Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 10 votes

The RB8 - The 2012 Red Bull Racing car (merged)


  • Please log in to reply
3538 replies to this topic

#3401 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,369 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:39

Marko on RTL: "We thought about switching to a ninth engine but the solution we arrived at is better." Interviewer: "Why?" Marko: "Because it's faster".
Said they changed gear ratios and wings. Unsure where they can end up, without an SC expecting 7th, but team-internal bets are anywhere between podium and 10th.

Advertisement

#3402 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 04 November 2012 - 15:44

Marko on RTL: "We thought about switching to a ninth engine but the solution we arrived at is better." Interviewer: "Why?" Marko: "Because it's faster".
Said they changed gear ratios and wings. Unsure where they can end up, without an SC expecting 7th, but team-internal bets are anywhere between podium and 10th.


Pretty good betting by the gutsy guys. The car was there, the damage was limited by the fantastic drive by Seb. Sadly Mark had a poor start and afterwards too many contacts with a shunt to round up a terrible race weekend. Lust when it seemed that Abu Dhabi is turning out well it once again became his bane.

I hope that RBR can nail the WCC in Austin and also defend the WDC. It is going to be a though fight.

#3403 plumtree

plumtree
  • Member

  • 711 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 04 November 2012 - 20:35

Adrian Newey’s F1 evolution

Adrian Newey Drives An RB6 And Leyton House March At Silverstone

Also on BBC Website (Slightly different edition. Available for Non-UK users too.)

More detailed explanations by AN and DC would have been great though, I guess those are left for MotorSport Magazine to cover. :)

#3404 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,069 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 04 November 2012 - 21:24

I hope that RBR can nail the WCC in Austin and also defend the WDC. It is going to be a though fight.

Why would you think that? Unless Ferrari do something unbelievably dramatic RBR are miles ahead at this point.


#3405 antrock

antrock
  • Member

  • 32 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 05 November 2012 - 13:43

Craig Scarborough @ScarbsF1
Odd! look how the nose tip\cameras flex when the mechanic changes the nose cone at 10s



#3406 sv401

sv401
  • Member

  • 727 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 05 November 2012 - 14:12

Unless Ferrari do something unbelievably dramatic RBR are miles ahead at this point.

Miles ahead is an exaggeration, especially considering Ferrari's rate of upgrades recently, and the last two races will be on medium and hard tyres, which suit the RB8 the least. So, Red Bull will need upgrades too, to keep up, and improve the performance on the harder tyres in particular; the young driver test this week where Ferrari will not be present may be of some help for the development. However, they only need to win one of the races, then a sixth place is enough at the other one.

Edited by sv401, 05 November 2012 - 14:13.


#3407 repete

repete
  • Member

  • 174 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:11

pretty lame coming from scarbs, the whole wing was moving up and down from the crew member dislodging the wing for removal.

#3408 EvanRainer

EvanRainer
  • Member

  • 1,364 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:29

I find interesting how everyone seems to have forgotten that Horner stated that this would be their weakest of the remaining races.

As far as being "miles ahead" yeah yeah. The point is that when you can't afford a DNF everything hangs by a thread.

#3409 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,329 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:36

pretty lame coming from scarbs, the whole wing was moving up and down from the crew member dislodging the wing for removal.


Yeah, I thought so too.

#3410 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,750 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:42

pretty lame coming from scarbs, the whole wing was moving up and down from the crew member dislodging the wing for removal.


Yeah, I thought so too.


Besides, the wing-nose cone assembly had already some structural damage from two hits.




#3411 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 05 November 2012 - 15:48

I find interesting how everyone seems to have forgotten that Horner stated that this would be their weakest of the remaining races.

As far as being "miles ahead" yeah yeah. The point is that when you can't afford a DNF everything hangs by a thread.


Indeed. Nothing has changed for the WDC it is still a battle between two great drivers and single episode can change everything.

Austin and Brazil should suit the RB8 more then Abu Dhabi, however it is impossible to predict the relative performances of cars which differ often also greatly between Quali and Race as well as tyre compound. Losts of drivers could fight for the first places.

McLaren was actually pretty good at pointing out that the advantage can be track-specific and the McLaren was arguably the fastest car under all the circumstances with Lewis doing great and Jenson quite badly on pace. The race pace of the Ferrari was as usually strong, even if not so impressive as in India.

In Austin it will be key to get the Quali right, as we have seen that even an epic drive with the greatest number of overtakes seen in that last twenty years gets you just so far even if the episodes are mostly on your side.

Edited by H2H, 05 November 2012 - 15:49.


#3412 Cacarella

Cacarella
  • Member

  • 395 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:11

pretty lame coming from scarbs, the whole wing was moving up and down from the crew member dislodging the wing for removal.



You guys may not be looking at the right spot. It took me several views to see it happening but when I saw it, it was pretty obvious.

Take a look at this HD one before it gets taken down... http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Look closely at the way the mechanics right hand grabs the side of the nose/camera pod. He exerts a bit of pressure
on that camera pod as soon as the car arrives and the yellow section of the nose cone twists a bit. The twist occurs before the
front of the car is lifted into the air. It almost looks like its foam or something.

Maybe someone else who see's it but has good computer skills can highlight the movement.


Edit: trying to be more specific.

Edited by Cacarella, 05 November 2012 - 17:13.


#3413 DCult

DCult
  • Member

  • 750 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:32

You guys may not be looking at the right spot. It took me several views to see it happening but when I saw it, it was pretty obvious.

Take a look at this HD one before it gets taken down... http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Look closely at the way the mechanics right hand grabs the side of the nose/camera pod. He exerts a bit of pressure
on that camera pod as soon as the car arrives and the yellow section of the nose cone twists a bit. The twist occurs before the
front of the car is lifted into the air. It almost looks like its foam or something.

Maybe someone else who see's it but has good computer skills can highlight the movement.


Edit: trying to be more specific.


:eek: amazing! The whole nose is flexible, also seen in the gif of the previous page.

#3414 Roonaldo

Roonaldo
  • Member

  • 57 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:38

pretty lame coming from scarbs, the whole wing was moving up and down from the crew member dislodging the wing for removal.


Have you watched it closely? It moves like its made of rubber..

If that is not flexible bodywork I have no idea what is?

Very interesting.....

#3415 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,132 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:46

That's plain obvious. It looks like chewed gum!
I think Red Bull is walking a too fine line. The hand operated ride-height adjuster should've resulted in more severe consequences, 'cause that was ugly. And now this, and that many believe there is something fishy going on with ballast as well. Would've been interesting to dissect this car completely.

Edited by race addicted, 05 November 2012 - 17:51.


#3416 Roonaldo

Roonaldo
  • Member

  • 57 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 05 November 2012 - 17:51

That's plain obvious. It looks like chewed gum!

It's also illegal, I do believe. Flexible bodywork and all..

#3417 prty

prty
  • Member

  • 5,161 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 05 November 2012 - 19:07

You guys may not be looking at the right spot. It took me several views to see it happening but when I saw it, it was pretty obvious.

Take a look at this HD one before it gets taken down... http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Look closely at the way the mechanics right hand grabs the side of the nose/camera pod. He exerts a bit of pressure
on that camera pod as soon as the car arrives and the yellow section of the nose cone twists a bit. The twist occurs before the
front of the car is lifted into the air. It almost looks like its foam or something.

Maybe someone else who see's it but has good computer skills can highlight the movement.


Edit: trying to be more specific.


It's no wonder why they have the fastest car by a mile, if they retort to cheats like that (it's designed to flex, like Ferrari's floor in Australia 2007, which is not legal even if they pass the load tests)

Edited by prty, 05 November 2012 - 19:09.


#3418 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,069 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 05 November 2012 - 20:02

You guys may not be looking at the right spot. It took me several views to see it happening but when I saw it, it was pretty obvious.

Take a look at this HD one before it gets taken down... http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Look closely at the way the mechanics right hand grabs the side of the nose/camera pod. He exerts a bit of pressure
on that camera pod as soon as the car arrives and the yellow section of the nose cone twists a bit. The twist occurs before the
front of the car is lifted into the air. It almost looks like its foam or something.

Maybe someone else who see's it but has good computer skills can highlight the movement.


Edit: trying to be more specific.

Thanks for that, I couldn't see if for the life of me until that description. Looks awfully, awfully dodgy.


#3419 hmm

hmm
  • Member

  • 161 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:43

Here is a slow motion animated gif spotted from ScarbsF1's twitter feed: http://img.imgur.com/sbeeM.gif?1

As practically every material flexes when enough force is applied I'm not so sure about it being illegal, it's not part of the wings which are allowed to flex on the the amount specified in the rules.

I suppose if it flexes at speed it should be easy to spot from pictures now that people know what to look at?

Advertisement

#3420 One

One
  • Member

  • 6,527 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 05 November 2012 - 21:52

Here is a slow motion animated gif spotted from ScarbsF1's twitter feed: http://img.imgur.com/sbeeM.gif?1

As practically every material flexes when enough force is applied I'm not so sure about it being illegal, it's not part of the wings which are allowed to flex on the the amount specified in the rules.

I suppose if it flexes at speed it should be easy to spot from pictures now that people know what to look at?


OK what is this material? Rubber !?

#3421 lbennie

lbennie
  • Member

  • 1,548 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 05 November 2012 - 23:37

wow, brilliant. :clap:

that is some epic rule "bending" from our master right there..

Adrian, i doff my hat to you sir

Edited by lbennie, 05 November 2012 - 23:38.


#3422 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,146 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:21

In post race analysis they had little time to look at it, and we have (well almost) last word on Vettel's quali debacle at AD (last word should be from Renault explaining it)

Horner: "it was probably human error", but Renault is yet to explain why... | Nov 6
http://www.inautonew...lifying-debacle

Considering how WDC battle is tight, I do appreciate Renault's difficulties. Conspirators would say - someone on Renault's staff likes Alonso perhaps just too much. :D

#3423 bogi

bogi
  • Member

  • 2,874 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:08

From scarbs twitter,

Posted Image

#3424 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:41


I wrote about the nose thing here.

Did some of you actually gave a closer look at the impact with the DRS sign? It was hit by the tyre and was thrown upwards against the left camera housing. As the impact was considerable and the attachement of the housing not designed to withstand impacts it broke rather easily. Dau has already explained how the crash structure designed to absorb is inside of the visible shell which is of course optimized for aerodynamic performance. In this case the mechanic tried to remove the nose cone in the usual fashion by pulling the left and right pod with similar power. As the DRS sign impact damaged the attachment(s) the whole left pod gave much more easily way.

Once again it is important to remind yourself that non- or lightly-stressed areas, especially high and far from the CoG are built as light as possible. The pods do not cause downforce and can be attached while investing little weight. As we have seen during the last seasons the whole nose section of quite some cars flex relative to the driver safety cell.

P.S: Loud Howards comment fits in quite neatly, saw it only now.



#3425 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:52

I never noticed it but the Gazzetta has a neat video about a brilliant RBR way to ease the setup of the car during FP. According to them during FP they use a driver-adjustable central shock-absorber which allows them to quickly get the correct ride-height and pitch. The setting gets transfered to the the usual simple shock-absorber, which can not be adjusted in a similar manner. This simple element will be raced.

Could not yet verify the story, so I will just leave it there - for now.

Edited by H2H, 06 November 2012 - 09:53.


#3426 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 09 November 2012 - 15:34


I'm a bit surprised that this made so little news, maybe it is just not a flexy! enough topic to write about. Maybe I will try sometimes a longer post about the (Red Bull RN8) suspension system it is arguably one of the most interesting topics in F1 which has seen quite a bit of evolution in the last 10 years. Arguably this development has to mostly to do with the ever greater importance of aerodynamics as a performance differential. In additon in the last two years we saw the great Pirelli rubber dice cast many times and this meant that understanding the tyres and getting them to work via the suspension has become an key element of success.



#3427 fatd

fatd
  • Member

  • 800 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:02

I'm a bit surprised that this made so little news, maybe it is just not a flexy! enough topic to write about. Maybe I will try sometimes a longer post about the (Red Bull RN8) suspension system it is arguably one of the most interesting topics in F1 which has seen quite a bit of evolution in the last 10 years. Arguably this development has to mostly to do with the ever greater importance of aerodynamics as a performance differential. In additon in the last two years we saw the great Pirelli rubber dice cast many times and this meant that understanding the tyres and getting them to work via the suspension has become an key element of success.


Will be looking forward to more of your in-depth posts in this thread, good ones I have to say :up: :D

#3428 Cacarella

Cacarella
  • Member

  • 395 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:19

I never noticed it but the Gazzetta has a neat video about a brilliant RBR way to ease the setup of the car during FP. According to them during FP they use a driver-adjustable central shock-absorber which allows them to quickly get the correct ride-height and pitch. The setting gets transfered to the the usual simple shock-absorber, which can not be adjusted in a similar manner. This simple element will be raced.

Could not yet verify the story, so I will just leave it there - for now.



I wouldn't describe myself as knowing the F1 technical rules inside and out but I would have thought something like that would be illegal?
Surely the driver is not allowed to have a tool that can adjust ride heights? Unless the components are completely removed before
qualifying?

#3429 engel

engel
  • Member

  • 5,029 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 09 November 2012 - 16:46

I wouldn't describe myself as knowing the F1 technical rules inside and out but I would have thought something like that would be illegal?
Surely the driver is not allowed to have a tool that can adjust ride heights? Unless the components are completely removed before
qualifying?


it's completely illegal, it's also not raced. It's something only used on fridays to make setup quicker

#3430 Misk

Misk
  • Member

  • 152 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 09 November 2012 - 18:29

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but it is all but a formality that at the USGP Red Bull will become only the 4th team to have won 3 WCC in a row.

Only Ferrari 75-77 and 99-04, McLaren 88-91, and Williams 92-94 have managed it before. Impressive company to be joining.



#3431 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 09 November 2012 - 19:22

Will be looking forward to more of your in-depth posts in this thread, good ones I have to say :up: :D

I'm no trained engineer as I chose finance as my profession, which is also quite interesting and complex topic and pays also well if you are in the right spot :p

Said that I just love mechanical things and with some effort it is quite easy to get a good understanding of subjects which interest you. High quality text/uni/college books are quite cheap if you earn decently (didn't seem this way back in the uni) while time is now expensive ( didn't seem this way either in the uni) and via the internet you can access an amazing amount of ressources which are linkable. When you know where to look you can be also quite efficient with your time there, while of course the forum is quite a different story. I really should only focus on tech threads.

Anyway I tried to dig up something linkable which does a good job at explaining F1 suspension, which is more efficient then me writing it all down ;)

All visible grahics belong to Scarbs if not mentioned otherwise.


Overview:

Great video about the Push-rod suspension by the guy running this excellent homepage. He certainly knows his stuff, and small slips happen during a presentation.

The video done on the Pull-rod suspension is basically and addition to the first one, so watch it later.

Caterham has an excellent video about F1 suspension, it is a pity that they don't just show the internal part, but this is F1 for you...

Note the size of the third element/heave spring - big enough to fit around a heave J-Damper. The RB8 has, as posted earlier, got a aerodynamically cleaner packaging of the rear pull-rod suspension. RBR certainly has not just Adrian, but very fine group of very smart guys.

In this original Gazzetta video we see the 'third element' in the center between the two rockers. As often it is the case with the Gazzetta the speech is often sloppy but the animations (which are not done by the presenter or even in-house?) are nice. Keep in mind that not all the suspension elements get featured!


Specific Elements which link the two rockers:


Posted Image


Anti-Roll Bar (ARB) ( Category: Spring)

Posted Image

Anti-Roll Bars by

WRC Technical ARBs - a nice view on it from the rally world.

It is also used in road cars.

Inerters, known better under the McDecoy name J-Damper. Note it isn't a Damper it is an interter! (Category: Inerter)

Posted Image

They deserve arguably an own topic, but for a start a short article about them with good graphics. Note the bit about the big heave spring covering the J-Damper and think about the bit held by Gianluca in the Caterham video.

Scarbs has an article about a Lotus Renault GP 'Fluid Inerter' which is basically a hydraulic version of the original nerter.

Last but not least a paper by the guys which initiated the inerter use in suspensions. This is actually the type of info I appreciated the most. :clap:

This element is not present on your standard road car.

Heave spring (Category: Spring)

Posted Image

Downforce presses the car down to the ground with a high force, at least times it's usual weight. This force and the need to have a stable, low ride height creates a difficult set of problems for the suspension. To deal with the imput of downforce without creating a suspension too stiff to handle its usual task, for example mantaining a good contact patch with all four tyres a third element was added quite some time ago. This third element, as it is often called today is usually a spring sitting between the rockers and designed to handle the heave.

Not used on road cars, as there downforce and it's implications do play a very marginal role.




I will leave things like interlinked rear and front suspensions for the next post.

Enjoy!

P.S: F1 Active Suspension at it's best. In some ways far more complex in some ways far less so then a modern passive one.

Edited by H2H, 12 November 2012 - 17:26.


#3432 F1Champion

F1Champion
  • Member

  • 2,920 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 09 November 2012 - 20:20

All it is, is that the camera housing sits under the nose, the twisting effect the mechanic is applying on either side of the nose on a light and hollow nose gives a bendy effect. Red Bull are just building a nose as light as possible - no different to anyone else.

#3433 BullHead

BullHead
  • Member

  • 6,419 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:50

Nice video finds there H2H. The Red Bull RB6 Haynes book is a nice easy to understand overview of the various parts required in todays' F1 cars, goes into more detail than you might at first imagine.

#3434 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,369 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:09

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but it is all but a formality that at the USGP Red Bull will become only the 4th team to have won 3 WCC in a row.

Only Ferrari 75-77 and 99-04, McLaren 88-91, and Williams 92-94 have managed it before. Impressive company to be joining.


Damon will be happy! :)

#3435 F1Champion

F1Champion
  • Member

  • 2,920 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:04

Any idea on the final updates that RB will bring to the car. Ferrari are pushing like mad, has RB got anything left?

#3436 Zava

Zava
  • Member

  • 4,740 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:17

Any idea on the final updates that RB will bring to the car. Ferrari are pushing like mad, has RB got anything left?

well, for starters, there was the lotus DRD copy tested in the YDT, but presumably it is not a passive system fed from the airbox, but from the DRS flap holes, so it is a further development of their DDRS, so maybe you could call it a TDRS. :) if so, then it is definitely designed for the last 2 races, as the DRS flap fed versions are illegal next year.

#3437 LiJu914

LiJu914
  • Member

  • 1,776 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:43

Damon will be happy! :)


WCC

#3438 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:22

After taking a look at the pics of the young driver testing it seems pretty sure that the DRD will be part of the 2013 package for quite a few teams - if the FIA doesn not step in. The DRD is of course passive or re-active and not linked with the DRS system. To avoid confusion the media really should avoid using the DRS moniker for it. Some threads on the forum pretty much showed the confusion even among more interested folks, although it really should be easy to distinguish them. For the record I do not think we will see the DRD raced this season. Lotus is the most likely candidate but there is quite a bit of risk involved even for them.

About the development race - well of course we and I know nothing about the parts RBR will bring to Austin. I wrote before that I considered Abu Dhabi favoring RBR not so much with McLaren having a good chance due to their Singapore performance, although some elements are bit different. Austin looks more friendly to RBR although a more bumpy surface might have been helped. It will be interesting to see how they get the tyres to work over the single lap in Quali and over the race distances and which setup path they will use. The straight is almost als long as the one in Korea but it from a quick look the 7th gear should be shorter. Keep in mind that gearing is obviously just a part of the setup package on which most of the work has been already done.

Edited by H2H, 11 November 2012 - 18:35.


#3439 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,025 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 11 November 2012 - 18:31

All it is, is that the camera housing sits under the nose, the twisting effect the mechanic is applying on either side of the nose on a light and hollow nose gives a bendy effect. Red Bull are just building a nose as light as possible - no different to anyone else.


Indeed, and hitting the DRS sign at 114 KM/H caused damage to the nose cone/camera housing. Someone on twitter actually (with 100% seriousness!) suggested RBR should have all the points stripped based on that gif. :lol: They are a Ferrari fan but still :drunk:

Advertisement

#3440 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 12 November 2012 - 17:29

Update the suspension post. Maybe I will do so again to make the distinction between spring, inerter and damper clearer. I will also write about the Mass damper and about the supposed use of flexy front wings/nose to act as one.

P.S: It is also no surprise that the guy who wrote this book and quite a few technical articles about said subject was of 2009 with Red Bull Technology Ltd, Milton Keynes...

Edited by H2H, 12 November 2012 - 17:33.


#3441 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:18

I have just a little time so I will just address the mass damper and focus on the rubber flexy ass damper RB8 nose.

As everybody with a decent insight in F1 technology will know aerodynamics dominate usually other aspects of F1. The evolution of the suspension design from the very first F1 cars to the modern era is actually a great way to study the influence of the increasing knowledge of the impact of (relatively) moving air. Understanding this relationship is of great importance and helps to avoid writing something stupid.


The Tuned Mass Damper:

Posted Image


Reacting to the acceleration of the suspension, the Inerter absorbs the loads that would otherwise not be controlled by the velocity sensitive conventional dampers. The Inerter predates Renaults TMD, which aimed to achieve the same effect. With the TMD a weight is suspended on spring to offset the same forces being fed into the chassis as the Inerter. Renault first raced the TMD in 2005, its discovery by Giorgio Piola around Monaco of that year; both forced a development race and an enquiry by the FIA. It was subsequently banned on what proved to be false grounds. The FIA citing a movable aerodynamic effect as the reason for its ban.

Unaware of its effect on the contact patch, I initially saw the device as a means to prevent the front wing pitching downwards when braking. The inertia of the suspended mass keeping the nose from pitching downwards during the initial braking phase. This I thought would prevent the car from being pitch sensitive. Despite a lengthy court room case, this “aero” function was upheld as the reason for the ban of the device.
Ironically the McLaren was using the Inerter at the time, and despite it being used for the same function was not banned and remains legal and in universal use to this day.


(Graphic and quote above by Scarbs)

Posted Image

Mass damper is a sealed cylinder located upright in the front of the chassis (nose cone) at a mid point between the two semi-sprung masses in conjunction with which it work. Inside the cylinder was a disc sandwiched between two coil springs and the unit was filled with damper oil. The disc, which in the case of the Renault weighed in the region of 9 kg was free to move up and down inside the cylinder except as constrained by the low rate springs and the fluid. The device was 'tuned' by either changing the clearance between the disc and the cylinder bore or by two-way adjustable valving embedded within the disc itself.


(Both the pic and the quote are from the F1 dictionary)

In short the function of the TMD was roughly the same of an Inerter and with had due to it's design and weight of ~9kg considerable inertance. It's gain were naturally greater in the front but later you had also one over the gearbox. Putting so much weight high up did the CoG no good but it was obviously seen worth the trade-off.

To bypass the snag a new mechanical modelling element was proposed by Smith [38]. The element has two terminals, and has the property that the applied force at the terminals is proportional to the relative acceleration between them. It was shown that such devices can be built in a relatively simple manner [37], [38]. A new word “inerter” was coined to describe such a device. As well as offer-ing new possibilities for “passive mechanical control” in a variety of applications, the inerter brought out strong connections with the classical theory of electrical circuit synthesis, reviving old questions and suggesting new ones.


(The quote is from this excellent paper)

It might be no coincidence that there were more then rumours that McLaren was pushing for a ban of the TMD, which would perfectly sense in hindsight considering that they had already two inerters with high inertance and the low weight of ~3kg working in their cars.


Rubber/flexy or in general RBR noses as Tuned Mass Dampers:


In the famous Webber gif you can see the nose and the wings reacting the loads caused by the front right running over big kerbs at relative low speed, at least in F1 terms. Some argue the nose is designed to act in such circumstances as mass damper. This visible outcome aka flexing poses two questions:

a) Is it Kerb-induced flex just a (positive/negative/neutral) side-effect of of a design focused on other parameters?
b) Is this designed to flex under such circumstances on purpose to work as a tuned mass damper?

If one has read through this thread and this posts he should know that b) is highly unlikely. Why?

1) The front wing/nose design is key to the aerodynamic performance of the whole car. It's properties, among them flexing and bending are shaped by aerodynamic considerations. Today and and in the past other elements have been designed to give the air the best, stiffest platform to work against and now an oscillating front wing robbing the car of downforce in a slow corner should serve the mechancical slave?

2) The mechanical gains by such behaviors are far smaller due to the adoption of Inerters which do a similar job with a smaller CoG penalty. In short why would you compromise your overall car performance for a (very) small potential gain?

Then again I'm quite sure there are people you will argue that RBR has designed a Monaco-specific TMD FW, no wonder that they are breaking the ressource agreements and that they are evil cheaters eitherway. :drunk:

Edited by H2H, 13 November 2012 - 10:24.


#3442 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 15 November 2012 - 12:05


A new video by AMuS, showing the latest tweaks on the RB8 pre-Austin.

#3443 encircled

encircled
  • Member

  • 772 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 15 November 2012 - 20:41

United States GP: Mark Webber fears weather could hurt Red Bull

"I think the form card recently, apart from Abu Dhabi, has been very strong," he said. "Qualifying was strong in Abu Dhabi, at Suzuka we had the front row and cleaned up, and the other two races [Korea and India] were very strong [for Red Bull].

"If we get back to that sort of form and you are in the hunt then victories are there.

"But temperature is very important. Layout is not very important, temperatures are. If the black things on the corners are not working then you can put the layout up your arse – it is not going to work.

"You need to have everything working together. I think the layout will not be too bad for us, but temperatures and understanding the tyres will be important.



#3444 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 16 November 2012 - 13:01


Mark states rightly the obvious. I hope the weekend won't be too cold.

#3445 encircled

encircled
  • Member

  • 772 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 16 November 2012 - 13:08

From the formula1.com website

Posted Image

So cold.

#3446 plumtree

plumtree
  • Member

  • 711 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 13:21

What do you think about the conservative tyre choice this week? They were relatively slower on the harder tyres in the last few races.

Hard+Medium combination : Malaysia, Belgium, Italy, USA, Brazil
Could heating tyres be an issue in qualifying?

#3447 encircled

encircled
  • Member

  • 772 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 16 November 2012 - 13:29

It could be an issue, as Mark is alluding to.

On the Hard+Medium combination, in Malaysia, it is hard to judge plus the exhaust solution back then is not yet optimal, while in Belgium, qualifying was bad although race pace was good.

In Italy obviously the RB8 is down on power against McLaren and Ferrari and there isn't much that can be done about it.

#3448 plumtree

plumtree
  • Member

  • 711 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 16 November 2012 - 14:21

Yeah, I didn't mean that those poor Q results are solely down to the the single factor.
Things don't look favorable for them though, contrary to some experts' predictions. Anyway, here's hoping for a trouble-free weekend. :)



FP2, http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

01 Sergio Perez 13:47:58 322.4
08 Felipe Massa 14:20:33 316.7
09 Fernando Alonso 14:05:41 316.6
14 Jenson Button 13:09:44 315.0
15 Lewis Hamilton 13:05:04 314.3
23 Sebastian Vettel 14:10:44 308.3
24 Mark Webber 13:12:55 308.0

So Abu Dhabi experiment didn't change their philosophy one bit.

Edited by plumtree, 16 November 2012 - 21:45.


#3449 H2H

H2H
  • Member

  • 2,891 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 November 2012 - 19:51


It looks pretty good for the WCC, I hope that Mark won't get punished, at least not very much.

#3450 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,791 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:41

Red Bull RB8 new rear wing in Austin

http://www.formula1....2/882/1027.html