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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#1101 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 19:42

One thing I like about these tyres they differential qualy and race performance. If you want something more in qualy, you have compromise a bit in race, and vice versa. I think that is how it should be, and this qualy pace vs race pace is what makes racing exciting.

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#1102 Sakae

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 14:10

Whitmarsh is at it again - we need more aggressive tires next years. I am begging to take deep dislike of this man, because I though he was one of the instigators of the s**t half of a season we had this year. One would think that he has enough problems already in his team to bring a car home in one piece, instead asking even for more punishment. I do not know what his priority actually is, and I am not convinced that he knows that either.

#1103 Obi Offiah

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 14:41

Whitmarsh is at it again - we need more aggressive tires next years. I am begging to take deep dislike of this man, because I though he was one of the instigators of the s**t half of a season we had this year. One would think that he has enough problems already in his team to bring a car home in one piece, instead asking even for more punishment. I do not know what his priority actually is, and I am not convinced that he knows that either.

The Autosport comments came from Sam Michael not Martin Whitmarsh.

#1104 Sakae

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 14:58

The Autosport comments came from Sam Michael not Martin Whitmarsh.

My bad; still, the idea is nuts, plain a simple. Stick to wider operating range in 2013 as it was planned (I think), and do not try to reinvent a new game. People must have suffered enough this year already how to manage the situation. For Mercedes it was a throwaway year in its entirety.

#1105 Diderlo

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 16:56

My bad; still, the idea is nuts, plain a simple. Stick to wider operating range in 2013 as it was planned (I think), and do not try to reinvent a new game. People must have suffered enough this year already how to manage the situation. For Mercedes it was a throwaway year in its entirety.


Wide operation window would be nice, but I think many viewers want to see more pit stops rather than just 1. I remember even a driver saying that we need more pit stops for the fans and I believe they want to drive more than anybody. When watching the race everyone waits for the pit stops. So for me ideal case would be tires that have wide operation window but also noticeable degradation.

#1106 Sakae

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 17:55

Wide operation window would be nice, but I think many viewers want to see more pit stops rather than just 1. I remember even a driver saying that we need more pit stops for the fans and I believe they want to drive more than anybody. When watching the race everyone waits for the pit stops. So for me ideal case would be tires that have wide operation window but also noticeable degradation.

The same guy from McLaren who is giving Pirelli an advise, wants to standardize their team on two stop race strategies, everywhere, every time, if I understand him correctly. If so, why do we need some naughty tires for that is beyond my comprehension. I think that racing can benefit when importance of tire is not at the top of the list, and degradation is pretty much uniform between cars, if you and your car are both reasonably smooth taking track in. It is not that complicated. Rate of degradation is again something else, but if McLaren wants to make it on two stoppers, there is correlation how many laps a tire must last, and be competitive at that...

Edited by Sakae, 14 December 2012 - 18:55.


#1107 F1ultimate

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 18:05

Bernie and FOM love cheese tyres because they bunch up the field and pull front runners into the tyranny of midfield drivers like Perez, Maldonado and Grosjean.

#1108 FerrariV12

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 00:26

Getting fed up with this now. The recent article on Autosport with Sam Michael talking about the Pirellis and how they need to be more 'aggressive' (i.e. - crap) makes my blood boil.

'Oh, we had some one stop races that were interesting, but only because lots of things happened, they had the potential to be boring'...or words to that effect...yeah, read that back to yourself. I wonder if the entire F1 circus will implode on itself the next time there is a so-called 'boring' race, imagine if football did that every time there was a 0-0 draw in a game.

I'd almost have more respect for those within F1 if they, like NASCAR, just gave up the illusion of being an actual interesting sport and admit that their only concern is mindless, boring 'entertainment'.

Maybe then a proper racing series with a tyre war and open technical regs and no obsession with 'overtaking' could fill the gap.

#1109 packapoo

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:56

viewers want to see more pit stops rather than just 1.


Simple. Bring back refueling. Happy now?

#1110 Boxerevo

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:29

I don't want to see more pitstops,people want more ? :confused:

Well,being a lewis fan you know,the less the better. :lol:

#1111 peroa

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:20

Meh, McLaren is its own worst enemy. They now supposedly have two tyre saving geniuses on board, so they call for aggressive tyres because they know that otherwise :well: ...
It backfired spectacularly in 2012. Let's see, as long as Whitmarsh and Michael are running the show there...


#1112 boldhakka

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:26

Does anyone know if drivers will be able to push more on 2013 Pirellis or is that not yet clearly established?

#1113 Peter Perfect

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 13:02

Wide operation window would be nice, but I think many viewers want to see more pit stops rather than just 1. I remember even a driver saying that we need more pit stops for the fans and I believe they want to drive more than anybody. When watching the race everyone waits for the pit stops. So for me ideal case would be tires that have wide operation window but also noticeable degradation.

:up:

That's my view too. I want to see variation in approaches to racing, so those that push hard but need to stop sooner and those that don't push as hard and have less stops.

#1114 Kingshark

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 01:57

After over a decade of following Formula 1, and reading various Auto Racing boards since 2006, I have came to a bold conclusion that F1 fans whine too much and will never be happy regardless of what path F1 follows.

Edited by Kingshark, 25 December 2012 - 01:57.


#1115 Alx09

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 16:25

Does anyone know if drivers will be able to push more on 2013 Pirellis or is that not yet clearly established?

If Pirelli makes the falloff gradual in a consistent curve, then people will still dare to push.

Hard tyres = Should degrade slower, but also be slower.
Soft tyres = Should degrade faster(but no cliff!), but be quicker on track.

If they build in the silly "cliff", the drivers won't dare because pushing a little bit too much can screw the whole race up.

The tyres needs to be balanced so that:
1. Pushing and driving fast and going for an additional stop is a usable tactic
2. Trying to overtake someone and put pressure should be as little punished as possible tyre-wise

Edited by Alx09, 25 December 2012 - 16:30.


#1116 EvanRainer

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 17:45

Wow, someone finally gets it instead of crying for tyres that don't degrade.

:up:

#1117 Kucki

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 20:08

After over a decade of following Formula 1, and reading various Auto Racing boards since 2006, I have came to a bold conclusion that F1 fans whine too much and will never be happy regardless of what path F1 follows.


When did F1 Fans ever asked for artificial overtaking aids?

#1118 Vepe1995

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 23:31

When did F1 Fans ever asked for artificial overtaking aids?


They didn't. They wanted more overtaking and FIA took the short-cut.

#1119 skid solo

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:49

If Pirelli makes the falloff gradual in a consistent curve, then people will still dare to push.

Hard tyres = Should degrade slower, but also be slower.
Soft tyres = Should degrade faster(but no cliff!), but be quicker on track.

If they build in the silly "cliff", the drivers won't dare because pushing a little bit too much can screw the whole race up.

The tyres needs to be balanced so that:
1. Pushing and driving fast and going for an additional stop is a usable tactic
2. Trying to overtake someone and put pressure should be as little punished as possible tyre-wise


Yes what we saw in Valencia with Hamilton nursing the tyres the whole race only to be rewarded by falling off the performance cliff which ultimately led him to try and defend his position against Maldonado and led to his retirement was horrible to watch. In my opinion that sort of crap should never be in F1.


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#1120 Boxerevo

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 20:45

If Pirelli makes the falloff gradual in a consistent curve, then people will still dare to push.

Hard tyres = Should degrade slower, but also be slower.
Soft tyres = Should degrade faster(but no cliff!), but be quicker on track.

If they build in the silly "cliff", the drivers won't dare because pushing a little bit too much can screw the whole race up.

The tyres needs to be balanced so that:
1. Pushing and driving fast and going for an additional stop is a usable tactic
2. Trying to overtake someone and put pressure should be as little punished as possible tyre-wise

Beautiful post. :up:

#1121 EvanRainer

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 21:18

Yes what we saw in Valencia with Hamilton nursing the tyres the whole race only to be rewarded by falling off the performance cliff which ultimately led him to try and defend his position against Maldonado and led to his retirement was horrible to watch. In my opinion that sort of crap should never be in F1.


Maybe he should get better at it.

#1122 skid solo

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 22:02

Maybe he should get better at it.


Way to miss the point in every sense :rolleyes:

#1123 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:48

No it shouldn't. Why should it be a part of F1? I'm still yet to hear a proper answer to this issue: I want to see the fastest drivers win. Definition of fastest? Going from A to B the quickest. Not nursing their tyres on the way around.

It needs to be interesting or nobody will care: see WRC.

Loeb pushes his car to the max always, even the "nobodies" are very skilful.

Does anybody care apart from hardcore rally fanatics? No.
Same can easily happy to F1... just remember how famous and important WRC used to be.

Hence, wisely they are proactive as time trails on 200 metres wide tilke dromes are VERY boring indeed.

#1124 Alx09

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 17:44

http://www.f1zone.ne...li-in-f1/17333/

Michael Schumacher was publicly critical of Pirelli after the Bahrain Grand Prix last year, claiming that managing tyres wasn’t in the essence of Formula One. That was a rare moment of criticism for Pirelli, so does Hembery think that a relative lack of criticism by the drivers helped Pirelli?


In an alternative universe...

Edited by Alx09, 12 January 2013 - 17:55.


#1125 BoschKurve

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 18:12

The Pirelli tires are garbage, and their prior history in F1 was that they were crap. Whenever they had other tire manufacturers to compete with, they were never the preferred number one choice by anyone.

I don't really know what Hembry thinks Pirelli is going to get out of their time in F1 because I wouldn't buy Pirellis based on their supplying F1. If anything, the only impact I could ever see Pirellis having on the consumer market is people not buying them based on the silly putty creations they have. Sure it's made the racing more exciting for those with short attention spans which seems to be the only consideration some take into account. I don't feel watching tires drop off a cliff to be all that entertaining. Like when Kimi hit the marbles in China, and his tires were just destroyed because of it, I think it's frankly pathetic to watch stuff like that happen. Should tires wear? Absolutely, but the Pirelli tires are not the answer. Sure they've created tires as they were asked, but there is very little upside for Pirelli. There is a ton of downside for them. I'd rather see tires like what were used during the Goodyear days. I also think Pirelli has too many compounds involved. Keep it simple. Outside of wet weather tires just have 3 compounds and be done with it.

#1126 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:14

^ The problem with the Goodyear comparison is that back then we as fans didn't have 1% of the information we have now. And the teams had 1% of the understanding they have now.

#1127 olliek88

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:35

I don't really know what Hembry thinks Pirelli is going to get out of their time in F1 because I wouldn't buy Pirellis based on their supplying F1. If anything, the only impact I could ever see Pirellis having on the consumer market is people not buying them based on the silly putty creations they have.


If you, or anyone, honestly believes Pirelli's road tyres have the same characteristics as their Formula One tyres you sir are, frankly, an ASSHAT.

Pirelli's approach has worked, people are talking about the tyres far more than they were during Bridgestone's control tyre era. They are putting their name out there, getting publicity and people will associate Pirelli with Formula One, the pinnacle of motorsport, thats what matters for Pirelli.

This is from the financial section of Pirellis website -

Pirelli ends the first nine months of 2012 with a strong growth in its results as compared with the previous year, despite the slowdown in the macroeconomic scenario.

Profitability was up significantly, thanks to the positive performance of Pirelli’s Premium range, as well as the reinforcement of the productive and commercial presence in rapidly developing economies and with a more favorable demand trend.


But i forgot, you obviously know better than one of the worlds top tyre manufacturers...

Edited by olliek88, 13 January 2013 - 12:47.


#1128 Rikhart

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 12:42

Rewatching the season (im up to round 8 now) it´s very apparent that the so called "golden season of 2012" was basically in reality a lottery farce. All you hear in team comms is "look after the tyres, watch the rears, omg you are posting purple sectors stop doing that". If you lucked into the sweet spot of temperature/setup then you would win, no matter what team/car you are in. You dont even know who the really fast drivers were, because everyone was too afraid to push. Can´t say I like it much, hope 2013 is better. Degradation, sure, black magic tyres, please no.

#1129 Jejking

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 20:55

Rewatching the season (im up to round 8 now) it´s very apparent that the so called "golden season of 2012" was basically in reality a lottery farce. All you hear in team comms is "look after the tyres, watch the rears, omg you are posting purple sectors stop doing that". If you lucked into the sweet spot of temperature/setup then you would win, no matter what team/car you are in. You dont even know who the really fast drivers were, because everyone was too afraid to push. Can´t say I like it much, hope 2013 is better. Degradation, sure, black magic tyres, please no.

That wasn't the case all season long but a big part of the excitement stemmed from that fact yes.

But I REALLY hope I will never witness something like Monaco 2012 AGAIN. Man that was terrible. Everybody was just cruising as slow as possible, hoping the tyres of the car in front went off. An overtake didn't matter because it would cost you your tyres and thus the race.

#1130 scheivlak

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:22

But I REALLY hope I will never witness something like Monaco 2012 AGAIN. Man that was terrible. Everybody was just cruising as slow as possible, hoping the tyres of the car in front went off. An overtake didn't matter because it would cost you your tyres and thus the race.

Nonsense. It was just Monaco. Where tyre degradation is not nearly the factor it is at other circuits BTW.....

When the level of competitiveness between the teams is this close, you can only pass there when the guy in front of you makes a mistake. I found it fascinating to see how good the real top guys of F1 were - making not a single mistake even when it started to drizzle.

#1131 Alx09

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:33

I found it fascinating to see how good the real top guys of F1 were - making not a single mistake even when it started to drizzle.


Cruising on 70% delta times makes it easier to not make mistakes, perhaps.


#1132 scheivlak

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:36

Cruising on 70% delta times makes it easier to not make mistakes, perhaps.

In Monaco nobody gives a xxxx about delta times, especially when it's raining.

#1133 PorcupineTroy

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:39

That wasn't the case all season long but a big part of the excitement stemmed from that fact yes.

But I REALLY hope I will never witness something like Monaco 2012 AGAIN. Man that was terrible. Everybody was just cruising as slow as possible, hoping the tyres of the car in front went off. An overtake didn't matter because it would cost you your tyres and thus the race.


I remember when Perez, who must have been bored and in need of some excitement, decided to start lapping one and a half seconds faster than the leading group, even though their tyres were only ~5 laps older than his.

#1134 BoschKurve

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Posted 13 January 2013 - 23:59

If you, or anyone, honestly believes Pirelli's road tyres have the same characteristics as their Formula One tyres you sir are, frankly, an ASSHAT.

Pirelli's approach has worked, people are talking about the tyres far more than they were during Bridgestone's control tyre era. They are putting their name out there, getting publicity and people will associate Pirelli with Formula One, the pinnacle of motorsport, thats what matters for Pirelli.

This is from the financial section of Pirellis website -



But i forgot, you obviously know better than one of the worlds top tyre manufacturers...


Thanks for the name calling Ollie. It's unwarranted, and unnecessary.

You missed completely what I said. It has nothing to do with having the same characteristics as the road tires. It's the appearance of poorly constructed tires that do not last that leaves an impression on people. No one said the consumer marketplace is in any shape, form, or way rational at all times.

Not everyone is talking about the Pirelli tires in a good way, and you also ignore that Pirelli tires were shit in every previous effort they made in F1. It's less obvious now because they have no competition.

Edited by BoschKurve, 14 January 2013 - 00:02.


#1135 scheivlak

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 00:01

I remember when Perez, who must have been bored and in need of some excitement, decided to start lapping one and a half seconds faster than the leading group, even though their tyres were only ~5 laps older than his.

And then his laptimes stalled, not because of tyre degradation but because it was difficult to pass the cars ahead of him (Ricciardo, Kovalainen).

#1136 BellisEndis

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:18

Thanks for the name calling Ollie. It's unwarranted, and unnecessary.

You missed completely what I said. It has nothing to do with having the same characteristics as the road tires. It's the appearance of poorly constructed tires that do not last that leaves an impression on people. No one said the consumer marketplace is in any shape, form, or way rational at all times.

Not everyone is talking about the Pirelli tires in a good way, and you also ignore that Pirelli tires were shit in every previous effort they made in F1. It's less obvious now because they have no competition.



I doubt many people outside of the "extremely keen f1 fan who posts on the internet" has the knickers in a knot about the tyres and would write off their road car line of tyres because of the "appearance" of being poorly constructed..

#1137 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:22

My post linking to my blog-post on this subject was deleted, I can only think of because it was a link to my blog rather than the article actually posted here. But it is relevant, so if this post is deleted then I would like an explanation please.

Anyway here it is:

The famous political philosopher Robert Nozick once devised a thought experiment known as the Experience Machine. The experiment consists of giving a person a choice between experiencing everyday reality, or offering them the chance to enter the Machine and experience for the rest of their lives an apparently preferable, simulated reality, where their every dream and desire is fulfilled. Although politics will always be a part of F1, political philosophy and F1 is rarely thought of as a suitable pairing. Yet, Nozick’s experiment provides a good analysis of the 2012 Formula One season, which has undoubtedly delivered entertainment and drama, but has also left a feeling of doubt in the mind; a doubt about whether this is the real F1, and if it is still attached to the history and principles that made our sport so captivating. It is a doubt is fuelled by the question of whether DRS, KERS and Pirelli tyres amount to a simulated entertainment, and if that really is preferable to a reality in which they did not exist.

The reality of pre-DRS F1 was that the 2000’s mainly consisted of monotonous races; overtaking was a rare occurrence and those who qualified in the top ten were those who generally finished the race in the top ten. When we take a look further back in time however, towards different eras and different technical regulations, we find that overtaking and its art were the markers that separated good drivers from the greats. We find that races could be characterised by protracted battles between the same two drivers, and that the fans in the armchair could be up out of their seats in celebration as an audacious manoeuvre was pulled-off after lap after lap of aggressive posturing. The reality of the present is that overtaking is now as common-place as it was in the years before F1 races slipped into a seemingly never-ending cycle of processions. Yet it is harder to become excited about a DRS-assisted pass that takes place on a straight bit of tarmac, with the defensive and offensive race-crafts of either driver rendered pointless. It is nice to know that there is the real possibility of a potential race-winner making a charge through the field, as Vettel so memorably did to clinch the title in Brazil. Yet, the presence of DRS serves to take away from the achievement when compared to other memorable charges from years past. Nozick claims that one reason people will choose not to plug into his Experience Machine is that it limits us to a man-made reality, and that there is no contact with deeper reality. In this sense, if a driver knows that they can use DRS, they will see no reason to risk an overtake before the DRS zone. Overtaking becomes a routine operation with the push of a button, and the kind of driving that captivates audiences is abandoned for the simplistic pleasure of seeing one car pass another. When compared to famous moves from the past, it barely deserves to be termed an ‘overtake’. In this way, DRS cannot be allowed to become the long-term answer to the question about how F1 should continue to remain entertaining, since it detracts from the skill of drivers that are supposedly the best in the world.

In a similar vein, 2012’s Pirelli tyres and their sensitivity to temperature contributed to seven different winners in seven races at the start of the season, and perhaps allowed for drivers that could manage their tyres better than others to showcase their talents. But the price of this Pirelli rubber is that drivers are no longer able to push their cars to the limit. The tyres had to be nurtured, not punished. For a sport that claims itself to be the fastest and most technical on the planet, the fact that drivers are neutered in their approach to races; on occasion driving 10 seconds slower than their qualifying laps and closer to GP2 pace than F1 lap records, takes something away from the competition. So too does the fact that such intricately and expensively designed cars are reduced to a seemingly pathetic reliance on rubber that could be as erratic as Pastor Maldonado’s form this season. It is certainly refreshing to be able go into races with the Murray Walker-like anticipation that literally anything can happen, but the entertainment is at the expense of sporting values. Another reason that Nozick provides to not plug into the Machine is that people want to do certain things, not just have the experiences of doing them. Pirelli tyres and DRS provide fans with the experience of exciting races, but because they are features that seem alien to the sport’s previous eras, such races are incomparable to the kinds of exciting races that took place before their introduction.

The excitement in modern F1 has been simulated for us, rather than earned. It is for this reason that technical changes are needed to eliminate the need for such simulation, but it may be the case that many are happy to simply avoid the monotonous reality of the 2000’s, and carry on with the preferable but flawed status quo.



#1138 PretentiousBread

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 08:33

Nonsense. It was just Monaco. Where tyre degradation is not nearly the factor it is at other circuits BTW.....

When the level of competitiveness between the teams is this close, you can only pass there when the guy in front of you makes a mistake. I found it fascinating to see how good the real top guys of F1 were - making not a single mistake even when it started to drizzle.


The level of naivety....why do you think it was that Kovalainen was often running at a similar pace to the leaders, or why Perez, after pitting and being near the back of the field with nothing to lose, started lapping 2-3s faster than the leaders, or why it was that in 2007 it only took them about 15 laps to catch up to the backmarkers, whereas it took about 3 times as long in 2012, despite the backmarkers being further off the pace in 2012 than they were in 2007? They were driving to a delta lap time, desperately eking out their 1 stop strategies.

The reason none of them made a mistake in the drizzle was because Webber was holding the train at such a modest pace.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 14 January 2013 - 08:45.


#1139 scheivlak

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:27

They were driving to a delta lap time, desperately eking out their 1 stop strategies.

Delta lap times make no sense when it's drizzling and nobody knows whether it will rain or it will dry out again. Tyre degradation is less as well in those circumstances.
Have a look at Webber's tyres after he crossed the finish - they still looked very good.

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#1140 Jejking

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:42

Nonsense. It was just Monaco. Where tyre degradation is not nearly the factor it is at other circuits BTW.....

When the level of competitiveness between the teams is this close, you can only pass there when the guy in front of you makes a mistake. I found it fascinating to see how good the real top guys of F1 were - making not a single mistake even when it started to drizzle.

The winning tactic in Monaco has pretty much always been to stop once and as late as possible. Tyre degradation may not be such a factor but with the Pirellis it could go from everything to nil in space of a lap, as we have seen in the past. Nobody was pushing hard. The most exceptional fact was that the train didn't make a mistake on slicks in the drizzle but that's about it. Compare the overtakes between 2011 and 2012, 16 vs 2. Edit: correction, 12. Last years Monaco edition was nonsense because the only strategy was staying out longer than everybody else if you wanted to end up with a very good position. With several drivers lapping consistently faster than the leaders, something is wrong. Maximum parade.

Delta lap times make no sense when it's drizzling and nobody knows whether it will rain or it will dry out again. Tyre degradation is less as well in those circumstances.
Have a look at Webber's tyres after he crossed the finish - they still looked very good.

Another piece of evidence the drivers weren't pushing at all. Thank you for completing the puzzle.

Edited by Jejking, 14 January 2013 - 13:20.


#1141 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 22:39

I actually liked the Pirelli tyres back in 2011, although it went overboard at the start of 2012. Still, I think criticisms against Pirelli as a company have been far too harsh. I am looking forward to their 2013 tyres which hopefully resemble the 2011 spec more.

As for DRS, I would much prefer if it was allowed to be activated whenever and wherever. So, like KERS, it is an additional aid, but one which doesn't unfairly penalize the driver in front.

#1142 Alx09

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 23:24

As for DRS, I would much prefer if it was allowed to be activated whenever and wherever.

Um, then what would be the point of DRS? Better remove it if so.

#1143 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:37

Um, then what would be the point of DRS? Better remove it if so.


Er, to reduce drag? :lol: I really like the simple idea of a flap that can give you a boost, rather than some electrical thing that is so complicated. Plus, every team's DRS effectiveness is different relative to the car, which makes it another part which they have to try to develop throughout the year. :cool:

#1144 packapoo

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:43

Er, to reduce drag? :lol: I really like the simple idea of a flap that can give you a boost, rather than some electrical thing that is so complicated. Plus, every team's DRS effectiveness is different relative to the car, which makes it another part which they have to try to develop throughout the year. :cool:


Ex-Zackery! :up:
Why not revisit a properly engineered 'F' duct.
(Only able to be activated by drivers with brains, of course!).




#1145 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 06:45

Rewatching the season (im up to round 8 now) it´s very apparent that the so called "golden season of 2012" was basically in reality a lottery farce.

Simply untrue.

The "best" cars Red Bull and Ferrari were unsorted.

Tunnel + coanda exhaust did not work on Red Bull at all (please tell me how tyres having anything to do with that!). Even Webber was beating Vettel by 10 places in some qualifying sessions, which is very unsual to say the least, certainly not going to happen when the Red Bull is handling as the team intends with an effective pseudo-EBD. The poor handling of the Ferrari, that hardly needs to be described...

McLaren threw away the season, they had the fastest car most often in the season, but stuffed up.

#1146 Alx09

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:57

I have a sad feeling this thread will become as relevant as ever this year :(

But, let's wait and see until Melbourne.

#1147 mattferg

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:09

My post linking to my blog-post on this subject was deleted, I can only think of because it was a link to my blog rather than the article actually posted here. But it is relevant, so if this post is deleted then I would like an explanation please.

Anyway here it is:


But Vettel was on inters, and as such, he didn't have DRS. As such, if you think this feat wasn't impressive, it's you who've changed, not F1.

#1148 mattferg

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 09:10

The level of naivety....why do you think it was that Kovalainen was often running at a similar pace to the leaders, or why Perez, after pitting and being near the back of the field with nothing to lose, started lapping 2-3s faster than the leaders, or why it was that in 2007 it only took them about 15 laps to catch up to the backmarkers, whereas it took about 3 times as long in 2012, despite the backmarkers being further off the pace in 2012 than they were in 2007? They were driving to a delta lap time, desperately eking out their 1 stop strategies.

The reason none of them made a mistake in the drizzle was because Webber was holding the train at such a modest pace.


Because the performance difference to the back markers in 2007 was much bigger than it is now, due to stringent regulations. Monaco is far more about the driver and his experience rather than the car, hence why Schumacher technically got pole.

#1149 olliek88

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:26

There is no such thing as a delta time in a race, driver aren not told "right, don't go quicker than a 1:25", the reason delta time as become such an in word over the last few season is because of the safety car rules, thats how the term started to become well known and used.

The driver's are driving as fast as they can, make no mistake about that, whilst driving efficiently at the same time, be it fuel saving or tyre saving, they are driving as hard as they can without being reckless, delta times in the terms some are using them in are a myth.

EDIT: And as for the Monaco thing, the front runners hard far more to lose, the punishment for going into a corner even fractionally too fast at Monaco is massive, with the on and off rain it made it impossible to know for sure how much grip there'd be at a corner so they all backed off to avoid any chances of ending up in the wall. Perez and Kovalainen had nothing to lose so could throw caution to the wind, the guys at the front couldn't.

Edited by olliek88, 24 February 2013 - 10:33.


#1150 Alx09

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:44

The driver's are driving as fast as they can, make no mistake about that, whilst driving efficiently at the same time, be it fuel saving or tyre saving

Of course they are driving as fast as they can with what the tyres allow to get the maximum out of it over a race distance. That's not rocket science, and if you think this is what people are debating then you are missing the point completely.

The "as fast as they can" part can mean, lets say, 80%, 70% due to tyres alone. It's this % of tyre influence we are discussing and it's this tyre influence on driving styles, cars, racing lines, pushing etc that many considers too high.

Edited by Alx09, 24 February 2013 - 10:53.