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The RB8 - The 2012 Red Bull Racing car (merged)


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#3351 F.M.

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:39

There will be no big technical changes, that means you can carry on the latest development which could be pretty useful. Red Bull could dominate next year easily, but who knows? One thing is for sure they have been dominating since the middle of 2009 with some very short brakes of a few races. Embarassing. I don't wanne to talk about cos I am on the verge of blowinf up in rage. Here is Fernando and Lewis, the best drivers in the world and they are wasting their megatalent because Seb is given a 10 seconds quicker car.

I think Seb simply brings way more than 6-tenths to a car, therefor, his car is faster than Alonso's.

:p

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#3352 choyothe

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:42

Only a matter of time "RB8 is the greatest F1 car ever built"-posts show up I think.

#3353 H2H

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:43

Only a matter of time "RB8 is the greatest F1 car ever built"-posts show up I think.


Seb works hard on it. ;)

I remember the idiotic threads about the RB7 being the most dominant car in the history of the sport while the facts showed that there are actually quite a bit of cars who had a considerably bigger performance advantage over the rest of the competition and often good reliability to got with it.

It is so amusing to see people working with impressions taken with the hindsight of success and not facts.

Edited by H2H, 28 October 2012 - 12:44.


#3354 LiJu914

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:45

There will be no big technical changes, that means you can carry on the latest development which could be pretty useful. Red Bull could dominate next year easily, but who knows? One thing is for sure they have been dominating since the middle of 2009 with some very short brakes of a few races. Embarassing. I don't wanne to talk about cos I am on the verge of blowinf up in rage. Here is Fernando and Lewis, the best drivers in the world and they are wasting their megatalent because Seb is given a 10 seconds quicker car.



So they have even more potential in the car... ;)

Edited by LiJu914, 28 October 2012 - 12:46.


#3355 F1isZen

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:48

Well.. by your post you're actually talking about it.
But judging from your posts in various thread, I'd agree with you, you'd better not talk about it really. :wave:



why so insecure about someone elses opinion. Says a lot about you to be honest if anything. One thing to disagree with someone, but its another to be so uncomfortable with an opinion that you wish it go away because it doesn't please your own bias views

Edited by F1isZen, 28 October 2012 - 12:57.


#3356 F1isZen

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:53

Seb works hard on it.;)

I remember the idiotic threads about the RB7 being the most dominant car in the history of the sport while the facts showed that there are actually quite a bit of cars who had a considerably bigger performance advantage over the rest of the competition and often good reliability to got with it.

It is so amusing to see people working with impressions taken with the hindsight of success and not facts.



What? There was a car that could compete with the RB7 in 2011?...Why just say a throw away comment with no proof. There is no evidence that can come from anyone credible that proves Vettel didn't have the best car in 2011. Even a die hard fan. This is a very delusional point you have just made. We all had eyes last season

#3357 LiJu914

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:01

What? There was a car that could compete with the RB7 in 2011?...Why just say a throw away comment with no proof. There is no evidence that can come from anyone credible that proves Vettel didn't have the best car in 2011. Even a die hard fan. This is a very delusional point you have just made. We all had eyes last season


Your are a brave man.

Answering a post without having understood a word of it must cost quite an effort.

#3358 fatd

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 13:05

why so insecure about someone elses opinion. Says a lot about you to be honest if anything


Well, sorry if it comes across as so. I meant it to be a sarcasm over the "I'm about to blown out with rage", because I felt he already is.
I am open to different opinions, as long as respectable ones. But you're right I'm not making it more educated by responding to that, my bad.

Edited by fatd, 28 October 2012 - 13:05.


#3359 boldhakka

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 15:42

Not a perfect weekend. Ferrari are close, RBR can't afford any more reliability problems. The McLarens are no longer capable of buffering the Ferraris.

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#3360 H2H

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:10

What? There was a car that could compete with the RB7 in 2011?...Why just say a throw away comment with no proof. There is no evidence that can come from anyone credible that proves Vettel didn't have the best car in 2011. Even a die hard fan. This is a very delusional point you have just made. We all had eyes last season


Your wrote this. I wrote that.

Seb works hard on it.

I remember the idiotic threads about the RB7 being the most dominant car in the history of the sport while the facts showed that there are actually quite a bit of cars who had a considerably bigger performance advantage over the rest of the competition and often good reliability to got with it.

It is so amusing to see people working with impressions taken with the hindsight of success and not facts.


Note the bit about the history of the sport. I thought I was quite obvious that with other cars I meant cars like the Williams FW14B but it seems that while most understood that you did not. Wiki has a short entry which will suffice as I have no time to repeat the facts stated last year:

In 1992, after further development work was done to the gearbox, traction control and the active suspension, the FW14B was the dominant car and Mansell wrapped up the championship with a then record 9 wins in a season, whilst Patrese scored a further win. Patrese didn't warm to the car as much as the FW14, as he preferred the passive suspension in that chassis. Williams were clear winners of the constructors' championship, but the season ended in acrimony as Mansell left the team after Alain Prost was signed, while Patrese moved to Benetton for his swansong season in 1993. There were many races where Mansell and Patrese would gain 2 seconds on the rest of the field every lap, usually in the first 10 laps, which made it completely obvious that the FW14B was far superior to even the next best car, the McLaren MP4/7A. Another example of Williams' dominance that year was at qualifying at the British Grand Prix at Silverstone, where Mansell was a whole 2 seconds faster than his teammate Patrese, who again was a second faster than 3rd placed Ayrton Senna.
The FW14 won 17 grands prix, 21 pole positions and 289 points before being replaced with the FW15C for 1993. Given that current F1 regulations ban many of the technologies used by the FW14B and FW15C, these are considered among the most technologically advanced racing cars ever built.[3]


Such performances gaps are long gone.

Edited by H2H, 28 October 2012 - 17:11.


#3361 choyothe

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 17:58

Your are a brave man.

Answering a post without having understood a word of it must cost quite an effort.


:rotfl:

#3362 H2H

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:04


To get back to the topic the Gazzetta dello Sport has nice animations about the various DDRS. They seem a bit confused over the Lotus DRD which should rated as something different according to Scarbs. The reason is of course it's automatic or passive nature which has no link with the standard DRS system.

The official F1 site has finally a graphic about the Helmholtzh/Resonator/Exhaust chamber of the RB8 which was first spotted after Valencia.

Posted Image

The new nose is also featured:

Posted Image

The AMuS video posted earlier in this thread offers arguably the best overview of the technical evolution of the RB8 which broke the superiority of the McLaren from Suzuka onwards.

#3363 Matt Somers

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 20:43

Hey guys, I wrote this article just over a week ago and it highlights most of the recent changes on the RB8 http://somersf1.blog...t-analysis.html
The team did make further alterations in India which I'm just writing about in my Tech Roundup for the race




#3364 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:35

Hey guys, I wrote this article just over a week ago and it highlights most of the recent changes on the RB8 http://somersf1.blog...t-analysis.html
The team did make further alterations in India which I'm just writing about in my Tech Roundup for the race


Great article, Matt.
So did I, but in my native Bulgarian, for the local magazines and sites, example with AutoBild.bg

#3365 H2H

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:02

@Matt and @kvarbanov: As I didn't find any recent discussion/pics about the exhaust/outflow of the bigger Sidepod-Duct it would be nice to include them in a new article about the RB8. I don't know exactly since which GP Red Bull races the current version but I spotted it IIRC first in Korea.

Here the relevant pics, clean versions can be found in this thread and at the original sources:

Posted Image

Posted Image

(Green oval)

Thanks for your efforts, sadly I don't speak Bulgarian...

Edited by H2H, 29 October 2012 - 08:02.


#3366 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:09

Thanks for your efforts, sadly I don't speak Bulgarian...


I would be surprised if you did :) Here's the translated English version via Google Translate.

I don't go into that much details in my article, I was rather summing up all of the stuff that RBR were able to introduce in a relatively short period of time. Besides, I'm not even sure just how much people would be interested in such discussions, so I went for the simpler road. However, I will gladly discuss here, as soon as I have time, as there's a lot to be talked about.

Thanks for those pictures, the original one from AMuS with the yellow circle only was actually posted by me in another, more technical forum.

Edited by kvarbanov, 29 October 2012 - 08:11.


#3367 H2H

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:10

I forgot the post one of the most important outcomes of the race:


Pos Team

1 Red Bull Racing-Renault 407
2 Ferrari 316
3 McLaren-Mercedes 306
4 Lotus-Renault 263
5 Mercedes 136
6 Sauber-Ferrari 116
7 Force India-Mercedes 93
8 Williams-Renault 59
9 STR-Ferrari 21
10 Marussia-Cosworth 0
11 Caterham-Renault 0
12 HRT-Cosworth 0


I think there are at most 129 points available, 75+54. With a 91 points gap things look good for the defense of the WCC. The bigger difference is caused of course by the relative performances of the 'second' driver.

@thanks for that link, I will take a look. I think it is good to see that there is considerable efforts by guys like you to spread the knowledge of the sport in the local languages.

Edited by H2H, 29 October 2012 - 08:16.


#3368 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:14

@thanks for that link, I will take a look. I think it is good to see that there is considerable efforts by guys like you to spread the knowledge of the sport in the local languages.


[Off-topic]
There are efforts, because there's an interest. F1 has been relatively quiet field in Bulgaria, but with Internet that much widespread it has become a hot topic. We have respectable magazines, which are very technically inclined as well. A while ago I had a permission to translate an article from Bulgarian to English regarding RB7, details inside the link.
[/Off-topic]

In regards to RB8 - it merely tries to recover as much as downforce was lost from EBD with a very-well-thought-of package, including increasing rear ride height and sacrificing top-speed in favor of relentless low-speed corners and aero balance in fast corners. In India, in particular, the sector times as well as the speed traps were clear enough.

So, Abu Dhabi forecast: same as India! (What a surprise) .. I will have to re-check and compare the tracks, as I'm going to co-host the live commentary on the TV as well, but if VET gets pole, there should be no threat for him from behind. One thing is that in race he won't be able to use his DRS, whereas the rest of field simply do not have that weapon to fight him in the qualification stage.
So, in theory, if VET wins at Abu Dhabi, he shouldn't car that much about the long straights in US or Brazil, even for his engine usage - he would already have won the title.

These are simple guestimates on my side, so let's see what happens.

Edited by kvarbanov, 29 October 2012 - 09:33.


#3369 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:20

I would be surprised if you did :) Here's the translated English version via Google Translate.

I don't go into that much details in my article, I was rather summing up all of the stuff that RBR were able to introduce in a relatively short period of time. Besides, I'm not even sure just how much people would be interested in such discussions, so I went for the simpler road. However, I will gladly discuss here, as soon as I have time, as there's a lot to be talked about.

Thanks for those pictures, the original one from AMuS with the yellow circle only was actually posted by me in another, more technical forum.

:up: Great article.

Do you write for a living for F1-based magazine?

#3370 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:25

I forgot the post one of the most important outcomes of the race:

Pos Team
1 Red Bull Racing-Renault 407
2 Ferrari 316
3 McLaren-Mercedes 306

Red Bull has the WCC in the bag. A win by Vettel in Abu Dhabi should clinch the title for Red Bull.


#3371 sv401

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:27

I think there are at most 129 points available, 75+54. With a 91 points gap things look good for the defense of the WCC. The bigger difference is caused of course by the relative performances of the 'second' driver.


A gap of 86 points (compared to Ferrari, or 87 to McLaren as they can theoretically win on countdown) after Abu Dhabi is enough for a Red Bull WCC.
Among many other possibilities, two Vettel wins (the third race can be a DNF), or one Vettel win and two third places are enough for the WDC.

#3372 sv401

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:30

Red Bull has the WCC in the bag. A win by Vettel in Abu Dhabi should clinch the title for Red Bull.


Mathematically not if Alonso and Massa finish second and third, and Webber retires (83 points gap vs. 86 needed), but nevertheless the WCC could easily be decided already in Abu Dhabi.

#3373 KirilVarbanov

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:37

:up: Great article.

Do you write for a living for F1-based magazine?

Sadly, I do not, just occasional contributions, TV guest, tech analysis and related blog - free time exercise.

Does anybody have strong info on engine usage? I couldn't find solid source.

#3374 STRFerrari4Ever

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:54

This would be another great achievement for the team, 3 WCC in a row isn't easy.

#3375 Kelateboy

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:56

Mathematically not if Alonso and Massa finish second and third, and Webber retires (83 points gap vs. 86 needed), but nevertheless the WCC could easily be decided already in Abu Dhabi.

Yes, I am fully aware of that possibility but let's get realistic.... :D

I think the chances of Webber bagging 1 pt is higher than Massa finishing on the podium in Abu Dhabi especially with both McLaren drivers looking rather quick in the last race.

#3376 ZF1

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 13:43

Check this out

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=176605

#3377 H2H

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 15:17


Interesting imput by the McLaren team.

"The performance can swing from one track to another by a couple of tenths," he explained.

"There are two or three tenths in terms of qualifying and, if you have that performance from [starting on] the front row, then you have a better chance.

"So if no one upgraded cars, there would still be a reasonable chance you can have a go at [Red Bull].

"But in terms of the overall championship it is quite different, because they need to have DNFs for people to take the title, and the chances of that happening are pretty slim."

Michael believes that the fact the F1 field is so competitive means that no team can be confident about its chances on any track.

"There is a swing from one circuit to another, and it is not to do with the developments you put on the car," he said.

"In days gone by, when you had a one second advantage over other cars, you could be confident you would not get those trends.

"But now there are no favourite tracks, so you don't know if you are going to be competitive until you get there."


This fits to some degree with what Button said before the Indian GP. It reminds me a also bit about the comments in late 2011 and 2012 when there was a McLaren statement (later retracted) that the 2011 cars were closer then it seemed with one driver making often the difference at the front. In the last races the team as a whole did a fantastic job using a relative slim advantage to the fullest with one driver and losing points with the other mostly due to an external DNF and a KERS malfunction. Red Bull should however be very careful as the performance can indeed swing according to the track and with such small margins this can change the pictures from Q3 onwards.

The Ferrari has shown lately great race pace and the McLaren did so at certain times of the GP and a better Q3 performance by Alonso and Ferrari might have made the job much more difficult for the Bulls. If you take a look at the second half of the WC the Q3 performance of the top teams has become a lot more important then in the first half. So in Abu Dhabi it will of great importance to get the race setup right and to lock out the front row. It makes it easier to maximise the result.

#3378 Zava

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:25

something is new on the exhaust, didn't understand well what they said, only that something is bigger. possibly the bulge?

#3379 H2H

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 16:14

something is new on the exhaust, didn't understand well what they said, only that something is bigger. possibly the bulge?


I noticed nothing new in that area, but just glanced at the pics which also lack some angles. Anyway it looks like a close fight, maybe McLaren didn't come out with the "track-specific advantage" without having a good look at the data. We will see.

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#3380 prty

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 17:46

So, why there's liquid in the tea tray?

Posted Image

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103937

Webber says it could be a water generator (ie: a device that turns humid air into water). Why do F1 cars have those?

Edited by prty, 02 November 2012 - 17:47.


#3381 prty

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 18:27

Another pic, the water is leaking from the tea tray itself:

Posted Image

Edited by prty, 02 November 2012 - 18:31.


#3382 sv401

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 18:48

I think it leaked from KERS (or other) cooling, which is also why Webber retired from FP2. It makes more sense than the explanation that they filled the tray with water.

Edited by sv401, 02 November 2012 - 18:49.


#3383 prty

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:06

I think it leaked from KERS (or other) cooling, which is also why Webber retired from FP2. It makes more sense than the explanation that they filled the tray with water.


What about Webber speaking of water generators.

#3384 sv401

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 19:33

What about Webber speaking of water generators.


What is a "water generator" ? :confused: Has this been translated from some other language ?

Edited by sv401, 02 November 2012 - 19:34.


#3385 showtime

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 20:03

What is a "water generator" ? :confused: Has this been translated from some other language ?


Don't know but sounds like it could be useful in some parts of Africa!

#3386 prty

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 01:01

What is a "water generator" ? :confused: Has this been translated from some other language ?


It hasn't, as English is Webber's first language, and the quote is:

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/103937
"It looks like [a] water generator or some KERS issue, it was a pain," said Webber, fourth fastest in the session

From Wikipedia, it looks like:
http://en.wikipedia....water_generator
"An atmospheric water generator (AWG), is a device that extracts water from humid ambient air"

So the question is, why to RBR is beneficial to have a water generator in their car, is this related to the water leaking from the tea tray, and is this common practice?

Edited by prty, 03 November 2012 - 01:02.


#3387 GreenMachine

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 05:16

Water cooled generator? Aren't they supposed to getting new design generators (alternators)? Mark is the guinea pig ... :rolleyes:

#3388 Disgrace

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 20:24

Posted Image

Look at the nose.

Edited by Disgrace, 03 November 2012 - 20:25.


#3389 Flamini

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 20:54

This team is amazing.

#3390 Ricardo F1

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 20:56

Go drive it yourself . . this is awesome . .

http://www.redbull.n...001243262600173

Oops never mind, nothing to see here, already posted!

Edited by Ricardo F1, 03 November 2012 - 21:29.


#3391 prty

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 21:15

Posted Image

Look at the nose.


Nothing to see here

Posted Image

#3392 One

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 23:42

Posted Image

Look at the nose.


Tuned Mass Damper!

#3393 Kingshark

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 02:22

Posted Image

Look at the nose.

In Soviet Russia, Adrian Newey flexes you.

#3394 GreenMachine

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:03

So, anything on what went wrong with the car?

I presume it was a faulty non-return valve in the tank, that would not let all the fuel move to the collector. I would guess this is an easy fix, once you have dismantled the car ):

#3395 rolf123

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:17

I thought it suspect how "cool" Vettel was about the penalty. Almost as if he didn't want anyone talking about this strange fuel irregularity...does anyone else think that Red Bull are doing something with fuel (legally OR illegaly) to gain an advantage and they wanted to divert attention from the technical aspects of it?

#3396 lbennie

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:37

Posted Image

Look at the nose.


haha, brilliant. Your move FIA.


This team is amazing.


this :clap:

#3397 krapmeister

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:41

Is that from Monaco?

#3398 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 10:43

Look at the nose.


Nice gif, thanks
Edit: And not only the nose, the movement gets stronger down through the wing it seems. The end plate looks like it will take off any time.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 04 November 2012 - 10:45.


#3399 H2H

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 11:36

I thought it suspect how "cool" Vettel was about the penalty. Almost as if he didn't want anyone talking about this strange fuel irregularity...does anyone else think that Red Bull are doing something with fuel (legally OR illegaly) to gain an advantage and they wanted to divert attention from the technical aspects of it?


Just as cool as after Korea....



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#3400 H2H

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:12

To bring some decent ideas about the fuel issue into this debate I turned to Scarbs:

@lola_rolla @ScarbsF1 LOL it could equally be the fuel hadn't drained into the right section of tank, which would support RBRs defence


Craig Scarborough ‏@ScarbsF1

Vettel had low pressure in the fuel collector, f1 fuel tanks explained here http://scarbsf1.com/...f1-fuel-system/


Fuel system

Some graphics by Scarbs:

Posted Image

The collector tank holds around 1-2 litre of fuel. There’s enough fuel to feed the engine for 30s second or more. This should be more than enough time for the cornering loads to keep fuel from reaching the final compartment, such as around long high G turns like as R130 at Suzuka. Sensors will detect if the lifter pumps are not delivering fuel, when all three show that no fuel is being delivered, the team and driver will be warned that the car is imminently going to run out of fuel. Although sensors may check the level of fuel in the tank, this will not be accurate when lapping the track or when fuel levels are very low. Additionally teams need to allow 1litre of fuel to be drained from the tank for FIA inspection at all times.


Posted Image

I will leave it here as this issue is for now something of the past and I will focus on the race.