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Solitude and other research


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#1 Holger Merten

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 08:40

Yesterday I received the book “100 Jahre Solitude”, from Tobias Aichele, about the history of the Solitude track near Stuttgart/Germany. There are many portraits of the famous drivers, who raced on that track.

Also Lang got a half page. “Lang, who was the best driver in 1939 could feel as European Champion in 1939, although the title was never confirmed after the war.“

Okay, Aichele is not on the point, but reflected the detail. Just want to add it in this thread.

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#2 uechtel

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 09:52

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Yesterday I received the book “100 Jahre Solitude”, from Tobias Aichele


...hopefully with some fine post-war pictures, too?

#3 Holger Merten

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 11:00

Poor uechtel :cry:

Not so much, about 15 or 20 about your favourite era. And we know most of them. I will scan some interesting of them. Okay?

#4 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 17:11

Holger - could you please let us know more about the book? Publisher, date, years of racing covered. Is this an improved book on the little ADAC booklet and does it give dates and results of the events before the 1922, 23 and 24 hill climbs. Some sort of events took place between 1903 and 1906. Are they covered in the book? :)

#5 Holger Merten

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 18:31

Oh Hans, I forgot you, yes sure, this book wants to give as an overview about the history of the Solitude. - with many data about all races. The publisher is an agency… I think, Tobias Aichle, the author (Porsche specialist, former writer for auto, motor und sport), is also the owner of the agency and also responsible for the "100 Years Solitude Event". You can find more information at the official homepage. (German/English). Also about the book.

I think first off all Solitude was an motorbike race track. cars entered the track in 1923 for hillclimbs. There were no races in the 30s for sport- or GP-cars, so no Silverarrow raced there, okay Lang (He found the way into the right thread;) ) was there for a demonstration run in 1938.

Hans, if you have special interest, let me know. I could scan the hillclimb results and mail them to you.

BTW: I have a smaller Solitude brochure from the last 80s, which is much better than this book about a proce of 40 or 50 euro. And you have to pay for the mistakes too. So, if you are not a Solitude-fan, than don't buy this book. :down:

#6 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 19:14

Holger - I am not a Solitude fan, although I went there to watch at least three races from the Schatten area. I am interested only in what the book has to say about the 1903-1906 events, since I have the results of the twenties hill climbs and of the succeeding races. :)

Reading the web page, it refers to the course between 1903 and 1906 and as of 1907 the event did not get their permit renewed by the local governing authorities and therefore had to be cancelled.

Holger - I am still interested in any results data from 1903 to 1906, in case this information should be in the book.

#7 Holger Merten

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Posted 23 April 2003 - 23:13

Hans, saw your post, will take the book and keep you informed tomorrow, after a business meeting. So, it takes 12 hours until now.;)

#8 Holger Merten

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Posted 24 April 2003 - 06:38

NO, it took only 8 hours and some minutes.

Definetly, there were only motorcycle-races from 1903 -1906, between 1907 -1922 Solitude was "closed" by the governent. The first hillclimb for cars was held in 1922.

#9 Marco94

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Posted 25 April 2003 - 10:37

I have the book as well. Was able to scan through it briefly and it's a nice book, but not a reference work. :-( From what I saw it does not ad much info on the early events.

#10 fines

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Posted 29 April 2003 - 15:50

Originally posted by Marco94
I have the book as well. Was able to scan through it briefly and it's a nice book, but not a reference work. :-( From what I saw it does not ad much info on the early events.

Hey Marco, didn't you once intend to write a book about the Solitude races? :)

#11 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 06:02

Marco - from your prior Solitude investigations, can you verify with certainty, that the 1903-1906 hill climbs were only for motorcycles, two- or three-wheeled vehicles? Do you have more accurate dates than just the year for the 1903-1906 events? With your prior experience, which primary sources have you found to be most helpful and which Stuttgart library can you recommend for my visit this coming July? I would appreciate learning about your experience. :)

#12 Marco94

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 12:27

Fines,

I am never short of intentions. And seeing this new book didn't give me any reason to give up this particular intend. ;-) Anyway, I am working for DC in Stuttgart now. And since I still have to finish the literary part of my MSc work, time is in very short supply. Any Solitude investigations are fairly low on the priority list. :-(

Hans,

I only have the two little ADAC books to go by, so I assume those events to be motorcycle only.

So far I have been unable to get any dates for those events. That was one of the problems in finding reports on those events in newspapers.

As far as libraries are concerned, I have only been looking in the Wuertembergische Landesbibliothek for newspaper articles. Newspapers I looked at were Schwaebische Merkur, Stuttgarter Nachrichten, Stuttgarter Zeitung etc. I haven't looked at the publishers of those newspapers yet. It's really funny looking at the headline articles while scanning through those old newspapers. Gets you a new sense of history. :-)

When will you come to Stuttgart exactly?

#13 Holger Merten

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 13:21

Originally posted by Marco94
(...)

I only have the two little ADAC books to go by, so I assume those events to be motorcycle only.


Yes I have them too, and they as good as the new book. Okay, the pictures.....

#14 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 16:49

Originally posted by Marco94
...When will you come to Stuttgart exactly?

Only if I find sufficient time, will Stuttgart be my third destination in Europe, and if so, then possibly between August 4 and 14. On this year's Europe trip, I will stay primarily in München but have also planned for a brief Austrian library excursion. Stuttgart would be number three of places to go.

Marco, is it known, if the Wuertembergische Landesbibliothek has local newspapers back from 1903 to 1906 and if they are readily available on microfilm?

#15 Holger Merten

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 18:14

Hans,

on your way to Europe, you are very warm welcomend to Switzerland. The university library is not so bad here - if you have time to visit it. :)

#16 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 30 April 2003 - 19:37

Holger - can you please find out which AUTOMOBIL-REVUE years the University Library carries from the 1920's and 30's? :)

#17 Holger Merten

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 13:50

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Holger - can you please find out which AUTOMOBIL-REVUE years the University Library carries from the 1920's and 30's? :)


Hans, I was impressed, in the Online catalogue, I found out, that they have every issue since august 1912 :eek:. (Will check it).

And this treasure is only 300 m far away from my entry door. Now, I know what to do on Saturday.  ;)

#18 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 17:46

Between September 1921 and August 1922, the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE changed their format, because as of 8/1922 I have only the Illustrierte Automobil-Revue, which was published once a month, while the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE "Zeitung" was published as a newspaper every Tuesday and Friday with extra editions in between on Saturdays or Sundays on special occasions.

Holger - it is very important to differentiate between these two. While the Illustrierte Automobil-Revue carried articles in French and German, the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, AFAIK, was only in German, came in newspaper format, a bit larger in size and carried much more detail about the various races, hill climbs etc. During your forthcoming library visit, I would appreciate if you could write down exactly what and which issues they carry.

I will seriously consider an excursion trip to Basel but need to find out a few details first. I would like to know the days and hours the University Library is open and if Ausländer (i. e. Germans) or non-residents of Basel are allowed to use their reading room facilities. Do they allow copying the newspaper AUTOMOBIL-REVUE? Can I do it myself or do they have to do it? What is the cost per DIN A4 copy? In case copying is not allowed, can digital cameras be used and if so, is an electrical outlet nearby and how long an electrical extension cord is required from your working table to the outlet? Are there any charges when using a camera?

#19 Holger Merten

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 18:08

Hans, thanks for bringing up the small differencies, the catalogue says it's the Automobil-Revue, but I will ask to be safe. The Library is daiyly open from 8 - 7.00pm. It's open for evryone, cause we pay it by our taxes and everone is welcomend.

An example what you can get there: I copied all Auto Union annual reports from 1933 - 1938 in MY office. So I had some of the seldom originals at HOME for four weeks. The MB AR also, and so on...

I don't think, you will have any problems to get what you want. The people help, if they can. Three years ago, I wanted to get a seldom book which was printed in GDR in 1975, they did everything to find that book and keep me informed, when the book was in the library, by postcard. The service is great and concerns a great culture for client service.


Here is what is written in the catalogue (German about the AR) : Automobil Revue, Zeitschrift zur Förderung des Automobilwesens, Technische und sportliche Wochenschrift für Automobilismus und Aviatik.



I don't know, when that original register text for the catalogue was written. After 1912 and before 1940. That's all.

So I will find out about the AR and you'll get more infos under than click forward to A U T O by the navigation and than you'll find a new navigation line at the bottom, like in a lexikon, to find the catalogue register text for "Automobil Revue".

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#20 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 06 May 2003 - 21:03

Thank you, Holger.
When you go to the Library, please ask to see the 1928 AUTOMOBIL-REVUE and once you receive it, please check if it is the monthly issued version or the twice weekly newspaper. This is easy to find out by the dates. I am looking forward with great interest to hear about your findings.

#21 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 10:23

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Thank you, Holger.
When you go to the Library, please ask to see the 1928 AUTOMOBIL-REVUE and once you receive it, please check if it is the monthly issued version or the twice weekly newspaper. This is easy to find out by the dates. I am looking forward with great interest to hear about your findings.



Hans, back from library, 1/2 hour ago. It had four books in my hands withe two weekly 1928 AUTOMOBIL REVUE (TUE AND FRI). I still have now a new office there. They istalled a place for me to work there, with the whole 1933 -1940 issues on my desk. I'll start working there next saturday, checking for Auto Union articles. Just want to say that service and infrastructure are premium, and nobody ask for an identity card or something else. That's lovely safe switzerland, I always enjoy this kind of service public or client service. That would be impossible for example in Germany.


BTW: There are some gaps in the 1921 and 1955 issues. The rest is still complete and in best conditions. Enjoy too?

#22 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 10:25

OT: Sorry Brun, I'll show you my new desk overnext weekend! great that you'll come to switzerland - and don't forget your credit cards - that's the other face of switzerland. :lol:

#23 Brun

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 15:05

Originally posted by Holger Merten
OT: Sorry Brun, I'll show you my new desk overnext weekend! great that you'll come to switzerland - and don't forget your credit cards - that's the other face of switzerland. :lol:


I intend on being the real Dutchy, carrying a sack of potatoes and coffee in my own caravan :rotfl:

#24 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 15:47

Originally posted by Brun


I intend on being the real Dutchy, carrying a sack of potatoes and coffee in my own caravan :rotfl:


Okay, okay I forgot. But don't miss your passport. Switzerland is neutral and not member of the EU. Otherwise you just stay two hours at the airport, without a look into Switzerland. :rotfl:

And bring some french fries, you can't eat them here.

#25 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 17:07

Originally posted by Holger Merten
...had four books in my hands withe two weekly 1928 AUTOMOBIL REVUE (TUE AND FRI)....BTW: There are some gaps in the 1921 and 1955 issues. The rest is still complete and in best conditions. Enjoy too?

Holger - Thank you very much for your good news. I now feel inticed to visit also the Basel University library this summer, since I have to also go to Linz in Austria, to check out their library as well.

Were you able to find out if copying the 1920's AUTOMOBIL REVUE in newspaper format is possible and what the cost for a DIN-A4 copy is? And how about using a digital camera with electrical outlet nearby, any problems there.

#26 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 19:19

Hans, copying is not a problem, you can buy copycards, costs depends to the charge of the card, if you buy a 1000copies card, than it's less than 0,1 CHF per copy I think using an digital camera wouldn't be a problem, cause you are alone at your desk. And if you think about copying the AR, think about A3 copies. :cool:

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 20:51

Don, Hans, Holger, Speedy et al...

As a mere spectator in this issue, it really is enthralling. With Hans travelling half way round the world each year to soak up more and put in a few more clues, with his collaborators in Europe and the islands off the coast chasing up his and other leads...

I've been excited about this one from the beginning. I like seeing history overturned, as I will do one day if I create the script for the movie about Jean Francois Galaup... correcting wrongs long after they were done.

It's to me like the correction of the fallacy that Rafaello Carboni was untruthful about the events at Sovereign Hill, something like we saw in the toppling of the legend of Tripoli and the lottery winners... a very good reason for clicking open this thread every time somebody posts something!

Do I need to say 'Thanks, guys!'?

I just hope Hans has the right plug to get the power out of a socket for that camera of his...

#28 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:00

Holger - I assume that size A3 is double that of A4, but I don't know that for sure. Do I have to make all my own copies or do they make copies for me and is there an extra charge if they did it? Why would there be a problem with a digital camera? Because I am alone at the desk? I don't understand the true reason of your concern. :confused:

#29 Brun

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:20

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I just hope Hans has the right plug to get the power out of a socket for that camera of his...


If necessary, we're gonna get him an extension cord all the way from my apartment :rotfl:

#30 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:26

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Holger - I assume that size A3 is double that of A4, but I don't know that for sure. Do I have to make all my own copies or do they make copies for me and is there an extra charge if they did it? Why would there be a problem with a digital camera? Because I am alone at the desk? I don't understand the true reason of your concern. :confused:


1.) A3 is double of A4, right, that's the size of the pages of the AR, and I think it makes it easier to copy the whole page, than to puzzle out the copy in A4 of your favorite article.


2.) It's comfortable, that you can have the AR issues for yourself at your own desk, and than you can make your copies by yourself, sure, they will help, if neccessary. AND you don't have to give the issues back in the evening, when you leave the library - In my opinon a seldom case in libraries?

3.) Hans, sorry - it's my english, that sometimes makes problems. But I promise: I'll try harder. Okay, just wanted to explain that it was an idea of may having problems with the copyrights if you will make shots with the digital camera. But there is no problem in the Basel library, cause, look at point 2, you are alone with your material - nobody will control you. So if you think you'll prefer to make a digital shot (instead of a copy), there will be no problem. I know that problem from other libraries, where it isn't aloud to take a digital camera with you. Therefore I promoted this comfortable situation.

BTW: I never found such comfortable situations in libraries like in switzerland before. When I was working for Audi, we flew to Washington to find original AU sources, cause we couldn't believe to find them in Switzerland. But since I'm here, I found so much material, we were searching half around the globe. And it was only 500 km from Ingolstadt in Switzerland. :blush:

And, as I wrote, I'll start reading the AR on the next saturday morning in the library. They have a very good coffee and fine breakfast there and very good newspapers :lol: .

#31 David J Jones

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:34

Brun

A short while ago I obtained from the German Records Archivist at the National Archives in Washington a listing of all the NSKK Files held by the US from 1945 onwards. The originals were passed back to the German Archives and the US retained microfilm copies.

I have not had time to study this document in detail but you are welcome to it if you feel it may help you to target your search.

Did I read somewhere that Huhnlein had fallen out of favour and maybe terminated? What was the reference for this? The last mention I found of our revered Korpsfuhrer he was involved in the planning for Operation Barbarossa in 1941/2. Next reference he was dead.

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:38

You know, I think it's beginning to sound like this library should become the annual meeting place of the 'Guild of TNF Serious Researchers'... maybe in the summer.

The winter meeting would obviously be at Watkins Glen.

#33 Holger Merten

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Posted 08 May 2003 - 21:40

Originally posted by Ray Bell
You know, I think it's beginning to sound like this library should become the annual meeting place of the 'Guild of TNF Serious Researchers'... maybe in the summer.

The winter meeting would obviously be at Watkins Glen.


:rotfl:

Ray, but don't forget, they only have the Automobil Revue. Which is indeed a very good and neutral source. I'm glad to found it next to my door.;)

#34 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 02:24

Originally posted by Holger Merten
.... 2.) It's comfortable, that you can have the AR issues for yourself at your own desk, and than you can make your copies by yourself, sure, they will help, if neccessary. AND you don't have to give the issues back in the evening, when you leave the library - In my opinon a seldom case in libraries?...

Holger – thanks a lot for the information. I agree that it saves time if you don't have to see the librarian. I have rather good experiences with the Library of Das Deutsche Museum in München, where the staff has been extremely helpful to me over the years. But there are restrictions. You are not allowed to copy complete books. Half a book is all right. So that is what I did last year. This year I copy from these same books the rest of what I think is relevant to me.



Originally posted by Holger Merten
.... 3.) ...just wanted to explain that it was an idea of may having problems with the copyrights if you will make shots with the digital camera. But there is no problem in the Basel library, cause, look at point 2, you are alone with your material - nobody will control you. So if you think you'll prefer to make a digital shot (instead of a copy), there will be no problem. I know that problem from other libraries, where it isn't aloud to take a digital camera with you. Therefore I promoted this comfortable situation...

At the Deutsche Museum library in München, I used my digital camera to my heart's desire without any problems. Since you did not tell me about an electrical outlet, I assume there is one nearby for computer use or I can use my battery pack and if all fails, we can always run the extension cord from Brun's apartment. :lol:



Originally posted by Holger Merten
.... I never found such comfortable situations in libraries like in switzerland before. When I was working for Audi, we flew to Washington to find original AU sources, cause we couldn't believe to find them in Switzerland. But since I'm here, I found so much material, we were searching half around the globe...

There is tons of material in the Library of Das Deutsche Museum in München. Did you ever check there?



Originally posted by Holger Merten
.... And, as I wrote, I'll start reading the AR on the next saturday morning in the library. They have a very good coffee and fine breakfast there and very good newspapers :lol: .

Holger, coffee is an important part, of course. Usually I am very careful with time and how I spend it the library. I try to figure out a plan beforehand to reach the highest productivity for my time spent in the library. That excludes any lunch or coffee breaks and bathroom visits are just for absolute emergencies. For that reason, I don’t have too much tea for breakfast before I hit the library. Pure economics. During the day I work as hard possible and afterwards, after the library hours, when I sit down more relaxed I will resort the copies I made during the day, number them as needed, check dates, etc. to find any mistakes or omissions. At this time I also take the time to read in the copies what I have denied myself during the day.

#35 Brun

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 09:54

Originally posted by David J Jones
Brun

A short while ago I obtained from the German Records Archivist at the National Archives in Washington a listing of all the NSKK Files held by the US from 1945 onwards. The originals were passed back to the German Archives and the US retained microfilm copies.

I have not had time to study this document in detail but you are welcome to it if you feel it may help you to target your search.

Did I read somewhere that Huhnlein had fallen out of favour and maybe terminated? What was the reference for this? The last mention I found of our revered Korpsfuhrer he was involved in the planning for Operation Barbarossa in 1941/2. Next reference he was dead.


David,

Yes please, do send me the document. Is it in digital form? Then you could just send it to me by mail.

Yeah, there was something about Hühnlein, but I can't remember what it is. Maybe HP Müller took out a shotgun and killed him ;)

#36 Brun

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 09:56

BTW, Hans - when do you plan on visiting Europe? Wouldn't it be cool to organise a small get-together somewhere? I mean, Europe has become a lot smaller since the invention of low-cost airliners, it wouldn't be a hassle to set up a meeting.

#37 David J Jones

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 15:42

Brun

No - it is a hard copy. My scanner went down today but I am going to see if I can get another so I will send the details in the next couple of days or so.

#38 Holger Merten

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 16:50

Hans, I think copying is not the problem, but don't forget, you will find only the AR as relevant in the Library. There is not really any more relevant material there. Oh, I forgot, they have many Annual Reports from German companies, which sometimes is really interesting source material.

The Deutsches Museum Library was my favorite Library during my time at Audi, cause I had a special entry card. Yes a great Library to discover the history.

About your economics of time. Don't forget, switzerland is a small country. As well as the swiss libraries. So for all your coffees, emergencies, etc. you just need some steps to the next doors and you will find the right place. So to enter your place in the Library will take about 2 min. To get a coffee, takes 30 sec., to make a copy takes 30 sec. and so on. Compared with the Deutsches Museum it's nothing.

BTW: Feel invited to Basel and stay at my home. So it just takes you 10 min by feet in the morning to enter your desk in the library. :wave:

#39 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 17:23

Originally posted by Brun
BTW, Hans - when do you plan on visiting Europe? Wouldn't it be cool to organise a small get-together somewhere? I mean, Europe has become a lot smaller since the invention of low-cost airliners, it wouldn't be a hassle to set up a meeting.

I will be in München from July 28 till August 15. It takes me anbout 1 week to shake off the 12-hour jet lag. Sometime after August 3, I plan to work in the Basel library for about 1 week. So, Basel is much closer to you than München.

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#40 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 17:31

Originally posted by Holger Merten
...BTW: Feel invited to Basel and stay at my home. So it just takes you 10 min by feet in the morning to enter your desk in the library. :wave:

Holger – are you sure? I plan to stay for about one week or possibly more in Basel, sometime between August 4 and 13 to go through all those magazines.

#41 Holger Merten

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 18:08

Hans, holidays can stop me to invite you. But I have space enough, and some interesting discussions about your discoveries in the library plus a good bottle of french wine are a good perspective. And perhaps it helps you to keep your budget in normal balance. Cause a hotel in Basel is about CHF 170,-, if want to get normal comfort, plus breakfast! If'll you find a room? But it's your decission.

#42 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 21:30

Holger - I thankfully accept your generous offer of accommodation and chatting after library hours in the company of some French red. :D

#43 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 21:34

Originally posted by Holger Merten
.....But I have space enough, and some interesting discussions about your discoveries in the library plus a good bottle of french wine are a good perspective.....


Jetlag and French red?

Hans, you were speaking earlier of being productive on this adventure...

#44 Holger Merten

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 21:48

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Jetlag and French red?

Hans, you were speaking earlier of being productive on this adventure...


Ray, you know, you need to have some stimulating essences between your productive seesions. And it works. Believe it or not - also with a fine wine from Australia.;)

#45 Ray Bell

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Posted 09 May 2003 - 22:38

Yeah... yeah...

Anything to help the balance of trade. A Volkswagen for a case of wine, a Swiss watch for a kangaroo skin...

Don't keep him up late, he needs his sleep... getting on you know!

#46 Hans Etzrodt

Hans Etzrodt
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Posted 10 May 2003 - 00:36

Originally posted by Ray Bell
...Don't keep him up late, he needs his sleep... getting on you know!

Yeah... right! :yawn: :yawn: :yawn:

#47 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 06:00

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Yeah... yeah...

Anything to help the balance of trade. A Volkswagen for a case of wine, a Swiss watch for a kangaroo skin...

Don't keep him up late, he needs his sleep... getting on you know!


Ah, you know the exchange rates. :up:

#48 Brun

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 09:12

I wonder what HP Müller would say if he knew that people flew across the globe with Volkswagens in their backpacks. You know, just to sort out why he didn't win.

#49 Holger Merten

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Posted 10 May 2003 - 11:02

Brun, we could ask his wife.;)

BTW: I opened my TNF office in the Library of the Basel University. Have the AR issues from 1936 to 1949 on my desk andchecked 1940 today about AU. So in an interview of february between AU and the "Automobil Revue", there was no 1.5L car constructed at that time.

Many interesting things about Nuvolari, who made his pilot license at the end of the year, and some complete different answers, which driver would race for AU.

BTW: Hans you won't need Bruns extraordinary battery pack. Every place hase enough energy for your digital camera.