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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#1301 Requiem84

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:14

No it doesn't.

Mclaren were the only team for the first half of the season with a proper F-duct.

Sure, we would have great overtaking if they only allow Hamilton to use the DRS system, while other team's can not use it at all. Plus: the F-duct was usuable everywhere.

Regarding the statement that slow cars are now as fast as the faster cars: who won the race, and where did the Force India finish? Who won the last championship, the guy with the worst car or the guy with the best car?

Pirelli equals things out, but not completely. The best car+driver still wins. If they had kept the Compound of 2012, all teams would know exactly how to do a 1 stopper. There would not be different strategies or surprises. Nor would there be many guys with tire issues (hence, less overtaking action). Vettel problaby would have walked away from the start of the race with the 2012 tires, to never see him again.... I really wonder if that is what you would like to see?

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#1302 Alx09

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:27

Is that artificial limiting exciting to you? I want to see the true potential of both driver and car, if that means one car setting off in the distance, then so be it. As long as great racing goes on in the race I'm happy.

When cars go around a corner they should be close to the limit of what the car and driver can handle, not what a tyre can handle. Because that's when you see human driving skill and engineering being put to the test, which creates excitement, mistakes, failures or epic performances. Right now Pirelli is primary, driver and car is secondary. It should be the other way around.

My question to you is: Do you find excitement when drivers are 4-6 off pace tyre conserving from the beginning to the end of race, where they are afraid to overtake because of screwing up their tyres?

When was the last time you saw a driver RE-overtake after having been passed? How often does that actual racing take place, when they fight back over several laps? It doesn't happen anymore because they burn their tyres up.

Edited by Alx09, 20 March 2013 - 10:30.


#1303 svalgis

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:32

I hope drivers start talking against these driving to delta entire race.

who cares what the drivers think? they are paid ridiculous amounts of money to live their dream, and there's thousands of others who will happily take their place. the majority of the audience (which brings sponsors, which brings money) prefers the "new" F1 and the fact that some of you belive that your opinion is worth more than 10 or even 100 "casual" viewers because you spend your lives on these forums is nothing short of narcissistic.

#1304 Rinehart

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:36

Please show me where he mentions the tyres, or why Pirelli was the reason for his enjoyment of the race?



PB, in countless threads you've stated that you think drivers drive to a delta time and you've used quotes such as "cruised", "tyres won't last at this pace" and "not on the limit". Fair enough. Lets remember that your strongest quotes have come from Mercedes drivers after the Bahrain GP last year where the most tyre limited car of all was not yet understood and dropped back in one of the most tyre critical races of all.

But in each thread I've stated my understanding that drivers need to look after the tyres in certain phases of the race and that this is more or less pronounced depending on the car, the track and the strategy, leading to anything from ultra conservative to not a problem at all, being evident at different races in the season. I've given you quotes from drivers saying they "pushed all race" and that "the stint time was no different if we pushed or conserved"

I've been reading your posts and it seems to me that you are moving your view a bit from every race is a delta fest, to they need to drive at a pace that looks after their tyres".

So I'm just saying if you were to add to that, "to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the car, track and strategy" then you'd be basically agreeing with me...

#1305 Requiem84

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:43

Is that artificial limiting exciting to you? I want to see the true potential of both driver and car, if that means one car setting off in the distance, then so be it. As long as great racing goes on in the race I'm happy.

When cars go around a corner they should be close to the limit of what the car and driver can handle, not what a tyre can handle. Because that's when you see human driving skill and engineering being put to the test, which creates excitement, mistakes, failures or epic performances. Right now Pirelli is primary, driver and car is secondary. It should be the other way around.

My question to you is: Do you find excitement when drivers are 4-6 off pace tyre conserving from the beginning to the end of race, where they are afraid to overtake because of screwing up their tyres?

When was the last time you saw a driver RE-overtake after having been passed? How often does that actual racing take place, when they fight back over several laps? It doesn't happen anymore because they burn their tyres up.


Like I said, how artifical is it? The best driver and car still win! If a Marussia suddenly would win the Australian GP I could see your argument.

I do not think it is that visible when a car is 3-4 seconds faster. It is remarkably hard to spot on television. Sometimes a Caterham looks faster than a RB, because it is often so out of shape. That does not interest me at all. It interests me to see drivers dare to make a move and pass somebody. Please download the Spanish GP of 2009 and rewatch it completely. There were 2 (!!!) overtakes in that entire race. Watch it again and tell me it is more interesting to watch that race than to watch Australia 2013.

Regarding your point of Re-overtaking; When was the last time you saw that in the pre-pirelli era? Pre pirelli cars had to be around 2,5/3 seconds a lap faster than the guy in front to overtake. How could the guy that was overtaken at that point get back according to you? Please specify examples.

Btw, watch this one on re-overtaking...



#1306 Massa

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:48

These topics almost make me sick of sadness.

I thoroughly hope F1 rule makers don't follow up on the advices people give here. The post above me states that races pre-pirelli were better because people were on the edge constantly. You state a few examples that were good races, yes. But, remember all those processions. You know, those races where people were driving 2,3 seconds behind someone else and never could get closer?

So cool to be on the edge and then be behind a slower car. Really, I'd love to see that.

I checked some facts for you:

Australian GP 2005 (The golden era, right?): a whopping 5 overtakes in the entire race:

Overtaking Driver Overtaken Driver
Lap Position Overtaker Since Pit Until Pit Overtaken Since Pit Until Pit Pit Diff.
17 9 Fernando Alonso 16 8 Jacques Villeneuve 16 5 0
30 6 Fernando Alonso 4 15 Jarno Trulli 11 6 -7
40 11 Jenson Button 18 1 Jarno Trulli 3 17 15
48 13 Ralf Schumacher 7 8 Jacques Villeneuve 8 8 -1
54 12 Ralf Schumacher 13 2 Takuma Sato 13 Unknown 0

Austrailian GP 2013
59 overtakes! And most important of all, overtakes for the lead. Not some backmarker cars that good overtaken...

Sure, not all overtakes where equally good or interesting, but at least there was action.

There is a reason Formula 1 is more popular than ever you know. So please, stop whining and enjoy the action. Or go watch another racing series...



With 2009-2013 cars, is much more easy to follow a car, unlike the 2001-2008 era. Nothing to do with Pirelli tyres.

Edited by Massa, 20 March 2013 - 10:48.


#1307 Massa

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:50

Refer to the link in my signature if you believe Pirelli is responsible for making the racing exciting. That's one driver, from 3 races. Bridgestones.

2009 and 2010 can be used as reference points, no other since cars were changed from the ground up after 2008 to allow better airflow behind.


It happened in Austin 2012 and it was epic, since tyres held up. I believe Hamilton and Vettel finished 30 seconds ahead of anyone else, pulling qualifying laps the whole race.



You are absolutly right about Austin 2012. The best race of the year. It was fantastic to watch, the track is great, allowing many apex, and the tyres were too hard so the driver could push without thinking about degradation ( bar Schumacher and Mercedes ).

Edited by Massa, 20 March 2013 - 10:57.


#1308 Massa

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:57

I think if tyres are not a limiting factor, then refueling is necessary - if you have durable tyres and no refueling, there is very limited room for strategy in F1, which in my view would be a big shame.



Durable tyres, no refueling and let the team choose the compound they want for the weekend. If Ferrari want to take the hard tyres, and do all the race without making a stop, and Mclaren the softer and they want to do 2 or 3 stop let them. And then, don't force the team to run Q3 tyres for the first stint.

It would be fantastic.

#1309 Alx09

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:37

I think we've found where the difference is between us:

I do not think it is that visible when a car is 3-4 seconds faster. It is remarkably hard to spot on television. [...]

I see it clearly that the cars are going slow. Both by how cars are handling on track and the actual speed on the sceen, plus how little drivers has to work the cars in corners.

Regarding your point of Re-overtaking; When was the last time you saw that in the pre-pirelli era?

This thread was created in 2011 and has been about Pirelli from the beginning. It just got a whole lot worse in 2013.

Btw, watch this one on re-overtaking...

Lewis dove on the inside in a desperate attempt, tyres didn't have the grip needed, Alonso re-passed instantly. Lewis was on worn-out tyres, Alonso on pretty fresh ones if I remember correctly.

One better example would probably be Korea 2011 between Hamilton/Webber. It just goes to show how rare fighting back is nowadays.

Edited by Alx09, 20 March 2013 - 11:41.


#1310 Massa

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:50

Yes, because if you fight too hard, you will kill your tyres. Now it's much better to give up a place instead of fight hard for 2-3 laps.

Now you can't tell " this driver is the better defender of the grid, nobody can overtake him ". Now i have the impression that all the guys want overtaking, for the sake of overtaking.

The last time i've seen a driver defend hard was Schumacher against Hamilton at Monza 2011, and after the race Schumacher was critisized badly. So everybody want overtaking, it's why we have gimmick like DRS, ultra soft tyres, when a driver defend his position he is critisized, all of that for the sake of overtaking because after some dull race in 2010 the FIA want a show so, more pitstop, and more overtaking.

I watch these races only because Ferrari is in the circus, but IMHO endurance race is much more interesting now than F1. Even the 24h du mans has became a sprint race, they drove as fast they can, their tyres could do some triple stints.

Edited by Massa, 20 March 2013 - 11:56.


#1311 eronrules

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:57

Yes, because if you fight too hard, you will kill your tyres. Now it's much better to give up a place instead of fight hard for 2-3 laps.


Boo HOo, i don't understand why you, pretentiousbeard, Rubens Hakkamacher, alx09 keep on arguing over a non issue. no matter how many example is given before you guys, you continue to be doom mongers. and yet u still watch the races and if i'll bet if your favorite drivers win, u guys will shut the hell up and praise pirelli.


well , continue being pretentious then, i'll bet you guys were really sad as the world didn't come to an end on 21.12.12 :lol:

Pirelli is here to stay, and we REAL fans will continue to support it.

Edited by eronrules, 20 March 2013 - 11:58.


#1312 boldhakka

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 14:35

I know it is not enough for some, but IMHO the fact that Whitmarsh asked them to make the tyres more complicated for 2013 because the 2012 tyres had become too simple to figure out must count for *something*. As for the supposition that Pirelli change the tyres during the season (and that it's all their own decision, and their own desire): sources please.


I'm not sure it's productive to discuss whose idea it was; whether it was Pirelli or Whitmarsh who decided to make the tyres mysterious again, it's all the same to me. Engineers who would no doubt prefer to be coming up with ideas similar to the F-duct, linked suspension, blown diffuser, etc. are now being put to figure out yet another curve ball from Pirelli. I don't like it, and think its a waste of talent, resources, and money.

We're seeing much less innovation in other areas because the tyres are consuming so many resources, I hope Pirelli, Whitmarsh, or whoever else is responsible just settles down and produces some simple tyres that degrade linearly at whatever rate they like. Instead of this voodoo.

#1313 MarileneRiddle

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 16:03

Is that artificial limiting exciting to you? I want to see the true potential of both driver and car, if that means one car setting off in the distance, then so be it. As long as great racing goes on in the race I'm happy.

When cars go around a corner they should be close to the limit of what the car and driver can handle, not what a tyre can handle. Because that's when you see human driving skill and engineering being put to the test, which creates excitement, mistakes, failures or epic performances. Right now Pirelli is primary, driver and car is secondary. It should be the other way around.

:up: It would be truly fantastic if things went your way because:

"In a front running car, my opinion is that Vettel is as good as – and might even be a smidge better than – Ayrton Senna." - Gary Anderson

So if you truly want to see Red Bull dominate race after race (and, God forbid, but I really don't mind), then go ahead. After all:
Posted Image
Credit to R2D2

Edited by MarileneRiddle, 20 March 2013 - 16:05.


#1314 akshay380

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 16:16

I was re watching some old races. Even then drivers talked about preserving tires but they also had multiple strategies to choose from. What struck me hard was that not a single person talked about putting up a show/entertainment. I have nothing to blame pirelli because they are doing what has been asked by FIA/teams etc.

F1 has changed a lot. A driver who wants to push hard at the expense of accepted/reasonable tire degradation/wear is punished far far higher then someone who wants to drive to delta making less stops. Both are racers but one is getting compromised way too much. That in MY book should not happen in so called pinnacle of motor sport.

Let's see what this years tires do!

Edited by akshay380, 20 March 2013 - 16:28.


#1315 pingu666

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 17:02

i dont mind some races being tyre limited, but i want some races to be about driving as hard and fast as possible, without the tyres falling off a cliff after a few laps.

le mans 2011 was fantastic in that regard, do a 40-45min stint at qualifying pace (sometimes under pole time!), take fuel, no tyres. another qualy stint. take fuel only, another qualy stint. possibly change tyres and drivers on third stop, or carry on and do 4 or even 5 stints, to be fair they did slow abit during the 5th stint...

typicaly they would do 1-2 slow laps to get the tyres up to temp (no tyre blankets like f1) and to bed them in. then just drive as fast as possible....


high deg tyres can be entertaining, but having guys push like crazy and go all out, that can be great too...


#1316 PorcupineTroy

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 17:23

I was re watching some old races. Even then drivers talked about preserving tires but they also had multiple strategies to choose from. What struck me hard was that not a single person talked about putting up a show/entertainment. I have nothing to blame pirelli because they are doing what has been asked by FIA/teams etc.


I've been watching races from 1993 over the off-season, and I thought the same thing.

#1317 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 18:34

I've been watching races from 1993 over the off-season, and I thought the same thing.


I have no evidence for it, but I think that some of the reasons that, e.g., the Goodyear Eagle looks so devoid of problems from our point of view, are the Twitter effect, the Internet in general, and the teams' increased knowledge (sensors, computer simulation of tyres, ...). Maybe the representative from Goodyear would have used the Internet to tell us stuff, but he couldn't. Teams knew a small fraction of what the tyre was actual doing, compared with today. And what they knew they didn't/couldn't tell us either. Not every tiny detail was discussed over and over in forums. If a car was slower, it was slower, to us.

And also the margins were not as small as they are today. Today they and we worry about a tenth more or a tenth less of tyre deg per lap. Then, cars had six wheels or propellers and their engines disintegrated every other day.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 20 March 2013 - 18:36.


#1318 PretentiousBread

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 18:35

Boo HOo, i don't understand why you, pretentiousbeard, Rubens Hakkamacher, alx09 keep on arguing over a non issue. no matter how many example is given before you guys, you continue to be doom mongers. and yet u still watch the races and if i'll bet if your favorite drivers win, u guys will shut the hell up and praise pirelli.


well , continue being pretentious then, i'll bet you guys were really sad as the world didn't come to an end on 21.12.12 :lol:

Pirelli is here to stay, and we REAL fans will continue to support it.


Firstly, we are not some homogeneous lump (but if we were, presumably you could throw Schumacher, Lauda and Hamilton, Webber and Button into that lump who all feel a certain amount of negativity over this 'non-issue'), we have different opinions, but we all agree that what Pirelli/FIA are doing for racing is the wrong direction for F1. Don't claim to know what I think, I regard most of LH's victories these days as comparatively hollow victories to his pre-2011 wins - his level of success is neither here nor there with my opinions on Pirelli's rapidly degrading rubber. I'd prefer a strong 4th place finish at India for Hamilton - with him positively beaming afterwards at having the shackles off and being able to drive at a pace representative of his outright talent and ability (anyone who saw his interview on BBC afterwards would completely understand what I mean) - rather than a race victory of predominant tyre saving at Hungary.

Secondly, that you regard this as a non-issue is just total ignorance. About a year ago, before Schumacher's rant against the tyres, the conventional thought was that the drivers were still being tested to their limits, even though it'd become obvious they weren't. Any time it was suggested that drivers were having to drive some way off their potential lap time for much of the race in order to save the tyres, that the game had changed completely, it was laughed at, being such an incredulous notion at the time. Since then, owed largely to Schumacher's complaints and the subsequent furore and questions asked in the media, the conventional wisdom has shifted to an acceptance that the style of racing is indeed very different (Rosberg said it was 'like a different sport'). The same people who scoffed initially at the suggestion that the art of driving had changed dramatically were the same people backtracking to "ok it's different, but so what?". Backtracking that much from such a strong opinion makes you wonder how much further people will backtrack before it becomes accepted that F1's masquerading of itself as some sort of pinnacle of racecar driving, with the fastest drivers in the world's main demand being their ultimate pace, is a load of illusionary bollocks.

But sure what do I know? I'm just a pretentious, doom mongerer apparently. Since everyone around here is always so concerned with who says what rather than what they're saying (not pretentious at all), ignore me and please read carefully what Mark Hughes thinks (written in a 2011 preview, and remarkably prophetic):

"It's not racing," complained Lewis Hamilton. "It's just driving around." "Don't watch me, mate," said Mark Webber to a spectating Martin Brundle. "I'm only doing long runs this afternoon. It's going to be painfully slow."

This pretty much summarises how the drivers feel about the latest set of demands. They have sent their entire careers up to this point pushing as hard as they could, maximising the speed of the car at all times, fighting for every split-second of lap time. Suddenly, that's only a very small part of the game. Balancing the car front to rear in terms of both set-up and driving - and then hanging on to an oversteering bronco late in the stint - is what it's all going to be about. Using the car's oversteer early in a stint to minimise the direction change will be a no-no, as that will only wear through those fragile rear tyres even quicker. Keeping as much strain off the rears as possible, while still maintaining a reasonable momentum - and having a feel for how much you can get away with pushing in those early laps of a stint - will be the key endeavour.

But much as the drivers might dislike it, spectators will probably enjoy it. As the cars are moving around a lot more, the car control of the drivers will be much more visible. Controlling low-grip oversteer is just a tiresome, easy bore for them. But from the outside it looks great. It has long been one of the ironies of modern racing cars that the faster and better behaved they can be made to corner, the bigger the challenge for the drivers, the more sorting there is of the men from the boys - but the duller it looks to the casual spectator.

It isn't really going to be a case of which drivers this may or may not suit, it will actually be a lot less demanding than before purely from a driving-skill perspective. Wear rate is going to dominate everything - and, other than choosing the appropriate pace for any given moment, there's little a driver will be able to do about it. It will be about getting as much downforce on the car as possible, particularly at the rear, and driving to a pre-determined pace some way off your potential at the beginning of the stint - then adapting to the increasing oversteer. But it's not as if it's high-grip, demanding oversteer. They will all be able to do it just fine.


Lastly, it's pathetic to claim like you're some sort of 'real fan' and we aren't because you support Pirelli, just because you're a fan of the current tripe on offer doesn't mean we can't follow the sport and hope for something better in the future.

#1319 Rinehart

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 18:52

^ I think it's blatantly outrageous to consider Kimis win in Australia to be "hollow" because of your beef with the tyres that you haven't personally experienced. I totally accept that your opinion is that the tyres are limiting racing and I understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree, but Kimi drove a fantastic race, I bet it was not easy by any stretch. It's still 750bhp and 200mph, on marginal rubber.

How is a massive car advantage such as Scumacher had in say 2004, albeit shod on tyres that you presume we're less limiting than the current ones, any less hollow? Great if MS was on tyres that allowed him to run at full pace - but did he need to? Or was he.... managing his pace...  ;)

I really can't think of an era of F1 where pace hasn't been limited by something, be it mechanical, fuel or tyres. GP Racing is and always will be a combination of pace and managing equipment.

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#1320 MP422

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:08

^ I think it's blatantly outrageous to consider Kimis win in Australia to be "hollow" because of your beef with the tyres that you haven't personally experienced. I totally accept that your opinion is that the tyres are limiting racing and I understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree, but Kimi drove a fantastic race, I bet it was not easy by any stretch. It's still 750bhp and 200mph, on marginal rubber.

How is a massive car advantage such as Scumacher had in say 2004, albeit shod on tyres that you presume we're less limiting than the current ones, any less hollow? Great if MS was on tyres that allowed him to run at full pace - but did he need to? Or was he.... managing his pace... ;)

I really can't think of an era of F1 where pace hasn't been limited by something, be it mechanical, fuel or tyres. GP Racing is and always will be a combination of pace and managing equipment.




It was Hollow, I'm a Kimi Fan too. He is my one of my two favorites. He won cause of the tires. It was his easiest win he said,,,, These tires are garbage. I'm happy for him and Lotus but if you think that race was exciting driving/racing you should go back in time and watch races from the past.

#1321 Alx09

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:13

I really can't think of an era of F1 where pace hasn't been limited by something, be it mechanical, fuel or tyres. GP Racing is and always will be a combination of pace and managing equipment.

Well, sure. But the point people try to make is that the balance between these limiting factors (including the human one) in todays F1 is totally off. It's a complete focus on tyres, nothing else.

If F1 wants to be the "Pinnacle of motorsport", then it needs to find that balance again.

Edited by Alx09, 20 March 2013 - 19:18.


#1322 f1supreme

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:23

The tyres are deciding the results now. It's the tyres making the difference more and more, not the driver. Kimi said winning the race was easy. It was only easy because his car was easiest on the tyres. Someone said things are better coz there's more overtaking now, 59 overtakes in Melbourne, but how many where quality overtakes, requiring skill and risk? It's not about the amount, its about the quality.


#1323 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:28

The tyres are deciding the results now. It's the tyres making the difference more and more, not the driver. Kimi said winning the race was easy. It was only easy because his car was easiest on the tyres. Someone said things are better coz there's more overtaking now, 59 overtakes in Melbourne, but how many where quality overtakes, requiring skill and risk? It's not about the amount, its about the quality.


Maybe, but Schumacher, Button, or Hill, to name just three, also had easy wins.

#1324 Clatter

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:35

The tyres are deciding the results now. It's the tyres making the difference more and more, not the driver. Kimi said winning the race was easy. It was only easy because his car was easiest on the tyres. Someone said things are better coz there's more overtaking now, 59 overtakes in Melbourne, but how many where quality overtakes, requiring skill and risk? It's not about the amount, its about the quality.


In which case it's not the tyres deciding the results.


#1325 crespo

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:38

Well, sure. But the point people try to make is that the balance between these limiting factors (including the human one) in todays F1 is totally off. It's a complete focus on tyres, nothing else.

If F1 wants to be the "Pinnacle of motorsport", then it needs to find that balance again.

Blame the standardization of nearly every other aspect of the sport. Tire use is the main thing teams can take advantage of nowadays.

#1326 MP422

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:39

The tyres are deciding the results now. It's the tyres making the difference more and more, not the driver. Kimi said winning the race was easy. It was only easy because his car was easiest on the tyres. Someone said things are better coz there's more overtaking now, 59 overtakes in Melbourne, but how many where quality overtakes, requiring skill and risk? It's not about the amount, its about the quality.



I agree the thrill is in the chase. I love watching drivers explore different lines to over take... the build up of pressure to cause a mistake. Just look back to Alonso/Schumacher in 2003.. was it imola ? i don't remember but wow !!!

#1327 Alx09

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 19:57

59 overtakes in Melbourne, but how many where quality overtakes, requiring skill and risk? It's not about the amount, its about the quality.

This is actually a good point. The only overtake that made me somewhat excited was when Lewis tried to defend against a charging Alonso + lockup. Rest were barely noteworthy.

#1328 Szoelloe

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:31

The tyres are deciding the results now. It's the tyres making the difference more and more, not the driver. Kimi said winning the race was easy. It was only easy because his car was easiest on the tyres. Someone said things are better coz there's more overtaking now, 59 overtakes in Melbourne, but how many where quality overtakes, requiring skill and risk? It's not about the amount, its about the quality.


While that was true for the first half of the season in terms of results, it was certainly not true the latter part of 2012. There may be a different development direction forced on the teams by Pirelli, but the balance of power has not shifted on the grid. The usual suspects are the most successful. The Pirellis may mask some deficiencies of a highly competitive car that otherwise would be a decisive factor in a season-long title hunt, but that is certainly NOT why I personally don't like what we have seen last year. What I DO not like is that it limits the racing to the speed a car can maintain on a stint, considerably limits what a driver can add to a car he is driving -or limiting his ability to exploit the car as he can or wishes to, if you wish - , thus in a way derogating my level of entertainment. It certainly limits the varieties in strategy to a binary level, contrary to what Pirelli is stating, Simply put, it is seriously crippling the racing I would expect. Please note that I am not convinced yet that this will fully be true this season though. There have been changes made to the tires, and although the tires have a shorter lifespan than last season, that does not necessarily mean they are even less 'racy', or the same as last season. One unusually cold race may not be that informative yet. I do think that the 'science' and effort that Pirelli has put into the development of these tyres are cheap though, but presumably, that is the sign of the times. From strictly the casual fan POV, if you happen to be interested in only the fact that your favorite team/driver delivers the points/podiums/wins or not, unfortunately Paul Hembery is perfectly right. I still hope for improvement on the above this season.


#1329 scheivlak

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 20:54

This is actually a good point. The only overtake that made me somewhat excited was when Lewis tried to defend against a charging Alonso + lockup. Rest were barely noteworthy.

Your existence must be quite miserable.

#1330 Massa

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 21:58

i dont mind some races being tyre limited, but i want some races to be about driving as hard and fast as possible, without the tyres falling off a cliff after a few laps.

le mans 2011 was fantastic in that regard, do a 40-45min stint at qualifying pace (sometimes under pole time!), take fuel, no tyres. another qualy stint. take fuel only, another qualy stint. possibly change tyres and drivers on third stop, or carry on and do 4 or even 5 stints, to be fair they did slow abit during the 5th stint...

typicaly they would do 1-2 slow laps to get the tyres up to temp (no tyre blankets like f1) and to bed them in. then just drive as fast as possible....


high deg tyres can be entertaining, but having guys push like crazy and go all out, that can be great too...



Spot on. Le Mans has became a sprint race. It's just fantastic to watch, these monster cars go as fast they can on a such fantastic track.

#1331 pdac

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 23:06

34 pages and still going - get over it.

None of us like the new regulations, but they're what's been decided and none of the teams are making too much fuss about it, so they must be okay with them too.

F1 is not what it used to be and it never will be again.

#1332 tvianna

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 23:36

I don't have any complaints about the tyres or the DRS, but I think the rules are too restrictive. Some doesn't make sense any more, like the parc ferme rule, and I would like a free tyre usage. All the tyre compounds would be available and each team/driver would choose the tyre strategy that suits them most. They could use a softer tyre, then change to a harder tyre, or stick to the softer, being faster but stopping more times, or even using only the hardest tyre and not stopping at all.

#1333 OO7

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:43

"Sometimes you try to go under the tyre, give yourself a little more later on, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.
"It's not always in the driver's control. Sometimes there is not much you can do from the inside of the car to control tyre degradation.

This is what I believe many don't like about the Pirelli tyres. Often there is very little the driver can do to slow degradation.

#1334 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:52

This is what I believe many don't like about the Pirelli tyres. Often there is very little the driver can do to slow degradation.


And often there was very little the driver could do about Michelin graining. And in tyre wars, never anything he could do about one team having superior tyres.

#1335 Massa_f1

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 13:49

The main problem is you have 2 sets of F1 fans

Those who want to see the cars pushed over a race without the fear of over doing it on the tyres. Then you have the risk of boring races

Then you have those who want to see maybe 5 to 7 leaders, and drivers driving to a delta time which makes F1 races in some ways very easy for a driver. Its less likely your going to make a mistake driving to your delta time.


F1 is in kind of sad situation, because you can't please everybody

As for my opinion I would rather see them drive as fast as they can during races. Watching races back from 2007 or 2008 when drivers are allowed to push has been a real eye opener for me.

There was no need to bring in these tyres with the arrival of DRS at the same time.

Edited by Massa_f1, 21 March 2013 - 13:51.


#1336 LiJu914

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 15:40

Small question (didn´t know where to put it, but i thought this thread would be the most appropriate...)

"Sometimes you try to go under the tyre, give yourself a little more later on, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.


I´m not familiar with this wording. What is it supposed to mean? Saving the tyres for later on?

Edited by LiJu914, 21 March 2013 - 15:41.


#1337 crespo

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 15:46

Small question (didn´t know where to put it, but i thought this thread would be the most appropriate...)



I´m not familiar with this wording. What is it supposed to mean? Saving the tyres for later on?

That's what it most probably means. Saying "going under the tyre" is probably in reference to the tire's max output per lap. I don't know for a fact, but it's the most reasonable explanation I can think of.

#1338 Skinnyguy

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 15:48

I´m not familiar with this wording. What is it supposed to mean? Saving the tyres for later on?


Yes. Sounds like "keeping away from the performance tyre can offer at a certain point" to me. And it has a sometimes before. Which means those thinking they´re costing around most of time nowadays is deluded.

#1339 Rinehart

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 20:32

I note the doom merchants managed not to quote the part where Vettel says "we're on the limit most of the time".

All I see is a clique that has decided it's fashionable to slate these tyres.

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#1340 eronrules

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 20:50

I note the doom merchants managed not to quote the part where Vettel says "we're on the limit most of the time".

All I see is a clique that has decided it's fashionable to slate these tyres.


i believe it's called "quote mining", a popular tactics for 'Doom Mongers INC.'


http://en.wikipedia...._out_of_context

#1341 pingu666

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 22:12

I agree the thrill is in the chase. I love watching drivers explore different lines to over take... the build up of pressure to cause a mistake. Just look back to Alonso/Schumacher in 2003.. was it imola ? i don't remember but wow !!!

i have good news for you, fontana is up next for napcar, and the racing groove is *nearly* as wide as a ur mum joke :)




I think f1 would have better races if we got rid of the must start on qualy tyres, and/or manditory 2 compound useage. still have 3 sets of soft/hard compound for race day, but use em however you want.

but its sad how tyres dominate f1 talk and races, its much less in sportscars, supergt (from what little i follow, only 5 tyre manufactorers...! ) and stadium super truck is going to spec trucks with different makes of tyres :o


#1342 plumtree

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 22:16

Small question (didn´t know where to put it, but i thought this thread would be the most appropriate...)

"Sometimes you try to go under the tyre, give yourself a little more later on, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.

I´m not familiar with this wording. What is it supposed to mean? Saving the tyres for later on?

The meaning is clearer in this quote. http://en.espnf1.com...ory/103690.html

"The last two years with Pirellis we had a lot more degradation than we used to and from a driver point of view when the tyres run away from you it's not so nice because you can't challenge the car as much as you'd like. In qualifying we get more or less one lap out of the tyres and then we drive under the car because the tyres don't allow us to [keep pushing]. Obviously it was very different in the old days, but it's the same for everyone so it doesn't make a big difference. Surely if you could choose as a driver you would love to go flat out and 100% every lap to challenge yourself and challenge the car. Obviously if the car is full of fuel and the tyres are getting older so you're going five, six or seven seconds slower, then it's a different style of Formula One."

(He said similar things on the last testing day. "If you sum up the whole three tests, we were all limited to what the tyres could do.")

Edited by plumtree, 21 March 2013 - 22:18.


#1343 Freung

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:03

Your existence must be quite miserable.



Or maybe this poster simply has high standards. :stoned:

#1344 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 23:17

I´m not familiar with this wording. What is it supposed to mean? Saving the tyres for later on?
The meaning is clearer in this quote. http://en.espnf1.com...ory/103690.html

"The last two years with Pirellis we had a lot more degradation than we used to and from a driver point of view when the tyres run away from you it's not so nice because you can't challenge the car as much as you'd like. In qualifying we get more or less one lap out of the tyres and then we drive under the car because the tyres don't allow us to [keep pushing]. Obviously it was very different in the old days, but it's the same for everyone so it doesn't make a big difference. Surely if you could choose as a driver you would love to go flat out and 100% every lap to challenge yourself and challenge the car. Obviously if the car is full of fuel and the tyres are getting older so you're going five, six or seven seconds slower, then it's a different style of Formula One."


I can see his point from a driver's point of view, but as a spectator I don't have much satisfaction from every driver going 100% of his car's ultimate ability all the time, because that's a sure recipe for a procession every race, as the cars are already lined up by their 100% pace on the grid. (And yeah, to see drivers at 100% of their and their cars' abilities is wonderful, but that's what quali is for, and some phases of the race. I don't need 1.500 laps of it in every race.)

Also, I'm sure drivers from other eras would have liked to go 100% all the time, but they, too, had to keep an eye on tyres, fuel, gearboxes, engines, and whatnot.

(He said similar things on the last testing day. "If you sum up the whole three tests, we were all limited to what the tyres could do.")


Irrelevant because it was acknowledged all around that the tyres simply didn't work in the cold weather. (There was 5 seconds or so of drop-off after the first lap Whatever you think of Pirellis, that's not what they usually do)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 22 March 2013 - 00:37.


#1345 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:03

I note the doom merchants managed not to quote the part where Vettel says "we're on the limit most of the time".

All I see is a clique that has decided it's fashionable to slate these tyres.


Taken from this article?

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106212

Can't find it.

EDIT - Or this article?

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/103690.html

Still can't find it.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 22 March 2013 - 01:07.


#1346 akshay380

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 02:47

i believe it's called "quote mining", a popular tactics for 'Doom Mongers INC.'


http://en.wikipedia...._out_of_context

LMAO! What an irony. Who is doing this 'mining' now? Refer PBs post above. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#1347 Timstr11

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:47

Leading team member asks for extra set of tyres:
http://www1.skysport...in-Practice-One

I'm starting to agree that the deliberate design of delicate tyres has been taken a step too far.

#F1 '@AussieGrit: "The whole category is geared around tyres at the moment. Everything is around tyres - tyres, tyres, tyres, tyres..."


Edited by Timstr11, 22 March 2013 - 07:53.


#1348 Sakae

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:55

I note the doom merchants managed not to quote the part where Vettel says "we're on the limit most of the time".

All I see is a clique that has decided it's fashionable to slate these tyres.

Which limit is that? Speed that tire can bear, or limit of his car?

#1349 Rinehart

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:59

Taken from this article?

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106212

Can't find it.

EDIT - Or this article?

http://en.espnf1.com...ory/103690.html

Still can't find it.


OMG it's right there in the middle of the Autosport article.

"All the time you try to go as fast as you can"

What is the point in this discussion if your not sticking to simple reality?

#1350 Rinehart

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:01

LMAO! What an irony. Who is doing this 'mining' now? Refer PBs post above. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Turns out the joke is on you as PB ha s just been proven 100% wrong.