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Is 'libre' racing-making a comeback?


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#1 carrotcruncher

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 14:39

My feeling is that "libre" racing could be making a comeback.Indeed I have realised that Ido not know the reason for it's loss?Was it something to do with the "powers"that rule our sport?,or simply that there were too many other championships to take part in ?Maybe Supersaloons and Thundersaloons had much to do with it.
I noticed at a recent meeting at snetterton that the organisers were on more than one occasion ,putting races with low grids into other championships to increase the competition and spectacle for us to enjoy.
What do others think?
Regards to all ,
Carrotcruncher.

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#2 Sharman

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 16:50

Please Please Please Anything to get away from the boring one make series.

#3 arttidesco

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 03:43

Simon Lewis has done his best this season to get Libre racing at Castle Combe going :- http://forums.autosp...hl=Castle Combe

I'm all in favour of a little variety :up:

#4 arttidesco

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 03:51

Please Please Please Anything to get away from the boring one make series.


I saw a couple of Caterham races last month and I was surprised how entertaining they were, but I agree a little variety does us no harm :smoking:

#5 elansprint72

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 08:24

Can't come back fast enough for me; I used to love the mix of contraptions which were pitched against each other.

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Edited by elansprint72, 23 September 2011 - 08:25.


#6 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:38

Can't come back fast enough for me; I used to love the mix of contraptions which were pitched against each other.

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Looks like a scene for the good old Lloyds & Scottish Historic series, Roddy MacPherson in the lead I believe?


Simon Lewis has done his best this season to get Libre racing at Castle Combe going :- http://forums.autosp...hl=Castle Combe

I'm all in favour of a little variety :up:


Well we tried Art ! There were various diverse " background reasons" why the result was less than had been hoped. I won't go into them here, but hopefully the lessons will have been learned by those at the helm.

It would be nice to get libre back to the way it was in the 1980s - although noise limits are always going to be a problem at the sharp end.

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In these financially constrained times I really think there is a place for this kind of event. But the organisers need to maintain a degree of reality, costs need to be kept sensible and limitations which can put drivers off entering , like having to register/pay to join a championship , or enter months in advance, must be kept out of the equation.

There is also a problem of vested interests. It seems some established series do not want to see 'their' cars race elsewhere for fear of 'losing' them.

I'm not sure if the MSA actively prevents/discourages open-wheelers and sports cars from running together on track but I got that impression. There was a parallel 'Open' Sports Car series at Combe which when it ran was sometimes very thin on entries (4 on one occasion).
Logic says that as the lap times of the majority of the sports cars and the single seaters were reasonably comparable they could have been combined and made for much healthier and more entertaining grids.
One strong grid is always far better than two weak ones. I would have thought?
Does anyone know if there is a rule that prevents this? And if so, why?









#7 petestenning

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 10:08

It is a great pity that we have lost the true Libre races, ie anything goes. I think the main reason is insurance will not allow mixing closed and open wheel cars , the modern ones at least.

As i have said before the loss of true clubbie racing with a wide variety of cars in the same race has sadly all but disappeared , HSCC comes closest with the two sports car series and DB Trophy etc .

My first statement is not entirely true as the 750 MC 6 hour relay does run with a variety of cars on track , its just a pity that so many are Caterhams , so speed differential is not an issue there, albeit no single seater's except the Austin Sevens/Fraser Nash/ contingent which are still two seater's in essence.


Pete

#8 elansprint72

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:04

I thought my previous photo looked a bit "posh" for Libre after I posted it. Thanks for putting me straight Simon. It was taken at the 75 Gold Cup when Knicker Brook was a proper corner.

Here is some real Libre from Longridge, Chris Meek at the front but who is behind?

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Edited by elansprint72, 23 September 2011 - 11:18.


#9 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 11:16

In New Zealand in "the good old days" most of the races were Formula Libre

#10 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:01

In New Zealand in "the good old days" most of the races were Formula Libre

As indeed they normally were at Brooklands, except for major specific events (200 miles, Double 12 etc).


#11 MCS

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:25

Here is some real Libre from Longridge, Chris Meek at the front but who is behind?


It's Phil Barak - also see http://www.racing70s...er/brabham2.htm



#12 cheapracer

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:48

Please Please Please Anything to get away from the boring one make series.


I want argue about the benefits of F Libre but there has been and could be spectacular one make series when it's done in mind for the drivers and not for the bloody manufacturers benefit. :mad:


#13 alansart

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 12:52

Peteborough Motor Club used to put on cracking Libre races in the 80's :)

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Photo: B McFarlane

Idiot in PRS: Me


#14 ray b

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 18:32

how many no class no rules cars are there runing today
not just old mix bag races

but pure go fast as it can outlaws

about the only ones that come to mind are hillclimbers
and top speed specials

7+L with turbos and moveable wings on superwide tyres
we need a real open unlimited class with one rule
fastest car wins

#15 elansprint72

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 20:26

Run what you brung. :up:

#16 Bob Riebe

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 20:28

I want argue about the benefits of F Libre but there has been and could be spectacular one make series when it's done in mind for the drivers and not for the bloody manufacturers benefit. :mad:

That only works if one/many are into hero driver worship and thank God, that does not seem to be the case.

#17 john aston

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 06:58

One make series are often dire - but good ones include BMW M1s(Procars), TVR Tuscans(our best ever one make series)and the various Caterham series offer racing which reminds me of the much missed proper FF1600.And the various proper Mini series are good too. But the MGFs, Proton Coupes(the nadir). Renault 5s, MX5s, Vectras. BMW Minis were usually dire , especially after first year when interest from name drivers started to wane. But Tuscans at Cadwell, Tuscans at a soaking Croft certainly quickened my pulse.

Libre racing is lovely- easy to follow (unlike tracking a full grid of MX5s) and offering all sorts of David v Goliath possibilities. As a kid I remember Tony Dean taking on U2s , FF1600s and Cotinas in his 908 Can AM winning Porsche or his B24 Chevron.He'd lap everybody but was still a great sight.

Here in N Yorks we have the Nothern Saloon and Sports championship which comes close to being Libre- no single seaters but evrything from bike engined Westfields, 250Bhp Caterhams, SEAT Cupra touring cars, V6 engined Rover 25, Marcos Mantis.TVRs various , V8 Sierras, ex works Renault 21turbo and lots of nutcase specials- try a Suzuki SC 100 with Hayabusa power or BDR spitfire.Works very well- shame we get more drivers than spectators at Croft...

#18 carrotcruncher

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 16:05

[quote name='john aston' date='Sep 24 2011, 07:58' post='5297608']
Thank you John et al..Delighted to hear that I am not the only spectator to feel this way,but it must apply to some of the drivers ,too[- more challenge etc,and most of all more fun !
I appreciate the comments and limits re insurance etc.But if its the only way our wonderful sport can grow,surely we MUST find a method that is acceptabe to drivers ,circuit owners,spectators .
As I see it , we could soon have a situation with dwindling grids,increased costs to drivers,less revenue to circuits,etc.
However ,I am encouraged to see that MSV have agreed to allow the Tamdown Rally to be held at my home circuit on Nov. 20th.I attended the old KLDMC "single venue" stages in the nineties,i think.They were great fun,usually very cold, but the extension to the otherwise truncated motorsport season was very welcome.I think they also tried a couple of Supermoto rounds,but I can only assume they were unsuccessful.
Variety is the spice of "motoring" Life, to paraprase a well known expression.
Regards to all.
carrotcruncher.

#19 Allan Lupton

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 16:28

There is a famous story of Pat Lindsay in the Napier-Railton, with rear brakes only, coming second in the wet in a Silverstone formule libre race - if this works it's the only photo I can find and it doesn't show any other competitors.
Posted Image

3 June 1963, Nottingham SCC meeting if memory serves. . .

Edited by Allan Lupton, 25 September 2011 - 16:35.


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#20 arttidesco

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 16:57

There is a famous story of Pat Lindsay in the Napier-Railton, with rear brakes only, coming second in the wet in a Silverstone formule libre race.

3 June 1963, Nottingham SCC meeting if memory serves. . .


Excellent photo presumably, no one else had 24 litres of engine braking to help them either ?

#21 Allan Lupton

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 17:08

Excellent photo presumably, no one else had 24 litres of engine braking to help them either ?

No, but that's back wheels only, like the brakes, so pretty unstable in those conditions.

#22 alansart

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 17:22

how many no class no rules cars are there runing today
not just old mix bag races

but pure go fast as it can outlaws

about the only ones that come to mind are hillclimbers
and top speed specials

7+L with turbos and moveable wings on superwide tyres
we need a real open unlimited class with one rule
fastest car wins


I found the CNC Heads Sports/Saloon races at Oulton last weekend interesting. OK it's not Libre as such as there were no single seaters out but there was an interesting mix of Big engined monsters and nippy little lightweights.

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Simon Allaway, 5500cc Lotus Daytona Esprit V8 by Alansart, on Flickr

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Alistair Chambers, Caterham CSR - Ric Wood, Audi V8 by Alansart, on Flickr