91 replies to this topic

[E1pix]

Rather like nascar!

C'Mon, RA, you gotta like some of those guys, You Know, the #2 or the #24 or the #789 or the #........ [end of interest]

[Edit: Hey, wait a minute, you at the Runoffs? My old bud Scott Rubenzer was robbed, fast laps all race long, but....]

Edited by E1pix, 24 September 2011 - 22:28.

[ggnagy]

Some thing that made me sad, and kind of got my hackles up, was all the new small class RWD sports cars that were created and produced over the past twenty some years.
Pre-82 they probably could have found their way into one of the SCCA production classes and/or smaller sports car classes in pro races.

One could have had the small Pontiac/Saturn, BMW shoebox, Mazda, and others I cannot think of being homolgated and raced for sales room purposes but Tube-frames killed any chances of that ever happening.

Up until last year, I still had the Autoweek and Competition Press where the SCCA spokesman so proudly proclaimed the SCCA was going to drop is homologation production rules and imitate NASCAR.

Brilliant!

From the EP section of the PCS:
EP
Prep Level
Weight(lbs)
Engine Type
Bore x Stroke mm/(in.)
Displ. cc/(ci)(nominal)
Block Mat’l
Head/PN & Mat’l
Valves IN & EX mm/(in.)
Carb. No. & Type
Wheelbase mm/(in.)
Track (F/R) mm/(in.)

BMW Z3 1.9L
2
2000 * 2050 ** 2100
4 Cyl DOHC
85.1 x 83.6 (3.35x3.29)
1895 (115.6)
Iron
Alum
(I) 33.0 /(1.30) (E) 30.5/(1.20)
(2) Auto-type sidedrafts w/ 30mm choke(s), or fuel injection.
2446 (96.3)
1481/1565 (58.3/61.6)


Pontiac Solsitce (06-09)
2
2620 * 2686 ** 2751
4 Cyl DOHC
88.0 x 98.0
2384
Alum
Alum
(I) 32.25 (E) 30.25
Fuel Injection
95.1
65.1 / 65.8

Honda S2000 (00-03)
2
2520 * 2583 ** 2646
4 Cyl DOHC
87.0 x 84.0
1997
Alum
Alum
(I) 36.0 (E) 31.0
Fuel Injection
94.5
62.1 / 63.7

Mazda MX-5 /Miata (94-97)
2
2050 * 2101 ** 2153
4 Cyl DOHC
83.0 x 85.0
1840
Iron
Alum
(I) 33.1 (E) 28.2
Fuel injection
2266
58.4 / 59.4

What unnamed small RWD sports car is missing again?

Oh yes, also all prep level two, which means you cannot relocate suspension pickup points, therefore NOT tube frame cars.

The manufacturers chose to throw their weight behind the Touring/SS specifications, which in spite of being everything being lamented as missing from Production, has limped along horribly.

[ggnagy]

The answer was on display today at the SCCA runoffs, DSR. 2 min flat pole time with a < 1L bike engined car. Scrap the current IMSA Lights setup, and let in any make, any tire to DSR rules. there is a ready made engine war taking place with bikes. They don't have to be endurance cars, after all, they just have to be the modern iteration of Can AM.

[Bob Riebe]

Rather like nascar!

The only good thing about NASCAR, and I mean the only thing left, is that the engines are still what makes the series go round to the point the big three and Toyota spent huge sums of money developing engines for the series, and told the France boy when he said they were going to a generic engine in the future, that they would walk and not allow their names on any car NASCAR if he did.

Too bad all of the GT makes did not take that attitude with the IMSA while they dicked around with ACO equivalence spec. willy-nilly.

Damn the big three all have pony cars, and at least two if not all three, produce production race cars that cannot be licensed, by most legal rules. Where is the real Trans-Am?

[E1pix]

The answer was on display today at the SCCA runoffs, DSR. 2 min flat pole time with a < 1L bike engined car. Scrap the current IMSA Lights setup, and let in any make, any tire to DSR rules. there is a ready made engine war taking place with bikes. They don't have to be endurance cars, after all, they just have to be the modern iteration of Can AM.

So true, the Stohr cars are flat-out amazing! For them to run 3 seconds faster than the L&M Porsche 917/10 with 1,000 less horses is truly incredible! Yes, they should be in a Pro class somewhere, 13 of the 16 on the grid were all Stohrs. I saw that nobody broke 2 minutes as hoped, hearing whomever did was to get something or another.... 2012.

Damn the big three all have pony cars, and at least two if not all three, produce production race cars that cannot be licensed, by most legal rules. Where is the real Trans-Am?

Gone. Factory-re-prioritized as NASCAR. Sucks.

[cheapracer]

the sanction saying the spectators are to damn stupid to know any difference.

Most of them are, you are car savvy and hang with like minded people and that's why it comes as a surprise to you.

The answer was on display today at the SCCA runoffs, DSR. 2 min flat pole time with a < 1L bike engined car.

So true, the Stohr cars are flat-out amazing!

Go and price one up.

[E1pix]

Go and price one up.

Already have, and a hint to my pro series comment. Dirt cheap for a pro car capable of two minutes at RA....

[cheapracer]

Dirt cheap

$60,000+ even relative to $500,000 is still a lot of money to almost everybody.

[Duc-Man]

The trouble with the highlighted above is it is same ****-same pile. The so called "different" bodies makes it worse as it is a scam trying to foist on the public same-**** same-taste only it looks different on the surface.
Road racing has always been about one brand proving it is better than another brand and for any series to use faux variety is the sanction saying the spectators are to damn stupid to know any difference.

About the underlined: what about drivers?
In europe were so many single brand cups and formulae hold, I can't name them all. No matter if that was Renault 5 or VW Polo cup or Formula Opel-Lotus, it were always identical cars and it was road racing and it was about the drivers.

The highlighted above might apply to the people in the US. The spectators in the 'old world' have a different approach to the subject. With V8-Star they knew that the cars were all the same.
You could call todays DTM almost a spec series. It's only two brands with a total of 18 cars. The regulations are very strikt. They even have to use a list of identical parts. And it still pulls a lot of people to the races. Why? Because of the drivers that race the cars.
Same with formula 3 today. It is usually one chassis combined with two or three different engines.

Imagine you take 30 Chevy Camaros (can it get more 'spec'?)and you put the top ten drivers of Indy-Car, NASCAR and ALMS in and let them race.
Nobody will give a flying shite if the cars are all the same or not because they wanna see their hero put on a good show and win.
On the big scale there are two kinds of spactators: the ones that support their brand or the ones that support their hero-driver. And IMHO there are way more person than brand related race fans in the US.

Shall everything that isn't 'original' racing be banned and stop?

[RA Historian]

C'Mon, RA, you gotta like some of those guys, You Know, the #2 or the #24 or the #789 or the #........ [end of interest]

[Edit: Hey, wait a minute, you at the Runoffs? My old bud Scott Rubenzer was robbed, fast laps all race long, but....]

Just what the hell is the " #2 or the #24 or the #789 or the #........ " Don't they have names or is the typical nascar fan (not you, Eric) such an illiterate boob that anything more than one syllable is unprounceable to them? As far as "you gotta like some of those guys," , no, I don't. You do not want to know what I really think about nascar and everything and everyone about it.

Yes, I am at the Runoffs and have been since Wed AM. Writing reports for Sports Car magazine. I can't say that Rubenzer was robbed when he spun and later retired. Whatever, it was a disappointment as he surely was bound for a spot on the podium.

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 25 September 2011 - 16:01.

[E1pix]

Just what the hell is the " #2 or the #24 or the #789 or the #........ " Don't they have names or is the typical nascar fan (not you, Eric) such an illiterate boob that anything more than one syllable is unprounceable to them? As far as "you gotta like some of those guys," , no, I don't. You do not want to know what I really think about nascar and everything and everyone about it.

Yes, I am at the Runoffs and have been since Wed AM. Writing reports for Sports Car magazine. I can't say that Rubenzer was robbed when he spun and later retired. Whatever, it was a disappointment as he surely was bound for a spot on the podium.

Tom

I know full well what you think of NASCAR, hence my strictest sarcasm, we've discussed it before here and via horn.... and I agree. Beyond, your "syllabic analysis" is an old joke of mine. But, "#24" does push those boundaries with five of them.... [comic sarcasm]

Per Scott, "robbed" meant "short end of stick." I watched it on Speedcast and he suddenly disappeared without comment there. I also had live timing up and take it he spun trying to defend from Cliff Johnson, any fault or comment? Even after that, there were several laps that he turned quickest.

Wish we were there, Have Fun!

Edited by E1pix, 25 September 2011 - 17:25.

[E1pix]

Shall everything that isn't 'original' racing be banned and stop?

I agree with everything you've said.

[RA Historian]

Per Scott, "robbed" meant "short end of stick." I watched it on Speedcast and he suddenly disappeared without comment there. I also had live timing up and take it he spun trying to defend from Cliff Johnson, any fault or comment? Even after that, there were several laps that he turned quickest.

Reid Hazleton and Scott Rubenzer were running one-two. Would have been a local 1-2, but both went out.

Raining all day today,. Races are very wet.

Tom

[E1pix]

Reid Hazleton and Scott Rubenzer were running one-two. Would have been a local 1-2, but both went out.

Raining all day today,. Races are very wet.

Tom

Thanks, RA, I'm watching live.... [online]

[Bob Riebe]

About the underlined: what about drivers?
In europe were so many single brand cups and formulae hold, I can't name them all. No matter if that was Renault 5 or VW Polo cup or Formula Opel-Lotus, it were always identical cars and it was road racing and it was about the drivers.

The highlighted above might apply to the people in the US. The spectators in the 'old world' have a different approach to the subject. With V8-Star they knew that the cars were all the same.
You could call todays DTM almost a spec series. It's only two brands with a total of 18 cars. The regulations are very strikt. They even have to use a list of identical parts. And it still pulls a lot of people to the races. Why? Because of the drivers that race the cars.
Same with formula 3 today. It is usually one chassis combined with two or three different engines.

Imagine you take 30 Chevy Camaros (can it get more 'spec'?)and you put the top ten drivers of Indy-Car, NASCAR and ALMS in and let them race.
Nobody will give a flying shite if the cars are all the same or not because they wanna see their hero put on a good show and win. (The much ballyhooed IROC was so popular it is run where? Beyond allowing Steve Kinser to show he was as good as some think by winning one race on one of the good ol' boys tracks, years back, its distinction among racing in general is zero. More like a circus side-show.)
On the big scale there are two kinds of spectators: the ones that support their brand or the ones that support their hero-driver. And IMHO there are way more person than brand related race fans in the US.

Shall everything that isn't 'original' racing be banned and stop?

Yes I should have put in, in the USA.
Several sanctions have tried to float-hero driver worship-as the main pull- and Indy and even NASCAR are not what they used to be.(Which is why NASCAR crapped in its pants when Detroit told them what would happen if they used a generic engine.) In road racing is it a DOA proposition.
It is fine for week-end racers who are there with friends doing what they love to do, but as far as bringing in fans that pay track bills- as I said, DOA.

The U.S. had many makes of cars that once and still have loyal fans and buyers. Drag racing seems to be t he only for of motor sport in the U.S. that still knows how to use the old gear-head make loyalty to not only get in fans, but get Detroit to spend money keep those fans happy.
Both Dodge and Ford, I am not sure of Chevy, build production line racers, that could be used for road racing if road racing pulled its head out of its buttocks, but for now they are used by drag racers.

Hell, in a kind of twisted brew- they could take the NASCAR engines; reduce them to 4x3 bore and stroke no other engine specs. period; put them in the Camaro, Challenger and Mustang and have sort of a strange-brew Trans-CAR series.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 26 September 2011 - 16:00.

[cheapracer]

Hell, in a kind of twisted brew- they could take the NASCAR engines; reduce them to 4x3 bore and stroke no other engine specs. period; put them in the Camaro, Challenger and Mustang and have sort of a strange-brew Trans-CAR series.

They don't have to modify the engine at all, just throw them into various chassis for the appropriate series - Can Am, F5000, Nascar, Trans Am, Sportscars were all once running at the same time not far removed from that configuration. At least you could have Nascar, Indycar and a Trans Am series using Nascar engines as they are now.

Too logical for sure.

Some interesting comments in this but that Miller guy contradicts himself a few times ...

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

It's been many, many months since the last post in this topic. The ALMS is coming to Mosport...sorry; Canadian Tire Motorsport Park...in several weeks and I'm keen to learn if this is showing any signs of life.

[E1pix]

Thanks Manfred, I was just thinking of this thread when posting on the Lola T70/RA thread.

I've tried to look to see if this is alive, please let us know if you find anything. I for one hope it is.

[arttidesco]

Photo courtesy Geoffrey Horton.

I was probably reminded of this thread for exactly the same reason as E1Pix, last I heard, and I hope this is not a case of a film going straight to DVD, was that one of the cars appeared at the Desert Classic Concours d'Elegance Palm Springs back in February.

[E1pix]

Oh My, is that a beauty or what???

I really hope this happens...

[arttidesco]

Oh My, is that a beauty or what???

I really hope this happens...

I sincerely hope I am not pouring cold water on your hope's but nothing has been added to this "Media" page since September 16th 2011

On the other hand we have evidence of one black car, one white car and a red one, one more than is required to make a race

[E1pix]

Nah, I read the same page a few weeks back.

Yep, they could alternate at the drag strip.

[gfastr]

I sincerely hope I am not pouring cold water on your hope's but nothing has been added to this "Media" page since September 16th 2011

On the other hand we have evidence of one black car, one white car and a red one, one more than is required to make a race

These cars are supposed to be at Lime Rock for an "exhibition" this weekend as part of the ALMS event. "Who "and "how many" are either a mystery or a secret

[E1pix]

If you're going, please Do Tell on return.

Are we presuming this as a "moving exhibition?" (I'm tiring of my voice copy of the 510 ci — the wife more so ;) )

[arttidesco]

If you're going, please Do Tell on return.

Are we presuming this as a "moving exhibition?" (I'm tiring of my voice copy of the 510 ci — the wife more so ;) )

Reading the Lime Rock webpage schedule looks like not just 'a' moving exhibition but 'two' half hour sessions !

Hope there is a TNFer out there who can post some pics

[E1pix]

Hey, that looks good, actually three half-hour sessions — perhaps a Practice, a Quali, and a race (of sorts). Beats "nothing" by a whole heap, maybe this thing has a chance.

Appreciate the info, Thanks Artti!

[RA Historian]

As I understand it, this has never gotten off the ground. Only three cars built, no interested buyers. As I have been told, the three cars the company built are all still company owned. Why on earth would someone pay half a million dollars for a semi-replica when the real thing can be purchased for half that?

It was an idea for a series that no one asked for. If it is dead, and I hope so, good riddance.

[RA Historian]

Reading the Lime Rock webpage schedule looks like not just 'a' moving exhibition but 'two' half hour sessions !

Hey, that looks good, actually three half-hour sessions — perhaps a Practice, a Quali, and a race (of sorts).

Just took a look. If it was there, it isn't anymore. Only ALMS is on the schedule.

[sblick]

As I understand it, this has never gotten off the ground. Only three cars built, no interested buyers. As I have been told, the three cars the company built are all still company owned. Why on earth would someone pay half a million dollars for a semi-replica when the real thing can be purchased for half that?

It was an idea for a series that no one asked for. If it is dead, and I hope so, good riddance.

I thought the idea on this was an "arrive and drive" situation. You paid 495,000 for the car but they did all the maintenance and brought the car to the races all set up and ready for you. I'm sure most of us would not like to pay the bills to maintain, prep and trailer a McLaren or Lola Can-Am car.

[E1pix]

Tom hates it, and there's no changing his mind.

[arttidesco]

Just took a look. If it was there, it isn't anymore. Only ALMS is on the schedule.

Well I guess there are still plenty of Concours d'Elegance events left for the cars to appear in, what chance one of these gets picked to win Pebble Beech

[RA Historian]

Tom hates it

No I don't. I hate very little in life. But I do not like this proposed series or the thinking behind it for many, many reasons, and frankly am not at all disappointed that it is DOA. Last fall when this silly thing was announced I predicted that it would never fly and that if it did manage to get off the ground that it would be gone in a year and it appears that I was right.

[E1pix]

Okay, "immense personal disdain" then. Just trying to lighten it up, Tom.

Maybe the biggest hurdle is the cars are too bloody expensive, especially for a start-up venture in a terrible economic climate. But if in the prosperous '90s, who knows?

Beyond that, I find no fault and have nothing but admiration for anyone's passion to relive a nostalgic past. It's the heart and soul of vintage racing, but those cars are too valuable to be raced like in the '70s. It seems we'd all agree that we liked racing better in the '70s than now, so what's wrong with trying? I find it hard to be pleased over anyone's failure, especially when based on something to invigorate our racing passions and memories.

If you can tell me what would be better than a track full of these cars, I'm all ears.

Thanks, Tom.

[RA Historian]

If you can tell me what would be better than a track full of these cars, I'm all ears.

To me, a track full of F-1, Indy Cars, ALMS, heck even Grand Am, to start. First of all, there never will be a track full of these ersatz M8Fs. The series will never get going. Secondly, I would rather even watch an SCCA club RACE with drivers out there trying hard to win than a few checkbook racers out there in cars way beyond their skill level trying to impress their tootsies/trophy wives/country club cronies with "hey! Look at me! I'm a Can Am driver!" As I have said before, a recipe for disaster.

But actually, I think all this is moot, as I would be most surprised if this ever happens in any form.

[E1pix]

Understood, Tom, and I love all the formulae you mentioned. Yes, early on it would likely be "gentleman drivers" buying rides, which despite any connotations still gets some cars built. (another "if," sorry )

My thinking was absolute best-case scenario... that in the remote chance it were successful, with drivers equaling the depth of other series', it'd be awesome. My doubts arose as soon as I saw "$485K" vs. today's budgets, so agree it'd be 'surprising.' An unrealistic hope? Yes, but so were other great things in their infancies.

But sadly for many, this one is unlikely to see the light of day nor the light it would give its fans.

[RA Historian]

An unrealistic hope? Yes, but so were other great things in their infancies

Sorry, but this silly thing had "joke" written all over it from the start.

[arttidesco]

After looking at some of the comedy that passes for gentleman racing in a one model Ferrari series at a track in California on you tube recently I do not believe the $485K is the issue, I suspect the real issue is that the target market has little idea what the 'original' Can Am was all about and as has already been suggested their skill levels are probably not up to it.

Much as I'd personally rather see these vehicles getting trashed by cheque book racers than originals or fakes getting passed off as originals I fear Tom was correct in his analysis.

[sblick]

So does anyone know if this "demonstration" happened or not?

[RA Historian]

So does anyone know if this "demonstration" happened or not?

Last I looked, which was just before the race, it was not on the schedule.

[Bob Riebe]

There are three of them, I have an idea.

Put a Chebby, Dodge and Ford eight hundred or so inch cubed Mountain Motor in each of them, complete with the two four barrel carbs often used, get some retired hot shoe drives and put on a show at Road America.

Hell, just trying to set up the carbs will bring some former NASCAR engine specialists out to do their magic.

Make the prize money for first through last three hundred, two hundred and one hundred thousand, that should prevent a twenty lap parade.

[RA Historian]

I'm afraid that it is all pie in the sky. Everything I hear is that it will never happen.

As far as your idea of $600,000 in prize money, who is going to pay for that? When promoters/tracks are having one dickens of a time now meeting sanction fee and purse demands, such extravagance is out of the question.

[E1pix]

... As far as your idea of $600,000 in prize money, who is going to pay for that?

Took the words right out of my mouth.