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#1 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:25

In the past outdated cars trickled down through the club scene and eventually became "historic". Simon Arron recently wrote that there were unlikely to be historic racing with cars from more recent times as they were all one make formula. No doubt their complexity and being made for small drivers would also add to the difficulty.
So what has happened to the cars from recent (say post 1990) series? A few F3 and F3000 have made their way into speed events but there must be far more somewhere, what about the GP Masters cars, the A1GP or even Formula Zip? I think the Formula BMW still exists as "Intersteps" what ever that means. Is there still that series where the cars run in football colours?
What other "lost" series are there?

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#2 Paolo

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:08

In the past outdated cars trickled down through the club scene and eventually became "historic". Simon Arron recently wrote that there were unlikely to be historic racing with cars from more recent times as they were all one make formula. No doubt their complexity and being made for small drivers would also add to the difficulty.
So what has happened to the cars from recent (say post 1990) series? A few F3 and F3000 have made their way into speed events but there must be far more somewhere, what about the GP Masters cars, the A1GP or even Formula Zip? I think the Formula BMW still exists as "Intersteps" what ever that means. Is there still that series where the cars run in football colours?
What other "lost" series are there?


A1GP cars continue their life as AutoGP cars, slightly updated.



#3 LotusElise

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:21

The Superleague Formula still exists, although most of the teams ran as national teams instead of club teams this year.
I can see a series like EuroBOSS developing for these cars in years to come. There are quite a few of them knocking around.
In terms of the lower-level one-makes, the Monoposto Club seems to do a good job of finding them a home.

#4 Thundersport

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 11:24

Superleague formula is all but dead; there are a 2nd generation of A1 cars out there somewhere loosely based on a 2004 Ferrari which are unused. There also must be a huge amount of F3000/F3 cars collecting dust.........

#5 BRG

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 11:31

Where do most racing cars go? For instance, March must have churned out hundreds of F2, F3, FA etc cars during the 1970s. How many survive and what happened to all the rest? Likewise Lola, Martini, Van Diemen, Dallara and so on. Do they get broken up for spares and/or scrap? Lurk in garages/barns?

In the modern era, most are carbon fibre. How well does this age? Would an early CF tub retain its structural integrity?

#6 john aston

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 11:34

I had the misfortune of watching the Intersteps round at my local circuit.Tiny field. Dull cars. Yaawn. But-see Formula Libre thread-cars like Tuscans, Mantis etc do appear in locals sports saloons rounds- and v welcome they are too. But we do need a circuit home - rather than just hillclimbing -for single seaters from F3 up- love to see a Superleauge going up Cadwell's Mountain(and yesI know the circuit has - had ?- a 2litre limit on single seaters.

#7 arttidesco

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 11:49

Posted Image

I do not remember exactly when exactly the 2 generation Formula Vauxhall Lotus was introduced but this one driven by Lou Watts appeared at Mallory recently and is raced in Monoposto events.

Does Formula Vauxhall Lotus still exist ? What generation cars would they be now I wonder ?



#8 LotusElise

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 13:15

Does Formula Vauxhall Lotus still exist ? What generation cars would they be now I wonder ?


No, it went the way of the pear quite a while ago now. I think there are some Formula VL cars in Monoposto.

On a similar note, about ten years ago there was a rash of saloon series for 14-16 year olds which started appearing. I think T-Cars was the first. Most of these are now defunct. Does anyone know what happened to those cars? I would imagine the setup on them is interesting.

#9 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 13:32

The pear is alive and well and residing in my local Waitrose! :D

#10 arttidesco

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 14:00

The pear is alive and well and residing in my local Waitrose! :D


Some can still be found on real trees too :rotfl:

#11 Cirrus

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 17:28

Formula Vauxhall (Opel) Lotus was a very cleverly conceived formula which was very successful and ultimately led to the demise of FF2000 ):

The cars were brilliantly simple - an aluminium floor, two sturdy aluminium honeycomb "planks" as the side members, a cast front bulkhead and a dash and rear tubular roll structure which bolted to the top of the planks. The suspension was by rockers, the engine was the powerful and reliable Vauxhall/Opel twincam and the gearbox was the venerable Hewland Mk9.

As far as I'm aware they had a very good safety record and despite being a one-make series I always found them very enjoyable to watch - having, as they did, little downforce and "interesting" levels of power.

I'm sure an updated version of the car (still steering clear of carbon fibre) could form the basis of a budget club series today. A second hand FVauxhall Lotus would cost £7000-£8000 today and represents a lot of car for the money...

#12 alansart

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 17:47

As far as I'm aware they had a very good safety record and despite being a one-make series I always found them very enjoyable to watch - having, as they did, little downforce and "interesting" levels of power.


IIRC David Coulthard broke his leg in VL at Spa - but as you say a good series. It had some good drivers in it. Coulthard, Hakkinen etc.

Formula First was an interesting concept but the early cars were bloody dangerous as well as some of the drivers :eek:


#13 Rob G

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 17:55

The Champ Car series went under several years ago in a so-called "merger" with what was then the IRL. IIRC, the Panoz Champ Cars were auctioned off and purchased by a man who wanted to start a "green" racing series.

#14 Fangio36

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 18:05

Many Cart chassis were re-used in following years in the Indy 500, So you could watch 93 and 94 chassis in 1996. After that they went to sponsors and musea and even to private collectors. The BOSS series is a very nice series, for old chassis. Expensive ofcourse, engine wise and spares, but these owners see it as a hobby.

#15 RA Historian

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 18:09

The Champ Car series went under several years ago in a so-called "merger" with what was then the IRL. IIRC, the Panoz Champ Cars were auctioned off and purchased by a man who wanted to start a "green" racing series.

Some fellow named Brown bought them, along with the Formula Atlantic pro series. As is usual in so many of these cases, after a splash press release announcing series for both types of cars, absolutely nothing further was heard.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the recently announced "Unlimited Racing Series" (for spec cars, for crying out loud!) will meet with the same fate.

Tom

#16 E1pix

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 18:14

.... being made for small drivers would also add to the difficulty.

Great thread, and this is a very valid point I'd never considered.

It makes perfect sense that small-cockpit cars may not have a historic market for older blokes who've, Um, grown a bit with age.

Edited by E1pix, 29 September 2011 - 18:18.


#17 arttidesco

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 20:01

IIRC David Coulthard broke his leg in VL at Spa - but as you say a good series. It had some good drivers in it. Coulthard, Hakkinen etc.

Formula First was an interesting concept but the early cars were bloody dangerous as well as some of the drivers :eek:


The name that is stuck in my memory from FVL is Kurt Luby I think he won a race or was on pole for a race I saw at Donington. I seem to recall Justin Bell being in a Camel sponsored example too.

As for Formula First I scared my self in one at the Cadwell Park racing school sufficiently to opt for racing a 2CV :drunk:

#18 Thundersport

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 20:50

There are a couple of the attractive looking Panoz champ cars in BOSS; the problem with the Euroboss/Boss series as a historic Formula is they moved the cut off date to 2004 rather than 1998 which it had been. This allowed GP2 and WSR cars in rendering many F1 cars uncompetitive and the F3000s obsolete, some of the owners didn't want to enter there Benetton B194s for example to race against cars costing 50k with no pedigree or history.

Someone involved from it's inception told me over 70 formula firsts were built as I said earlier where are all these cars hiding!? A more mind boggling thought is that the "proper" F3000 ran from 1985-1995 so let's say being conservative 30 complete cars were built per season thats 330 cars!

#19 LRT24

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 22:05

To me, the last real "historic" cars would be the real F3000 cars that ran in Europe through 1995 and in Japan through 1998. I would guess at production numbers more like 50 a year (I recall Reynard making 30+ in the early '90s, and Lola had a lot of the Japanese market) at least until the last few years when it became common to reuse the cars. Quite a few of these cars have been seen in hillclimbing and BOSS series races but have been supplanted by more modern stuff now. I hope at some point these cars will find a home in historic racing, as they really represent some of the last open-formula cars ever built.

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#20 Amphicar

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 22:40

Where do most racing cars go? For instance, March must have churned out hundreds of F2, F3, FA etc cars during the 1970s. How many survive and what happened to all the rest? Likewise Lola, Martini, Van Diemen, Dallara and so on. Do they get broken up for spares and/or scrap? Lurk in garages/barns?

In the modern era, most are carbon fibre. How well does this age? Would an early CF tub retain its structural integrity?

An excellent question - anyone know the answer?

#21 Tim Murray

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 23:02

We've seen what can happen to old carbon fibre tubs that may not have been repaired properly:

http://www.alfabb.co...read.php?t=6155


#22 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 11:53

Someone involved from it's inception told me over 70 formula firsts were built as I said earlier where are all these cars hiding!?


I know of someone fairly local to me who bought two bare FFirst chassis (literally nothing but the frames) some years ago for very little on eBay, more or less on a whim. They reside in his garage at the moment.If anyone's interested PM me and I can pass on his contact details ...

This is a great thread. Can anyone offer a quick check-list of defunct one-make/spec/other single seater series ?
I confess to not being very clued up on which series are still alive (and in some cases which were even born). There seems to have been so many in the past 25 years!



#23 Mallory Dan

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:21

I thought FVL was the start of the end. A manufacturer inspired series, with one-spec cars and engines, and no doubt sufficient £££ for the drivers. Much better were the Webby conceived series (mainly), where the rules were set, and then anyone could make cars to meet the rules.

#24 Duc-Man

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 13:12

I thought FVL was the start of the end. A manufacturer inspired series, with one-spec cars and engines, and no doubt sufficient £££ for the drivers. Much better were the Webby conceived series (mainly), where the rules were set, and then anyone could make cars to meet the rules.


I think that is a bit harsh. Think of f.e. the Renault 8 Gordini cup in the 60ies or the R5 cup in the 70ies. They didn't kill the touring cars.
IMHO were the high safety standards that forced everybody to use carbon fibre (and therefor exploding costs) the start of the end.
BTW: what happend to all those FVL cars? They must have made hundreds of them. I haven't seen any of them since then.

#25 alansart

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 13:21

We've seen what can happen to old carbon fibre tubs that may not have been repaired properly:

http://www.alfabb.co...read.php?t=6155


If I remember correctly that Ferrari was sold as a show car and shouldn't have been used for racing.


#26 arttidesco

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 16:38

Formula Talbot gone
Formula First presume gone
FVL as noted above gone
Formula 3000 gone
Formula A1GP Gone
Formula Masters GP Gone
FF Kent Still seems to be alive as a class with in FF at Castle Combe
FF Zetec ditto
S2000 seen some running in a class at Castle Combe a couple of weeks ago.
FF2000 recently resurrected sponsored by our very own Mallory Dan at Oulton Park :up:
Formula Renault seems to be alive though not sure if it's the same as in the 1970's ?

That's all I can think of at the top of my head :blush:



#27 alansart

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 17:43

FF Kent Still seems to be alive as a class with in FF at Castle Combe


FF1600 (Kent) is alive and, although plodding along in this economic climate, still possibly has more championships for a single formula than any other single seater class.

The Castle Combe Championship seems well supported. The BRSCC North West Championship is still getting good grids - TNF'r Diz has worked his backside off over the years to help make that a success. Formula Ford within the HSCC looks OK and Classic FF1600 is still going. (My photos from last weekend Here).

Edited by alansart, 30 September 2011 - 17:44.


#28 Phil Rainford

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 17:44

In the past outdated cars trickled down through the club scene and eventually became "historic". Simon Arron recently wrote that there were unlikely to be historic racing with cars from more recent times as they were all one make formula. No doubt their complexity and being made for small drivers would also add to the difficulty.


I think the complexity issue is best illustrated in this example.....

Last year this turned up at Mallory one Wednesday

Posted Image

It was unable to run as a modern laptop proved not fit for purpose

It ran the following week only after an old laptop had been acquired that ran off DOS :)


PAR

#29 alansart

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 18:00

It was unable to run as a modern laptop proved not fit for purpose

It ran the following week only after an old laptop had been acquired that ran off DOS :)


PAR


I seem to remember that it took a bit of time to get the Sauber Sports Cars back on track again as they couldn't find computers and software that would make them run!




#30 Garsted

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 18:14

An excellent question - anyone know the answer?


Well, I hope, as that's what Boeing 777s are made from.

Steve

#31 Amphicar

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 18:47

Where do most racing cars go? For instance, March must have churned out hundreds of F2, F3, FA etc cars during the 1970s. How many survive and what happened to all the rest? Likewise Lola, Martini, Van Diemen, Dallara and so on. Do they get broken up for spares and/or scrap? Lurk in garages/barns?

In the modern era, most are carbon fibre. How well does this age? Would an early CF tub retain its structural integrity?

Found this report: http://me.eng.sunysb...wnloads/N29.pdf It appears that although the carbon fibre itself is unlikely to deteriorate with age, UV light is very bad for the epoxy matrix. So I guess the structural integrity of an old CF tub will likely depend on how and where it has been stored.

#32 Thundersport

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 19:15

Formula Forward is another one make single series now long defunct; it was Webbys answer to FVL using a Van Diemen Chassis rather than the FVL which was a Reynard. I have the original drawings in my loft if they would be of any genuine use to anyone!

#33 Pete Stowe

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 19:36

1981-2004 F3 cars can run in the MSV F3 Cup (following on from the BRSCC Club F3 series) - not exactly overflowing with entries though.


FF Kent Still seems to be alive as a class with in FF at Castle Combe
FF Zetec ditto

The Castle Combe Formula Ford championship is solely for Kent-engined cars, and always has been.

#34 Gatmo

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 21:02

One for real anoraks here.................

Does anyone remember Formula Arcobaleno? I think the BRSCC tried to get it off the ground but the car[s] were hideous things, one came testing at Mallory and wobbled around mostly getting in the way. The series never did get started.

#35 Kevan

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 21:23

BTW: what happend to all those FVL cars? They must have made hundreds of them. I haven't seen any of them since then.


Looking at the championhip tables, there seem to be a fair number active in Monoposto

http://www.monoposto...no2000-classic/

As you say, there must have been a lot built, as FVL or it's Opel-branded equivalent series ran in several European countries- it even reached South America (with Chevrolet branding) as I remember. I suspect there probably a fair number still being campaigned in club-level series around Europe where regulations allow.

Edited by Kevan, 30 September 2011 - 21:33.


#36 RA Historian

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 21:29

Well, I hope, as that's what Boeing 777s are made from.

Steve

787s?

#37 arttidesco

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 21:30

1981-2004 F3 cars can run in the MSV F3 Cup (following on from the BRSCC Club F3 series) - not exactly overflowing with entries though.


The Castle Combe Formula Ford championship is solely for Kent-engined cars, and always has been.


Hi Pete I know you are better qualified than me to speak on events at Castle Combe, but according to the recent August Cup programme the Castle Combe Racing Club FF 1600 Championship there were three classes Class A post '96, Class B post '90 pre '96 and Class C pre '90 for the purpose of clarity are you saying all three classes run with Kent engines ?

#38 arttidesco

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 21:39

One for real anoraks here.................

Does anyone remember Formula Arcobaleno? I think the BRSCC tried to get it off the ground but the car[s] were hideous things, one came testing at Mallory and wobbled around mostly getting in the way. The series never did get started.

Never heard of it before Gatmo seems to have had a following in Europe here are some specs and photos.

#39 alansart

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 21:44

Hi Pete I know you are better qualified than me to speak on events at Castle Combe, but according to the recent August Cup programme the Castle Combe Racing Club FF 1600 Championship there were three classes Class A post '96, Class B post '90 pre '96 and Class C pre '90 for the purpose of clarity are you saying all three classes run with Kent engines ?



Yes.

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#40 arttidesco

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 21:52

Yes.


Bugger I have a few blog entries to correct :blush:

#41 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 21:57

Shortest lived of all? - Tom Wheatcroft's Formula Classic which I think ran once (as a support to the BPR GT in maybe 96?)
The idea started off sounding sort of OK - a grid full of faux-Maserati-250F(ish) 6cyl front engined space frame cars on narrow tyres. Four wheel drift anyone?
But it eventually it appeared with a far less melodic 4cyl engine (Millington?) and very ugly sprint-car styling including horrid Bugatti-esque alloys ....and for some reason every car was red!
Martin Donnely raced one I think. The whole grid full came up for sale some years later. Must have cost Tom a packet. Ce la vie.

Oh...I forgot Webby's "Formula Turbo Ford" circa 1984. 1 test car (Reynard SF84 based?) appeared and that was that I think! No takers.

#42 Kevan

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 22:30

Shortest lived of all? - Tom Wheatcroft's Formula Classic which I think ran once (as a support to the BPR GT in maybe 96?)
The idea started off sounding sort of OK - a grid full of faux-Maserati-250F(ish) 6cyl front engined space frame cars on narrow tyres. Four wheel drift anyone?
But it eventually it appeared with a far less melodic 4cyl engine (Millington?) and very ugly sprint-car styling including horrid Bugatti-esque alloys ....and for some reason every car was red!
Martin Donnely raced one I think. The whole grid full came up for sale some years later. Must have cost Tom a packet. Ce la vie.

Oh...I forgot Webby's "Formula Turbo Ford" circa 1984. 1 test car (Reynard SF84 based?) appeared and that was that I think! No takers.


Yes, I'm fairly sure Formula Classic only raced once as well- I remember being there, but can't for the life of me remember what meeting it was at....As you say, it was either a BPR GT meeting, or one of the DTM visits to Donington around 1995/6

http://www.227sport.com/special.htm

Edited by Kevan, 30 September 2011 - 22:31.


#43 LotusElise

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 10:07

Formula BMW - rebranded and probably on its way out, despite being touted as The Future in about 2005
Formula Zip - lasted one season, no idea what happened to the cars
Formula Palmer Audi - dead as of 2010, despite lasting quite a long time
Formula Honda - became Formula Jedi, now seems to make up a large section of Monoposto grids

#44 retriever

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:40

Historic racing for future generations is going to be pretty boring to watch when all these one-make series cars begin hitting the track.

Whilst Dallara must be happy with the current situation, it really is a stifling direction that formula motorsport has taken.





#45 Carl R.S.

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 14:57

Formula Classic was originally planned as a pan-European series in 1995. In the end they only raced at two meetings at Donington Park, first was the BPR GT meeting on 8th May and then the BTCC meeting on 25th June. Each meeting had two races, they were won by Peter Hardman (3 times) and Martin Donnelly (once).

Some of the drivers that drove in these events were;
Martin Donnelly, Robin Donovan, Ian Flux, Peter Hardman, Dave Hutchinson, Paul Mather, Perry McCarthy, Mark Newman, Steve Parrish, Bill Shepherd, Patrick Trucco; most of whom I presume were recruited by the organisers to fill out the fields. I beleive only one driver (Patrick Trucco) had actually signed up to compete in the original series.

#46 BRG

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 17:21

But it eventually it appeared with a far less melodic 4cyl engine (Millington?)

It was Holbay. Had it been by Millington, it would have sung...

#47 brakedisc

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 19:21

I thought FVL was the start of the end. A manufacturer inspired series, with one-spec cars and engines, and no doubt sufficient £££ for the drivers. Much better were the Webby conceived series (mainly), where the rules were set, and then anyone could make cars to meet the rules.



I totally agree with you. The cars were difficult and to race one properly you had to be with a team that could put the effort in to find all the "cheats". This killed father and son teams who were out their depth with this type of car and it started full time teams in minor series and that is when costs went through the roof. To compound things at its peak most of the big teams in FVL sold their souls to the fag companies who were desperate for coverage and the money they brought helped promote the series rather than reduce costs. When the cigarette folk moved on the formula died.

Another thing you have to consider is how the MSA look at things. Certain formula that use "older" cars are under threat each year by the introduction of new safety rules. For 2012 a change to rule J5.2.1, could do a lot of damage. It now includes "suspension components" in the list of things that cannot be in the cockpit area and this could lose lots of S2000, FF2000, FF1600and Monoposto cars unless there are lots of specific exemptions. In the past a lot of these safety rules were for new cars after a certain cut off date but it appears there has been a change of heart at the MSA and these rules will be retrospective. It has also been announced that race cars are to be logbooked and this will mean that the age of certain cars can be closer defined and a check can be kept of their history. This will also have serious concequences to certain formula when it comes to repairs.



#48 Garsted

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 19:57

787s?

Oops ! 787s it is - I stand corrected

Steve

#49 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 18:55

Formula Classic was originally planned as a pan-European series in 1995. In the end they only raced at two meetings at Donington Park, first was the BPR GT meeting on 8th May and then the BTCC meeting on 25th June. Each meeting had two races, they were won by Peter Hardman (3 times) and Martin Donnelly (once).

Some of the drivers that drove in these events were;
Martin Donnelly, Robin Donovan, Ian Flux, Peter Hardman, Dave Hutchinson, Paul Mather, Perry McCarthy, Mark Newman, Steve Parrish, Bill Shepherd, Patrick Trucco; most of whom I presume were recruited by the organisers to fill out the fields. I beleive only one driver (Patrick Trucco) had actually signed up to compete in the original series.


All of the cars are still at Donington too....
A few from me:-
Escort Mexicos
Talbot Sunbeams
Renault 5s
Ford P100s
TVR Tuscans
Multisports
Pro-Sport 3000
Vauxhall Caterhams

#50 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 09:04

All of the cars are still at Donington too....
A few from me:-
...
TVR Tuscans
Multisports
...


Gregor in two lines you summed up the best and worst !

Tuscans, were wonderful - the cars looked great , sounded great (at least untill the flat-as-a-fart AJP engines came in) , had much more power than grip, no aero devices to cock-up the overtaking and the large grids included some classy drivers with serious racing backgrounds. In a word the series was EXCITING.

Multisport was the antithesis of all that .dull looking,dull sounding,no power, no excitment. In a word this series was DULL.