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XK120 disc brakes


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#1 Sharman

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:02


I'm not entirely sure whether this belongs here or in Tech Queries but.... did XK120s ever compete IN PERIOD with discs, I know about 120Cs but did, for example Berwyn Baxter or Dick Protheroe, to name but two, ever have the mod in International races?

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#2 Graham Gauld

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 12:01

I'm not entirely sure whether this belongs here or in Tech Queries but.... did XK120s ever compete IN PERIOD with discs, I know about 120Cs but did, for example Berwyn Baxter or Dick Protheroe, to name but two, ever have the mod in International races?



I would imagine the most likely candidate would be the Bob Berry car.

#3 Allan Lupton

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 13:55

Paul Skilleter in his book, Jaguar Sports cars, goes into great detail about the XK120 in competition and brake trouble is a continuing thread. Only by 1960 does he tell us of disc brakes being used on MXJ 954 (Rob Beck) in the same sentence as he refers to Protheroe's GPN 635 which he implies hadn't discs. Protheroe's "final XK120. . . CUT 6 . . "with every possible modification"" presumably did but that is six years after production ceased so not "in period" in my book.
Bob Berry is quoted describing how they sorted out the brakes on his car, still drums at that time.

#4 David Birchall

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 15:20

I would imagine the most likely candidate would be the Bob Berry car.


I would agree with that the Bob Berry car (MWK120) was probably the first but then that had a magnesium body (LT1), D Type engine and Dunlp disc brakes. I used to work on the car in the seventies when it was based here in Vancouver. I recall at the first Portland Historic Races the driver of an Aston Martin DB4 being upset because he was beaten by this XK120 fitted with discs, then it was pointed out to him that MWK120 had acquired discs before his DB4 was even built...

#5 Allan Lupton

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 15:54

LT1 (and 2 and 3) did not have disc brakes as originally built any more than it had the D-type engine (it was built as a back-up car for the C-types in 1951) (Skilleter, op. cit.)

#6 David Birchall

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 18:15

To be pedantic LT 1,2 and 3 were never actually built at all by Jaguar-they were body shells only.

#7 terry mcgrath

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 00:23

I am 100% sure that LT2 and LT3 were in fact built up as complete race ready cars and when they weren't required for Lemans 1951 due to the C types being ready they were shipped to the USA and raced there and became known as Silverstone Jaguars although this title was refuted by Jaguar.
LT1 was only a body shell and was not completed as a complete car by jaguar and the shell was sold to bob berry an employee of Jaguar who fitted to his roadgoing steel bodied XK120 660917 MWK120. and this beacame known as the Cottingham car and later was the car that finished up in Canada.
terry

To be pedantic LT 1,2 and 3 were never actually built at all by Jaguar-they were body shells only.



#8 David Birchall

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 00:34

Thank you for clearing this up Terry-I was sure LT1 was sold as a shell.
Do you know when Berry fitted disc brakes to MWK120?


#9 terry mcgrath

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 00:42

Whilst you specifically asked did an XK120 "compete in Period" I can add that one of the first publicly reported occasions of an XK120 having disc brakes was 11 sept 1953 and by
19 November 1954 an XK120 was privately advertised as having disc brakes.
To specifically find a car that was raced with disc say pre 1960 you would need to go through all the adds in Autosport and Autocar and Motor to find other car advertised with disc and cross check against if the car had been raced.
May I ask your interest possibly to get approval to race a car with discs in a formula that calls for no modifications?
terry

I'm not entirely sure whether this belongs here or in Tech Queries but.... did XK120s ever compete IN PERIOD with discs, I know about 120Cs but did, for example Berwyn Baxter or Dick Protheroe, to name but two, ever have the mod in International races?



#10 Sharman

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 06:57

I would imagine the most likely candidate would be the Bob Berry car.

Thank you Graham, that was the name! I knew it was BB, Berwyn Baxter had a C type, though which one I can't recall
John

#11 Ted Walker

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 07:10

As far as the FIA are concerned I would say NO. I dont think there is any PERIOD PROOF at an INTERNATIONAL event.

#12 Sharman

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 14:07

From due diligence. I am given to understand that the first confirmed use was 1958/9 by Dick Protheroe for the Autosport Championship

#13 John Brundage

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 00:50

If I recall, there was a black XK120 at this past Monterey Historics running disk brakes. I was told that particular car ran them in period or as part of it's early history. Is anyone familiar with this car?

#14 terry mcgrath

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:30

Can I enquire as to the exact reason you wish to know?


I'm not entirely sure whether this belongs here or in Tech Queries but.... did XK120s ever compete IN PERIOD with discs, I know about 120Cs but did, for example Berwyn Baxter or Dick Protheroe, to name but two, ever have the mod in International races?



#15 Sharman

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 09:15

A while back I was looking for an XK raced by Anthony Hatton in the 70s. This car was built by John Harper and wore Registration GKY907. It was loaned to my very old friend Bill de Selincourt in 1973. In June this year Bill was 90 and his family asked me to trace as many of his old cars as possible, hence my search for Lotus 19 Chassis 964 etc. I found GKY 907 in France and its present owner was kind enough to make a special trip from Amiens to Brooklands on 18th of June where Bill, much to his surprise, was re-united with 7 of his old cars.
The owner of GKY907 is aiming for an entry at next years Le Mans Classic, I am asked to assist and consequently I am looking to see what modifications need to be undone and what can remain.
Permission to carry on Sir?

#16 D-Type

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 09:59

A loophole you might be able to exploit is the early fifties habit [in Britain] of classing large number of races as 'international' which were really glorified club races that should have been classed as 'national' or 'national open'. The idea was to boost the attendance by 'talking up' the importance of the race. This was sometimes extended to support races as well as the main race at a meeting.

#17 Red Socks

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 14:32

IMHO we don't need to be finding any loopholes to let XK 120's run disc brakes.They ran drums ,as did their contemporaries, let them stay that way.The FIA Historic commission long ago ruled that national open was not the same as International-mark you given the current incumbents' knowlege of the past anything could happen today.

#18 D-Type

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 16:32

You've missed my point. some very minor events in Britain in the early fifties were classed as "International". So, IF a disc-braked XK120, whether GKY907 or another one, ran in one of those races, then by the FIA rules they would have to accept GKY907 with discs and issue it with papers.

The immediate effect of this would be that Sharman's friend could get his Le Mans Classic entry without having to go to the expense of modifying his brakes back to drums.

The downside would be as you say: it would open a can of worms. Every XK120 owned by a "historic" racer who was more interested in results than in authenticity could fit discs if his wallet is fat enough. But is that any different than the proliferation of D-Type Jaguars and Mk1 saloons with 3.8 litre engines, Lolas and Lotus XIs with 1200cc Climax FWE engines, 1275 cc Sprites, A35s and Morris Minors, and oversize rims and lowered suspension on practically everything, etc?

Edited by D-Type, 29 January 2012 - 19:22.


#19 Sharman

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 16:44

Thank you, Duncan, for your suggestions as you can see I have looked fairly closely at who did what, with which and to whom. GKY907 was modified for racing in the early 70s. Interestingly it was delivered new to Sqn.Ldr. John Aldington, I don't suppose he had any connections to AFN...
Red Socks
If you look at my explanation to Terry, as to why I want to know, you will see that i say quite clearly that I am looking to see what can left and what needs to be undone.

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#20 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 18:42

As far as the FIA are concerned I would say NO. I dont think there is any PERIOD PROOF at an INTERNATIONAL event.


Aah well, if the FIA believes that no period International proof exists, that must be IT then... :lol:

DCN

#21 Red Socks

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 21:11

Aah well, if the FIA believes that no period International proof exists, that must be IT then... :lol:

DCN


And have done for the last forty years Doug. Go figure.

#22 David Birchall

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 21:27

I just found this description of the modification to the drum brakes that Bob Berry did to MWK120/LT1 in Skilleters "Jaguar Sports Cars" from 1975-so Berry did not fit the disc brakes according to this (and I have had this book since 1975 too :rolleyes: ) This description is of the car after he had fitted the LT1 body shell and was written by Berry for the Jaguar apprectices magazine:

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Edited by David Birchall, 27 September 2011 - 21:37.


#23 Allan Lupton

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:23

I just found this description of the modification to the drum brakes that Bob Berry did to MWK120/LT1 in Skilleters "Jaguar Sports Cars" from 1975-so Berry did not fit the disc brakes according to this (and I have had this book since 1975 too :rolleyes: ) This description is of the car after he had fitted the LT1 body shell and was written by Berry for the Jaguar apprectices magazine:

That's what I referred to in post no. 3, but I lack the patience to go through the rigmarole of posting images here! Thanks for doing so, David.

#24 fhc120

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Posted 29 January 2012 - 19:01

I remember seeing a photograph in the Jaguar Drivers Club magazine probably in the late sixties or early seventies of John Harper racing a 120 fhc with the registration number GKY 907,
Later the number appeared on Anthony Hutton's race prepared XK 120 roadster which I often used to see parked at the side of the road complete with aeroscreens etc in Kensington.

#25 Sharman

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 08:20

I remember seeing a photograph in the Jaguar Drivers Club magazine probably in the late sixties or early seventies of John Harper racing a 120 fhc with the registration number GKY 907,
Later the number appeared on Anthony Hutton's race prepared XK 120 roadster which I often used to see parked at the side of the road complete with aeroscreens etc in Kensington.

As I said earlier in the thread, the car now lives in Amiens, its owner has looked at the numbers involved in returning the car to an eligible state, and has abandoned the project.
If you are still a member of the Jaguar Drivers Club their magazine of October shows the celebration of Bill's birthday a Brooklands and has photos of GKY907

#26 Doug Nye

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 10:13

Is my memory adrift or didn't Peter Whitehead and/or Jumbo Goddard with an ex-Whitehead XK120 adopt disc brakes pretty early on? Or was that Jumbo having the conversion done not until we were into the 1960s? There's some fairly early disc-braked XK120 connection nagging at me, but I haven't got the time to verify it...

DCN

#27 Sharman

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 11:01

Is my memory adrift or didn't Peter Whitehead and/or Jumbo Goddard with an ex-Whitehead XK120 adopt disc brakes pretty early on? Or was that Jumbo having the conversion done not until we were into the 1960s? There's some fairly early disc-braked XK120 connection nagging at me, but I haven't got the time to verify it...

DCN

Doug
where do you suggest i recommence looking? I'd rather like to help Francis if I can in view of his kindness to us
John

#28 Jagjon

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Posted 31 January 2012 - 13:47

Doug
where do you suggest i recommence looking? I'd rather like to help Francis if I can in view of his kindness to us
John

There was an article on Jumbo Goddard in I think Motor Sport many years ago probably mid 1960's to early 70's era.
As far as my memory goes back xk120 people wanting to slow the car used the brakes from a Mk V11 saloon with heavier drums.
When I had the 1951 Le Man's car of Lawrie & Waller it had showed evidence of being fitted with discs but as it had been a club racer this was probably a 1960's modification.
I doubt any xk used discs in period depending if you mean period being the years they were available new up to 1956.
The cars mentioned here are cars raced later, cars of Howarth, D.Protheroe in period, but the heavily modified ones of Robin Beck, Eric Brown, raced cars mostly modified at a later period, maybe Eric Browns car being mostly D spec but these raced in the 1960's. Isn't that well out of period?
I think most of these cars still exist somewhere?
LT2 & 3 mentioned earlier, I think LT2 exists in Southern England.
Bob Berry's car if it had discs I don't know but it had disc wheels not wires when he raced it so you can't see the brakes.