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The RB8 - The 2012 Red Bull Racing car (merged)


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#3151 korzeniow

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 20:58

More like they have Renault. Too much credit to Newey lately...


Yeap, I remember reports saying that those engine maps were Renault's idea

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#3152 lbennie

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 03:01

I don't agree. Look at the last two Newey's quoted sentences.



Most teams had to do this. So we don't know how much it actually hurt them, they could have lost less compared to others.



#3153 PassWind

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:14

"The second tunnel is fully ducted and blow into the hole for the engine’s starter motor, which is situated at the front of the diffuser. The benefit is that the high velocity air from the sidepod undercuts is channeled to where it is most effective."

If that's real then, well, get lost Newey you cheating swine. As bad as the 2009 Brawn double cheatffuser. Can these people not get their head around simple rule concepts like 'stop blowing the bloody diffuser' and 'no holes in this area', relying on legalese solutions to bypass the intended wording of the rules instead of engineering solutions to make the fastest car within those rules. The starter motor hole is allowed for the starter motor. ducting air to it is CHEATING.

Its pathetic and low.


Just exactly do you want them to do with the diffuser then? Grow tomatoes? Bake a Cake?

#3154 baddog

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:27

Just exactly do you want them to do with the diffuser then? Grow tomatoes? Bake a Cake?

The diffuser conditions airflow from UNDER the car. Blowing exhaust fumes into it is a completely and totally different use for it, it is engine powered downforce generation, literally. It is not really any different from an exhaust powered fan sucking the car down.

#3155 PassWind

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 00:10

The diffuser conditions airflow from UNDER the car. Blowing exhaust fumes into it is a completely and totally different use for it, it is engine powered downforce generation, literally. It is not really any different from an exhaust powered fan sucking the car down.


True but a diffuser does not only condition the air for drag reduction, and hasn't for some time. It can be used as part of the process in gaining a higher differential in air pressure between the top of the car and the bottom, the diffuser is designed within parameters set by the FIA, how you get the diffuser to operate at maximum efficiency is up to the teams. Don't know why people get upset at one of F1's primary objectives competitive advantage through innovation.


#3156 OO7

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:13

More like they have Renault. Too much credit to Newey lately...

While Newey is clearly brilliant, anyone would be forgiven for thinking that he single-handedly designs the cars.

#3157 baddog

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 02:23

True but a diffuser does not only condition the air for drag reduction, and hasn't for some time. It can be used as part of the process in gaining a higher differential in air pressure between the top of the car and the bottom, the diffuser is designed within parameters set by the FIA, how you get the diffuser to operate at maximum efficiency is up to the teams. Don't know why people get upset at one of F1's primary objectives competitive advantage through innovation.

Indeed diffusers, almost by their very nature, produce downforce.. and optimising that once you realise it simply makes sense. There is a really really large conceptual difference between using the airflow produced by the car's speed through the air and producing pressure from the engine however.

#3158 korzeniow

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:38

Found on fifth page of the forum. RBR aren't very popular among F1 fans, are they. Anyway, here are some updates:

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#3159 TurboF1

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 15:24

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101572

Funny how since Red Bull has had to modify the suspension so that the POSSIBILITY of the ride height being changed between qualifying and the race is no longer there, that they've been relatively ordinary in qualifying, but still have very good pace in the races. Granted, the car is still one of the very best on the grid, but could this finally be the missing part of the solution of the "mystery" of the Red Bulls qualifying pace? Given that they are still a front runner during the races (Barring Monza which was never going to really suit them due to a somewhat draggy tendency of Newey cars since 2009) Since Hungary they have not had both cars in q3, granted, something may be said for the fact that Spa and Monza weren't going to be their strongest of tracks, so this will bear watching in the future.

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#3160 OO7

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 15:35

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101572

Funny how since Red Bull has had to modify the suspension so that the POSSIBILITY of the ride height being changed between qualifying and the race is no longer there, that they've been relatively ordinary in qualifying, but still have very good pace in the races. Granted, the car is still one of the very best on the grid, but could this finally be the missing part of the solution of the "mystery" of the Red Bulls qualifying pace? Given that they are still a front runner during the races (Barring Monza which was never going to really suit them due to a somewhat draggy tendency of Newey cars since 2009) Since Hungary they have not had both cars in q3, granted, something may be said for the fact that Spa and Monza weren't going to be their strongest of tracks, so this will bear watching in the future.

It is rather suspicious TurboF1. Adjustable ride-height was one of the first rumours about the RBR's qualification pace back in 2010.

#3161 TurboF1

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 17:57

It is rather suspicious TurboF1. Adjustable ride-height was one of the first rumours about the RBR's qualification pace back in 2010.



Yeah I remember they first touched on it in AUS 2010 when they saw Vettel bottoming out on track during qualy, and coming even more under focus in china 2010 when McLaren announced they started considering developing something similar but the FIA fully clamped down on preventing other teams from going down that
development route. Red Bull however, may have stolen a march there by already having it on the car disguised as something else or not readily apparent that it was
easy to adjust it after qualifying. Now that its been exposed they've appeared to have fallen back in qualifying trim bigtime. Lets see how it pans out.

#3162 prty

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 13:09

Sorry if it has already been discussed, but:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/102533

Pirelli's Formula 1 tyre test running at Barcelona was cut short today after the 2010 Renault's engine suffered an alternator failure.

The Renault R30 was running with a 2010-specification alternator, which the engine manufacturer described as "similar" to the one used in the first part of this season.

A spokesperson told AUTOSPORT: "Earlier today, an R30 from 2010 being used for Pirelli tyre testing at Barcelona experienced an alternator failure similar to the occurrence in Valencia earlier this season.

"The engine was a 2010 version fitted with a 2010 specification alternator similar to the specification used in the first part of the 2012 season."


Were there alternator problems in 2010 for Renault? They wouldn't be testing a fix for the alternator would they? :)

#3163 Clatter

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 13:14

Sorry if it has already been discussed, but:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/102533



Were there alternator problems in 2010 for Renault? They wouldn't be testing a fix for the alternator would they? :)


Of course not, the engines have changed vastly since then.....Oh wait..... :p

#3164 encircled

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:43

Mateschitz wants Renault to dump alternator supplier

“I want Renault to separate from its supplier Magneti Marelli and use someone else,” Red Bull team boss Dietrich Mateschitz is quoted by Germany’s Auto Bild Motorsport.

Renault Sport’s Remi Taffin confirmed that the French marque is considering its works partner’s request.

Despite a testy relationship between Red Bull and McLaren, it is believed that one of the only ready alternatives to Magneti Marelli is McLaren Electronic Systems (MES).



#3165 ATM_Andy

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 18:52

Mateschitz wants Renault to dump alternator supplier


MES are a subsidiary of McLaren and already supply Red Bull Racing with a number of components. The Relationship is good.

#3166 encircled

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 19:27

Thank you for that clarification ATM_Andy.

:up:

#3167 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 06:35

MES are a subsidiary of McLaren and already supply Red Bull Racing with a number of components. The Relationship is good.

Wouldn't Ferrari also use a MM alternator?

Surely the blame is at Renault or Red Bull craftiness of some sort rather than the supplier of the alternator, who has been in F1 for 20+ years with few such issues?

#3168 ATM_Andy

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:04

Surely the blame is at Renault or Red Bull craftiness of some sort rather than the supplier of the alternator, who has been in F1 for 20+ years with few such issues?


Not necessarily, Marelli have had their fair share of issues also. I think the issue stems form the fact that the Alternator design was modified yet it still failed.

#3169 mlsnoopy

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 07:23

MES are a subsidiary of McLaren and already supply Red Bull Racing with a number of components. The Relationship is good.


Are there any parts from MES on the mercedes engine, like the alternator?

#3170 ATM_Andy

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 08:03

Are there any parts from MES on the mercedes engine, like the alternator?

yup

#3171 Slowinfastout

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:44

I don't get it.. isn't this a relatively new issue?

I don't recall this alternator issue being something that plagued the Renault-engined cars in the last couple of years, why not simply revert to the old design? or whatever it is that used to not fail?

(though I could understand them wanting to switch supplier if the various KERS issues RBR have had can also be pinned on the same supplier)

Edited by Slowinfastout, 19 September 2012 - 10:49.


#3172 korzeniow

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:48

I don't get it.. isn't this a relatively new issue?

I don't recall this alternator issue being something that plagued the Renault-engined cars in the last couple of years, why not simply revert to the old design? or whatever it is that used to not fail?


I recall some rumours that it could have something to do with engine maps.

#3173 Clatter

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:16

I recall some rumours that it could have something to do with engine maps.


Why would engine maps have an effect on the alternator?

#3174 maverick69

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 11:24

Why would engine maps have an effect on the alternator?


Excess heat and having to cope with "out of spec" changes in revs (potential voltage instability) I would imagine.

#3175 Zava

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 08:54

Posted Image
oppan gangnam style! :cool:

#3176 Bartel

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:34

So where is cillurnum? "Monkey seat is just cheap downfirce for mclaren" and red bull would never need one? Lol to you wherever youre hiding.

#3177 korzeniow

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:41

So where is cillurnum? "Monkey seat is just cheap downfirce for mclaren" and red bull would never need one? Lol to you wherever youre hiding.



let sleeping trolls lie :wave:

as they say :smoking:

#3178 ZooL

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:47

MES are a subsidiary of McLaren and already supply Red Bull Racing with a number of components. The Relationship is good.

It's in your interest to not provide RBR with a McLaren alternator. RBR's loss in constructor and wdc points has been McLaren's gain.

It reminds me of when McLaren tried to help Brawn for 2009 season with the engine, and in the end that chapter had sown the seeds to Mercedes quitting McLaren and buying their own team (to McLaren's loss financially).

Edited by ZooL, 21 September 2012 - 10:48.


#3179 JRizzle86

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:56

It's in your interest to not provide RBR with a McLaren alternator. RBR's loss in constructor and wdc points has been McLaren's gain.

It reminds me of when McLaren tried to help Brawn for 2009 season with the engine, and in the end that chapter had sown the seeds to Mercedes quitting McLaren and buying their own team (to McLaren's loss financially).


You know F1 is business as well as a sport. It is in McLaren's interest to supply teams with technical systems. An alternator either works or doesn't work, it doesn't provide a performance advantage.

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#3180 Zava

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:34

heard once on the sky stream that Vettel and Webber are testing different nose cones. anyone got anything on that?

#3181 encircled

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:42

Photos from last night

Vettel
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Webber
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#3182 Zava

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:46

ah, so only camera housing difference. thanks. :)

#3183 Zava

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:07

new front wing on the car, apparently arrived today.

#3184 encircled

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 13:30

RB8 new front wing

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#3185 H2H

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 19:52


Compared to the first half of the season the second half has been rather quite when it comes to overt progress. This is partly good news since a key part of the package which was in a constant dev flux seems to have been stable. Obviously we are talking about the exhaust saga.

I wonder what progress we will see in those last races. Maybe we will see a big upgrade for the final races although one has to be remember that hitting the sweet-spot of the Pirelli will be of great importance.

#3186 ATM_Andy

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 06:32

It's in your interest to not provide RBR with a McLaren alternator. RBR's loss in constructor and wdc points has been McLaren's gain.

It reminds me of when McLaren tried to help Brawn for 2009 season with the engine, and in the end that chapter had sown the seeds to Mercedes quitting McLaren and buying their own team (to McLaren's loss financially).


It's an off the shelf component, loads of people use them. Moot point really as Renault are sticking with Marelli, for now.

#3187 apoka

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:04

Compared to the first half of the season the second half has been rather quite when it comes to overt progress. This is partly good news since a key part of the package which was in a constant dev flux seems to have been stable. Obviously we are talking about the exhaust saga.

I wonder what progress we will see in those last races. Maybe we will see a big upgrade for the final races although one has to be remember that hitting the sweet-spot of the Pirelli will be of great importance.

In my opinion, it has been a bit too quite over the past weeks. Sure, they won Singapore, but that's one of the tracks, which fits the car extremely well. And even there, McLaren looked like the better package. In addition, my feeling is that they still haven't really sorted out qualifying. AFAIR, they still don't know why the car is better in race pace compared to qualy and there are still some swings in one lap performance, which do not seem to be entirely down to the drivers. If they cannot improve the car, they more or less rely on both McLaren and Ferrari screwing up to win the WDC.

Is there any update planned for Suzuka?


#3188 encircled

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:46

Compared to the first half of the season the second half has been rather quite when it comes to overt progress. This is partly good news since a key part of the package which was in a constant dev flux seems to have been stable. Obviously we are talking about the exhaust saga.

I wonder what progress we will see in those last races. Maybe we will see a big upgrade for the final races although one has to be remember that hitting the sweet-spot of the Pirelli will be of great importance.

I hope it is the calm before the storm of working upgrades, or else it will be very difficult for them to secure the WCC, and even more difficult situation for Sebastian to win the WDC.

#3189 TurboF1

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 15:17

In my opinion, it has been a bit too quite over the past weeks. Sure, they won Singapore, but that's one of the tracks, which fits the car extremely well. And even there, McLaren looked like the better package. In addition, my feeling is that they still haven't really sorted out qualifying. AFAIR, they still don't know why the car is better in race pace compared to qualy and there are still some swings in one lap performance, which do not seem to be entirely down to the drivers. If they cannot improve the car, they more or less rely on both McLaren and Ferrari screwing up to win the WDC.

Is there any update planned for Suzuka?


Of course i'm sure you don't think Red Bull being forced to modify their suspension so that the possibility of changing the ride height after qualy has nothing to do with that right? Surely you missed my previous post regarding the disparity of their race pace vs qualy pace and the seemingly coincidental loss of one lap pace immediately following the clarification by the FiA regarding their suspension... no? Here it is again in case you missed it.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/101572

Funny how since Red Bull has had to modify the suspension so that the POSSIBILITY of the ride height being changed between qualifying and the race is no longer there, that they've been relatively ordinary in qualifying, but still have very good pace in the races. Granted, the car is still one of the very best on the grid, but could this finally be the missing part of the solution of the "mystery" of the Red Bulls qualifying pace? Given that they are still a front runner during the races (Barring Monza which was never going to really suit them due to a somewhat draggy tendency of Newey cars since 2009) Since Hungary they have not had both cars in q3, granted, something may be said for the fact that Spa and Monza weren't going to be their strongest of tracks, so this will bear watching in the future.



#3190 OO7

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:45

Ignoring the step, the new nose on the RBR cars looks great. :up:

#3191 lbennie

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:37

new nose?

I didn't notice a difference?

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#3192 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 03:58

Some flow-viz patterns spotted on RBR, closely inspected by Newey afterwards:
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#3193 apoka

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:59

Of course i'm sure you don't think Red Bull being forced to modify their suspension so that the possibility of changing the ride height after qualy has nothing to do with that right? Surely you missed my previous post regarding the disparity of their race pace vs qualy pace and the seemingly coincidental loss of one lap pace immediately following the clarification by the FiA regarding their suspension... no? Here it is again in case you missed it.

I don't buy that - not enough evidence yet. One lap pace is still there (well, on the level they have this season). It's just the McLaren has improved and is now (again) the fastest car (at least over the last couple of tracks). In addition, the field is very close this year. Webber is usually much slower than Vettel in Singapore, so it's not a huge surprise that he didn't make it to Q3.


#3194 Zava

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:04

I don't buy that - not enough evidence yet. One lap pace is still there (well, on the level they have this season). It's just the McLaren has improved and is now (again) the fastest car (at least over the last couple of tracks). In addition, the field is very close this year. Webber is usually much slower than Vettel in Singapore, so it's not a huge surprise that he didn't make it to Q3.

except he did. ;)

car looks good so far.

#3195 apoka

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:12

except he did.;)

I was relying on the quoted post to be true ("they have not had both cars in q3"). It was not.

(Note to self: Re-check all "facts" in quoted posts.)


#3196 onewingedangel

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:47

The car seems to have taken a big step forward - have to wonder if part of upgrade comes from the 'misfire' Webber felt in FP3 which the team made clear to him was not a problem :rolleyes:

#3197 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 14:25

REDBULL NEW FRONT WING

On Friday night in Japan, Red Bull got two new front wings based on the one introduced at Singapore (with a longer nosecone and new flaps, ala Lotus)......

http://www.formula1....2/878/1010.html

#3198 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 15:29

Good to see that the team are finally getting back to the speed we had got accustomed to in recent seasons, lets hope this qualifying pace continues and that the race pace is right up there as well :up:

#3199 BullHead

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 18:02

yep. however this track suits the main chassis design anyway i reckon, so i wouldn't read too much into it...

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#3200 H2H

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 18:52

yep. however this track suits the main chassis design anyway i reckon, so i wouldn't read too much into it...


This is something which I repeat and repeat because it is always easy to see a casual link where there is none. From the talk by Mark and especially Seb it seems that they got the balance practically perfect. As a team they certainly learn more and more about a car as the season continues. On this basis they develop and finetune it. Now if we consider the troubles of the whole exhaust saga, which was mostly close due the big Valencia package, they had arguably less time then McLaren do get most out of their car.

So maybe we have seen an overall performance gain compared to the rest of the top teams, maybe a rarely superb setup or maybe a more "suitable" track. I think it is a mix of all with 2 and 3 being more important. In general race pace has been better then Q3 pace apart from the odd race so thinks look good, but still everything can happen.

Edited by H2H, 06 October 2012 - 18:53.