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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#901 baddog

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:13

Yes, in some of the previous races (namely Bahrain and Spain) there was a problem with drivers being unable to push, even when they were on three stoppers. But yesterday?! You want to say that Hamilton wasn't racing at full throttle most of the time?

Yes I will say it. Good tyres and fuel running down and his fastest race lap was 1:17.02 and mostly much slower. for most of the race more like 1:18.5 or more. His Q3 time was 1:14.08

3-4+ seconds off.



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#902 black magic

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:14

www or thriller in manilla.

watching schumacher hound grosjean for 2 laps then go to leep to preserve his tryes. htis is not how it was with the old slicks.

imagine villineuve or peterson on these tyres. or hey any legend come to it.

great entertainment but unmemorablea the same time.

#903 slideways

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 07:14

Yep on the whole there has been a distinct lack of BIG and safety car causing accidents since the move, scratch that up as a positive I guess.

#904 pUs

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:23

Honestly, so much about that race was horrible.. yes DRS is partly to blame but the tyres.. seeing a driver doing competitive laptimes, putting up a defense for half a lap then having to pit immediately because driving faintly hard destroyed them.. or the total lack of progressive degradation.. tyres go 'fine for ages, slightly slower but fine for a while, *wham* 4 seconds a lap slower' is extremely prejudicial to good racing and depressing to watch..

When the best possible strategy is to try to plod along JUST fast enough to stay in the game, its no fun at all.


On the edge foruming, EXCELLENT :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :smoking:

#905 Snic

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:48

Honestly, so much about that race was horrible.. yes DRS is partly to blame but the tyres.. seeing a driver doing competitive laptimes, putting up a defense for half a lap then having to pit immediately because driving faintly hard destroyed.


Completely disagree. Put DRS aside because I doubt it made much difference, it was all the tyres.

I don't know if you missed the last 20 laps but Lewis set purple laps for at least 6 laps, and IIRC said after the race he still had plenty of life left in the tyres. Perez was also pushing hard on old supersoft tyres, making overtakes on Rosberg and Massa and still had enough pace to catch Alonso...

or the total lack of progressive degradation.. tyres go 'fine for ages, slightly slower but fine for a while, *wham* 4 seconds a lap slower' is extremely prejudicial to good racing and depressing to watch..


These is Alonso's lap times, with 42 being his overall fastest lap:

Stint started on lap 19
42 1:17.820
43 1:18.005
44 1:18.526
45 1:18.199
46 1:18.556
47 1:18.373
48 1:18.138
49 1:17.863
50 1:18.183
51 1:17.880
52 1:17.916
53 1:18.219 (start of degradation)
54 1:18.355
55 1:18.211
56 1:18.190
57 1:18.275
58 1:18.580
59 1:18.668
60 1:18.853
61 1:18.843
62 1:19.190
63 1:19.067
64 1:21.096
65 1:19.562
66 1:19.934
67 1:19.973
68 1:20.016
69 1:20.564
70 1:20.796


So his lap times got worse over a period of 17 laps, by over a second and a half so roughly a tenth slower per lap. He could have still pitted on lap 53 and still manage to get a podium. This is a TEAM error, and by the end he was sliding so much it's a miracle his tyres didn't blow. Like it's been said a million times before, if you leave a driver out on tyres that are too worn he will always hit a cliff and it's been the same for 50+ years in F1.

When the best possible strategy is to try to plod along JUST fast enough to stay in the game, its no fun at all.


The Canadian Grand Prix Highlights:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rix_Highlights/

Most other races your points might have made sense, but I think this post proves there seems to be an anti-Pirelli bias now where what happens on the race-track is ignored

Edited by Snic, 11 June 2012 - 08:51.


#906 Jon83

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:49

DRS was a disaster yesterday IMO.

Impossible to defend from. We saw the same last year with MSC being the main victim.

I think Hamilton would have won the race even without passing Alonso at that point but as soon as the rear-wing opened, he rocketed past. Nothing Alonso could do to defend.

Generally I haven't been too irked by the tyres but when you see a driver losing 3-5 seconds in the space of 1 lap, that isn't good IMO.

Yesterday, Hamilton deserved the win but Alonso and Vettel were very unlcuky not to be on the podium.

#907 korzeniow

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:51

DRS was a disaster yesterday IMO.

Impossible to defend from. We saw the same last year with MSC being the main victim.

I think Hamilton would have won the race even without passing Alonso at that point but as soon as the rear-wing opened, he rocketed past. Nothing Alonso could do to defend.

Generally I haven't been too irked by the tyres but when you see a driver losing 3-5 seconds in the space of 1 lap, that isn't good IMO.

Yesterday, Hamilton deserved the win but Alonso and Vettel were very unlcuky not to be on the podium.


Actually it was fearly easy to defend from DRS. Alonso's tyres were simply shot

#908 aliasj

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:54

Well, I don't know where to put my finger on the pulse. All I can say that I had always been able to understand F1 throughout the years, especially what's going on in the race, and the different situations. But this year I don't understand it any more. (Only this year). I can't make sense of it.

So can anyone tell me, who is the fastest driver in F1 at this time? and which is the fastest car right now?

#909 rhukkas

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:57

Well, I don't know where to put my finger on the pulse. All I can say that I had always been able to understand F1 throughout the years, especially what's going on in the race, and the different situations. But this year I don't understand it any more. (Only this year). I can't make sense of it.

So can anyone tell me, who is the fastest driver in F1 at this time? and which is the fastest car right now?


Well, you may have not understood F1 in the past if you are asking such a question.

No-one knows who really is the 'fastest driver', they never have.

#910 greenman

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:58

Yes I will say it. Good tyres and fuel running down and his fastest race lap was 1:17.02 and mostly much slower. for most of the race more like 1:18.5 or more. His Q3 time was 1:14.08

3-4+ seconds off.

Go to statsf1.com, pick any year where there was no refuelling (or just pick 2010), and compare fastest laps of the race with pole position time. I think you'll be surprised to find that 3 seconds (or even more) difference between a fastest lap time in the race and the pole is pretty much normal. Hamilton didn't have anything to push for in the last 10 laps when it became obvious he'll have more than enough time to pass both Alonso and Vettel, which means he didn't try to better his time. Otherwise the difference would be even smaller.
BTW, Sergio's fastest lap time was only 1,3 seconds off his quali time, which I found pretty impressive, considering he was one-stopping.

I know this still means that the drivers aren't racing at their absolute full speed, which you would like to see, but you have to blame the no-refuelling rule here more than Pirellis.

#911 Jon83

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:58

Actually it was fearly easy to defend from DRS. Alonso's tyres were simply shot


Alonso couldn't defend from Hamilton having exited the pit-laned not more than one minute before so not really sure what you are on about.

If you look at the replay, as soon as the wing opens, Hamilton rockets past. Hardly "easy"

#912 Snic

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:59

Well, I don't know where to put my finger on the pulse. All I can say that I had always been able to understand F1 throughout the years, especially what's going on in the race, and the different situations. But this year I don't understand it any more. (Only this year). I can't make sense of it.

So can anyone tell me, who is the fastest driver in F1 at this time? and which is the fastest car right now?


Why does it matter? Who's the best tennis player/ footballer on the planet right now?

The cars all have their pro's and con's depending on the track characteristics and temperature, and small set up changes can have huge effects as the cars are all so close together in qualifying

The drivers are making more of a difference this year with the teams all so similar in pace. It's good for F1 fans to be out of their comfort zones for once


Alonso couldn't defend from Hamilton having exited the pit-laned not more than one minute before so not really sure what you are on about.

If you look at the replay, as soon as the wing opens, Hamilton rockets past. Hardly "easy"


Hamilton was alongside Alonso at the hairpin before the straight, he simply played the smart game and waited for the straight. That overtake was inevitable

Edited by Snic, 11 June 2012 - 09:00.


#913 Kucki

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:02

There were so many battles during the race where I wondered how they would play out without the overtaking aids. Then a car just pressed a button and cruised by. So lame.

Edited by Kucki, 11 June 2012 - 09:02.


#914 Jon83

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:03

Why does it matter? Who's the best tennis player/ footballer on the planet right now?

The cars all have their pro's and con's depending on the track characteristics and temperature, and small set up changes can have huge effects as the cars are all so close together in qualifying

The drivers are making more of a difference this year with the teams all so similar in pace. It's good for F1 fans to be out of their comfort zones for once




Hamilton was alongside Alonso at the hairpin before the straight, he simply played the smart game and waited for the straight. That overtake was inevitable


It was a DRS pass and that isn't what DRS was meant to be for.

Again, look at the replay if you don't believe it.

#915 Giz

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:13

Don't worry Valencia next no chance of any DRS passing. You'll enjoy that.


#916 greenman

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:15

Well, I don't know where to put my finger on the pulse. All I can say that I had always been able to understand F1 throughout the years, especially what's going on in the race, and the different situations. But this year I don't understand it any more. (Only this year). I can't make sense of it.

So can anyone tell me, who is the fastest driver in F1 at this time? and which is the fastest car right now?

Well due to all the rules that are restricting the development of cars in F1, the field is very close together (as you can see in quali), which makes things like "Lotus being more gentle with their tyres in hot conditions" more obvious as the drivers are now able not only to have a "good race", but actually challenge for the podiums and even wins. Which makes things more confusing I guess. There still are some patterns in this year, and one of them is that there are three drivers who are consistently up there - Alonso, Lewis, and Vettel. Even when they had trouble, either with their quali performance (Vettel), their teams making mistakes (Hamilton), or just having a crap car (Alonso) - they were fast. Personally I would love to see these three to fight it out for the championship. But I think we can expect Webber and Rosberg to stay close, and Lotus to win at least one race - they just need to qualify good and hope for hot conditions. It's possible, maybe even in two weeks. But I don't think either of the drivers are consistent enough to challenge for the title. Top 3 in WCC is realistic though.

To me, the biggest mystery are Mercedes. Apart from Schumacher's awful luck, there's just no consistency there. I thought that they have good DRS system, but then they were great in Monaco and pretty average here, where I thought they would do great. The temperatures probably had something to do with it, but then they weren't that fast on saturday either, when the degradation wasn't an issue.

#917 Snic

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:16

It was a DRS pass and that isn't what DRS was meant to be for.

Again, look at the replay if you don't believe it.


Okay just watched back, you're right he zoomed past from nowhere. Mind he did have more KERS saved than Alonso for the straight but it was still a complete DRS overtake, strange that Rosberg in a similar position on Massa later in the race didn't have similar results.

The DRS was too long here but that's something that will be adjusted for next year. Remember last year there were 2 DRS zones and they were longer too, the FIA thought it would be short enough this time around to not play a big role, but they've misjudged it (not by much, but enough for DRS to be too big a factor in the race).

All the other tracks DRS zones have been pretty much spot-on, I think the information gathering last year was spoit due to the conditions and I'm sure it'll be shorter next year. Yes it's artificial but if they insist on having it in F1, it should be as short as possible. I'm just hoping they don't butcher Spa again with the ridiculous DRS zone on the best straight in F1.

To me, the biggest mystery are Mercedes. Apart from Schumacher's awful luck, there's just no consistency there. I thought that they have good DRS system, but then they were great in Monaco and pretty average here, where I thought they would do great. The temperatures probably had something to do with it, but then they weren't that fast on saturday either, when the degradation wasn't an issue.


Completely agree, I quite liked it when I thought their secret was the double DRS but since the convincing pole position at Monaco (of all places) I'm completely lost. I'm sure somewhere underneath the mystery is an incredibly quick car, but it might not be until next year when they unlock it's secrets & challenge for WDC

Edited by Snic, 11 June 2012 - 09:21.


#918 greenman

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:27

IMO they shouldn't mess with the length of the DRS zone, but rather work into direction of changing the rules of it (if they don't want to ditch it). Maybe something along the lines of drivers being able to use DRS in a designated area (similar to what we have now), for, let's say, one third of the race (discounting first three laps, or wet weather situation) should mean that the drivers will use it more strategically and also allow the drivers in front to defend with it. And it doesn't give the fake advantage like now.

#919 Snic

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:31

IMO they shouldn't mess with the length of the DRS zone, but rather work into direction of changing the rules of it (if they don't want to ditch it). Maybe something along the lines of drivers being able to use DRS in a designated area (similar to what we have now), for, let's say, one third of the race (discounting first three laps, or wet weather situation) should mean that the drivers will use it more strategically and also allow the drivers in front to defend with it. And it doesn't give the fake advantage like now.


Yeh, a limited number of uses would be the fairest way to do it

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#920 Neophiliac

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:40

I've been a pretty harsh Pirelli critic, but for yesterday I would give them a B+. A solid race with exactly the kind of strategic mix you would want: it was possible to get to the finish line fast by pushing hard on a 2 stop or on a nursing a 1-stop strategy. The two were very close in the end and the choice between those strategies came down to driver and car relative performance and ability to preserve tyres. Renaul and Sauber (and to some extent their drivers) were just better in managing tyres than Alonso and Vettel. At the same time, Alonso could have finished 2nd or 3rd by pitting the second time when Lewis did. He gambled a bit, the gamble did not pay off, but that's the sort of "on your feet" thinking that we want to see on the pit wall and in the cockpit. Had his tyres worked as well as Grosjean's did, Ferrari would've come out looking like geniuses.

I would even give Pirelli an "A" if it was not for marbling. This nonsense just needs to go away. I don't know how you accomplish it, but they really need to do something. Maybe tyre compounds need to be much harder, but the layer of grippy rubber needs to be much thinner - so that you get same overall lifetime but with much less rubber staying on track. These tyres are really quite like soft cheese, and drivers lay down way too much rubber each time they accelerate or brake hard.

What ruined this particular race was the DRS. On some tracks it's a godsend, but on a track like Montreal, and with the tyre situation being what it was - it was completely unnecessary and totally ruined the show. They should have DRS zone only on the start-finish straight in Canada (which is too short for DRS to matter much) to make things a bit more of a challenge. Just think of how much more fun the race would be to watch in the end if Alonso was actually able to put up a bit of a defense.



#921 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:04

Who's the best tennis player/

:up:

All tennis players can attempt to qualify for Wimbledon, and have a comparable quality racquet.

It is pointless to compare an engineering sport like F1 to this. :)

Simply, wheel to wheel racing is produced by different cars going at different speeds at different times in the race. A flat out time trial does not produce racing necessarily. Imagine lap 1: Vettel leads Hamilton by 1.5 seconds, who leads Alonso by 1 seconds who is 2 seconds ahead of Webber. Lap 70: Vettel leads Hamilton by 12 seconds, who leads Alonso by 20 seconds who is 18 seconds ahead of Webber . Chequered flag, race ends. Exciting..., really? :yawnface:

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 11 June 2012 - 11:06.


#922 Massa

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:24

They ban mobile wings for safety grounds, but the DRS is authorized... I think DRS is dangerous, last year at China, Alonso DRS was open at the corner after the long straight, at Melbourne last year Barrichello DRS was open at the wrong place too, now Schumacher DRS was stuck open. Imagine the same before the first chicane at Monza.

With Pirelli tyres, i don't think DRS is necessary. Really they should ban this.

#923 mlsnoopy

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:51

Completely disagree. Put DRS aside because I doubt it made much difference, it was all the tyres.

I don't know if you missed the last 20 laps but Lewis set purple laps for at least 6 laps, and IIRC said after the race he still had plenty of life left in the tyres. Perez was also pushing hard on old supersoft tyres, making overtakes on Rosberg and Massa and still had enough pace to catch Alonso...



These is Alonso's lap times, with 42 being his overall fastest lap:

Stint started on lap 19
42 1:17.820
43 1:18.005
44 1:18.526
45 1:18.199
46 1:18.556
47 1:18.373
48 1:18.138
49 1:17.863
50 1:18.183
51 1:17.880
52 1:17.916
53 1:18.219 (start of degradation)
54 1:18.355
55 1:18.211
56 1:18.190
57 1:18.275
58 1:18.580
59 1:18.668
60 1:18.853
61 1:18.843
62 1:19.190
63 1:19.067
64 1:21.096
65 1:19.562
66 1:19.934
67 1:19.973
68 1:20.016
69 1:20.564
70 1:20.796


So his lap times got worse over a period of 17 laps, by over a second and a half so roughly a tenth slower per lap. He could have still pitted on lap 53 and still manage to get a podium. This is a TEAM error, and by the end he was sliding so much it's a miracle his tyres didn't blow. Like it's been said a million times before, if you leave a driver out on tyres that are too worn he will always hit a cliff and it's been the same for 50+ years in F1.



The Canadian Grand Prix Highlights:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rix_Highlights/

Most other races your points might have made sense, but I think this post proves there seems to be an anti-Pirelli bias now where what happens on the race-track is ignored


How did you dicede that lap 53 is the start of degredation. To me it looks like lap 60 is when the problems start.

#924 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:07

They ban mobile wings for safety grounds, but the DRS is authorized... I think DRS is dangerous, last year at China, Alonso DRS was open at the corner after the long straight, at Melbourne last year Barrichello DRS was open at the wrong place too, now Schumacher DRS was stuck open. Imagine the same before the first chicane at Monza.


OT in this thread, but I agree with this. When DRS was discussed prior to introduction, it was always said that "the fail state is in closed position" and that it's "impossible" that the DRS is stuck in open position. This is obviously not true, and I agree that a DRS unexpectedly in open position can be very, very dangerous.

#925 chrcol

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:09

As I was watching the race in Canada, the most exciting part was when LH was told to push hard after his last pitstop. I was watching that thinking that I was watching some on-limit driving. How sad then it was to hear LH say in his interview after the race that he had plenty more up his sleeve and wasn't pushing all that hard because he knew he had a few laps to catch SV and FA and he presumably didn't want to go on the limit and suck the life out of his tyres in a couple of laps.

As LH has said. It's quali where he has his fun. The rest of the race is tyre management.


yep truly on the limit and those tryes be gone in less than half a dozen laps with degreadation after 2-3 laps.

Also ron wasnt happy as he said the tryes were hiding the fact mclaren have a good car this year.

#926 Enzoluis

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:48

I like F1 like it is today Pirelli crap tire and DRS. But I think yesterday showed that regulations about DRS should be fixed. Shunacher got pass Kobayashi(I think was him) before the hairpin. but Kobayashi got stay behind Schumacher till the DRS activation zone and overtook Schumaher with the DRS that seems unfair to me. May be DRS should be allowed when you pass at least two ( or more according the track) consecutive laps at less than 1" to avoid this.

#927 GotYoubyTheBalls

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:23

Last laps ruined by ridiculous DRS passes. Also would have been a better race without Hams DRS pass on Alonso after Alonso got passed in a slower car in the second stint.

#928 Kvothe

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:27

Ron Dennis:

There is an intention to bring harder tyres to future races!

Edited by Kvothe, 11 June 2012 - 13:27.


#929 RedWull

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 13:58

But it does illustrate a point that most people are missing here.
The overwhelming vast majority of people on this board *CANT TELL* on TV whether a driver is pushing hard or just "managing" at 95 percent.
But they hate the difference anyway.


However with tyres that can be pushed to the limit (as opposed to abused, a key difference) you know the drivers are pushing. Now they are pushing mostly in the lap or two after the tyres have fallen off the cliff and they're desperately trying to do the quickest lap time whilst keeping the car on the track as they come in for their pitstop.


Besides, sure I could not tell that LH was not pushing after his second pitstop. At the time I thought he was going hell for leather and it was exciting. But how relevant is that to significant disappointment I felt afterwards knowing that my beating heart was all a bit of a waste as he had it in his pocket all along.

#930 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:09

DRS robbed us of the usual overtakes going into the hairpin. As Schumacher demonstrated, it was utterly pointless to overtake someone there.

Canada has multiple overtaking points, but most drivers waited for the DRS zone because that is a guaranteed easy overtake. We used to see banging wheels two abreast going for the wall of champions. :(

#931 RedWull

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 14:48

What do we want from tyres? There are two key issues.

1 - Tyres should reward a driver who can drive at the very limit. Reward him for getting that judgement right. It should punish him for getting the judgement wrong and going over the limit and abusing the tyres i.e big lockups, wild power sliding etc. It should also punish those drivers for not being brave enough to seek the limit. What do I mean by that? Well, if a driver takes the safe option and drives at 8 to 9/10ths, it should punish by way of a largely reduced lap time whilst not translating into a significantly increased number of laps per stint. The problem now is that if a driver goes at 10/10ths and gets the judgement right without overdriving and abusing the tyres, he will hurt the tyres signficantly and might get say 10 laps out of them. Whilst a driver who drives at 8/10ths, though having a slower lap time, will get so much more life out of them say 30 or 40 laps, that when you account for the 3 saved pitstops compared to the driver driving at 10/10ths, the driver who is cruising is actually benefitting.

2 - The window of operation is much too narrow. Even if the teams or drivers understand the tyre, all that needs to happen to undo all their good work is an unexpected 5 deg C change in track temperature and all their good, solid, correct and deserved work is undone by pure bad luck. Whilst another team who tried, but did not correctly set the car up for the expected temperature, may simply luck onto the perfect setup due to purely good luck. That is, a team who didn't deserve it may actually benefit from getting it wrong. There is another problem. Each driver is different, they have different driving styles and setup requirements to get the best pace. With the tyres very narrow operating window requiring a specific setup to get both pace and life out of the tyres, it boxes a driver into a specific style. It's going to benefit some drivers whose natural technique is aligned with that, whilst it severely hampers another driver that has a very different style. Sure it can be argued that it is up to the driver to adapt and to a certain extent, yes drivers should be able to adapt but there's a fine line where we don't want to make it such that every driver is forced to have a particular setup and particular style to make it work. There are many analogies, but in my opinion a close one that comes to mind is say UFC/MMA fights where each fighter has his own style. The specific requirement of these Pirellis is akin to suddenly putting full boxing gloves on all the fighters and therefore significantly hindering a grappler's technique. It is no longer MMA, it becomes a different sport. Similarly, this is going away from F1 and more towards an endurance style sport.

Now to the above, the old argument that's presented is that F1 of old was always about equipment conservation because reliability was so poor that a driver going flat out was going to blow up his engine. Yes, but there are two good answers to that. One is that the poor reliability wasn't enforced, rather it was imperfect engineering by the teams not getting on top of reliability and as you can see today, there is a solution as reliability has vastly improved. Hence conservation was not by design, but instead a by-product of imperfect engineering. The second answer is that in F1 of old, drivers could certainly push for a lot longer and harder than now. The tyres could certainly take half a dozen laps of 10/10ths driving without sh*tting themselves. Of course later on during the race the driver might have to take it easy to preserve his engine, mechanicals to bring the car home. But as there was no such gimmick as DRS, a driver could go for a hard outbraking manouevre to overtake someone knowing that it's not going to mean that his tyres are going to fall off the cliff in the next two laps because of it.

Another problem with the tyre discussion is that any criticism about the tyres is being viewed in black and white and out of context. What I mean by that, is criticism of the tyres does not mean that most of us want tyres that last forever and can be abused without consequence. Certainly not. As I said in my point 1 above, the perfect tyre should reward a driver for driving at the limit whilst punishing him if he abuses them. It should be able to withstand 20 laps if driven on the very limit before grip levels fall of significantly, but if abused then sure it can fall off the cliff after a handful of laps. However it should also not be able to go for that many more laps, say 25 max, if a driver plays safe and drives well below the tyres limit. Why should a driver, who is toodling around at 8/10ths not taking any risks, be rewarded with a tyre that last 3 times as many laps compared to a driver who is driving his balls out and getting the judgement perfectly right at 10/10ths?

My 2 cents, no agenda, no driver or team favouritism, just my view based on my personal opinion of the aspects of F1 I find most enjoyable which is engineering/technical solutions/innovation and drivers pushed to the limits of car control.

#932 timmy bolt

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 15:50

Biggest problem with the current tyres is that they significantly degrade while racing behind someone. A driver has maybe 2-3 laps to pass someone before they lose their speed advantage. It is no wonder that a driver will wait for the DRS zone in this instance, they can't risk not making the overtake as it can considerably ruin their race.

More than anything, we need tyres that don't degrade significantly faster while following another car.

#933 Alx09

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:44

So, here is an attempt to sum up the main concerns raised about tyres/drs:

TL;DR
Tyres:
- Does not allow driving on the limit
- Are destroyed when racing too close behind another car. A driver can not pressure another driver into doing a mistake without ruining his own tyres.
- Holds back both car and driver to show what they really can do
- Does not allow racing through the field from the back without being destroyed
- When tyres goes off, the difference is usually too big between the one infront and behind. It results in no close racing, just a single pass.
- Makes F1 too slow
- Fewer human errors because driving slower means less risks taken
- Makes engineering aspects not related to tyre management not so important anymore
- Too much unpredictability/lottery in certain races
- (tinfoil) Allows the tyre manufacturer to manipulate race results by supplying a tiny bit better/worse tyres to certain drivers, since tyres make such big impact.
DRS:
- Removes the art of defending
- Removes long fights back and forth between drivers(racing!). It's 1 pass, and then done (tyres contributes to this as well)
- Drivers choose to wait for the DRS-straight rather than going for an exciting overtake elsewhere
- Makes F1 feel fake, click-button-to-pass
- Takes away all excitement of an overtake - you always know when and where they will pass.


What did I forget to include? Trying to make a complete list here of valid issues.

Edited by Alx09, 11 June 2012 - 16:46.


#934 Risil

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 16:54

Very nicely put together. :up: The pros, which are unpredictable racing and frequently the result only being settled in the last third of the race, are very obvious of course.

#935 muramasa

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 17:01

...

Another problem with the tyre discussion is that any criticism about the tyres is being viewed in black and white and out of context. What I mean by that, is criticism of the tyres does not mean that most of us want tyres that last forever and can be abused without consequence. Certainly not. As I said in my point 1 above, the perfect tyre should reward a driver for driving at the limit whilst punishing him if he abuses them. It should be able to withstand 20 laps if driven on the very limit before grip levels fall of significantly, but if abused then sure it can fall off the cliff after a handful of laps. However it should also not be able to go for that many more laps, say 25 max, if a driver plays safe and drives well below the tyres limit. Why should a driver, who is toodling around at 8/10ths not taking any risks, be rewarded with a tyre that last 3 times as many laps compared to a driver who is driving his balls out and getting the judgement perfectly right at 10/10ths?

because it is difficult to overtake on track with modern cars. That's why they introduced DRS and artificially degrading tyres, instead of addressing core issue that is F1 car configuration, mainly aero. As long as they keep 30 years old concept of flat/stepped bottom fitted with diffuser and huge front and rear wings and keep fiddling with cheap tricks like DRS and tweaking tyres, nothing will change.

Good points and mostly agree with u, but tyres had been developing as it should for tyres until 2010. The problem is the car.



#936 RealRacing

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 17:06

Another problem with the tyre discussion is that any criticism about the tyres is being viewed in black and white and out of context. What I mean by that, is criticism of the tyres does not mean that most of us want tyres that last forever and can be abused without consequence. Certainly not. As I said in my point 1 above, the perfect tyre should reward a driver for driving at the limit whilst punishing him if he abuses them. It should be able to withstand 20 laps if driven on the very limit before grip levels fall of significantly, but if abused then sure it can fall off the cliff after a handful of laps. However it should also not be able to go for that many more laps, say 25 max, if a driver plays safe and drives well below the tyres limit. Why should a driver, who is toodling around at 8/10ths not taking any risks, be rewarded with a tyre that last 3 times as many laps compared to a driver who is driving his balls out and getting the judgement perfectly right at 10/10ths?



Agree, I think many of the Pirelli detractors like myself, are, in many cases, even closer to the Pirelli defenders than other more radical detractors. The grey area is huge. A big part of the anti-Pirellis are in a whole different dimension: back to re-fueling and qualifying-like stints. Another part just want improvements, not only of tyres but also design and rules, but think the concept of different compounds and different strategies is fine. I, for one, believe the idea is ok, there should be different compounds (even more than now for each race) and strategies that drivers can choose to fit their driving styles or the race circumstances (poor qualifying for example). Having said that:

-The tyres should also allow someone to push 100% for the distance they were designed for.
-They should allow pushing to catch another car in front, so following another car for many laps (of course, other factors involved here as well), attacking and defending (for more than 1 try).
-They should be easier to fine-tune and have a larger operating window.
-They should degrade more consistently, no cliff.

Of course, as said, other factors are at play here (aero, compound rule, parc ferme), but if only the tyres were to be changed, that's what I would see as needed tuning.

#937 muramasa

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 17:33


abit sad to see phrases like "should allow more than 1 attack" and "shud punish drivers for locking or sliding", as those things used to be considered as default so that we didnt even need to think or talk about it. tyres that's gone with only 1 attack is really stupid, and tyres that dont get damaged by locking or sliding or going offtrack is actually impossible no matter how hard and durable it is.

It's unfortunate for F1 and racing overall that its tyres are made unnatural, the way tyre shouldnt be made.


#938 ZooL

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 17:52

I thought the tyres were better at Canada.

It's the first time I've seen a racer race an honest stint (L. Hamilton) for 20 laps and the tyres didn't disintegrate.

Alonso's tyres also did not go off the cliff, there was gradual degredation.

#939 chrcol

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:11

I think people are putting too blame on DRS and not on pirellis.

In other races when lewis has the same trye as anohter driver he has failed to overtake using DRS never mind breezing by.

In canada if he had no DRS he still would have got by both vettel and alonso with ease.

The easy overtakes were due to different aged tryes plus he also had the softer tryes on. He had a huge laptime advantage.

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#940 chrcol

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:13

I thought the tyres were better at Canada.

It's the first time I've seen a racer race an honest stint (L. Hamilton) for 20 laps and the tyres didn't disintegrate.

Alonso's tyres also did not go off the cliff, there was gradual degredation.


lewis was still driving slow, probably 1-2s of fastest pace. But alonso was driving 4-5s of fastest pace. They were off the cliff, even when alonso seemed ok he was still driving 2-3s of fastest pace.

#941 chrcol

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:18

Tyres were fine today. Try and go for a 1 stop without pushing hard all race, or go for 2 and push like a madman.

Perez and Grosjean made the 1 stop work by being lighter on the tyres all race, Vettel and Alonso failed cause it was clearly a late decision to 1 stop so they'd already pushed too hard.

Hamilton pits from the lead, comes out about 14 seconds behind them and has to hunt them down. Various tyre strategies like this are what people have been wanting to see. You can't blame Pirelli because Alonso and Vettel failed to make the tyres last when others managed it perfectly well. 2 stopping (at least for the front runners) was the faster strategy, but the tyres clearly had it in them to make a 1 stopper work as well if it was planned. The tyres today were pretty much perfect.

DRS was the worst thing today. Canada doesn't really need it, it made overtaking stupidly easy


I am confused you said you were happy with the tryes bbut you idnt like the easy voertakes, problem is the tryes were what made the overtakes easy, can you explain your logic?

in other races when lewis eg. had same tryes as othe rdriver he couldnt overtake with DRS. This race he had much better tryes hence easy overtakes.

So either you think the tryes were fine and such you liked the easy overtakes.

Or you thought the overtakes were too easy and as such the tryes were wrong.

which is it?

thanks.

#942 xAtarigeekx

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 19:33

I am confused you said you were happy with the tryes bbut you idnt like the easy voertakes, problem is the tryes were what made the overtakes easy, can you explain your logic?

in other races when lewis eg. had same tryes as othe rdriver he couldnt overtake with DRS. This race he had much better tryes hence easy overtakes.

So either you think the tryes were fine and such you liked the easy overtakes.

Or you thought the overtakes were too easy and as such the tryes were wrong.

which is it?

thanks.


DRS made the overtakes easy for everyone all race, not the tyres. Hamilton's overtakes on Vettel and Alonso were easy because he had pitted for new tyres and they hadn't. It was their choice. Hamilton having much better tyres in the race was a strategical choice that Alonso and Vettel decided not to make, so when he caught them of course he was going to have a tyre advantage. The point of the tyres isn't to make overtaking easy or hard, but to allow different strategies. Hamilton had better tyres than the other 2 as they were on different strategies because the tyres allowed different strategies.

Look at Grosjean for example. He 1 stopped and finished about 4 seconds behind Hamilton who 2 stopped. That's what the tyres should always be like. Different strategies which, come the end of the race, end up very close to each other.

Hamilton's easy overtakes at the end were due to the tyres, but it was because he had chosen to make an extra stop for new ones. The others didn't and tried to last until the end and their tyres paid the price as they'd pushed too hard earlier on.

#943 abc

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 20:40

I dont know how somebody can complain about tyres after Canada.
Drivers were brushing walls, spinning and pushing quite a lot. IMO Vettels 1:15.7 on new tyres and low fuel was the true limit and comparing other drivers effort on different fuels we can say many pushed quite hard for many laps.
Ten years ago the true racers pushed only in one inlap (if needed, sometimes cars had half minute advantage and 90% through the whole race was enough)

I would also like to know how teams are setting delta times up when they often dont understand tyres in the slightest? (genuine question).

#944 pingu666

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 21:13

I thought the tyres gave us a pretty darn good race, bunch of properly different stratagies that where fairly close at the end

#945 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 21:16

I've been very hard on Pirelli before but the balance in Canada was quite right

Good job!

#946 JV97

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 21:46

On the face of it, Pirelli gave me exactly what I'd been looking since they came in. 2 very viable strategies with the best at either making it work whilst others fell in between the 2. Some defending, some running out of tyres, other with a late charge.

But then you see Vettel and Perez going much faster than Hamilton, you realise Lewis wasn't really pushing at all. Think there's quotes where he said he had plenty in reserve? Probably smart but could also be because again, you can't sustain any period of flat out.

And it would have been more satisfying without drs. Shouldn't need it with these tyres and a track like Circuit GV.

But anyway, a more believable race from the tyre point of view. Just still left not sure what car is actually the fastest.

#947 Alx09

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:09

Pirelli to test new hard compound tyre in practice at the British Grand Prix
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/100318

#948 Rinehart

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:34

I think the biggest problem with F1 at the moment is that they have so much data.


#949 maverick69

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:40

I'm not just saying this because I'm a Hamilton fan - but Pirelli and the most of the teams/drivers got it just about right at the weekend..... albeit with a bit of "gambling" going on.

Problem is...... Do they know why? And can they replicate it?.............

#950 f1rookie

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 16:10


Pirelli to introduce fifth compound for 2013 F1
http://www.formula1o...mpound-for.html