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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#1 Alx09

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 14:51

How about a compromise? Bridgestone 2009-2010-type tyres + DRS only on tracks known for few overtaking opportunities. One side will get their requested ton of overtakes on all tracks, the other side will get the on-the-limit racing they want. But right now, come on. It's just not right. Imagine Ayrton Senna on Pirellis - now that wouldn't be something exciting to make a movie about, would it?

Autosport reporting:

The driver stood up in the Grand Prix Drivers Association meeting and asked (and I'm paraphrasing because obviously I wasn't there and have been told the tale by someone who was):"So how did we allow this to happen? When did we become circus performers just putting on a show rather than F1 drivers racing flat-out?"


[Edit: May 12 2013] I've had enough. What a joke to call this "pinnacle of motorsport".
[Edit: April 21 2013] Bahrain proves us right. Harder compounds = better racing.
[Edit: Mars 17 2013] Formula1™ officially becomes Tyremanagement1™, and I have lost interest in something that now feels slow, fake and artificial. ☑ Make overtakes non-exciting ☑ Apply delta-cruising 6 seconds off pace ☑ Drive in a queue like cyclists without overtaking, just conserving tyres ☑ Take away passion of actual racing. Congratulations, you have succeeded! Now, can we please have more pay-drivers and turn F1 it into reality show so that people who pay good money can get famous? Because it's all about marketing and brands, right? Racing, emotions, passion, human skill and engineering - what is that? And remember, be safe and watch out for those very dangerous wet puddles too, might get some water splash on the visor - can't drive in that.

[Edit: Jan 15 2013] I hope Pirelli removes the silly "cliff" from the 2013 tyres. The cliff is anti-racing, punishing those who try to race others. A gradual degradation will give us much more exciting racing, and more pushing.
[Edit: Nov 8 2012] Austin, tyres holding up, people racing. This is what it should be like.
[Edit: Sep 1 2012] "Pirelli says Spa tyre selection should allow drivers to push" http://www.autosport....php/id/102010/ - Looks like they may be listening a bit.


=======================
[Oct 9 2011]
I'd like to hear a bit what people think about the new tyres and DRS. Here are some of my thoughts.

Tyres
I personally feel that some excitement is gone this year compared to others, and the racing doesn't feel as "real" and on the limit as before. The drivers can no longer drive on the limit due to the tyres, and instead we have a boring grind where the drivers aren't going as fast as possible, but just nursing the tyres around the track. They can't really ever push it to the limit because then the tyres will be destroyed, go over "the cliff", and won't come back as they did before.

It feels for me like the driver can no longer make a difference by being a fast driver, but they can make a huge difference nursing tyres. Is that what we want racing to be all about, nursing tyres? Or, do we want drivers pushing cars to the limits, showing their talent for raw speed around a track, making a huge difference that way? How about a better balance between them two, as we had before? Bring back tyres similar to last year, but force 2 mandatory pit stops - or something similar.

DRS
This thing just kills it for me, overtaking is no longer something exciting - it's a click of a button, and an unfair advantage which the other part doesn't have. Just take a look at Turkey as an example. The drivers are usually not even trying to defend, because most times it's impossible. Increase the KERS power if anything, and let both drivers have it, so they can force the other guy to use it early etc. Rebuild the cars so they can race close to each other without problems, if needed. DRS needs to go, and the art of defending and racing needs to come back.

---

I've been following F1 for about 10 years, and I've loved every race. But 2011 has been something else, I can't say I enjoy F1 the way I did before with these 2 key things :| I miss refueling too, for the excitement during pit stops and the great tactical options it came with, but can live without it. The long-term solution isn't in making weak tyres or adding DRS. There was no need for either of them. It's been said many times before, but is worth saying again: We need more mechanical grip, less aero/wings for the cars. Drivers should be able to slipstream more. That is the real solution.

Bottomline is that we never see cars or drivers anywhere near the limit anymore, which is what F1 should be about. Or, as Lewis puts it: "It's not racing, it's just driving around".


TL;DR
Pirelli Tyres:
- Does not allow driving on the limit
- Are destroyed when racing too close behind another car. A driver can not pressure another driver into doing a mistake without ruining his own tyres.
- Holds back both car and driver to show what they really can do
- Does not allow racing through the field from the back without being destroyed
- When tyres goes off, the difference is usually too big between the one infront and behind. It results in no close racing, just a single pass.
- Makes F1 too slow
- Fewer human errors because driving slower means less risks taken
- Makes engineering aspects not related to tyre management not so important anymore
- Too much unpredictability/lottery in certain races
- (tinfoil) Allows the tyre manufacturer to manipulate race results by supplying a tiny bit better/worse tyres to certain drivers, since tyres make such big impact.
DRS:
- Removes the art of defending
- Removes long fights back and forth between drivers(racing!). It's 1 pass, and then done (tyres contributes to this as well)
- Drivers choose to wait for the DRS-straight rather than going for an exciting overtake elsewhere
- Makes F1 feel fake, click-button-to-pass
- Takes away all excitement of an overtake - you always know when and where they will pass.




Paddy Lowe:
=======================
  • "And tyre-based overtaking shenanigans doesn't really provide any extra excitement than overly-easy DRS zones, as Brawn appears to imply. Seeing one car breeze past another because their rival is on knackered/hard/rubbish tyres is hardly the most thrilling of situations either."

Pat Fry:
=======================
  • "But you cannot drive hard on the tyres otherwise they degrade. It is also a little bit that when you try and push the tyres, you tend to damage them a little bit. When you fight in traffic, you take more out of the tyres than if you are running in clear air."
    [link] (May 21, 2012)

Christian Horner:
=======================
  • "I think what we want to avoid is drivers cruising around under the performance of their car, unable to follow another car closely, otherwise it's not racing."
    [link] (March 22, 2013)
  • "These tyres are pretty marginal regarding construction and compounds. It´not fun, when a driver has to go 5sec slower than he could in order to make the tyres last. Pirelli knows that.".

Ross Brawn:
=======================
  • Brawn wants DRS reassessed
    [link] (October 12, 2011)

Martin Whitmarsh:
=======================
  • "It's quite excruciating, trying to save tyres non-stop from start to finish. It feels painful, and however bad it is for me, it must be a lot worse if you have to drive like that."
    [link] (April 15, 2013)
  • Says the balance has gone "a little bit" too far towards the tyres in F1. @jamesallenonf1

Hamilton:
=======================
  • "I can't drive any slower."
    (May 12, 2013)
  • "The life of the [soft] tyre, it's the worst I've ever experienced with bits flying off all over the place"
    [link] (April 12, 2013)
  • "I was fuel saving from an early point in the race which lost me a lot of time but generally these tyres make... it’s not fun, I didn’t enjoy the race. It’s not the same as back in the day when you had stints where you are pushing to the maximum the whole time, you had tyres that would last. Now you’re just... it’s like you have a hundred dollars and you have to spend it wisely over a period of time. It makes racing a lot different. It’s more strategic rather than pure speed racing."
    [link] (March 24, 2013)
  • "the new Pirelli tyres are a disaster"
    [link] (May 20, 2011)
  • "It's not racing, it's just driving around."

Webber:
=======================
  • "[...]it's a little bit WWF at the moment[...] Adrian Sutil tried that in Melbourne and Pirelli said that there were indications that the race fell apart for him because he tried to race people."
    [link] (April 13, 2013)
  • "The whole category is geared around tyres at the moment. Everything is around tyres. Tyres, tyres, tyre, tyres, tyres..."
    [link] (March 22, 2013)
  • "As soon as you fight, you chew the tyres up"
    [link] (October 31, 2011)
  • Mark Webber has followed in Michael Schumacher's footsteps by saying he isn't happy with this years Pirelli tyres as drivers can't push the car but are constantly driving much slower than desired to preserve their tyres: "The guys are saying, use all of your KERS on the full lap and it's like you can't drive much slower. If you push, you got to pit. [...]"
    [link] (May 16, 2012)
  • "Don't watch me, mate," said Mark Webber to a spectating Martin Brundle. "I'm only doing long runs this afternoon. It's going to be painfully slow."
  • "Some people will like to see cars passing and re-passing all the time. Nascar stock-car racing in America is founded on that. But for some who have a more purist point of view about F1 - like me - overtaking should mean more than that."
    [link] (November 17, 2011)
  • Webber concerned at number of winners
    [link] (May 17, 2012)

Schumacher:
=======================
  • Said it's not fun to drive with tyres like these - Lauda said he understands him because it's not fun for any driver to drive slow just because of the tyres.
  • Heavily critical of tyres in post race media scrums. Says racing to a delta time is not real racing. Wants words with Pirelli.
  • Compared it to driving behind the safety car, and says 90% of drivers feel the same.

Rosberg:
=======================
  • "F1 is a complete different sport these days".
  • Said that it's simply not possible to drive on the limit at any time, they have to nurse the tyres since the start of the race.
  • Confirmed by Schumacher and Rosberg that they don't drive on limit at any time of the race, sometimes they drive only at 60-70%"
  • After Spanish GP: "I dont know what is happening with this F1. It is so weird. The circumstances are now completely different." "Just tyre management really."
    [link] (May 13, 2012)

Alonso:
=======================
  • "In part because of the rules and also because of the restrictions each year in the rules.” Explained Alonso, whilst opening a new Ferrari store in Madrid. “When someone discovers something, the next year it’s banned. They’re limiting more and more every time the creativity or potential development of a car. We’re seeing more similar cars every time and it’s looking more like GP2[...]”
  • "On the other hand we can lose credibility. We cannot lose that the best teams, the best drivers, the best strategies win the races, because at the moment from the outside it seems that in every race anyone can win. It doesn't matter the talent, it doesn't matter the team, the performance - it's like a lottery. What you achieve in Formula One is not by chance. We need to make clear that if you win a race, it's because you did something better. And I don't think at the moment that this is clear for everybody."
  • Unpredictable F1 became ’strange’ in Spain
    [link] (May 14, 2012)

Vettel:
=======================
  • "It doesn't have much to do with racing, if all you're doing is going easy on the tyres. If you lose five seconds per lap just because of the tyres, that doesn't have much to do with the skill of the driver or how good is the car."
  • "Previously you could attack, but now, when it comes to fights, you're a bit in the dark. Twice today I didn't try to defend myself, because it would have just been shooting myself in the foot."
    (April 14, 2013)
  • "It doesn't look very nice I would say. I hope we have enough tyres to survive the race. Today tyre wear was pretty severe for everyone, so obviously you go around way under the [potential of the] car. It is not a lot of fun and that is how it is."
    [link] (March 22, 2013)
  • Shrugs at F1’s ’crazy’ pecking order
    [link] (May 12, 2012)

Button:
=======================
  • "I tried taking it easy on the tyres. They grain. I've tried pushing the tyres. They grain. The overall stint time is almost identical. "When the climate is a bit warmer, I think hopefully driving style will make a difference in terms of looking after the tyres and changing the degradation. At the moment, they just degrade and you don't really have any choice in the matter."
    [link] (February 17, 2013)
  • "My puncture happened after I'd already decided to pit. I got to the braking zone at Turn 14, locked up the front left and the tyre just punctured – there was a hole through it."
    (April 12, 2013)
  • "It's extreme degradation and from a tyre that's doing a [one minute] 35 in qualifying spec and then in the race after eight laps doing [one minute] 48s, it's a big difference. We're slower than GP2 cars by about five seconds."
    (April 12, 2013)
  • "It's very tricky and I don't think you will see many quick laps in the race; I think we're all going to be given a time to go to and that's it.
    (April 12, 2013)

Sutil:
=======================
  • "Whatever fuel load you have got in the car, if you race people, you are in trouble. So just don't race, put the tyre on and just try and get home."
    (April 13, 2013)

Riccardio:
=======================
  • "It's unacceptable that we are 10 seconds slower in the races compared to qualifying, just because everybody has to cruise around and save his tyres. That's not F1. We have to be able to go fast."
  • "The GP2s were faster in Qualifying than we were during long runs."
  • "We want to drive faster and not cruise around like my grandpa for ten laps in order to be able to push after that. We want to be able to push all the time."
  • "Of course we could make the current tyres last much longer, but then we´d have to drive slower than F3-cars"
    [link] (March 22, 2013)

Maldonado:
=======================
  • "You can change some things to get maybe one or two more laps from them, but not 20."

Perez:
=======================
  • "When you are in a different strategy and mainly looking after the tyres, the worst thing you can do is fight someone next to you who is on a different strategy"
    [link] (April 19, 2013)

Niki Lauda:
=======================
  • "The situation with the tires is absolutely stupid"
    [link] (March 19, 2013)
  • "Artificially creating more and more pitstops is wrong"
    [link] (March 19, 2013)

Villeneuve:
=======================
  • "I saw a few corners of action and then everybody taking care of their tyres. That's not real racing."
    [link] (April 14, 2013)

Prost:
=======================
  • "If I talk for myself I would say yes it is maybe a little bit too unpredictable"
    [link] (May 25, 2012)

Dietrich Mateschitz:
=======================
  • "Formula One no longer has anything to do with 'classic' racing. Today, it's not the fastest driver in the fastest car who wins, but the one with the optimum tyre management."
    [link] (May 1, 2013)
  • "It has become a kind of lottery to find out the window in which a tyre works."
    [link] (May 16, 2012)

[...] watching everyone coasting around with a modest and prescribed amount of lap time possible from any set of tyres, the drivers are just handcuffed as to what they can do. [...] If anyone had the speed/will to do this nowadays they would end up having to pit extremely early and tumble down the order, this is why the tyres are anti-racing.


Nigel Roebuck: (Motorsport Magazine)

"...and for another, we have tyres which increasingly play an over-important role in the scenario of a Grand Prix. That seemed to me more apparent in Malaysia than ever before, and while the glib response is always that ‘it’s the same for everyone’, my feeling is that it’s bad for everyone when paranoia about tyre wear means that the drivers are running, as Mark Webber put it, ‘at about 80 per cent’, and the team principals are thinking overwhelmingly in terms of ‘getting the cars home’. This is how Le Mans used to be in times gone by – but that was a matter of lasting for a day and a night, not an hour and a half, and it is a supreme irony that, in this era of sports car racing, for such as Audi and Toyota Le Mans – unlike a contemporary Grand Prix – is flat out all the way."


Mark Hughes: (Autosport)

Does it matter? If the 'show' is good, what's the problem? The problem is that F1 races have always been contested as close to flat-out as they possibly could be, given the technology of the era. For the first time, we have deliberately introduced technology that enforces endurance driving."


Let's finish off with a fresh 2013 quote from Paul "out-of-touch-with-reality" Hembrey:

He also rubbished any talk that Pirelli could be forced to consider changing its rubber:
"We don't see the need to," he said. "We had the most exciting Melbourne in years. Do you want us to make boring races?"

Melbourne 2013 being the clearly most boring Melbourne race since regulation changes in 2009 - I don't think your argument holds up very well mate. You are making the races boring, fake and artificial. How about actually listening to the criticism instead of shrugging it off, ignoring voiced concerns from many of the best engineers and drivers in this and previous eras?

"To be honest it was only one critic really. Everyone else came and said they don't know what they [Red Bull] were talking about."

Looks like one critic above there to me, Hembrey.

Edited by Alx09, 12 May 2013 - 14:14.


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#2 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 15:38

I've probably enjoyed F1 races themselves a lot more than I have for years, maybe since 2003-2004ish. Perhaps the overall product's got worse, but I'd point the finger at things like frozen engine development, strange aerodynamic rules, boring circuits, domination by three teams.

Don't see why smooth drivers shouldn't be favoured with current tyre spec. After all, they were disfavoured with the old one. ;)

Agree with what you say about DRS. But rebuilding the whole designs to work a different way is no easy thing to do. And if we can stop fetishising overtaking, and start thinking more about great driving, perhaps that would be a good thing. Listening to some of Lewis Hamilton's post-race comments this season, he seems to define what he is as a racing driver, as how daring and effective an overtaker he is. Perhaps that's not such a big issue these days, and perhaps that's beginning to show him up.

Edited by Risil, 09 October 2011 - 15:40.


#3 King Six

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 15:42

Ideally we would have tyres that are good, fast and never degrade ever. That way drivers and cars can be pushed 100% throughout the race and then we'll see who or what is really the fastest.

Probably a physical impossibility, they tried something like that in 2005 but it didn't really work.

#4 JV97

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 15:48

To keep it brief:

Really wanted the new tyre rules and they initially started very well. But they are too fragile and there is little scope for a driver to go flat out on raceday any more. There needs to be a compound that will allow drivers to really push whilst going off in a linear fashoin along with another slower compound that would last much longer. It's getting too much of a lottery now.

No real feelings towards DRS either way. 2013 may not need it though

#5 boldhakka

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 15:51

The whole formula is artificial. Get over it.

Tyres and the DRS are the most visible, that's it. Newey and other aerodynamics folks must feel similarly about the many artificial restrictions on their freedom to design fast cars.

#6 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 15:57

Ideally we would have tyres that are good, fast and never degrade ever. That way drivers and cars can be pushed 100% throughout the race and then we'll see who or what is really the fastest.

Probably a physical impossibility, they tried something like that in 2005 but it didn't really work.


Tyres that are good, fast and don't degrade (for the sake of argument, Bridgestone 2010-spec) still require tyre management. They can only have such apparently physics-defying properties by being kept in the exact operating temperature, being set up in a certain way, getting in and out of the corners in the way that gets the most out of them. Virtually all the developments in driving/riding styles have come about as a result of changes in tyre technology.

This fact is much more obvious in MotoGP, because motorcycle racing demands much more from the rider in terms of technique, but undoubtedly it applies to F1 too, which is still top-level prototype racing.

Clearly Pirelli's tyre spec is dictated by racing regulations a lot more than has been previously the case in F1, which makes it a lot easier, and more practical, to criticise the nature of the tyres. You'd have looked extremely stupid criticising, say, the altitude at Kyalami for giving the turbos such a big advantage over normally-aspirated cars, but when the rules are set up by committees and marketing groups and tyre companies, we feel much more entitled to criticise them, and certainly our criticisms have more effect. :lol: Fundamentally though if the drivers want to race in F1, they have to race the rubber that F1's agreed it will use.

#7 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 15:58

Just remember how boring some races were last year after the only pit-stop they used to have,it just about bringing the car home,but now each 10-15 laps we have the exciment and the thrill of the pit-stop.

And Lewis problem is with the refuelling ban,himself said that many times

#8 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:00

The whole formula is artificial. Get over it.


Only partly. There's nothing in F1's rules that dictate that, say, a lighter connecting rod will make for better engine performance. That's physics, and possibly chemistry.

#9 fieraku

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:04

Don't see why smooth drivers shouldn't be favoured with current tyre spec. After all, they were disfavoured with the old one.;)

The only problem there is predetermined tire allocation,Pirelli decided not to use the Hard tire which worked fine for some.So if they want fair,then let drivers use whatever tire wherever,whenever. Might be a logistic nightmare,but............!

#10 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:11

The only problem there is predetermined tire allocation,Pirelli decided not to use the Hard tire which worked fine for some.So if they want fair,then let drivers use whatever tire wherever,whenever. Might be a logistic nightmare,but............!


This is the problem with spec tyre rules. The driver is left to the mercy of the tyre company; there's no incentive whatsoever for them to extend an olive branch and help out a good driver having problems. Again, I'm going to use some motorcycling examples: think of Toni Elias this year, he's ranged from mediocre to appalling, a man who on Michelins once beat the category's last two world champions in a fair fight. Or Kawasaki, who found that the ZX-10R they'd built and homologated for World Superbikes, was fundamentally a poor fit with the spec Pirellis introduced in 2004. With the new ZX-10 this year, they're beginning to return to the front.

But historically there's always been a lot of give and take between tyre manufacturers and race teams, that's why they used to spend whole days just testing tyres. Develop your car and your tyre company's compounds symbiotically, and you're far less likely to be catastrophically incompatible. With a spec tyre, the relationship is almost entirely one-way, which IMO makes the competition a lot less satisfying and involving. Though it also means we're unlikely to have a Ferrari-Bridgestone 2004 whitewash, or indeed an HRC-Michelin 1992 one.

#11 TeamMacca

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:18

The tyres are crap making F1 about strategy not all out speed.

I want to see drivers flat out each lap but still put a minimum amount of pit stops in place.

Look at 2010 comapred to this year when there was no DRS and we had decent tyres, it was one of the greatest seasons ever with 5 drivers fighting right till the end.

#12 nbhb

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:21

Don't we have a thread for each of this topics?

#13 fieraku

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:33

This is the problem with spec tyre rules. The driver is left to the mercy of the tyre company; there's no incentive whatsoever for them to extend an olive branch and help out a good driver having problems. Again, I'm going to use some motorcycling examples: think of Toni Elias this year, he's ranged from mediocre to appalling, a man who on Michelins once beat the category's last two world champions in a fair fight. Or Kawasaki, who found that the ZX-10R they'd built and homologated for World Superbikes, was fundamentally a poor fit with the spec Pirellis introduced in 2004. With the new ZX-10 this year, they're beginning to return to the front.

But historically there's always been a lot of give and take between tyre manufacturers and race teams, that's why they used to spend whole days just testing tyres. Develop your car and your tyre company's compounds symbiotically, and you're far less likely to be catastrophically incompatible. With a spec tyre, the relationship is almost entirely one-way, which IMO makes the competition a lot less satisfying and involving. Though it also means we're unlikely to have a Ferrari-Bridgestone 2004 whitewash, or indeed an HRC-Michelin 1992 one.

Good stuff Risil. It's clear a few drivers in F1 are suffering Elias' shortcomings all the same this season.

#14 Fastcake

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:43

The tyres are crap making F1 about strategy not all out speed.

I want to see drivers flat out each lap but still put a minimum amount of pit stops in place.

Look at 2010 comapred to this year when there was no DRS and we had decent tyres, it was one of the greatest seasons ever with 5 drivers fighting right till the end.


Drivers have never drove flat out qualifying-style for every lap off the race. In any rule period, tyres engines and fuel have had to been conserved.

Today's rules are vastly more entertaining, so that's all great for me :)

#15 JTHound

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:55

Tyres
I personally feel that some excitement is gone this year compared to others, and the racing doesn't feel as "real" and on the limit as before. The drivers can no longer drive on the limit due to the tyres, and instead we have a boring "grind" where the drivers aren't going as fast as possible, but just nursing the tyres around the track. They can't really ever push it to the limit, because then the tyres will be destroyed, go over "the cliff" and won't come back, as they did before. Plus, certain smooth drivers are profiting a lot (too much in my opinion), while others seem to be absolutely nowhere and destroyed by the tyre situation, because they can simply no longer drive as they have always done. Webber's and Lewis' driving styles seem to be most hurt by the new tyres, while Button and Vettel seem to profit the most from it.

It feels for me like the driver can no longer make a difference by being a fast driver, but they can make a huge difference nursing tyres. Is that what we want racing to be all about, nursing tyres? Or, do we want drivers pushing cars to the limits, showing their talent for raw speed around a track, making a huge difference that way? How about a better balance between them two, as we had before?


Smoothness has always been the key to going fast, since the beginning of racing. The great champions are always smooth drivers.

Drivers have never drove flat out qualifying-style for every lap off the race. In any rule period, tyres engines and fuel have had to been conserved.


Completely agree.

Edited by JTHound, 09 October 2011 - 17:00.


#16 D.M.N.

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 16:59

Regarding tyres, it's all about money. There's 6 tyre compounds. Pirelli currently take four (option, prime, inters, wet). Taking 4 tyre compounds per weekend is much more cheaper for Pirelli than to take six tyre compounds per weekend.

#17 fieraku

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 17:01

Drivers have never drove flat out qualifying-style for every lap off the race. In any rule period, tyres engines and fuel have had to been conserved.

Today's rules are vastly more entertaining, so that's all great for me :)

I don't know about every lap but in the early 00's they pounded at a 80-90 % rate. I have slight memories of JPM,Schumi and Kimi pushing like hell.

And the problem with Pirelli is they lose their optimal performance in 3-4 laps,we're not asking for tires that last 50 laps but ones that if they last 15 they have grip for all 15,and if a smooth driver wants to take them to 20 well good on him.

Edited by fieraku, 09 October 2011 - 17:03.


#18 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 17:01

Regarding tyres, it's all about money. There's 6 tyre compounds. Pirelli currently take four (option, prime, inters, wet). Taking 4 tyre compounds per weekend is much more cheaper for Pirelli than to take six tyre compounds per weekend.


And because unlike during a tyre war, Pirelli can continue to cut costs up until the point where their tyres are unsafe (or uninteresting): their tyres can never be "uncompetitive".

Edited by Risil, 09 October 2011 - 17:03.


#19 fieraku

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 17:14

I actually think if you slap the SS Pirellis on Montoya's William's over a lap or two they'd catch fire.

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#20 Fastcake

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 17:21

I don't know about every lap but in the early 00's they pounded at a 80-90 % rate. I have slight memories of JPM,Schumi and Kimi pushing like hell.

Only when they had to though. When they were in front, or had at large gap of clean track, they backed off and cruised. They all pushed when they had to, and saved when they could, like every driver does.

#21 f1fastestlap

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 17:39

I would like to see the tyre compound up to Turkey to return, teams didn't like the time spent on the pits and Pirelli had to make adjustments post Turkey. Those adjustments made the races a little "artificial" coupled with the decision of not using the harder compound...

#22 King Six

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 17:45

Tyres that are good, fast and don't degrade (for the sake of argument, Bridgestone 2010-spec) still require tyre management. They can only have such apparently physics-defying properties by being kept in the exact operating temperature, being set up in a certain way, getting in and out of the corners in the way that gets the most out of them. Virtually all the developments in driving/riding styles have come about as a result of changes in tyre technology.

This fact is much more obvious in MotoGP, because motorcycle racing demands much more from the rider in terms of technique, but undoubtedly it applies to F1 too, which is still top-level prototype racing.

Clearly Pirelli's tyre spec is dictated by racing regulations a lot more than has been previously the case in F1, which makes it a lot easier, and more practical, to criticise the nature of the tyres. You'd have looked extremely stupid criticising, say, the altitude at Kyalami for giving the turbos such a big advantage over normally-aspirated cars, but when the rules are set up by committees and marketing groups and tyre companies, we feel much more entitled to criticise them, and certainly our criticisms have more effect. :lol: Fundamentally though if the drivers want to race in F1, they have to race the rubber that F1's agreed it will use.

I think you kinda missed what I was saying. Basically imagine a tyre with the performance of the super soft tyre or something, but with the longevity of I dunno, an endurance racing tyre. Something that's clearly over the limit of an F1 race. That would allow drivers to drive the nuts of the tyres but they still wouldn't run out, tyre saving would be eliminated. The Bridgestones lasted, but they wouldn't if you trashed them, they only lasted because people made them last that long. They would do it with the Pirelli too only that they can't go as long.

It's probably out of technical reach currently, but might be the next step in F1 tyre technology.

#23 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 17:51

I think you kinda missed what I was saying. Basically imagine a tyre with the performance of the super soft tyre or something, but with the longevity of I dunno, an endurance racing tyre. Something that's clearly over the limit of an F1 race. That would allow drivers to drive the nuts of the tyres but they still wouldn't run out, tyre saving would be eliminated. The Bridgestones lasted, but they wouldn't if you trashed them, they only lasted because people made them last that long. They would do it with the Pirelli too only that they can't go as long.

It's probably out of technical reach currently, but might be the next step in F1 tyre technology.


What, boring tyres which require no special skill to use? That's like saying the next step in F1 car technology is robot drivers. :)

Unless you mean going back to the 1960s, when teams used like one set of tyres for a whole season. But that would presumably also require going back to sixties power and cornering speeds, or at any rate something even slower than what lap two of a modern F1 race is currently.

Edited by Risil, 09 October 2011 - 17:51.


#24 King Six

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 17:59

What, boring tyres which require no special skill to use? That's like saying the next step in F1 car technology is robot drivers. :)

Unless you mean going back to the 1960s, when teams used like one set of tyres for a whole season. But that would presumably also require going back to sixties power and cornering speeds, or at any rate something even slower than what lap two of a modern F1 race is currently.

Well, it wouldn't be boring because there would be no boring tyre saving, drivers would be on the limit for the entire race. I don't see how that's boring.

I mean going back to 2005 but better, where drivers used one set of tyres for the entire race. Except the tyres were good, equal, fast, and the drivers didn't need to worry about tyre saving in any form whatsoever. And this is where the technology debate comes in with your last point about power and cornering, I don't think such a tyre is physically possible, but it would be the next step in F1 tyres.

The Bridgestones could last an entire race, but only with tyre saving. Hamilton doing 60 qualifying laps would ruin the tyres and it wouldn't last a race. And that's what I'm talking about, the ability to go flat out for the entire race, and to do it good and fast and not having to resort to 60's power and cornering speeds.

#25 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 18:05

Well, it wouldn't be boring because there would be no boring tyre saving, drivers would be on the limit for the entire race. I don't see how that's boring.

I mean going back to 2005 but better, where drivers used one set of tyres for the entire race. Except the tyres were good, equal, fast, and the drivers didn't need to worry about tyre saving in any form whatsoever. And this is where the technology debate comes in with your last point about power and cornering, I don't think such a tyre is physically possible, but it would be the next step in F1 tyres.

The Bridgestones could last an entire race, but only with tyre saving. Hamilton doing 60 qualifying laps would ruin the tyres and it wouldn't last a race. And that's what I'm talking about, the ability to go flat out for the entire race, and to do it good and fast and not having to resort to 60's power and cornering speeds.


I believe a race like that would just (just! ;) ) be drivers on the ragged edge, keeping even/slightly extending gaps to each other in qualifying order until the flag. Maybe the occasional mistake would liven things up. Something like MotoGP in the last few years: absolutely spectacular if you're only interested in watching the best riders in the world do their thing in isolation on very cool motorcycles, but without much of the drama and spectacle that makes the sporting event.

The best races between 1998 and 2010 (and quite a few before then) were almost invariably wet-dry ones, where tyre management and judgement was absolutely vital. That should tell us something.

Edited by Risil, 09 October 2011 - 18:07.


#26 August

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 20:37

I think the rule of mandatory use of both tyre compounds is artificial. I'd prefer a rule that you'd have to choose one compound you use in quali and race. Also, I'd like to get the tyre war back, nowadays tires are only to prduce entertaining racing, but I'd like to set auperb tyres. And I'd like to see drivers having unlimited number of tires in quali and race. Also, I think DRS is quite artificial, its effect is so different in different tracks. If you can open your rear wing on low speed, you'll get more advantage, like in Singapore, compared to opening in high speed like in Monza. So, I'm not a fan of DRS rules but DRS would be OK for me, if you could use it whenever you want.

#27 Risil

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 20:46

I think the rule of mandatory use of both tyre compounds is artificial. I'd prefer a rule that you'd have to choose one compound you use in quali and race. Also, I'd like to get the tyre war back, nowadays tires are only to prduce entertaining racing, but I'd like to set auperb tyres. And I'd like to see drivers having unlimited number of tires in quali and race. Also, I think DRS is quite artificial, its effect is so different in different tracks. If you can open your rear wing on low speed, you'll get more advantage, like in Singapore, compared to opening in high speed like in Monza. So, I'm not a fan of DRS rules but DRS would be OK for me, if you could use it whenever you want.


Gonna need a bigger truck ;)

#28 engel

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 21:00

The tyres are fine, variance makes more intelligent drivers/teams rise to the top instead of the flatline tyres bridgestone produced. And taking care of your tyres is as integral a part of motor racing as taking care of you engine and all other parts of the car.

DRS gives a car that is faster the chance to overtake. If we had a season of drivers overtaking each other over and over for 40 laps then it'd be artificial. But we don't. The faster car has a chance to get ahead of a slower car and that's good for racing. Yes there have been a couple of races where DRS made things too easy but ... it's a new thing, zones will be tweaked for next year.

The only thing that needs tweaking IMO is perhaps adding an extra set of tyres to the Saturday allocation, to make people less prone to sitting in their garages when they should be out qualifying.

Edited by engel, 09 October 2011 - 21:01.


#29 f1fastestlap

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 21:29

The tyres are fine,


If they were fine Pirelli wouldn't be changing compounds throughout the season...
They were fine up to Turkey, after that, not so much...

#30 Bonaventura

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 21:36

If they were fine Pirelli wouldn't be changing compounds throughout the season...
They were fine up to Turkey, after that, not so much...

tyres wich only last for 10 laps are ridiculous
It's too much about tyres this season

#31 Fourjays

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 23:08

tyres wich only last for 10 laps are ridiculous
It's too much about tyres this season

+1 They need to strike a balance between 2010 and 2011 tyre wise. They use to be just right, with the harder tyre for one stoppers and the softer tyre for two or three stoppers.

I think the two compound rule should go too. It was just an attempt to enforce pitting with the never-wear-out Bridgestone's anyway. With tyres that actually degrade it is pointless and just ruins any chance for strategy variation.

#32 Kucki

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 00:52

DRS just kills F1 for me. Prior to this season I have not missed a single race since 1988, but this season I have not watched half of the races at all and in some switched the channel midway into the race when I saw another potential great battle get cut short by the stupid unfair overtaking button.

Dont get me wrong, F1 was always for a good part just a show event, a "circus", but this season with DRS the Show has completely taken over the Sport. Fake caution debris in NASCAR, artificial overtaking aids in F1,... Motorsport has become really sad for me.

#33 SpaMaster

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 03:21

DRS is definitely absurd.

Tyres are better, in that, they are lot less absurd, but still absurd. Tyres that last for only 9 laps? Fastest lap is like 7 s slower than pole lap? I can accept everything if tyres don't fall off the cliff suddenly. They should allow the drivers to go extra bit at the expense of slower pace. Here tyres just go plain kaput beyond a certain point. But I think it is mostly down to the new tyre manufacturer. They are news and their tyres are not that developed yet. Still I hope Pirelli stop the BS with their press releases, instead of accepting and moving on.

#34 Stormsky68

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 07:24

Hate them both, its artificial racing and its ruining F1



#35 marcm

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:41

I like the new regulations.

The tyres aren't at all artificial or absurd in my opinion. We simply have tyres with a higher wear rate that require the driver to manage them over a stint. It throws up several different strategies for approaching the race. The best approach varies from weekend to weekend. Sometimes the hare wins going flat out and taking several tyre stops, and other time the tortoise wins by managing his tyres and taking less stops or by being faster at the end of the stint.

Either way I can assure you within both types of strategy the drivers are pushing hard throughout the duration of the race. The end result is that we have races that remain interesting from start to finish as the different race strategies play out.

How many races have there been this year where the race was still on right down to the final laps, with someone rapidly catching the leader? Ask the same question again about the Bridgestone era?

Some of my best memories of F1 were races such as some of the battles between Senna and Mansell, where Senna will have nursed one set of tyres to the finish, where mansell having stopped was gaining at a couple of seconds a lap as the race finish closed in. Was that artificial or absurd too? The fact is that the Pirelli tyres are they same for everyone.

As for DRS, this is the one I was more sceptical about. Overall though I think it has been much better than I expected. It probably has made some passes too easy, but then it has also thrown up a whole new load of passing that is often very marginal, that certainly wouldn't have been an opportunity in the past. Overall we have just as many good quality passes or more than before DRS.

One interesting aspect of DRS though is secondary effect of negating the loss of pace when following another car. Is easy to say that without DRS, a lot of the times drivers were racing close we would have had some "proper passing", but the fact is that without the DRS they probably would never have been running close enough to eacy other to even think of passing.

I also paritcularly like that DRS has ended the whole Trulli train scenario. No longer do we see a train of cars just following each other all race. In particular, we no longer have close races ruined because one of the leaders comes out of the pits behind a car who hasn't pitted (and is running 2s per lap slower) In the past even with that kind of pace advantage you could be stuck behind them until they pit, now it rarely takes more than a lap or two for the much faster car to dispatch them and resume his battle for the lead. It opens up much bigger pit windows for the teams and thus means there is more than one way to win the race!

I hope ultimately, the TWG will make it possible for cars to run closer and thus make DRS redundant. For now though, I think overall it has a positive impact on the racing.

Reading some of the posts above it does seem many people are wearing strongly Rose tinted glasses when remembering the racing over the last 10 years. There were an awful lot of dull processional races with just a rare classics in between. This year, with few exceptions most of the races have been entertaining from start to finish.

Edited by marcm, 10 October 2011 - 08:44.


#36 Stormsky68

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:49

Funny really, the most competitive and enjoyable F1 season in recent years for me without a shaddow of a doubt was 2010

IMO there was no need for Pirelli sandpaper or drs

#37 Bonaventura

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:57

Funny really, the most competitive and enjoyable F1 season in recent years for me without a shaddow of a doubt was 2010

IMO there was no need for Pirelli sandpaper or drs

:up:

#38 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:04

Funny really, the most competitive and enjoyable F1 season in recent years for me without a shaddow of a doubt was 2010

IMO there was no need for Pirelli sandpaper or drs

And yet there were widespread complaints of boring races and lack of overtaking. You might not have felt that, but would you deny that it was a major issue?

#39 Stormsky68

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:08

And yet there were widespread complaints of boring races and lack of overtaking. You might not have felt that, but would you deny that it was a major issue?


Year after year there are some boring races, it is no coincidence year after year these are on the same tracks

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#40 mymemoryfails

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:16

I think the tyres are just ok - have to fix qualifying allocations though. Last year's Bridgestone tyres were a joke - Vettel did the whole race on same set of soft tyres minus one lap!

I don't like drs, in particular the free use in practice and quali. then drs zone in race. ditch it please

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#41 aray

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:25

strange,it was bridgestone's indestructibility that was often criticized in 2010...now people are complaining perelli's vulnerability....
i think both tyre and DRS is ok...i would also like to see a bit more tyre allocation though...
those who are nagging about 'racing should be only pushing like bull...blah,blah blah..' should try too see the other side of the coin....if all these things like tyres,pitstops,strategy are made insignificant,a car like red-bull this year would win every races...a clear better car would destroy the competitiveness before season is even half finished....if anybody prefer such scenario,then he is not a racing fan to me...

it is the responsibility of the driver to change himself according to the rules,not the other way around...

Edited by aray, 10 October 2011 - 09:26.


#42 Fourjays

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:26

Funny really, the most competitive and enjoyable F1 season in recent years for me without a shaddow of a doubt was 2010

I think exactly the same. 2011 feels a bit empty by comparison, although that might be down to it being a pretty much uncontested championship.

I'm in two minds about the DRS. Part of me thinks it is unnecessary with the Pirelli tyres. But ultimately the DRS has proven to be quite good, allowing cars to get close but not actually pass (in most cases anyway). It just needs some tweaking for next year (and no double DRS zones as one is plenty).

#43 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:31

Year after year there are some boring races, it is no coincidence year after year these are on the same tracks

Sure. But that wasn't the question.

#44 BillBald

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:40

Funny really, the most competitive and enjoyable F1 season in recent years for me without a shaddow of a doubt was 2010

IMO there was no need for Pirelli sandpaper or drs


That's because the title winner was in doubt right up until the last race.

It would have been a very boring season if Vettel had enjoyed this season's reliability, and lack of mistakes on his own part.




#45 Stormsky68

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:43

Sure. But that wasn't the question.


Yes it was. You asked if I felt something needed to be done about boring races.

My answer is don't fix what aint broke.

You think the cars were broke in 2010, and needed new 2011 tyres and drs.

I think 2010 was one of the best seasons in recent years, therefore the cars were fine*, and the solution to the problem of a handful of boring races lies elsewhere.


*EDIT before I'm taken literally as is so often the case on this forum, I believe improvements can always be made to anything and everything including the car rules. IMO tyres and drs were simply the wrong improvment.

EDIT EDIT whilst I'm in edit mode... during the first few races the tyres created lots of varying strategies, which was great. By midway in the season everyone in the top 10 was doing pretty much the same thing with tyre strategy and we were back to the status quo, except naturally agressive drivers were now shackled. Where is the value in that?

If we are going to have sandpaper tyres, then I want to see the softs fall apart in 6 laps, and really create some strategy mix up not just play pretend to have it.

Edited by Stormsky68, 10 October 2011 - 10:03.


#46 sharo

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 10:24

I think the tyres are just ok - have to fix qualifying allocations though. Last year's Bridgestone tyres were a joke - Vettel did the whole race on same set of soft tyres minus one lap!

I don't like drs, in particular the free use in practice and quali. then drs zone in race. ditch it please

mymemoryfails

Yes. I think the tyres (no matter optimal or not) and their management are sufficient enough for an interesting race.
DRS is too much artificial. Especially during the race. The defender is deprived of his right to defend with skill and master driving. He's simply doomed with some small exceptions due to random factors.

Edited by sharo, 10 October 2011 - 10:25.


#47 trogggy

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 10:28

Yes it was. You asked if I felt something needed to be done about boring races.

No, I didn't.


#48 Rinehart

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 10:34

I'm not into the DRS at all - very fake, but imo the tyres are simply brillant and a return to proper racing, where there are phases and times to go flat out and times to go as fast as possible whilst saving the tyre, a mix of raw speed, skill and strategy.

#49 Fourjays

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 10:38

Would it be possible for the DRS to be auto-disabled when within X distance of the car in front? So it doesn't complete the overtake, but just gets them close enough. For example, the DRS closes when they are within <0.1 second of the defender (0.1 might be too close, but you get the point). So they are passed the dirty air phase and in the actual slipstream.

#50 corf

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 11:07

I love the tyres - no longer boring 1 stop races.

DRS, very happy considering the current aero regs. In principal its great, on some tracks the zone has been too big and made over taking too easy, on other tracks its been a little short and hasnt really helped. A little tweaking should improve it.

DRS wouldn't be needed if the teams/FIA could agree on an aero solution that reduced dirty area - I was very hopeful that ground effect was coming back but that got canned.