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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#1201 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:01

But Vettel was on inters, and as such, he didn't have DRS. As such, if you think this feat wasn't impressive, it's you who've changed, not F1.



My mistake, but the point still stands - just substitute the example for another charge through the field in the DRS era :)

Edited by Gene and Tonic, 17 March 2013 - 15:01.


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#1202 Longtimefan

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:01

Tyre managing from lap 1?

Welcome to 'Pirelli Tyre Management Series 2013'


#1203 Jejking

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:02

I don't agree. the mediums, sure. But the SS tire seemed imposible to use properly with any kind of pace in the race.

(and I'm not moaning by any means btw, my favorite driver happened to win today so I'm more than happy)

Supersofts were reasonable, but Sutil just hammered and deepfried them. That's not the way to do it. But these were the tyres to be avoided today anyway.

#1204 Lone

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:09

Tyre managing from lap 1?

Welcome to 'Pirelli Tyre Management Series 2013'

The more talented drivers seems to excel when the challenge is more than one dimensional. I think someone called it adapting. It's not a coincidence that a driver like Alonso excels no matter what tyres they use, Michelins, Bridgestones, Pirellis or even "Cheese" Pirrellis.

Edited by Lone, 17 March 2013 - 15:10.


#1205 DaddyCool

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:10

I might be the minority that still enjoys tactical battles like we've seen today, but the supersofts (and I'm guessing the softs will be too) are literally completely useless for any kind of racing.

2 laps in Q3 and pit stop after 5-6 laps? Please ditch this bull****, and use the harder compounds.

#1206 jjcale

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:15

Tyre managing from lap 1?

Welcome to 'Pirelli Tyre Management Series 2013'


This race today was a joke .... none of them were pushing for more a lap or two at a time

#1207 jjcale

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:16

The more talented drivers seems to excel when the challenge is more than one dimensional. I think someone called it adapting. It's not a coincidence that a driver like Alonso excels no matter what tyres they use, Michelins, Bridgestones, Pirellis or even "Cheese" Pirrellis.


They would also excel if they were racing monster trucks .... but it does not mean that I would want to watch.

#1208 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:17

This race today was a joke .... none of them were pushing for more a lap or two at a time


Alonso:

"It was a fantastic, fantastic race, fighting all through the race," said Alonso. "The race was action every lap and I personally enjoyed it, obviously.

(Autosport)

#1209 Skinnyguy

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:31

Get a grip guys.

Don´t like too much stops? Winner did a 2 stopper, most a 3 stopper. Nothing different to previous eras.
Don´t like big pace dropoff? Winner did stay in a small pace bracket for nearly 25 laps.
Don´t like graining? I´ll check if you were complaining about early 2000´s Michelins too.
Don´t like stops before lap 10? I´ll check if you were complaining in 2004 too.
Don´t like drivers not racing each other and being conservative wheel to wheel? Sorry but that´s not happening.
Don´t like drivers not pushing? Sorry but that´s not happening, they´re driving as fast as possible avoiding lockups, wheelspin and big slip angles.

#1210 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:32

Get a grip guys.

Don´t like too much stops? Winner did a 2 stopper, most a 3 stopper. Nothing different to previous eras.
Don´t like big pace dropoff? Winner did stay in a small pace bracket for nearly 25 laps.
Don´t like graining? I´ll check if you were complaining about early 2000´s Michelins too.
Don´t like stops before lap 10? I´ll check if you were complaining in 2004 too.
Don´t like drivers not racing each other and being conservative wheel to wheel? Sorry but that´s not happening.
Don´t like drivers not pushing? Sorry but that´s not happening, they´re driving as fast as possible avoiding lockups, wheelspin and big slip angles.


This.

#1211 Alx09

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 15:37

Look at Austin 2012 (and Hungary 2012 if you want to have a low-overtaking count curcuit). Were those boring races? Pirelli came to the races saying oh no, we brought such conservative tyres - prepare to be bored! Instead, we actually saw skilled drivers going fast, overtaking, pushing and it was awesome.

#1212 Skinnyguy

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:00

Look at Austin 2012 (and Hungary 2012 if you want to have a low-overtaking count curcuit). Were those boring races? Pirelli came to the races saying oh no, we brought such conservative tyres - prepare to be bored! Instead, we actually saw skilled drivers going fast, overtaking, pushing and it was awesome.


Hungary tyre choice was good.

Austin wasn´t. Drivers were sliding everywhere and their grip levels were ridiculously low. Drivers were not pushing at all, they were tip toeing on cars with ridiculous grip levels with tyres miles away from being working and yielding the grip levels they´re supposed to do. At some parts of the weekend it looked as if they were driving on a wet track. Race was excellent because it was the same for everyone and we had tight fights, but that tyre choice was far from a standard setting one.

#1213 iakhtar

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:10

DRS is a far bigger disaster for the sport than the Pirellis could ever be.

#1214 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:14

The more talented drivers seems to excel when the challenge is more than one dimensional. I think someone called it adapting. It's not a coincidence that a driver like Alonso excels no matter what tyres they use, Michelins, Bridgestones, Pirellis or even "Cheese" Pirrellis.

yes, alonso has won wdcs on all these brands...

#1215 boldhakka

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:22

Sakae will be pleased with this response from Paul Hembery:



Q: What requirements have Pirelli been given?
PH: Well, if we do make some changes it might produce some uncertainty at the start of the season, but as it is a long season and you are working with the best engineers in the world, over the course of the season they will find solutions to any change that we throw at them. We have seen this over the last two years. At the start of the season these changes might cause them to scratch their head a little bit – but when you arrive at midseason you can already see that they understand what they need to do to get the maximum performance for longer.


Edited by boldhakka, 17 March 2013 - 16:22.


#1216 F1Champion

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 16:56

The hards were okay but the super softs were a joke and you have to question if it is environmentally friendly to produce hundreds of super softs that last 5-6 laps. McLaren setup the car to use them for 3 laps?! To have a product last 10 miles or so is a joke.

#1217 H2H

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:05

Sakae will be pleased with this response from Paul Hembery:



Q: What requirements have Pirelli been given?
PH: Well, if we do make some changes it might produce some uncertainty at the start of the season, but as it is a long season and you are working with the best engineers in the world, over the course of the season they will find solutions to any change that we throw at them. We have seen this over the last two years. At the start of the season these changes might cause them to scratch their head a little bit – but when you arrive at midseason you can already see that they understand what they need to do to get the maximum performance for longer.


I can already hear the heads working and the numbers crunching in Milton Keynes...  ;)

#1218 pUs

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 17:59

not true, super softs worke well and were consistent at the beginning, Kimi easily did 1,33,x with them all the time...and both mercedes did as well and those were with heavy car, in later stages ss tyres would have worked even better.


But surely if you were right we should have seen at least somebody apart from Sutil in the top ten run them at the end with a nice light car? I still think the Super Softs were too much on the extreme side. There were no alternative tire strategies to be seen and it's pretty clear why.

Edited by pUs, 17 March 2013 - 18:06.


#1219 pUs

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:00

This.


That.

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#1220 SenorSjon

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:32

Funny no-one mentioned the damp tires from Pirelli. I wouldn't call them rain tires, because they are utterly useless for any wet condition. They need to driven against a SC long enough for the track to be dry enough for inters.

Kimi fell into the groove today. Let's see who Pirelli Roulette favors next week.

#1221 Sakae

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:39

Sakae will be pleased with this response from Paul Hembery:



Q: What requirements have Pirelli been given?
PH: Well, if we do make some changes it might produce some uncertainty at the start of the season, but as it is a long season and you are working with the best engineers in the world, over the course of the season they will find solutions to any change that we throw at them. We have seen this over the last two years. At the start of the season these changes might cause them to scratch their head a little bit – but when you arrive at midseason you can already see that they understand what they need to do to get the maximum performance for longer.

Nonsense, why it would please me such a pile of nonsensical gibberish? Pirelli merely is saying that team's problems are not their problem, and if team’s F16 fighter jet, costing them pretty much a 1 Bill Euros, is rendered pile of crap that runs in a crucial moment in corresponding speed of a wheel barrow, because “best engineers” employed by teams will find solution after race, fix the issue, and make car running faster at some later date.

Well, Mr. Hembery, why then create the issue for the teams in the first place, instead letting engineers spend their time more usefully, like making cars esthetically more pleasing, etc., instead wasting their time on keeping track of what are basically Pirelli’s mood swings, and spending new cash on remedial design at the cost of quality of racing? Gaps in first 2013 race are more then telling how ridiculous the situation is.

Edited by Sakae, 17 March 2013 - 18:44.


#1222 onemoresolo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:46

Get a grip guys.

Don´t like too much stops? Winner did a 2 stopper, most a 3 stopper. Nothing different to previous eras.
Don´t like big pace dropoff? Winner did stay in a small pace bracket for nearly 25 laps.
Don´t like graining? I´ll check if you were complaining about early 2000´s Michelins too.
Don´t like stops before lap 10? I´ll check if you were complaining in 2004 too.
Don´t like drivers not racing each other and being conservative wheel to wheel? Sorry but that´s not happening.
Don´t like drivers not pushing? Sorry but that´s not happening, they´re driving as fast as possible avoiding lockups, wheelspin and big slip angles.


Could not agree with this more, very well put.

#1223 pingu666

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 18:59

its odd how sutil killed his ss tyres so quickly

#1224 jj2728

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:00

What requirements have Pirelli been given?


Let's think about this, who gives Pirelli the requirements?
The rulesmakers.....
So, Pirelli is working within the parameters set out by the FIA....
As has always been the case, tyre issues in F1 are nothing new....
It could just as easily have been Goodyear, Michelin or Bridgestone amongst others incurring the wrath of some of the fan base.
Get over it and move on.

#1225 Jimisgod

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:09

Funny no-one mentioned the damp tires from Pirelli. I wouldn't call them rain tires, because they are utterly useless for any wet condition. They need to driven against a SC long enough for the track to be dry enough for inters.

Kimi fell into the groove today. Let's see who Pirelli Roulette favors next week.


Did you even watch Q1?

All the crashes happened when people hit curbs, except the one when someone hit a white line. Do that in the wet and you crash no matter what tyres.

Do you people just come on here to listen to the sound of your own whine.

India last year had tyres that lasted 100 billion laps and it was boring as **** after lap one, despite all that 'pushing' people here lust over.

We saw passes, interesting strategy, close racing and the only qualm I had with the tyres was Sutil ruining his SS very quickly. But they all knew that was coming.

#1226 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:09

Nonsense, why it would please me such a pile of nonsensical gibberish? Pirelli merely is saying that team's problems are not their problem, and if team’s F16 fighter jet, costing them pretty much a 1 Bill Euros, is rendered pile of crap that runs in a crucial moment in corresponding speed of a wheel barrow, because “best engineers” employed by teams will find solution after race, fix the issue, and make car running faster at some later date.

Well, Mr. Hembery, why then create the issue for the teams in the first place, instead letting engineers spend their time more usefully, like making cars esthetically more pleasing, etc., instead wasting their time on keeping track of what are basically Pirelli’s mood swings, and spending new cash on remedial design at the cost of quality of racing? Gaps in first 2013 race are more then telling how ridiculous the situation is.


For the love of God. You posted this same thing multiple times in several Pirelli threads, and most of the times I saw it I did your work and googled to give you copious links to quotes by Withmarsh and others asking for exactly this, from more than one year. I know that you will now try to counter this by repeating that these quotes are worth nothing and that you need to see FIA's official tender and the specs given to Pirelli, ignoring that we don't get to see any of this for anything that happens in F1.


#1227 trogggy

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 19:20

...instead letting engineers spend their time more usefully, like making cars esthetically more pleasing...

...because they just would do that, wouldn't they...
Good grief.

#1228 SenorSjon

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 20:00

Did you even watch Q1?

All the crashes happened when people hit curbs, except the one when someone hit a white line. Do that in the wet and you crash no matter what tyres.

Do you people just come on here to listen to the sound of your own whine.

India last year had tyres that lasted 100 billion laps and it was boring as **** after lap one, despite all that 'pushing' people here lust over.

We saw passes, interesting strategy, close racing and the only qualm I had with the tyres was Sutil ruining his SS very quickly. But they all knew that was coming.


I didn't. I only watched the race since I'm loosing my F1 addiction.

Haven't you watched cars behind the SC untill it's dry enough for inters? Once the inters won't suffice, the race is stopped because of parc ferme and the lacking rain tires. I'm not talking about Australia alone.

#1229 PorcupineTroy

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 22:55

I don't really know why Pirelli brought supersofts to Oz this year. In the race, they were basically a non-tyre that teams had to stick on their cars and ditch shortly after.

#1230 Diderlo

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 23:12

...because they just would do that, wouldn't they...
Good grief.


:lol: :up:
Exactly, engineers don't care about aesthetics. I can't even imagine what the cars would be like if engineers had completely free hands.

Edited by Diderlo, 17 March 2013 - 23:18.


#1231 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:57

Lack of pushing sucks. Tiptoeing around, "we don't want to hurt the tires" - WTF?

But more interestingly - I think Pirelli are just making random tires for the SS.

Everybody's tire wear was different, really different. Lewis wiped out the inside left of his front tire, down to the cord - but then Raikkonen's inside of the left was wearing? You could see the middle graining on the rear of some cars, but then the outside on others.... some on the left, some on the right, I couldn't get a pattern out of it. Felipe's front left in the middle was self-destructing, but the middle of Vettel's front left was flying apart?

Then Sutil's front left was gone in half the laps it should have made it through....? Very suddenly?

I think Pirelli are just letting the janitor mix the compounds before they cook them.


This sucks, I don't want them running around worrying about degradation. Not only that, but again - Lewis had obviously gone way past the tire's limit on the SS. What happens if someone pushes one too many laps?




#1232 jee

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 04:32

I might be the minority that still enjoys tactical battles like we've seen today, but the supersofts (and I'm guessing the softs will be too) are literally completely useless for any kind of racing.

2 laps in Q3 and pit stop after 5-6 laps? Please ditch this bull****, and use the harder compounds.


It is the fact that almost all pitted as soon as graining started on the supersofts. Only a few like Kimi and both Mercedes drivers were smart enough to stay out until graining went and stayed on track as long as the tyres were good. They profited from making the right decision and saving an extra stop.

Q + 12-15 laps sounds good enough for a supersoft tire for me.

#1233 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:29

Lack of pushing sucks. Tiptoeing around, "we don't want to hurt the tires" - WTF?

But more interestingly - I think Pirelli are just making random tires for the SS.

Everybody's tire wear was different, really different. Lewis wiped out the inside left of his front tire, down to the cord - but then Raikkonen's inside of the left was wearing? You could see the middle graining on the rear of some cars, but then the outside on others.... some on the left, some on the right, I couldn't get a pattern out of it. Felipe's front left in the middle was self-destructing, but the middle of Vettel's front left was flying apart?

Then Sutil's front left was gone in half the laps it should have made it through....? Very suddenly?

I think Pirelli are just letting the janitor mix the compounds before they cook them.


This sucks, I don't want them running around worrying about degradation. Not only that, but again - Lewis had obviously gone way past the tire's limit on the SS. What happens if someone pushes one too many laps?


Did you watch races the past 2 years? Or maybe learn about the Pirelli construction, the info is out there. Nothing happens, the requirement was to have high deg but a safe tyre when degraded. When somebody stays out too long, they use up all of the outer compound layer, then they run on the hard and safe inner compound layer, their times hit the cliff, and they pit.

The rest of what you wrote is uninformed as well.

#1234 baddog

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:06

Yes, the tyres are appallingly horrible by design not by accident. That isn't really better. It simply implies that the powers-the-be think randomised nonsense is racing.

#1235 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 08:13

Yes, the tyres are appallingly horrible by design not by accident. That isn't really better. It simply implies that the powers-the-be think randomised nonsense is racing.


If it was randomized a Caterham had the same chance of winning as an RB. Think about what you're writing, FFS

#1236 Prancing Horse

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:41


I'm tired of hearing from Hembery, I wish he wouldn't speak and was sat in a back room or shed somewhere drinking tea, I don't like the new found status he enjoys and wallows in.

#1237 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:44

I'm tired of hearing from Hembery, I wish he wouldn't speak and was sat in a back room or shed somewhere drinking tea, I don't like the new found status he enjoys and wallows in.


So in other words, you want to not hear about the only parts that connect the car to the road. Does not seem very reasonable.

#1238 Prancing Horse

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:49

So in other words, you want to not hear about the only parts that connect the car to the road. Does not seem very reasonable.


Correct

#1239 Prancing Horse

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:51

...and bring back refueling

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#1240 LiJu914

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 13:54

Never thought, i would miss bridgestone control-tyres.

#1241 EvanRainer

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:03

...and bring back refueling


Refueling was an utter joke. But let me guess, you're a Schumacher fan.

The problem with this race was that Pirelli brought the wrong tyres, compounded by the strange temperatures, compounded by the fact that the teams don't know the tyres yet.

To the guys here trying to explain to people how racing works: Don't bother. The people moaning clearly haven't ever even played a racing video game let alone truly understand racing. Some of them also moan because they have convinced themselves that their favourite driver would be kicking ass, if only he was allowed to "push".

#1242 Prancing Horse

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 14:09

Never thought, i would miss bridgestone control-tyres.



I concur, the tyres function should be to enable the car to race nothing more.


#1243 Vieras

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 16:15

Wouldn't it be nice if Pirelli would make us 2 set of tires for every race that would actually be useful and they wouldn't need to force drivers to use both of them in every race. One slow and durable tire and one weak but fast tire. So teams could make the strategic decision to drive fast and use 3 sets of fast tires or 2 sets of slow tires or a combination if they wish.

I mean actually allowing teams to make strategic decisions for themselves. Wouldn't that be fun to watch? Of course it would mean that Pirelli would have to make a tire that isn't considered as a punishment.

PS. can somebody explain to me the logic of giving formula 1 car tyres that evaporate if you try to drive fast? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of Formula1? Can't they make tyres that go bad after 20minutes driven fast or not? How other motorsport handel this?

#1244 pingu666

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 17:20

theres much less tyre talk in nascar, and other series...

#1245 XHawkeye

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:04

Refueling was an utter joke. But let me guess, you're a Schumacher fan.

The problem with this race was that Pirelli brought the wrong tyres, compounded by the strange temperatures, compounded by the fact that the teams don't know the tyres yet.

To the guys here trying to explain to people how racing works: Don't bother. The people moaning clearly haven't ever even played a racing video game let alone truly understand racing. Some of them also moan because they have convinced themselves that their favourite driver would be kicking ass, if only he was allowed to "push".





What ridiculous comments you make man, refueling was not a joke, I guess you didn't enjoy any motor racing from the 70's 80's 90's and 00's then? There was life before Pirelli tyres you know, as for never playing a video game, a lot of the guy's you are berating race for real in various leagues be it Karts or other motorsport, and for the record I AM a Schumacher fan. Jeez!







#1246 Vieras

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:24

Only bad thing about refueling is that there is much more suspense in tire change when cars don't have to sit there and wait till the fuel is done.

#1247 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:33

theres much less tyre talk in nascar, and other series...

That's a cultural thing. Formula One has become mollycoddled, where they expect everything to be homogenised and easy to spreadsheet to an optimum. The moment they face something dynamic to challenge them, it's all ooh, woe betide me, it's sooooo unfair.

Edited by MrAerodynamicist, 18 March 2013 - 20:36.


#1248 baddog

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 20:42

If it was randomized a Caterham had the same chance of winning as an RB. Think about what you're writing, FFS

Maldonando won a race last year, 100% thanks to tyre bullshit as that Driver/Car combo belonged nowhere near a win. Its not COMPLETE randomness but it is not a good tyre situation for the kind of racing I like to see.

#1249 McLarenNo1

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:07

I just hope that if Pirelli do stay in F1, they make tyres to a different specification like Bridgestones. They should at least make the tyres work well for the whole grid, rather than who just managed to have setup that gets tyres at correct temperature for car. The way they have made the tyres, it is always going to be main point in performance doing a race as they vary depending on weather. They should have a more neutral impact but the way they make it out, the teams should somehow figure a way to make the tyres work optimally when there is really little they can do but make the cars slower and have a wider operating window. Good for smaller teams though. Also you would think soon weather will have to be designed for these Pirelli tyres by Bernie :lol: as it can't be too cold or too hot. Tyres are not good enough level to work on relatively normal temperatures but is blamed on weather by Pirelli not being ideal :lol:.

They have been quite lucky given the regulations have promoted competitive overtaking such as Kers and DRS and less downforce. If Bridgestone stayed for 2011 season season at least, and Pirelli came in afterwards, they would most likely look more embarrassing than it is currently. In my opnion, these tyres are anti-racing as quite a few here have also said. They create a lot of marbles which doesn't help racing, tyres degrade too much to be able to follow cars as well as they might be able to do with better tyres, drivers drive well below their limit, mentally and physically. The kind of overtaking Pirelli promotes is drivers letting each other overtake in a gentleman kind of manner due to worry about tyre wear, or helplessness when tyres get worn too much. The good overtakes in my opinion is only when tyres are still fresh and cars are sometimes on limit of braking with Kers and/or DRS helping cars to get wheel to wheel. Even backmarkers helping also.

#1250 ApexMouse

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 21:49

So why did massa never get the bridgestone slicks into operating temperature then? Same with heidfeld and Bourdais.