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The RB8 - The 2012 Red Bull Racing car (merged)


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#3201 EvanRainer

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:07

Speaking of which, I have been thinking about how with almost no rule changes for next year I hope non RBR fans do not expect them to "struggle" like this year. They will be able to go into the season with a sorted out and refined car and that for me means, even if all teams are generally close, that RBR will have the edge as they have the best car fundamentally in this set of rules.

That is unless they try to push the envelope and get their solution denied and have to play catch up again like last year:)

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#3202 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 19:58

This is something which I repeat and repeat because it is always easy to see a casual link where there is none. From the talk by Mark and especially Seb it seems that they got the balance practically perfect. As a team they certainly learn more and more about a car as the season continues. On this basis they develop and finetune it. Now if we consider the troubles of the whole exhaust saga, which was mostly close due the big Valencia package, they had arguably less time then McLaren do get most out of their car.

So maybe we have seen an overall performance gain compared to the rest of the top teams, maybe a rarely superb setup or maybe a more "suitable" track. I think it is a mix of all with 2 and 3 being more important. In general race pace has been better then Q3 pace apart from the odd race so thinks look good, but still everything can happen.


Yeah you're right its been a combination of all those things, especially fine tuning the car instead of just throwing updates at it.

#3203 krapmeister

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 04:57

Supposedly there is some talk that RBR are running a DDRS system here - Brundle has mentioned it apparently...

#3204 SteF1an

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:13

Supposedly there is some talk that RBR are running a DDRS system here - Brundle has mentioned it apparently...

http://www.auto-moto...rs-5885889.html (German)

#3205 krapmeister

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:19

If true could be the decisive edge that RBR needs to haul in Alonso and address the lack of top speed that has been a bit of a weakness for the RB7, as it seems it isn't n easy thing to get right - see Lotus and their system...

#3206 F.M.

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:32

Nonsense article. Red Bull was equally as fast in the speed traps in 2010 and 2011

#3207 Zava

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:48

Nonsense article. Red Bull was equally as fast in the speed traps in 2010 and 2011

they can run more DF and still have the same top speed, that doesn't tell anything.

#3208 HoldenRT

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:55

Newey said "no comment" about DDRS.. but also said that there was nothing new this weekend..



#3209 onewingedangel

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:58

it seems it isn't n easy thing to get right - see Lotus and their system...


The Red Bull system is not a passive system - uses the Mercedes-style actiation - just stalls something other than the front wing (whether stalling rear wing further than DRS alone, or the beam wing).

So not transferable to next year, just a solution for the next 6 races.

Edited by onewingedangel, 07 October 2012 - 05:58.


#3210 Yoshi

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:01

Newey said "no comment" about DDRS.. but also said that there was nothing new this weekend..


They have now the Mercedes Style DDRS on the car.

#3211 krapmeister

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:04

The Red Bull system is not a passive system - uses the Mercedes-style actiation - just stalls something other than the front wing (whether stalling rear wing further than DRS alone, or the beam wing).

So not transferable to next year, just a solution for the next 6 races.


If it wins them this years title - and it is looking ominous - then it will be money well spent...

#3212 Kelateboy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:28

RED BULL RB8 - "DOUBLE DRS" DEVICE from www.formula1.com website.

http://www.formula1....2/878/1012.html

#3213 Zava

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:47

is it just me or they really have a new and much more good loking nose?

Posted Image


the DDRS is nice news, the best solution for their current weaknesses - quali and overtaking. :up:

#3214 H2H

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 15:42


Just listen to Marko he confirmed it even before the race.

In any case a clever design which should help them indeed in Q3, which is still important despite being no longer as critical as a couple of years ago. The recent T1 troubles is just a reminder why it is important to start ahead of the pack, even if Grosjean can still happen as Mark found out. But we also have to keep in mind that Marko said that they also had a great deal of new parts on the car, so it seems that it was a big package partly already introduced at Singapore.

I'm just gutted that the team could not earn a lot more points with Mark, the WCC is of great importance for the team. As I love the technical side of F1 I just can agree.

#3215 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:23

RED BULL RB8 - "DOUBLE DRS" DEVICE from www.formula1.com website.

http://www.formula1....2/878/1012.html

So let me get this straight. Lotus goes on and on about their DDRS for ages while stalling endlessly. In the meantime Newey gets this system working, bolts it on the car and Bobs your uncle.. Vettel is back in 2011 style.
No wonder they are constructors champions going on 3 consecutive years.

#3216 Zava

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 17:27

So let me get this straight. Lotus goes on and on about their DDRS for ages while stalling endlessly. In the meantime Newey gets this system working, bolts it on the car and Bobs your uncle.. Vettel is back in 2011 style.
No wonder they are constructors champions going on 3 consecutive years.

totally different concepts.

#3217 H2H

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 18:53


After the praise for the job done on the RB8 it is good to remind that the Ferrari was very competitive here, maybe on par with the Sauber and that only one race weekends ago the McLaren seemed by far the fastest car. So there is are a lot of good cars around which shine depending on those manyfold variables as mentioned earlier.

I'm quite keen to see how the RB8 handles Korean.

#3218 GreenMachine

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 22:34

totally different concepts.


Doesn't matter. One is out there working, the other ...

The idea is to get the car to the line first, in case you have forgotten - not to have the smartest ideas that you can't get to work properly  ;)

#3219 Kelateboy

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:54

On Lap 46, Webber was told that his exhaust temperature was too high. Anything further on this issue?

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#3220 Zava

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:58

Doesn't matter. One is out there working, the other ...

The idea is to get the car to the line first, in case you have forgotten - not to have the smartest ideas that you can't get to work properly ;)

my bad, I thought he said that "lotus has this system that's not working, and Newey put this system on the car and BAMM" so like talking about the same systems.

#3221 EvanRainer

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:26

On Lap 46, Webber was told that his exhaust temperature was too high. Anything further on this issue?


I doubt there was an issue per se. He was either pushing too hard at the time or he used an extreme setting for whatever control (torque?) to help/compensate for saving tyres or whatever else he had to do to make the strategy they were forced into work.

The cars have all sorts of different settings for all sorts of things (hence, the numerous buttons and nobs on the wheels), a lot of them are for certain situations or designed for short term usage and cannot be used the whole time without an effect on the car.

#3222 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:49

I doubt there was an issue per se. He was either pushing too hard at the time or he used an extreme setting for whatever control (torque?) to help/compensate for saving tyres or whatever else he had to do to make the strategy they were forced into work.

The cars have all sorts of different settings for all sorts of things (hence, the numerous buttons and nobs on the wheels), a lot of them are for certain situations or designed for short term usage and cannot be used the whole time without an effect on the car.

He was pushing too hard, the engineer told him: Mark, Kimi is ahead, he may have trouble with his tires, and if you have got something left, give it a go.
Before that, the message aired was "Exhaust temps are too high, change Torque demand map to 3 and brake balance forward 2 clicks".

#3223 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 13:55

my bad, I thought he said that "lotus has this system that's not working, and Newey put this system on the car and BAMM" so like talking about the same systems.

Sorry - I was a bit unclear. Not same systems per se. But similar at least.
Point being that RBR got a system working that apparently boosted their performance, while Lotus is still dicking around with theirs.

#3224 H2H

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 19:08


There has been much talk about the RBR DDRS. Obviously I don't know how it works but I think it is good to gather some info and ask some sensible questions:

1) The Pic of the official site is a good starting point but we have to dig deeper. A good path is to go back to F-duct ( or F-Vent) and the original Mercedes innovations while not forgetting Lotus efforts. Scarbs has a great wealth of pictures and all the drawing and quotes are his. Please visit his fantastic site.

Note: AMuS has the following design:

Posted Image

Keep in mind point 2). I don't know if this drawing does contradict those rules.


F-Vent - McLaren F-Vent at Suzuka 2010

Posted Image

When Sauber copied the F-duct at the 2010 Australian GP, they had their F-duct stall the wing via a stalling slot in the main plane of the rear wing. While Ferrari and Red Bull followed McLaren with a flap stalling F-duct, Force India, Renault and latterly Toro Rosso have gone the way of a main plane stalling solution. By stalling the wing much further upstream, its possible that the disruption to the airflow further reduces the upwash, in turn reducing drag even further. On the downside the wing may take longer to see the flow fully reattach when the duct is disengaged.

McLaren appear to have seen a benefit in the main plane blown effect. Although the solution has required new ducting and a new rear wing, it will only see at most three races before F-ducts are banned for 2011. Such is the cost of fighting for the championship this year.[emphasis by H2H: And people are surprised that RBR has decided to go ahead with their DDRS despite being only able to race it for 7...


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Mercedes DDRS - The Mercedes W03

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I believe Mercedes have found a way, by creating a duct through the endplate. When DRS is closed, the flap and the plate it attaches to is in a nearly vertical position. When DRS opens, the area the flap initially covered is exposed. If this area featured an opening that lead into a duct inside the endplate, when DRS opened the high pressure above the wing would force flow through the duct. With this duct then routed through the car to the front wing, when DRS is open the FDFW would be blown and stall in unison with the rear wing. Clearly when DRS closes the duct would be closed off and the duct would stop blowing the FDFW, restoring front and rear downforce.


A front wing drawing from the official Formula 1 site.

Hidden behind this carbon fibre cage on the front of the chassis are two ducts, of similar size to those passing through the engine bay (as seen arrowed in this picture ). The ducts turn 90-degrees to face downwards. When the nosecone is fitted, these ducts connect with corresponding holes in the nose cone to pressurize the nose and this in turn feeds the airflow down the front wing pylons to the front wing. Underneath the front wing there is a pair of slots. When DRS is open the flow through the ducts blows through these slots and stall the front wing.



The Lotus passive Drag reduction device (DRD) - Lotus tests a DRD

Posted Image

Unlike Mercedes whose system stalls the front wing to balance the aero when the DRS rear wing is used in qualifying (and the race); The Lotus system is passive and not linked to an external switch. Instead the system uses increasing airspeed to send more flow to slots under the wing to stall the airflow and reduce drag (and downforce). Having the passive system means that the Lotus device can be used to stall the wing above a certain speed on every lap, meaning the small c5-8kmh speed advantage is available on every straight and fast corner. With the system being tuned to airspeed, the wing can be designed to stall at speeds high enough to allow fast corners to be taken with the rear wing stalled. At these speeds the diffuser provides enough downforce for cornering and the rear wing in not required for aero load. Typically teams will want this stalling to occur at speeds of over 250kmh.


Posted Image

Then the stalling effect is created by the two pairs of slots in the last section of “L” duct, these are blowing sideways across the wing, the effect sets up a delta shaped pair of vortices that turn the laminar airflow passing under the wing into turbulent flow. This would stall a large section of the wings airflow, reducing downforce and with it the drag induced by the highly loaded wing. We can see evidence of this effect from Hungary when one of the practice runs used flowviz paint the distinctive “V” shaped area of stalled flow emanating from the slots could clearly be seen (these pcitures are posted on the F1Technical.net forum). The stalled flow only appears to cover about half of the wings underside, the limitation of the vertical slots rather than a wider slot as used in 2010 being the restriction.

Summary

We’ve seen Mercedes trial a similar device on their car at Spa, with other teams rumoured to have a system ready to test subject to conditions in Spa and its benefit at Monza. The gain of the system is small, but anything that improves aero efficiency will be useful, whether to allow a higher top speed for a given downforce level, or vice versa, a gain in downforce level for a given top speed. The gain is likely to worth no more than a tenth per lap and limited in use for circuits will shorter straights and lacking fast corners.
One issue facing the FIA and other teams is that the Mercedes DDRS solution will be banned in 2013, via wording to prevent secondary use of the DRS opening. But being passive, the Lotus system does not employ this solution to stall the wing. As it stand the Lotus will be legal for 2013, but the FIA are likely to find some wording to also outlaw this method of drag reduction.


See here the Mercedes take on the (passive) DRD. If the race the DDRS and the DRD combined this means they can reduce the drag on three wing planes. :up:

Posted Image

2) The Rules

The FIA 2010 reactions to the whole F-Duct saga esplain why the designer act like they did at Mercedes, Lotus and RBR this year:

Ban on slots in the beam wing

With the exception of the central 15cm, the beam wing cannot have a slot that widens internals to create a blown slot. Only Williams raced this last year, but the practice has prevented. This reinforces the fundamental rule that the lower wing should only be formed of one element

“3.10.1 Any bodywork more than 150mm behind the rear wheel centre line which is between 150mm and 730mm above the reference plane, and between 75mm and 355mm from the car centre line, must lie in an area when viewed from the side of the car that is situated between 150mm and 350mm behind the rear wheel centre line and between 300mm and 400mm above the reference plane. When viewed from the side of the car no longitudinal cross section may have more than one section in this area.
Furthermore, no part of this section in contact with the external air stream may have a local concave radius of curvature smaller than 100mm.
Once this section is defined, ‘gurney’ type trim tabs may be fitted to the trailing edge. When measured in any longitudinal cross section no dimension of any such trim tab may exceed 20mm.”


Posted Image


Ban on slots in the rear wing

As with the beam wing, the upper rear wing is prevented from having slots extending beyond the central 15cm. This prevent F-ducts or other blown slots, the latter which have been exploited for several years.

“3.10.2 Other than the bodywork defined in Article 3.10.9, any bodywork behind a point lying 50mm forward of the rear wheel centre line which is more than 730mm above the reference plane, and less than 355mm from the car centre line, must lie in an area when viewed from the side of the car that is situated between the rear wheel centre line and a point 350mm behind it.
With the exception of minimal parts solely associated with adjustment of the section in accordance with
Article 3.18 :
- when viewed from the side of the car, no longitudinal cross section may have more than two sections in this area, each of which must be closed.
- no part of these longitudinal cross sections in contact with the external air stream may have a local concave radius of curvature smaller than 100mm.
Once the rearmost and uppermost section is defined, ‘gurney’ type trim tabs may be fitted to the trailing edge. When measured in any longitudinal cross section no dimension of any such trim tab may exceed 20mm.
The chord of the rearmost and uppermost closed section must always be smaller than the chord of the lowermost section at the same lateral station.”


Posted Image


3) My take and my questions

As we have seen F1 designers are clever people which also can have rooms full of new and old ideas.

a) At the first glance Newey&Co have taken at least older solutions to get a practical new one. From William came the idea to blow/stall the beam wing, from Mercedes the one to use the DRS to activate the stalling. How exactly they do so effectively is difficult to say, in any case the most efficient way has been ruled out. The slot above the sides of the beam wing might well play a role, however this seems far less efficient then the banned approaches. Any ideas apart from the one seen in the Forumula 1 sketch?

This seems the be the most likely solution.

b) It could blow the rear wing. Unlikely considering the images and the potential small gain.

c) It could blow the front wing. So far no evidence for this although one should keep in mind that a new front wing was introduced - surprise, surprise - at Singapore. Actually I was going to write this done only to cover all the options but maybe there is more to it then meets the eye. I have to check that but I don't remember to have seen any internal piping behind the nose cone.


It is important to keep in mind that the ban of "direct" exhaust blowing and all too clever engine maps have taken a lot of downforce from the rear. Scarbs has said that it is much easier to get relative efficient downforce at the front then at the rear which means that the trade-off between drag and downforce is smaller at the front. In Suzuka RBR the setup was certainly great, but maybe aided in no small way by the ability to run a high downforce setting of both the beam and the rear wing and reducing the drag penalities for both during Q3 or during overtakes in the DRS zone.

So in a sense the biggest gain might be the greater ease to get a good balance race setup, especially for a circuit like Suzuka. It is worth to note RBR seems also to have adjustable front? brake ducts like McLaren, see the following pic by AMuS

Posted Image





#3225 H2H

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 19:20

Forgot about the new nose, put it in this post as the other one is already really long. :wave:

Edited by H2H, 08 October 2012 - 19:20.


#3226 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 19:22

is it just me or they really have a new and much more good loking nose?


I don't know that it's true, but in the AMuS article revealing the pivot FW they said the new nose was brought in Singapore to accompany the pivot FW and is a bit longer.


#3227 BillBald

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 00:29

Looking at Vettel's pole lap, he hardly seemed to close the DRS at all, which started me wondering.

Maybe the new Red Bull DRS solution actually adds downforce via the diffuser, at the same time as removing downforce from the rear wing and beam wing. This would tend to balance the car more, while still giving a good drag reduction since wing downforce is more draggy than diffuser downforce.

Any thoughts?



#3228 H2H

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:08

Looking at Vettel's pole lap, he hardly seemed to close the DRS at all, which started me wondering.

Maybe the new Red Bull DRS solution actually adds downforce via the diffuser, at the same time as removing downforce from the rear wing and beam wing. This would tend to balance the car more, while still giving a good drag reduction since wing downforce is more draggy than diffuser downforce.

Any thoughts?



Un bilancio aerodinamico abbastanza alto insieme ad un bilancio meccanico altrettanto alto, in quanto sia la curva 3 che la curva 9 sono molto importanti per il laptime. E qui vi enuncio un altro insegnamento di Alain, riguardo alle curve veloci e quelle lente. Siamo sempre al Paul Ricard e insieme a Prost c’era anche Mansell a provare (mamma mia che coppia di piloti, da brividi). Mansell faceva sempre in pieno Signes (300 km/h di velocità con 4.0 g di accelerazione laterale), mentre Alain toglieva il piede dall’acceleratore andando circa 5-10 km/h più piano rispetto Nigel. Poi c’era la curva doppia a destra che si faceva intorno ai 140 km/h, dove Alain era di circa 15 km/h più veloce di Mansell. Alain mi diceva: “Se perdi 5 km/h in una curva veloce che è seguita da un rettilineo breve, perdi pochissimo tempo, mentre se guadagni 5 km/h in una curva lenta guadagni una vita”. Fatevi due conti: 5 km/h su 300 km/h sono una percentuale bassa e considerate che una curva veloce dura molto poco (meno di 1 secondo) mentre 5 km/h su una curva di 100 km/h hanno un peso percentuale molto più grande ed in più una curva a 100 km/H dura molto di più (anche 4 secondi). Il suo insegnamento era: la prestazione va cercata nel lento ed il miglior laptime si ottiene facendo al meglio le curve lente. Qui cade un mito a molti di voi, ne sono certo. Però, Barcellona ha due curve veloci anomale, la 3 è lunghissima e la 9 immette in un rettilineo abbastanza lungo e quindi più velocità si riesce a portare in quella curva e più velocità si trascina lungo tutto il rettilineo. In questo caso le due curve veloci hanno un peso molto grande per il laptime di Barcellona. Quindi tanto bilancio aerodinamico e tanto bilancio meccanico.


This post is one of the reason why I think that Alain Prost is so incredibly undervalued as driver. Anyway this piece shows that it is important to keep in mind the following quote from Alain:

“Ricordati sempre che nelle curve veloci mi serve relativamente poco carico aerodinamico, ma mi serve un bilancio aerodinamico perfetto, niente sottosterzo e niente sovrasterzo. Vettura neutra. Quello che conta è il bilancio, non il livello di carico. Il carico aerodinamico mi serve nelle curve lente, in frenata ed in trazione ed il bilancio aerodinamico deve essere il più basso possibile compatibilmente con il compromesso con le altre curve. Nelle curve medio – lente mi serve un bilancio meccanico basso per avere più aderenza nell’anteriore e per cercare di mantenere più basso possibile il bilancio aerodinamico”.


It is interesting that Seb praised balance far more then every other performance element of the RB8 in Suzuka, describing how the perfect balance allowed him to get a lot quicker in S1. In the fast corners, like Alain said, it is about balance not pure downforce. In a sense S1 is about a fine aerodinamic-mechanical balance with efficient aerodynamics.

To get back to the question it is difficult to imagine that such a tiny amount of air volume can greatly increase the downforce of the car. One the other hand a relative small amount of it can stall a wing, in this case most likey part of the beam wing, while Merc took the more refined design path to the front wing. So in the end it is an interesting argument but one which is highly doubtful.

Edited by H2H, 10 October 2012 - 12:09.


#3229 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:30

Looking at Vettel's pole lap, he hardly seemed to close the DRS at all, which started me wondering.

Maybe the new Red Bull DRS solution actually adds downforce via the diffuser, at the same time as removing downforce from the rear wing and beam wing. This would tend to balance the car more, while still giving a good drag reduction since wing downforce is more draggy than diffuser downforce.

Any thoughts?

I had the same thoughts also because according to formula1.com website, RB8's DDRS works by blowing the beam wing and is channelled into the central 15cm section of the diffuser, which is free of any aero limitations.

Would not chanelling more air towards the diffuser enhance the car's aero?



#3230 EvanRainer

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:35

Since there is also word about more updates for Korea, it could be interesting to see what areas those upgrades are in (assuming we even find out). Might show what are they are focusing development on and give some hints.

#3231 OO7

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:36

is it just me or they really have a new and much more good loking nose?

Posted Image


the DDRS is nice news, the best solution for their current weaknesses - quali and overtaking. :up:

Yes, I mentioned as such previously. It looks a lot better because it has a more pronounced downward curve which lowers it.

#3232 BillBald

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:10

It is interesting that Seb praised balance far more then every other performance element of the RB8 in Suzuka, describing how the perfect balance allowed him to get a lot quicker in S1. In the fast corners, like Alain said, it is about balance not pure downforce. In a sense S1 is about a fine aerodinamic-mechanical balance with efficient aerodynamics.

To get back to the question it is difficult to imagine that such a tiny amount of air volume can greatly increase the downforce of the car. One the other hand a relative small amount of it can stall a wing, in this case most likey part of the beam wing, while Merc took the more refined design path to the front wing. So in the end it is an interesting argument but one which is highly doubtful.


Is it possible that when the beam wing is stalled, a relatively large amount of air could get redirected towards the diffuser?

I'm no aero expert (not even close), but maybe someone else could answer this. I was really impressed by the way Seb was able to use the DRS almost everywhere - Dunlop, 130R.



#3233 Kelateboy

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:18

Yes, I mentioned as such previously. It looks a lot better because it has a more pronounced downward curve which lowers it.

New RB8 nose cone introduced at Singapore GP.

http://www.f1technic...et/development/

#3234 engel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 13:22

Is it possible that when the beam wing is stalled, a relatively large amount of air could get redirected towards the diffuser?

no

I'm no aero expert (not even close), but maybe someone else could answer this. I was really impressed by the way Seb was able to use the DRS almost everywhere - Dunlop, 130R.


RB always runs more drag (more df), that's why they tend to be able to use DRS slightly more than the others. The big difference I could see is that in Singapore and Japan the car seemed better balanced front-to-back, my guess is the subtle change in the FW removed a bit of front df and channels air better for rear end df, which has tended to be an issue for RB more so than others ever since they lost the EBD

#3235 BillBald

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 14:13

RB always runs more drag (more df), that's why they tend to be able to use DRS slightly more than the others. The big difference I could see is that in Singapore and Japan the car seemed better balanced front-to-back, my guess is the subtle change in the FW removed a bit of front df and channels air better for rear end df, which has tended to be an issue for RB more so than others ever since they lost the EBD


I get your point, but if they reduced front df and increased rear df in non-DRS conditions, wouldn't that give too much understeer in the race? You'd expect them to go for a reasonably balanced car in the race (with moderate understeer to look after the rear tyres), in which case a DRS which sheds even more df than before should make it more difficult to use the DRS in quali.

Actually I've just had a thought: maybe to look after tyres on high fuel they need a degree of understeer which would cause a problem in quali, so DRS kills 2 birds with one stone - they can set the car up with a lot of understeer, but offset the understeer by using DRS in quali.
That would leave them with a problem: in slow corners they need max downforce for braking and acceleration, so they can't open the DRS to reduce the understeer, and you don't want a very understeery car in a hairpin. Maybe they get around that using other setup options.



#3236 Webber

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 18:58

wow, people here know too much

#3237 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 19:06

wow, people here know too much


:lol:

#3238 H2H

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 20:04


:lol: Nice, especially since Scarbs seems to think that the DDRS is possibly stalling parts of the top wing - not the beam wing. It shows that while tried to be systematic I was not enough so, considering that I didn't wrote that possibility down.

BTW: In TFL they discussed the balance issue shortly. In the end RBR did a great job to have a great race balance while still getting great Q3 laps with some heavy DRS use like in T15.



#3239 H2H

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:13


Did anybody spot some nice high-res pics of the RB8 especially the beam wing area?

Car looks competitive with decent top speed, which can be of considerable importance in the race, especially the DRS zone.

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#3240 Kelateboy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:40

Did anybody spot some nice high-res pics of the RB8 especially the beam wing area?

Car looks competitive with decent top speed, which can be of considerable importance in the race, especially the DRS zone.

The DRS zone has been lengthened by 80m this year to aid overtaking.

Red Bull is significantly faster this year with Vettel/Webber clocking 316.5/316.6kph in FP1 and 316.3/316.2kph in FP2.

These are respectable top speed from the Bulls.

#3241 Kelateboy

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:26

Button expects Red Bull to take pole

McLaren Jenson Button thinks McLaren will struggle to challenge for pole position at the Korean Grand Prix
but is more confident about his car's race pace..............

http://en.espnf1.com...tory/91547.html

#3242 H2H

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 14:59


The long runs don't look quite as good. Of course a lot can change in during the weekend.

#3243 encircled

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 15:09

Yes, the long runs are worrying. Hopefully they can sort this out tomorrow.

#3244 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:30

And nobody seems to care

#3245 EvanRainer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:34

Excellent performance by the team today, great pitstops.

I do hope they have something in their backlog about doing something about the starts for next year. It's the worst car off the line, at least of the top teams.

#3246 H2H

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:34

The job done by the guys in and out of Milton Keynes has been absolutely incredible. As it happens so often with Red Bull threads if things go "normal" and the car delivers nobody seems to care, as KnucklesAgain wrote.

Korea was far from an easy 1-2 but the car was there just as well as the team and the drivers. The stops were quick and the strategy was fine.

With Ferrari & McLaren having been so competitive during the season those points earned today are fantastic news for the WCC.

Edited by H2H, 14 October 2012 - 14:39.


#3247 EvanRainer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 14:38

I said in the start of the season that this is going to be a development battle and the winner will be whoever goes into the last part of the season with the best car. It looks now it may end up this way although no DNFs can be afforded yet.

What really has got to make you optimistic about next year is with no changes the team will not be going into next season on the back foot and playing catch up. Depending on what everyone comes up with of course, next year could be really close between many teams but it's also possible we have another 2011 as well.

I wonder what plans they have to improve the areas the car is lacking in.

#3248 H2H

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 15:15


As the WCC is so important for the team I should post this important standing after the great 1-2 in Korea.



Constructors:


1. Red Bull-Renault 367

2. Ferrari 290

3. McLaren-Mercedes 284

4. Lotus-Renault 255

5. Mercedes 136

6. Sauber-Ferrari 116

7. Force India-Mercedes 89

8. Williams-Renault 58

9. Toro Rosso-Ferrari 21


A quick mental calculations should show that there are still 172 available in the WCC battle. With 77 up on Ferrari and 83 on McLaren it doesn't look too bad. After all the Grosjean incidents it is surprising that Lotus is only 112 points behind and quite close to both Ferrari and McLaren, with their 4th place all but mathematically secured.

#3249 H2H

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 15:48

Fantastic pic of RBRs DDRS. It shows two openings, it seems that Mr. Newey loves to split ducts in two, as he did already with the side-ducts. All Credit to AMuS.

Posted Image

So it is pretty obvious that the wing in question gets blown in at least three areas, two external and the central one.

Edited by H2H, 14 October 2012 - 15:53.


#3250 EvanRainer

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 15:51

Where's the second opening?