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The RB8 - The 2012 Red Bull Racing car (merged)


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#3301 H2H

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:04


AMuS feature this brilliant video by Piola design which details the big update package created by the many updates in the last 3-4 races. Take a good look at the photo gallery as well to detect the finer details of the changes.

Note: So far there his no indication that the RBR DDRS stalls the front wing - maybe they just wanted to highlight the difference between the Merc and the RBR system.

Beautiful shot of the V3.2 exhaust layout with the shorter more cokey sidepod design and more prominent bulge. Quite a difference to the Barcelona test days and Oz version.

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#3302 One

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:25

Gave the F1technical thread a look and this photo is interesting.

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Take also a close look at the center of the beam wing - there doesn't seem to be a big opening, but it is difficult to say. All in all two of the most likely positions get blown, the edges of the beam wing.

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That it is a key area can be seen from this Valencia beam wing. Notice also the central slot of said wing. This shows that the edge plays a considerably enough role in the aero efficiency to get considerable attention and ressources and now some good blowing.

Scarbs imagines this attention to detail like this:

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Interesting.

What is BTW the vertical fin standing on the floor between the tire and the body work...? It is visible on the left hand side of rear crash structure...?? Looks like huge turning vane to me.

#3303 boldhakka

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 13:43

Gotta love the economy of design in RBR's take on the DDRS.

#3304 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 15:27

Some really great articles in here.

#3305 H2H

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 18:29

Interesting.

What is BTW the vertical fin standing on the floor between the tire and the body work...? It is visible on the left hand side of rear crash structure...?? Looks like huge turning vane to me.


Which one of the three high vertical fins mounted on the floor just ahead of the diffusor, between tire and the starter hole do you mean?

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As an entity the certainly manage the airflow over the diffusor. Not that the airfoil ( the shape of cross-section the fin seen from above) is more curved the more you go toward the flow and the tire. Obviously the airflow right above the floor and over/around the diffusor is the most important in critical and keep in mind we also have the plume of the exhaust blowing towards the edges of the diffusor, forming a fluid skirt. Additionally the S-ducts coming in from the apertures along the sidepods are streaming out centrally besides the starter hole and through it.



Here a fine pic from the front of those tree vanes note also the strange sculpture on the ouside of the most external one:

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IMHO some of the airflow, especiall from the external airfoil gets directed behind the rear tire aided by the aerodynamic shaping of the endplate. The carefully sculptured brake ducts play as well a bit role in this critical are.

Certainly, long gone are the times when sombody just bolted a simple rear unbroken rear wing on the car...

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As you can see in this picture also the development of the front wing is part fo the big effort to reduced the negative aerodynamic impact of that huge rotating clunk of round rubber.

All graphics from the same AMuS source!

P.S: On Scarbs we have that neat picture of the Monza spec RB8. Note that those three vanes are far shorter and curved at the upper end. (They were before at some races higher!) It is also one of the best pics of the exhaust area showing how the interior of the bulge was shaped. It is interesting to note that the three short "floor vanes" were in this case used together with long extended vanes coming out from the lower back of the endplates. Maybe the long "floor vanes" make such long extended lower rearplate vanes on most circuits unecessary and we will see the current package in all the last races.

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The Korea spec is above.


Edited by H2H, 19 October 2012 - 18:56.


#3306 Absulute

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 23:17

When I hear "Red Bull" I associate it with F1 first, extreme sports second and not the energy drink.


I associate Red Bull with an unethical product that leaves a sour taste in the mouth.

And a fizzy drink.

#3307 One

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 23:49

Which one of the three high vertical fins mounted on the floor just ahead of the diffusor, between tire and the starter hole do you mean?

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As an entity the certainly manage the airflow over the diffusor. Not that the airfoil ( the shape of cross-section the fin seen from above) is more curved the more you go toward the flow and the tire. Obviously the airflow right above the floor and over/around the diffusor is the most important in critical and keep in mind we also have the plume of the exhaust blowing towards the edges of the diffusor, forming a fluid skirt. Additionally the S-ducts coming in from the apertures along the sidepods are streaming out centrally besides the starter hole and through it.



Here a fine pic from the front of those tree vanes note also the strange sculpture on the ouside of the most external one:

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IMHO some of the airflow, especiall from the external airfoil gets directed behind the rear tire aided by the aerodynamic shaping of the endplate. The carefully sculptured brake ducts play as well a bit role in this critical are.

Certainly, long gone are the times when sombody just bolted a simple rear unbroken rear wing on the car...

Posted Image



As you can see in this picture also the development of the front wing is part fo the big effort to reduced the negative aerodynamic impact of that huge rotating clunk of round rubber.

All graphics from the same AMuS source!

P.S: On Scarbs we have that neat picture of the Monza spec RB8. Note that those three vanes are far shorter and curved at the upper end. (They were before at some races higher!) It is also one of the best pics of the exhaust area showing how the interior of the bulge was shaped. It is interesting to note that the three short "floor vanes" were in this case used together with long extended vanes coming out from the lower back of the endplates. Maybe the long "floor vanes" make such long extended lower rearplate vanes on most circuits unecessary and we will see the current package in all the last races.

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The Korea spec is above.


Wonderful....

in other words, must it be so complicated?

Sauber this year seems to have got good upperhands to RBR in the mid season. I am just curious who actually prepared the Sauber car which seems to intrigue Newey pretty much.

I surely chose a simple way if I could achieve the same effects.

#3308 H2H

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:28

Wonderful....

in other words, must it be so complicated?

Sauber this year seems to have got good upperhands to RBR in the mid season. I am just curious who actually prepared the Sauber car which seems to intrigue Newey pretty much.

I surely chose a simple way if I could achieve the same effects.


Well if you look at the cars of the turbo years they look very simple indeed. The teams had far more creative room but far less resources, know-how and technolgoy at their disposal. And those ressources were arguably spent with a different allocation. The mechanical element was far stronger and absorbed in relative terms a lot more ressources. Even 10 years ago the overall allocation was not quite as slanted towards areodynamics as now. LdM is IMHO right if he says that this relationship is too lopsided.

Nowadays the rules are very strict and the massive investment and leap in know-how and technology have been obviously created an incredible attention to interworking of the finest details. The Sauber is far, far from a simple car and full of minute details if one takes a close look, which most people won't. It is just incredible what the designers and engineers create with that straightjacket of rules. The amazing exhaust layout of the RB8 is of course the most complex solution yet in the history of F1 in this area and it is of course much harder to get that right then a more simple, let us say McLaren, solution. But right now it is one of the elements which should give the RB8 an advantage over the rest.





#3309 H2H

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:35

I played a bit with an original AMuS pic to make some things easier to understand:

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DDRS

Yellow circle: DDRS opening to stall the edges of the beam wing.
Red oval: No obvious DDRS duct coming out to blow the center of the beam wing

S-Duct

Green circle: "Exhaust" of the big upstream S-Duct which redirects a good deal of the air coming around the sidepod to avoid to upset the hot true exhaust plume. So far nobody seems to have pointed it out. Ironically I wrote after Valencia/Sivlerstone that I expected exactly such a solution to appear on the RB8.*
Pink arrow: Points toward the starter hole which gets blown by the smaller downstream S-Duct.

The three vanes

Three blue arrows: Point to the much discussed three vanes. On the other side two are hidden.


There are still many interesting details but I will leave it there. If not my gf will complain that I start to know more of the inner workings of the RB8 (diffusor) then of her.


*

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The air ducted in from around the sidepods must be come out in the center of the diffusor. The starter hole has been clearly been blown in V2.0 by air coming over/around the sidepods and partly some of the air ducted through the tunnel which had an exit upstream of the central part. If you look at the new pics and keep this in mind the solution must be similar. So while some of the air volume will certainly come out of the starter whole the other will most likely come out of those small exits alongside the gearbox, which end very close to the diffusor. In general you want to have as much control over the flow as possible and it is obviously easier to do so if you duct, a bit like the exhaust one of the RB7, comes relatively close to the area you want to influence.

The only argument which does upset this logic quite a bit is the shape of the exit. I would have expected a long slit instead of the seemingly simple pipe-alike one outboard of the gear box a bit similar in shape to exit of V2.0 Maybe it was a low risk solution in that specific area, with the focus on the arguably more important exhaust plume area. Or it might have to do with rules. We will see.


Edited by H2H, 20 October 2012 - 12:50.


#3310 HoldenRT

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 00:19

These car topics are getting more and more advanced these days.. :) :up:

#3311 H2H

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:42

These car topics are getting more and more advanced these days.. :) :up:


Technology helps in this case...

Adrian talks about the RB8 and the 2013+2014 rules.

Glad that people appreciate the technical side of the business :up:

Edited by H2H, 21 October 2012 - 18:22.


#3312 Kelateboy

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:16

Does anybody know the updates Red Bull will be bringing to India?

#3313 boldhakka

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 16:06

Does anybody know the updates Red Bull will be bringing to India?


I looked pretty hard (F1technical, Scarbs, etc.), and there's no word on what's coming, so far.

#3314 EvanRainer

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 16:16

Probably even more refinement at the back of the car, after all the DDRS hasn't had that many iterations yet.

#3315 H2H

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 18:41

These car topics are getting more and more advanced these days.. :) :up:


Glad you like it, I browsed throught the other car threads and they are not so much about the car. F1 technical is for this kind of stuff the far better forum, even if a good deal of the post is also not not interesting.

Most of the credit should go to smart guys designing the stuff and the clever people finding out about it. Scarbs especially has greatly influenced me. What surprised me is that so far nobody has seemingly openly taken notice how the "exhaust" (green circle) of the big duct has changed. But no doubt all the other teams know that all too well.

Post Valencia it was ducted like that:

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At the Korean GP. If you look carefully you can also see here how the packaging of the duct forced them to raise the level of the floor in "right" area, internally behind the sidepod and under the arms of the suspension. Original pic by AMuS.

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The second, smaller S-Duct should still blow the starter hole as it did in Valencia:

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Edited by H2H, 21 October 2012 - 18:50.


#3316 One

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 22:48

nice graphics.

Next Year Key is doing STR with RBR-esque budget. Looking forward.

#3317 Disgrace

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 22:53

nice graphics.

Next Year Key is doing STR with RBR-esque budget. Looking forward.


Wait, what? Red Bull is increasing their investment into STR?

#3318 lbennie

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:33

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do the ducts appear asymmetrical to anyone else in the drawing above?

1st duct opening on near side is larger than 2nd duct opening, where as its the other way around on far side?


#3319 jstrains

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:30

Nice to see my old hero in a racing car again

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#3320 bourbon

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:48

^^indeed. It was a thing of beauty!! :D :up:

#3321 H2H

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:57

Indeed. AMuS has a great Piola video comparing the RB6 with the RB7. Personally I think the late RB6 has been my favorite in terms of design. A brilliant sleek and distinct design with a blown Double diffusor and and F-Duct it was arguably the RBR car with the biggest overall pace advantage over the competitors. With the rules stable the others could catch up but the RB7 pushed hard in key areas like the blown exhaust. Still the vastly increased performance of the whole team and the Seb factor made the successor on of the most winning designs in F1 history.

The most impressing difference - amazing how much DF the F1 guys get from such a small diffusor...

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In terms of exhaust layout this pics are very interesting, pictures from F1technical, Getty images and AMuS (three). Drawings are mine:


mid + late RB5

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late RB6

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early RB7

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latest RB8

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The aggressive RB7 design was only possible due to extensive clever engine mapping developed alongside with the RB6 with first blew the diffusor. What amazes me despite having a decent idea about the cars is the level of detail and polish between the RB5 and RB8.

Edited by H2H, 22 October 2012 - 07:22.


#3322 plumtree

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 10:37

Just for fun! :)

Red Bull Stratos vs Formula One

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We compare Felix Baumgartner’s breath-taking Stratos jump with Sebastian Vettel’s Korean GP victory.

On October 14th 2012, Sebastian Vettel won the Korean Grand Prix for Red Bull Racing and then, just hours later, Felix Baumgartner completed his incredible live jump from the edge of space. We compare the two achievements side by side as we look at height, distance and most importantly speed.

Felix’s jump in Roswell, New Mexico was from a world record distance of 128,097 feet or 39,045 metres. The 309.155km long Korean Grand Prix is around eight times as long.

It took Felix roughly two and a half hours to get up to the world record height using a hi-tech weather balloon. If a Formula One car could drive there, it would take around seven and a half minutes at top speed.

It took Felix just 4.20 minutes to complete his free fall from 128,097 feet. Sebastian, who led every lap, took just over 12 minutes to complete this distance in the Korean Grand Prix.

Felix became the first man to break the sound barrier unaided by a vehicle. A Formula One car’s top speed would have to be almost four times as fast for it to be able to break the sound barrier.

During the jump Felix recorded a top speed of 1,342.8kph (833mph.) The top speed in the Korean Grand Prix was set by Jean-Eric Vergne who set a speed of 324.5kph (201mph.)

At an average speed of 833mph, Felix could do a lap of the Korean Grand Prix circuit in around 15 seconds, Mark Webber’s fastest race lap was a 1 minute 42.037 seconds.

Sebastian took victory in Korea and the lead of the world championship, as he aims to make it three championships in a row. In the Stratos mission, Felix broke three world records; First free-fall to break the sound barrier, free-fall from highest altitude and highest manned balloon flight.



* Seb and Felix have met before. http://www.youtube.c...zMAZfC7M#t=279s

#3323 H2H

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:19

The aerodynamic revolution of the RB8 is a neat Italian video of the Gazzetta dello Sport. The "versione C" which is basically their Japanese car has not all the important details, does show only a single S-duct and does IMHO let the exhaust blow also too much internally but it is a great animation which should help many a great deal to understand more.

Another Gazzetta video shows more about the mechanical side of the RB8. Obviously it has been animated with the old "versione A" ,the car version which run in winter testing, but it is a great focus on the mechanical side of F1 which is sadly often missed. It is quite telling that in this case the mechanical changes serve the aerodynamic needs.

The exhaust changes of the RB6 and of the RB7 are older videos which show the long (partly forced) evolution of the RBR cars. The latter is interesting as it shows something in moving pictures which have discussed earlier, the need to manage the turbulences caused by the rear tyres which causes drag and aerodynamic inefficiency.

Edited by H2H, 23 October 2012 - 07:30.


#3324 H2H

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 17:54

Actually I only now possibly understood this picture fully:

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Of course we know all about the DDD but not that the central area actually slightly higher in the RB7 diffusor. Why? My guess:

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... they started to blow the starter hole. Not the biggest of deal but it shows the attention to interworking detail and the general polish in design and engineering department. Overall the whole team stepped up massively in the last years.

Scarbs wrote this after the Monaco GP and the exposed floor:

What’s most interesting from Jean Baptistes picture are the two ducts set into the floor ahead of the diffuser. Looking closer we can see these two inlets, lead to ducts that pass inside the engine bay and either side of the starter motor tube. The starter motor hole in the boat-tail of the diffuser is a wide slot, so I believe these ducts blow the starter motor slot. Until other teams cottoned on to Newey’s exploitation of the outer 5cm of floor, most teams pointed their exhausts towards the Starter Motor Hole (SMH), as a way of using the high velocity exhaust gas, to drive more flow through the diffuser and thus create lower pressure for more downforce. With Newey’s outer blown diffuser he could not exploit the large SMH with his exhausts, so this solution allows him to exhaust-blow the diffuser and passively-blow the SMH. By passive-blowing, I mean the exhaust is not used to blow the SMH, but simply the normal airflow over the car. Of course the effect of this passive blowing is dependant on the airflow approaching the ducts inlets. The RB7 has all enclosing bodywork around the gearbox and floor. So airflow could not directly lead to the SMH. So Newey has had to duct flow to this area. It’s unlikely that the flow arriving at these ducts is that powerful, having had to pass around the sidepods and over the fairings covering the exhausts. This is likely to be a small aero gain, albeit one that other teams with similar gearbox fairings could employ. Should the engine mapping ban make the outer blown diffuser solution too sensitive to throttle position, then this duct could receive the exhaust flow to still provide a degree of blown diffuser.


Now if we take a look at the RB8 we can see that the rules might have changed but the basic idea is still the same and achieved with a duct albeit of far more complex nature...

Edited by H2H, 23 October 2012 - 17:57.


#3325 boldhakka

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 15:10

Thanks H2H, these are very interesting. Watched all the videos. The animations are incredibly useful in helping understand the air flow - I could never fully grasp the static images with yellow and red arrows.

#3326 H2H

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 17:17

Glad you like it. It is quite an advantage to speak many languages even if English is F1's lingua franca. Many great sources are for example German and Italian, too nations with a great engineering tradition.

The original pull-rod which set the standard in todays F1. Ferrari uses it now also at the front. The video is here to explain better the concept. Still today the RB8 has a similar push-rod front suspension.

The DDD evolution of the RB5 was difficult as the car was not designed around it like the Brawn GP1. The external area of the diffusor is interesting as it shows the close attention given to it, which is still true for the RB8. The RB6 had a raised gearbox to allow for more room and thus a more efficient use of the DDD.
Nowadays the balance of the car is fixed, but in 2009 it was one of the reasons why RBR didn't go the KERS way. Getting weigth in front was critical to increase the tire performance.

Here we can see the role the big "exhaust" behind the airbos plays, it was first seen on the RB6 IIRC.

Edited by H2H, 24 October 2012 - 17:29.


#3327 plumtree

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 00:29

Sorry, again an off-topic stuff. Hope you don't mind.

Adrian Newey’s F1 evolution

... We knew Adrian would clearly be desperate to drive his new toy (RB6), so the next time I saw him I tweaked my pitch: how about we organise a test where he gets to drive both the Leyton House and the Red Bull together, giving him the chance to compare and contrast two of his designs that just happen to be conveniently separated by a timeframe of 20 years. Pivotal F1 evolution at our fingertips. ...

... My answer came from Adrian himself. He went ahead and booked the Silverstone national circuit himself, for September 4, two days after the Belgian GP and three before free practice at Monza. We were finally on.

As a filming day, the run would not contravene F1’s tough testing restrictions. But to hire Silverstone, and for Red Bull to send its test team and full support (two articulated lorries)… this was going to be expensive. Thankfully, the BBC joined the party to share the load, and their filmed version of our feature, featuring David Coulthard, should be a highlight of the Indian GP coverage this weekend. Look out for it.

The test day itself was nerve-shredding, for all involved except Newey himself it seemed. He was totally at ease in his Red Bull overalls. In contrast, the engineers and mechanics were terrified their prize asset would hurt himself, a concerned Christian Horner even turning up to watch from the pitwall. “He’s going too fast,” he’d murmur during Adrian’s run in the RB6.

Next door, Patrick was nervous that the Leyton House would let him down (it didn’t). And I was on edge that we’d get the story we’d craved for so long. It felt too good to be true. Would it really come together? ...

So presumably BBC's 'Racing Lines' feature on Korean GP weekend was filmed on the same day. :)

#3328 H2H

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:57

That is a neat catch, I just love the F1 evolved. (Ok at least partly)

AMuS does sum up the RB8 development from their point of view. I do, as almost usually not agree with all points but the following is especially interesting.

FIA zwingt Red Bull fünf Mal zum Abrüsten

Im Gegensatz zu den anderen Ingenieuren geht Newey bewusst in die Grauzonen des Reglements. Wenn ihm die FIA auf die Finger klopft, rüstet er zurück. So geschehen bei dem Schlitz im Unterboden (Monte Carlo), der Luftdurchführung durch die Vorderachse (Montreal), den manuell verstellbaren Dämpfer an der Vorderachse (Montreal), die Motorsoftware, die bei Vollgas 35 Prozent Leistung weggeregelt hat (Hockenheim) und den Frontflügel, der sich um die Horizontalachse drehen konnte (Singapur).

Bei Red Bull streitet man die Existenz des Klappflügels nicht einmal ab. "Wir sind durch die technische Abnahme gekommen. Das ist das einzige, was zählt", rapportiert Teamberater Helmut Marko mit einem Lächeln im Gesicht. Marko kündigte auto motor und sport gegenüber auch an: "Wir werden bis Abu Dhabi in dem Stil mit unseren Entwicklungsprogramm weitermachen." Gute Nacht Ferrari, McLaren und Lotus.


There is no question that RBR does systematically go into the grey areas and comes up with solution which follow the letter but not exactly the spirit of the rules. No other team does arguably push so hard in development. It would be just lovely to be there when certain things are discussed in MK.

Die Endrohre liegen in ihrer jüngsten Version an einem Punkt, den das Reglement in Bezug auf Höhe, Nähe zur Hinterachse und Entfernung zur Mittellinie des Autos gerade noch erlaubt. Lotus-Technikchef James Allison ist überzeugt: "Keiner holt mehr aus dem Coanda-Auspuff als Red Bull."


The exhaust layout is perhaps the key performance differentiator of the RB8 and it is hardly surprising that it is as low, aft and outboard that the rules allow. It is good to see that James Allison seems to be convinced of what I wrote here many times.

Edited by H2H, 25 October 2012 - 08:58.


#3329 H2H

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 16:41

Amazing Sutton pics.


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The twisted airfoil extending from the inside of the rear wheel hub towards those three vanes can be seen very well. It is certainly part of the complicated flow management of the coanded exhaust plume and the downwash coming over the sidepod.

Here an older pic from Korea to view it from the rear. It is between the start of the 'S' and the first 't' of 'Sutton'.

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.. and another Korea shot with a neat angle which shows a lot of the floor area which we usually don't see.

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You can see the prominent bulge and below the fence dividing the two S-ducts in this India pic:

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Edited by H2H, 25 October 2012 - 20:03.


#3330 H2H

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 17:24

About "Tyre Squirt", from Scarbs:


Tyre Squirt Slots

The hole is set into the floor ahead of the rear tyres is to aid airflow in the diffuser. It’s used to offset an aerodynamic phenomenon called “tyre squirt”, this the effect of the rear tyres splitting the airflow sending a bow wave of air into the diffuser. This is an unwanted effect, as the tyre squirt is of low energy and has a detrimental effect on flow through the diffuser, this robs the diffuser of downforce.


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The tyre squirt slot offsets this problem by taking the high pressure from above the floor and directing it along the flank of the diffusers footplate. This adds extra energy into the flow along the edge of the diffuser, redirecting the low energy tyre squirt away from the diffuser. Having a bad tyre squirt effect will rob the diffuser by as much as 50% of its flow, getting it right merely maximises the potential of the diffuser. Having a slot to negate tyre squirt will gain some downforce and hence lap time.

Tyre squirt slots were common in 2010, when the problem became better understood and Exhaust positioning was well inboard of the outer flank of the diffuser. In 2011 the rules regarding openings in the floor were changed, to combat the double diffusers. At the same time teams placed their exhausts further outboard of the diffuser, blowing along the flank and footplate, which had the same effect as the tyre squirt slot, so the slots fell out of fashion in 2011. For 2012 with the exhaust rules altered to ban blowing low near the diffuser, so these slots have become useful again. However the rules that came into force in 2011 are making the slots difficult to engineer.


Nota bene that the RB7 had arguably the most sophisticated exhaust package in 2011. It is worth noting that the solutions found at the 2012 Monaco GP were not allowed to be raced in Canada. Since then the floor is without any slots in this key area, which becames maybe less of a surprise once you make a connection with the big Valencia/Silverstone exhaust update a race afterwards. A package designed to direct a high energy flow into the very area into which the tyre-squirted air wants to flow.

Edited by H2H, 25 October 2012 - 19:45.


#3331 H2H

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 19:50

SommerF1 has a nice thread about the latest RBR updates till Korea. I like especially this pic:


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Above: In the image above I've overlayed a picture of the RB8 from Hungary (Right) with an image from Suzuka. The Green arrows depict the placement of the FOM camera's, Yellow arrow's show the difference in the Top Flap and I've lightened the area under the nose on the left and marked it with a Red arrow to show the 'Pelican'. (The image will never give a 100% accurate impression of the as they are taken from different distances/angles and the car is in different stages of inertia but I feel it gives an idea of what you should be looking for)



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Above: As an idea of how the airflow is being affected by these Sidepod revisions I've done a very basic overlay. Light Blue is the downwash which is attracted by the exhaust plume and converges with it (marked in red) With the Sidepod now running short of the Vertical Floor Strake it allows some of the airflow that doesn't enter the tunnels to be attracted around into the exhaust plume (marked orange) This cleans up the airflow in front of the tyre (marked Green) reducing the amount of 'Tyre Squirt' that would normally impinge on the diffuser.


I posted this because it shows the basic flows quite neatly. However I do not agree with his depiction of the airflow around the sidepod and the resulting orange area for the reasons given above. Still a nice article


P.S: RBR has of course still the HH or Resonator chamber which was first spotted in Silverstone.

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Edited by H2H, 25 October 2012 - 20:08.


#3332 H2H

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:39


Looks not too bad. It will be interesting to see which setup path they will take for the race.

#3333 oetzi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:58

P.S: RBR has of course still the HH or Resonator chamber which was first spotted in Silverstone.

I don't know if you've seen yet, but I answered your question about the Helmholtz resonator in the Ferrari thread. In about four posts, after some memory exercises and a fair bit of googling. Ferrari have been running one since late last season, more links and info over there.

#3334 Kelateboy

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 13:11

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Red Bull detail, the pod with the yellow label is an optimess laser sensor http://t.co/kllCte0b via @AMSonline - ScarbsF1


#3335 Kelateboy

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 13:14

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Red Bull gearbox for comparison, note the alloy pullrod rocker sits outside the case to operate the springs\dampers - ScarbsF1

#3336 Kelateboy

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 13:36

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103710

Red Bull faces alternator switch by the United States Grand Prix

#3337 H2H

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 18:18

I don't know if you've seen yet, but I answered your question about the Helmholtz resonator in the Ferrari thread. In about four posts, after some memory exercises and a fair bit of googling. Ferrari have been running one since late last season, more links and info over there.


Thanks I found it. I did browse a bit trough the Ferrari threat during the season, but there was really no big discussion about it. The differences in packaging and seemingly volume would make for quite an interesting discussion.

Nice catches Kelateboy, I like the sleek look of the gearbox. If you have older push-rod types in mind you certainly do appreciated the better aeropackage, at least under the current rules.

Edited by H2H, 26 October 2012 - 18:20.


#3338 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 18:39

Apologies if posted before, I hadn't heard about it and thought it's very clever. James Allen:

The teams are allowed special dispensation to place their own cameras on the cars during practice to show how their latest updates are working. Most of the teams do it, but Red Bull have an infrared or thermographic camera, mounted on the right side of the engine cover, which can film the exhaust gas flow as it exits the exhausts and passes down into the diffuser, measuring and observing the Coanda effect.


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 26 October 2012 - 18:39.


#3339 oetzi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 23:54

Thanks I found it. I did browse a bit trough the Ferrari threat during the season, but there was really no big discussion about it. The differences in packaging and seemingly volume would make for quite an interesting discussion.

iirc the Ferrari implementation changed a fair bit in both size and positioning in the early stages, and only settled down a few races into this season. I haven't followed the Red Bull implementation. Has it been fairly constant, or are they playing with it?

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#3340 H2H

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 10:15

iirc the Ferrari implementation changed a fair bit in both size and positioning in the early stages, and only settled down a few races into this season. I haven't followed the Red Bull implementation. Has it been fairly constant, or are they playing with it?


I was just refering to the resonator/HH/exhaust chamber, basically that pipes which curves away from the exhaust pipe, upstream under the sidepod's skin and has a dead end. There seems to have been no changes between the earlier version and the later one. RBR seems to have it introduced it in Valencia with the big exhaust package update V3.0 and it seems have stayed pretty much the same.

--

Other then that it was practically the best possible result for the team. We will have to see if the race pace will be good enough. Certainly there seems good confidence.

Edited by H2H, 27 October 2012 - 10:16.


#3341 H2H

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 11:31

Apologies if posted before, I hadn't heard about it and thought it's very clever. James Allen:


It is nothing new in itself, but a nice article showing the great drive towards efficiency and effectivness in getting as much out of those short "testing days". We have seen an ever growing sophistication and growth in the use of onboard testing equipment with a lot of clever rigs out there. As a matter of fact it would be fantastic if somebody would made an detailed article about this topic - hint Autosport hint.

Why have we seen such a rapid development in this area?

1) The greatly reduced amount of testing days.
2) The greatly reduced amount of windtunnel days.
3) The importance of exhaust blown diffusors which is very hard to model in the tunnel and in CFD. No so many correlation problems with the on-track tests.
4) The big drive in technology which allows you to get more and better data with less hassle.

Personally I do think 1-3 are more important factors, the FP has become incredibly important also for overall development of the car since it is very hard to do so in former key areas.





#3342 korzeniow

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 12:05

click for high resolution

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#3343 H2H

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 14:05


Thanks for posting those neat shots of the inflow area of the DDRS. In the F1 technical thread I found now arguably one of the best pics if not the best of the outflow area of the big S-Duct:

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Here we can see the exhaust bulge area.

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#3344 H2H

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 14:17

The pic was found at F1 technical, the drawing is mine as I wanted to makes things a bit more obvious for those who don't follow the thread so closely. Of course the area inside the red oval is where the bigger S-Duct ends and blows the cold air out.

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Look at his older post with a shot from the rear, in this case at the green circle:

I played a bit with an original AMuS pic to make some things easier to understand:

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DDRS

Yellow circle: DDRS opening to stall the edges of the beam wing.
Red oval: No obvious DDRS duct coming out to blow the center of the beam wing

S-Duct

Green circle: "Exhaust" of the big upstream S-Duct which redirects a good deal of the air coming around the sidepod to avoid to upset the hot true exhaust plume. So far nobody seems to have pointed it out. Ironically I wrote after Valencia/Sivlerstone that I expected exactly such a solution to appear on the RB8.*
Pink arrow: Points toward the starter hole which gets blown by the smaller downstream S-Duct.

The three vanes

Three blue arrows: Point to the much discussed three vanes. On the other side two are hidden.


There are still many interesting details but I will leave it there. If not my gf will complain that I start to know more of the inner workings of the RB8 (diffusor) then of her.


*




To make things clearer Scarbs to the rescue:

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Needless to repeat that the outflow area has change a great deal since Valencia...

Edited by H2H, 27 October 2012 - 14:21.


#3345 tmprikol

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 04:22

Guys,

RedBull had to push really hard this season to get in a position of winning, unlike last season. So they might have had more time for development of this year's car because RB7 was so dominant last year.

My question is how do you guys think this season will impact the development of their next year's car?

Edited by tmprikol, 28 October 2012 - 04:26.


#3346 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:43

Guys,

RedBull had to push really hard this season to get in a position of winning, unlike last season. So they might have had more time for development of this year's car because RB7 was so dominant last year.

My question is how do you guys think this season will impact the development of their next year's car?


There will be no big technical changes, that means you can carry on the latest development which could be pretty useful. Red Bull could dominate next year easily, but who knows? One thing is for sure they have been dominating since the middle of 2009 with some very short brakes of a few races. Embarassing. I don't wanne to talk about cos I am on the verge of blowinf up in rage. Here is Fernando and Lewis, the best drivers in the world and they are wasting their megatalent because Seb is given a 10 seconds quicker car.

#3347 fatd

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:03

There will be no big technical changes, that means you can carry on the latest development which could be pretty useful. Red Bull could dominate next year easily, but who knows? One thing is for sure they have been dominating since the middle of 2009 with some very short brakes of a few races. Embarassing. I don't wanne to talk about cos I am on the verge of blowinf up in rage. Here is Fernando and Lewis, the best drivers in the world and they are wasting their megatalent because Seb is given a 10 seconds quicker car.


Well.. by your post you're actually talking about it.
But judging from your posts in various thread, I'd agree with you, you'd better not talk about it really. :wave:

#3348 Zava

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:03

There will be no big technical changes, that means you can carry on the latest development which could be pretty useful. Red Bull could dominate next year easily, but who knows? One thing is for sure they have been dominating since the middle of 2009 with some very short brakes of a few races. Embarassing. I don't wanne to talk about cos I am on the verge of blowinf up in rage. Here is Fernando and Lewis, the best drivers in the world and they are wasting their megatalent because Seb is given a 10 seconds quicker car.

latest break was 14 races. hardly short, few races, right? :)
can you promise that you will stop posting to Vettel/RB topics if you finally blow up in rage?

#3349 FerrariAlonso

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:05

latest break was 14 races. hardly short, few races, right? :)
can you promise that you will stop posting to Vettel/RB topics if you finally blow up in rage?


RB were dominating in Bahrain (with Lotus which had brand-new tyres) and Valencia.

#3350 Zava

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:11

RB were dominating in Bahrain (with Lotus which had brand-new tyres) and Valencia.

so, what if Kimi had some new tyres? it is like saying lotus were dominating in bahrain (with red bull having a brand-new exhaust solution) :drunk:
and to dominate, you should be able to finish the race first... HRT could fuel their cars for 10 laps, blitz the field then pull out of the race, would you call them dominant?