

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 20:47

A well known Italian, 1000 km race 1967.

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Scarfiotti

#95 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 21:06

That Scarfiotti photo appears, uncredited, on the Scarfiotti Facebook page. I do hope it's OK with you and Harry for them to use it, Michael.

#96 E1pix

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 21:25

That Scarfiotti photo appears, uncredited, on the Scarfiotti Facebook page. I do hope it's OK with you and Harry for them to use it, Michael.

And if you're unaware, Arese, a perfect use for this fabulous, free tool for finding infringers:
http://www.tineye.com/

#97 elansprint72

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 21:29

It was not uncommon for drivers to wear jackets or even woollen pullovers over their thin overalls, when the weather was inclement (before they became mobile advertisments, that is!).

What a superb selection of photos. :up:

#98 Arese

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 22:08

That Scarfiotti photo appears, uncredited, on the Scarfiotti Facebook page. I do hope it's OK with you and Harry for them to use it, Michael.



Thank you for mentioning this. I had posted many of these pictures on 2 other forums before. In an early stage I had not inserted the "©" and Harry's name, but from the text that came with the images it was pretty obvious who owned the rights. I found a few of these pictures on the web since those days and somtimes I was asked by people if they could also post them - and I always confirmed. In case of Scarfiottis portrait, well, Harry wouldn't mind and so do I but I'd say it's not good style, in particular since there are only a handful of portraits of the great Italian driver available. On the other hand it is also a compliment to Harry's shot, isn't it?

#99 E1pix

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 22:15

Thank you for mentioning this. I had posted many of these pictures on 2 other forums before. In an early stage I had not inserted the "©" and Harry's name, but from the text that came with the images it was pretty obvious who owned the rights. I found a few of these pictures on the web since those days and somtimes I was asked by people if they could also post them - and I always confirmed. In case of Scarfiottis portrait, well, Harry wouldn't mind and so do I but I'd say it's not good style, in particular since there are only a handful of portraits of the great Italian driver available. On the other hand it is also a compliment to Harry's shot, isn't it?

Two thoughts, if I may, from someone tired of being ripped off of my life's work:

1) Always have a © on the image if used on the web.
— Once it's downloaded without it, it's fair game and non-traceable unless you place copyright info in File Info (metadata) — most are unaware of accessing or honoring that, however.

2) Copyright infringement is stealing, and thus is not a compliment.

Apologies, carry on with your wonderful images!

Edited by E1pix, 20 September 2011 - 22:16.


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#100 Arese

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Posted 20 September 2011 - 22:25

Two thoughts, if I may, from someone tired of being ripped off of my life's work:

1) Always have a © on the image if used on the web.
— Once it's downloaded without it, it's fair game and non-traceable unless you place copyright info in File Info (metadata) — most are unaware of accessing or honoring that, however.

2) Copyright infringement is stealing, and thus is not a compliment.

Apologies, carry on with your wonderful images!


I found that a second picture on this Scarfiotti FB site is taken from Harry's archive. In the beginning it was my fault not to mark the images with a Copyright ©. Nevertheless, Harry really doesn't care and today I am worried about not mentioning his name more than he would ever be.

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Edited by Arese, 21 September 2011 - 07:57.