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Motorbike-powered race cars in Australia 1950 - 1980


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#201 HiRich

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:51

Is there a site that I can go to, or help from the forum members for detailing what the design differences are from the Mk1 Cooper 500 to the last 500 that they produced.

Dan, I've spent the thick end of a decade trying to work this out, by staring at around 2,000 photographs...

There are four basic body shapes:
- Prototypes (both subtly different)
- Early-period: 1948 Mk II - 1950 Mk IV + the 1950 Lightweight: Slab sides & upright shape
- Mid-period: 1951 Mk V - 1953 Mk VII: Pontoon sides, sloped nose & tail
- Late-period: 1954 Mk VIII - 1959 Mk XIII: Cigar tube body
but with a myriad of small developments through model types (and sometimes within).
Generally, there were LWB versions with an extension of 1-3" in the engine bay to take the JAP Twin. I believe early models (Mk II and perhaps Mk III) actually just moved the seat forward (still trying to find a source). BTW, I believe Terry Wright asked owners to measure their chassis to help resolve this once and for all - rumour has it that no two cars matched anyway!

The other major change was for the 1952 Mk VI. The Mk V was basically the same structure as the Mk IV, with channel-section ladder frame. The Mk VI had the same streamlined shape as the Mk V, but underneath was a twin-tube chassis. Of course, for the Mk VIII, the "bent-tube" chassis was introduced with the new bodyshape.

Contemporary reports often mention details like brake cylinders, engine position, suspension, etc., but there are often subtle, unmentioned changes. Some give you visual clues (with the right angle, and presuming the car wasn't upgraded by the factory or privately). However, bits still pass you by - I had missed the whole wheel-style issue, and I'm still looking for a good cockpit shot of a verified Mk X to confirm tacho position.

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#202 DanTra2858

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 21:36

Thanks for the reply on the model changes & yes I found the Cooper models on the 500 site 10 minutes after sending the post, how slack am I, HiRich thanks for your info, only if some one could post photos to verify changes.


#203 rbm

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:49

Thanks for the reply on the model changes & yes I found the Cooper models on the 500 site 10 minutes after sending the post, how slack am I, HiRich thanks for your info, only if some one could post photos to verify changes.


Dan, as Rich says the problem is the interchange-ability of parts on Cooper 500s.
The first 11 mk2 have the ‘inverted/pull’ rear dampers but by the Silverstone GP support race in October 1948 photos suggest that only 2 Coopers on the grid still have the original rear damper set up – but can we be sure that they were only fitted to the first 11 cars? Well the original works car had been modified which suggest that the 2nd batch would built this way and chassis 5/16/48 shows no evidence of ever having the stiffened brackets for fitting the dampers in the original way.

Again the mk2’s have straight flat bar type front up rights rather than the waisted neck ones of the mk3 onwards, however our mk2 has one of each again not a definite dating item.
Having inspected 4 of the 5 known mk2’s that are still 500s and having had correspondence with the owners of the other, we can say certain things are identical between the first batch cars and unique to the remaining first batch and are different on the 2nd batch.


However to me it seems unlikely that Charlie Copper when the production of the 500s got into full swing I would not have used up any leftover bit from last year’s model, where they could.

Edited by rbm, 16 May 2012 - 08:51.


#204 tsrwright

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:54

Dan, I've spent the thick end of a decade trying to work this out, by staring at around 2,000 photographs...

...

BTW, I believe Terry Wright asked owners to measure their chassis to help resolve this once and for all - rumour has it that no two cars matched anyway!


Yes I did but I didn't get a very good response. Along with my own measurements it was very difficult to see a pattern other than increasing length as the years went on. I concluded you couldn't rely on period media or catalogue figures!

I have found it useful that mk6 and 7s have the track rod (or whatever it is called) lower than on the mks5s. But at some point before the new 'curved tube' mk8 came out the rod drops to level with the bottom wishbone as in all the later cars. However, I don't k now when this was

I'm afraid this is all seems a bit 'anorak' but its sometimes the only thing to go on when trying to reconstruct the history.

#205 tsrwright

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:19

I'm still looking for a good cockpit shot of a verified Mk X to confirm tacho position.


See the David Roscoe film on DVD of the 1958 BHCC which has a good cockpit shot when David Boshier Jones comes up to the Prescott start-line

#206 rbm

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:24

Yes I did but I didn't get a very good response. Along with my own measurements it was very difficult to see a pattern other than increasing length as the years went on. I concluded you couldn't rely on period media or catalogue figures!


Terry,

did you stick with wheel base or did you end up with other chassis measurements? (I have recently dug out our mk6 bare chassis I could run a tape over)

Richard

#207 tsrwright

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:25

Terry,

did you stick with wheel base or did you end up with other chassis measurements? (I have recently dug out our mk6 bare chassis I could run a tape over)

Richard


Only wheelbase but you are right if you are thinking about the relevance of the engine bay. In later cars eg my Mk8 and adjacent numbered cars the 500s apparently had same length engine bay but the seat hoop was more upright on the twins obviously to clear the front cylinder. I am happy to pass on my spreadsheet if anyone with access to more cars than me wants to carry on the exercise.

#208 austmcreg

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 02:10

The Walkem was built by Jock Walkem in Launceston about 1954-55 with Manx Norton engine and later re-engined with Vincent twin but this photo at Penguin Hillclimb circa 1956 puzzles me a bit because it appears to show neither.

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The Manx Special (as it was called in it first 2 years) was built during 1954 and made its first appearances in November 1954. I can now confirm that this photo was taken at the very first Penguin hillclimb in March 1955 ( exact date TBC, but a few weeks after Longford), and shows the Manx Special in its original form with Norton engine, but without the tail panel. The body was originally polished aluminium (it certainly was at Longford several weeks earlier) but was later painted olive green. This looks like it was probably the green (very different to its polished appearance) so I think we have narrowed the repaint timing down to these few weeks between Longford and Penguin.

#209 austmcreg

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 02:19

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Graham White, White Vincent, Longford March 1955, Tannery Straight just before the causeway. J.Saward photo.

Rob Saward

Further information from Vincent historian Paul Wilkins suggests that the Vincent engine from this car was purchased by Lex Sternberg, increased in capacity with a Phil Irving kit and fitted to his Whiteford Irving which seems to have first appeared at an event in November 1958. The last recorded appearance for the White Vincent was in April 1958, so the timing works.

I have no information on the fate of the White - does anyone else?

Rob Saward

Edited by austmcreg, 14 July 2012 - 02:20.


#210 DanTra2858

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 21:40

[quote name='austmcreg' date='Oct 7 2011, 22:46' post='5322649']
A few Tasmanian motorcycle-engined cars. The Walkem was built by Jock Walkem in Launceston about 1954-55 with Manx Norton engine and later re-engined with Vincent twin but this photo at Penguin Hillclimb circa 1956 puzzles me a bit because it appears to show neither.

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Next one with Vincent, also at Penguin but a year or two later.

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Interesting to notice the change in the car not only the motor but the wider spaced rear trailing rods, removal of the rear body support tube also the front hoop above the drivers headrest, is it the angle of the photos that appears to make the openings above the front suspension bodywork different suggestiong a change in suspension ?.

The cars in the second picture also appears to be running a wider section tyre front & back, very interesting all the little changes to have a more compeditive car.

#211 DanTra2858

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:34

Finally worked out what car this is, it has taken some time to get the brain cells working but I am sure it is the Robertson Indian at Huntley Hill Climb in 1960 on a very wet day.

For the life of me I can not remember the drivers name but he was a School Teacher & a friend of Keith Winkler here in the Illawarra area.

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#212 DanTra2858

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 20:26

Finally worked out what car this is, it has taken some time to get the brain cells working but I am sure it is the Robertson Indian at Huntley Hill Climb in 1960 on a very wet day.

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It has been suggested that in fact this may not be the Robertson Indian, most visibly because it doesn’t have wire wheels & appears to has a Triumph 650 twin, is it the car built by Bob Joass but here driven by its next owner.

Can anyone assist in clarifing this car.

#213 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 00:37

Correction aside, I'm now wondering about the 'Robertson Indian'...

A wonderful name for a car, presumably Indian-powered and built in Robertson?

Even tested up Macquarie Pass?

#214 DanTra2858

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 07:28

Correction aside, I'm now wondering about the 'Robertson Indian'...

A wonderful name for a car, presumably Indian-powered and built in Robertson?

Even tested up Macquarie Pass?


Well Ray you are correct as allways except it was built by a Mr Robertson in Victoria some time in the mid to late 1950's and yes it may have been towed up Macquarie Pass but that is as close as it gets. :lol:

#215 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:59

What a shame...

However, it does show the range of adaptability involved in these 'motorbike-powered race cars in Australia'!

#216 austmcreg

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:11

After about six months I think it is time to bump this thread to the top again.

During the last week, in between bouts of Christmas cheer and catching up on sleep, I have been doing some more work on the five aircooled Coopers that were owned in Tasmania at various times. The first of these was Mk V/L5/51, which went from John Crouch in Sydney to Alan Stephenson in Tasmania in 1953, then to Lyn Archer briefly in 1955, then (I strongly suspect, but cannot prove) an unknown Tasmanian owner, then to Doug Green in West Australia.

Utilising the results published on Terry Walker’s excellent website (thanks Terry), the first appearance I can see for this car in WA was Doug Green at Caversham on 16 September 1956. This is 18 months after the last record I have for the car in Tasmania. Do any of our WA TNF friends have access to any period club journals or other sources that might record when it arrived in WA? Would any of Doug Green’s relatives have further information? The ultimate would be a receipt stating the date and the seller’s name! If I can pin down its WA arrival date, that will give me clues as to where I should be looking in Tasmania for its sale there. Unfortunately (for copyright reasons) the online newspapers for Tasmania and WA stop at end of 1954, so the option of visting a library and doing it the hard way (no search facility!) is impractical.

As well as the Green / Ayres / Rowe Cooper, Terry Walker’s results for the 22 November 1963 Caversham Christmas Cup meeting list two Cooper Mk Vs in the same race; one is Jack Rowe in the subject car but there is also H.Davies listed in a similar car. Can anyone confirm that H.Davies did indeed own a Cooper which was not the subject car? If so what was its background?

By the way, some sources list the WA owners for the subject car as Green / Rowe /Ayres, but that sequence appears not to be correct. From Terry’s results listings, the race history appears to be:
Doug Green 1956-1960
Jack Ayres 1961-1962
Jack Rowe 1962-1966.
The trail runs cold with Jack Rowe’s last listing in mid 1966, after which he appears with an Elfin. There are no further mentions of a Cooper in Terry's results other than the late model Climax-engined cars. However, we know from Gordon Graham’s post #178 in this thread that the subject Cooper re-appeared once at Caversham. Gordon says 1966 but I wonder if the entry at Caversham 24 September 1967 for Dick Turpin in a Triumph Special could be the one? John Blanden says in his book that the car was fitted with a Ford engine and VW gearbox by Ayres, but that does not seem to fit this timeline - perhaps another owner before Hilton McGee restored the car in the 1970s?

Any assiatnce from our WA friends to shed light on these mysteries is appreciated by all of us that are delving into Australia’s Cooper history.

I am taking the liberty of re-posting the two photos of the subject car that have already appeared on this thread, Jack Ayres at Albany 1962 (first posted by Terry Walker) and the dual Triumph engined version a few years later (first posted by Gordon Graham).
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#217 Gordon Graham

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 22:38

Rob, I could very easily be wrong about the date of that twin Triumph shot, various batches of pictures got jumbled together over many years. Does the Dick Turpin entry in September 67 list a capacity?

#218 ken devine

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 23:39

The Dick Turpen car was a 500cc TQ adapted for road racing, Dick still owns the car and is a regular competitor in local historic racing.
The H.Davies car i think came from South Africa and only entered once at Caversham when it blew up at the start, this may have been the car Don Hall restored,i do have a photo which i will post when i find it.I think Doug Green ran his Cooper in late 1955.

#219 ken devine

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 00:06

This is the car when it appeared at Caversham in 1963. I am going on that year because the Aston Martin is in the shot.






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#220 ken devine

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 00:09

This shot was taken at the first York Flying 50 in 1981.




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#221 275 GTB-4

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 03:30

It has been suggested that in fact this may not be the Robertson Indian, most visibly because it doesn’t have wire wheels & appears to has a Triumph 650 twin, is it the car built by Bob Joass but here driven by its next owner.

Can anyone assist in clarifing this car.


Robertson or Robinson??? the car is now operated by Barry Parsons in NSW.

#222 austmcreg

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 05:12

Robertson or Robinson??? the car is now operated by Barry Parsons in NSW.

Australian Motor Sports , October 1958
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#223 Dick Willis

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 06:31

Here's a car that hasn't been seen in Australia for nearly 13 years. The Trenberth Vincent, well known in SA, now races in the UK with its ex Aussie owner. It now uses both single and twin Vincent engines, with the former it has made several appearances at Goodwood in the Earl of March Trophy races.

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#224 275 GTB-4

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 09:12

Australian Motor Sports , October 1958

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Thanks Austy.....noted! :up:

#225 austmcreg

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:37

The Dick Turpen car was a 500cc TQ adapted for road racing, Dick still owns the car and is a regular competitor in local historic racing.
The H.Davies car i think came from South Africa and only entered once at Caversham when it blew up at the start, this may have been the car Don Hall restored,i do have a photo which i will post when i find it.I think Doug Green ran his Cooper in late 1955.

Thanks very much, Ken. It seems likely that the Don Hall Cooper was the Davies car.

Any assistance with a confirmed appearance date for Doug Green in 1955 would be much appreciated, along with any details of the owners of that car between Jack Rowe and Hilton McGee (1966 onward).

Rob Saward

#226 tsrwright

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:38

Thanks very much, Ken. It seems likely that the Don Hall Cooper was the Davies car.

Rob Saward


Don't doubt the Africa origins but what links it to Howard Davies in particular?

#227 tsrwright

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 01:57

...

The first 11 mk2 have the ‘inverted/pull’ rear dampers but by the Silverstone GP support race in October 1948 photos suggest that only 2 Coopers on the grid still have the original rear damper set up – but can we be sure that they were only fitted to the first 11 cars? Well the original works car had been modified which suggest that the 2nd batch would built this way and chassis 5/16/48 shows no evidence of ever having the stiffened brackets for fitting the dampers in the original way.

Again the mk2’s have straight flat bar type front up rights rather than the waisted neck ones of the mk3 onwards, however our mk2 has one of each again not a definite dating item.
Having inspected 4 of the 5 known mk2’s that are still 500s and having had correspondence with the owners of the other, we can say certain things are identical between the first batch cars and unique to the remaining first batch and are different on the 2nd batch.
...


I suggest the 1948 date on the plate may mean it was built in late 1948 but does that make it a "Mk2" or does it just mean that Coopers hadn't yet started to
identify cars according to the "year-model" starting last part of the previous calendar year as they did later and is/was normal in motor vehicle manufacture.

I suspect many of the early cars were modified rear damper-wise as Moss did quite early, the first I think (from memory without checking) to do so.

Then there is the matter of the single v twin filler caps on early 1949 cars ... :)

I think 'continuous improvement' was the name of the game and some were more at it than others.

Edited by tsrwright, 05 January 2013 - 02:00.


#228 rbm

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:43

I suggest the 1948 date on the plate may mean it was built in late 1948 but does that make it a "Mk2" or does it just mean that Coopers hadn't yet started to
identify cars according to the "year-model" starting last part of the previous calendar year as they did later and is/was normal in motor vehicle manufacture.

I suspect many of the early cars were modified rear damper-wise as Moss did quite early, the first I think (from memory without checking) to do so.

Then there is the matter of the single v twin filler caps on early 1949 cars ... :)

I think 'continuous improvement' was the name of the game and some were more at it than others.


Both the Cooper T numbering and the mk numbering are both post period.
Originally it was just the Racing Type Cooper in Cooper's own adverts, but the defining of the 'batches' in 1948 was from a press article with the 2nd batch being described as for export (to get around the steel rationing?). My understanding is that all '48 cars are mk2's as defined by John Cooper later on.

as for the dampers the first batch (first 11 cars - JC said 12 but the evidence does not support unless you include the modified prototype) all had the pull fitting (5/11/48 still has the bottom brackets) none of the surviving later '48 cars show any evidence of these brackets.

agree on the developement and as you say "as for the twin fillers"!



#229 tsrwright

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 00:53

6091130[/url]']
Both the Cooper T numbering and the mk numbering are both post period.
Originally it was just the Racing Type Cooper in Cooper's own adverts, but the defining of the 'batches' in 1948 was from a press article with the 2nd batch being described as for export (to get around the steel rationing?). My understanding is that all '48 cars are mk2's as defined by John Cooper later on.

as for the dampers the first batch (first 11 cars - JC said 12 but the evidence does not support unless you include the modified prototype) all had the pull fitting (5/11/48 still has the bottom brackets) none of the surviving later '48 cars show any evidence of these brackets.
agree on the developement and as you say "as for the twin fillers"!


As you will know Coopers used a 'mark' designation from Mk5 onwards (1951) and that will include the cars made in late 1950 so I do feel it is rational to call late 1948 cars Mk3, that is what is thought to be the second dozen or so.
I am told that in Australia (to get a little back on topic) the early cars were 1949 made and plated but were locally always referred to as Mk4s. As 1949 and 1950 cars were all numbered in one series with 1950 cars starting at #33 it doesn' really matter so I tend to refer to them as Mk3/4. Same with Mk6/7 which in most respects were identical although there was a new number series for 1953.
Maybe RS can add more?

PS The 1100 JAP twin used by Coopers was called the 'Mark 1' by JAPs but these days everyone calls it the Mark 2 and nobody can explain why. JAPs never made a Mark 2.

Edited by tsrwright, 11 January 2013 - 01:06.


#230 austmcreg

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:44

As you will know Coopers used a 'mark' designation from Mk5 onwards (1951) and that will include the cars made in late 1950 so I do feel it is rational to call late 1948 cars Mk3, that is what is thought to be the second dozen or so.
I am told that in Australia (to get a little back on topic) the early cars were 1949 made and plated but were locally always referred to as Mk4s. As 1949 and 1950 cars were all numbered in one series with 1950 cars starting at #33 it doesn' really matter so I tend to refer to them as Mk3/4. Same with Mk6/7 which in most respects were identical although there was a new number series for 1953.
Maybe RS can add more?


This thing about whether the 1949 cars should be called Mk III or Mark IV has been troubling me for a while, and several written pieces I have underway have been changed a few times as I debate the issue with myself!

The first four Coopers to come to Australia had 49 chassis numbers from 26 upwards, which I guess meant they were made in the second half of 1949. I dont know whether they should now be called Mk III or MK IV, but (from memory without doing a thorough search) in period Australian print (I'm talking 1950-1951 Australian Motor Sports magazine, mostly) I do not recall any reference to any mark number. The first period references to a mark number came a year or so later when the Mk Vs were current. The first Mk Vs did not reach Australia until early 1952; even John Crouch's brochure for the Mk V referred to them as '1952 models' and not by mark number. After this, there were I think a few references in the magazines to Mark IV (referring to the pre Mark V cars), but I am sure these were in the context of 'earlier than Mark V' rather than through any knowledge of Cooper model numbers.

By the mid and late 1950s, Australian references to Mark IVs did occur, and there was no differentiation between the 1949 and 1950 plated cars, because frankly, no-one knew the chassis numbers and no-one cared! One of the cars I am particularly interested in was a 1949-plated chassis, but in Tasmania in 1958 to the mid 1960s when this car raced there, most people involved recognised or knew about a Cooper Mk IV, but no-one had ever seen or heard of a Mark III. I am sure that 'Cooper Mk IV ' was a generic term for 'Cooper older than a Mk V'! Taking this even further, there is plenty of evidence that to some people, a Cooper was a 'small racing car with motorcycle engine in the back', which is why there were cars known as Coopers, which were local specials with nil connection to Cooper.

I love a good debate about, and research on racing car chassis numbers as much as the next person, but I suspect this is a modern historian's obsession, and we get a bit too anorak about it. In the Australian context there really are only MkIV and MkV Coopers (leaving the later cars out of this). What is on the chassis plate of the earlier cars is relatively unimportant.

Rob Saward

Edited by austmcreg, 11 January 2013 - 13:08.


#231 tsrwright

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:32

I love a good debate about, and research on racing car chassis numbers as much as the next person, but I suspect this is a modern historian's obsession, and we get a bit too anorak about it. In the Australian context there really are only MkIV and MkV Coopers (leaving the later cars out of this). What is on the chassis plate of the earlier cars is relatively unimportant.

Rob Saward


I don't really agree with this last part, Rob, (that is if you mean what you appear to say :)) because using wrong or imprecise terms leads to misunderstanding. While I agree we shouldn't be obsessed about it there is no harm getting something right and where that is possible it usually needs an exchange of evidence and views particularly when any facts are obscured by the passage of time or have been handed down with the scriptures.

What is on a chassis plates has some importance when it is available and seems to be reliable; for example the number of the Australian John Nind's car 10-48-50 suggests (from some vague information) that it may be been used in Europe first so it may not have been new when it arrived in New Zealand in 1951. It also may tell us something about how Coopers worked when we find out there is a car with a plate and a matching Cooper sales invoice existing - for 5-48-50 - a duplication of the serial number '48', which was not normal practice but may well have been used on export cars.

Of course, one needs to be wary of taking any chassis plate as genuine.

#232 tsrwright

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 05:26

See also the adjacent thread on Russ Catlin, A(American)AA and (briefly) RAC records which reminds me to wonder where the A(Australian)AA and CAMS archives are held.

Are they secure?

Are they accessible?

Edited by tsrwright, 13 January 2013 - 05:29.


#233 Terry Walker

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 13:10

CAMS archives? Are you kidding?

Years ago I got in contact seeking results of National and State CAMS authorised Championships. No one replied.



#234 tsrwright

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 06:16

CAMS archives? Are you kidding?

Years ago I got in contact seeking results of National and State CAMS authorised Championships. No one replied.


I rang CAMS today and spoke to the new Media Manager and the new PA to the new CEO; the position is that there is material there but the scope is uncertain and the question of what is accessible to whom has to be resolved. At the same time the topic is of interest to the new management team because 2013 is CAMS 60th anniversary.

So encouragement from all that are interested to have CAMS apply some resources to professional (or even amateur) management of its archives might be a good thing. I am sure there are people who could do some useful work as I gladly would but one would really need to be in Melbourne. Perhaps its a task the Historic Commission might take on?

Just remembered, 2013 is also the 60th anniversary of the Walton Special. :clap:

#235 275 GTB-4

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:07

Thats good Detective work TSR....and a good suggestion, there is a large amateur workforce available if CAMS want to be a little proactive.

Strong oversight would be needed to prevent people trying to re-write history or approaching tasks in an illogical, unstructured fashion :up:

#236 tsrwright

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:54

Thats good Detective work TSR....and a good suggestion, there is a large amateur workforce available if CAMS want to be a little proactive.

Strong oversight would be needed to prevent people trying to re-write history or approaching tasks in an illogical, unstructured fashion :up:


Agree with the last para and I don't for one minute think it is simple. Anyway, CAMS was nice enough to email that my remarks had been referred to the senior management team; I would suggest the best route forward might be via the Historic Commission (are you listening guys?)

#237 275 GTB-4

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:02

Anyway, CAMS was nice enough to email that my remarks had been referred to the senior management team; I would suggest the best route forward might be via the Historic Commission (are you listening guys?)


I worked for a Govt Dept for many years...the worst thing you could hear is either..."we have pushed your suggestion upstairs" or more usually "a file has been raised on your suggestion" which usually killed the issue stone-dead

Cynical? hmmm maybe, (and no offence) but I would wait until you actually get a decent response with a promise of "action" before getting too excited :wave: :rolleyes:

#238 rbm

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 16:47

In the Australian context there really are only MkIV and MkV Coopers (leaving the later cars out of this). What is on the chassis plate of the earlier cars is relatively unimportant.

Rob Saward


an ex Austrailian 1948 (5/18/48) Cooper is currently being re-built in the UK, I know none of its Austrailian history (so I leave this open to others more in the know).

#239 tsrwright

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:42

an ex Austrailian 1948 (5/18/48) Cooper is currently being re-built in the UK, I know none of its Austrailian history (so I leave this open to others more in the know).


New Zealand, actually, and I won't go on about Australia not being New Zealand :)

HiRich and I have been discussing this car at length but only in relation to its UK origins. In the course of this I think we have agreed that the second Cooper prototype, perversely known as T3, did not go to New Zealand in 1950 (or Australia) as has sometimes been written.

Edited by tsrwright, 27 January 2013 - 01:43.


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#240 tsrwright

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:49

I worked for a Govt Dept for many years...the worst thing you could hear is either..."we have pushed your suggestion upstairs" or more usually "a file has been raised on your suggestion" which usually killed the issue stone-dead

Cynical? hmmm maybe, (and no offence) but I would wait until you actually get a decent response with a promise of "action" before getting too excited :wave: :rolleyes:


No offence taken but it's better than the usual silence or the virtual waste paper bin. Nothing CAMS does could ever get me excited but let's be clear: two senior people there returned my calls, showed apparent interest in a somewhat esoteric issue and then emailed me. That's different to what had previously been reported.

Edited by tsrwright, 27 January 2013 - 01:50.


#241 The Chasm

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:13

This photographed turned up in the personal photo album from the late Connie Jordan after the recent passing of her husband.

Thanks to David McKinney, it looks to be the first (or close to it), outing of the Warburton. Ray Bell seems to think it might have been taken at Whites Hill Hillclimb. Sadly the album photos carried no dates or descriptions.

Connie became involved in Motorsport in 1948, and purchased her MG TA in 1944. She was an Aircraft Engineer & Test Pilot for Qantas. The fact she took a photo of the Warburton is a sign she appreciated the car in some way. One could assume the photo was taken in 1948 - perhaps ?.

All the other photos in the recovered album appear to have been taken in 1948 or 1949. This is the only photo of an air-cooled car in the album.

Posted Image

Does anyone have any further information on the Warburton that might give a clue or a link to Connie or Qantas.

Edited by The Chasm, 27 May 2013 - 01:15.


#242 cooper997

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 04:20

Tony,

It may not be relevant, but in AMR #3 there's a feature on the Taylor 500, owned by Les Taylor, who also owned a Cooper.

The text states how it started life as the Lowe-Lane 500 special in Melbourne. In fact the first 500 built in Oz. It then migrated to Qld and had several owners. One of them possibly was Clem Warburton, so hence it was named after him during his ownership.

If you send me a pm with your email I can scan it. Then if you decide to add it to this for others to view for historical purposes, that's fine with me.

I also wonder whether Bill Pitt (of Jaguar racing fame) might know anything about it.

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 27 May 2013 - 04:22.


#243 The Chasm

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:44

In another thread David McKinney provided this link where there is another photo of the "Warburton" under "Marques".

http://www.500race.org/

But maybe now it should be moved to "Taylor" ?.

The photo on the 500 website shows a much larger fuel tank behind the drivers helmet (for Leyburn ?) - the Connie Jordan photo has a much smaller tank for hillclimbs ?.

Edited by The Chasm, 27 May 2013 - 09:47.


#244 The Chasm

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 00:45

Some more details on the car that seems to have been the basis of the Warburton:-

Posted Image

This was from AMR #3 - 1953 (Thanks cooper997 !).

Edited by The Chasm, 29 May 2013 - 00:48.


#245 austmcreg

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:02

Tony,

It may not be relevant, but in AMR #3 there's a feature on the Taylor 500, owned by Les Taylor, who also owned a Cooper.

The text states how it started life as the Lowe-Lane 500 special in Melbourne. In fact the first 500 built in Oz. It then migrated to Qld and had several owners. One of them possibly was Clem Warburton, so hence it was named after him during his ownership.

If you send me a pm with your email I can scan it. Then if you decide to add it to this for others to view for historical purposes, that's fine with me.

I also wonder whether Bill Pitt (of Jaguar racing fame) might know anything about it.

Stephen


Yes, I think he may, because something tells me I have seen Bill Pitt listed as one of the owners of this car, before he became involved with the Ex Les Taylor Cooper Mk IV as part of the LPS partnership (Bill Pitt was the 'P'). If so, it seems Les Taylor may have been the common link, and perhaps Bill may have some knowledge of that interesting character, too.

Tony, Thankyou for posting all these wonderfiul photos, in this and other threads, we are learning quite a bit!

Rob Saward

#246 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 01:03

Originally posted by The Chasm
Posted Image

Does anyone have any further information on the Warburton that might give a clue or a link to Connie or Qantas.


Barrie Watt has had a look at this now...

"That's Stan Eastwood's car, he had it out at Leyburn a couple of times."

He believes the photo was taken at one of the Toowoomba area hillclimbs, either Echo Valley or Murphy's Creek. "You can see the mist hanging around," he said.

#247 DanTra2858

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:08

Now where does this Cooper fit into the Australian Cooper listing, what is it's known History.

Posted Image

Add copied from "Sports Car World February 1962"

#248 Dick Willis

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 21:09

The Cooper BMW is owned by Greg Snape, it has been in the Snape family for some 30 years and was raced extensively by Greg's father Graeme until he bought the Zephyr Special. The Cooper's outings are rare these days.

#249 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 07:22

Getting close to 40 years now, Dick...

I'm sure he had it before the first All-Historic Amaroo.

#250 GMACKIE

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 07:46

Phil Boot had the 501-750cc record at Silverdvale in 1960.......41.2

Seem to recall Colin Bond driving the Cooper BMW. Erol, didn't you drive it, too?

Was it once owned by Jack Forrest? Did he do a 'record run' at Lake Eyre?