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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#1351 Rinehart

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:03

Which limit is that? Speed that tire can bear, or limit of his car?


That is the same thing. :rolleyes:

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#1352 skid solo

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:03

I note the doom merchants managed not to quote the part where Vettel says "we're on the limit most of the time".

All I see is a clique that has decided it's fashionable to slate these tyres.


Limit of what, adhesion, tolerance, performance...?

#1353 skid solo

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:06

OMG it's right there in the middle of the Autosport article.

"All the time you try to go as fast as you can"


They try but.....

#1354 Rinehart

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:18

This is getting childish. "Fast as you can" is the same as "the limit" and "limit of the car" is the same as "limit of the tyres" or adhesion or whatever. They "try".

Face it Vettel confirmed the opposite of your mythical mantra about delta times. He said obviously the are driving as fast as they can and only sometimes do they save a bit of the tyres for later in the stint. If fast as they can is 6 sec slower than qualifying due to the fuel and condition of the tyres, SO WHAT it's still the limit. Not the bullshit delta time.

But I know your type, once you've nailed your colours to the mast, you can't be seen to be wrong even on the anonymous Internet.

Edited by Rinehart, 22 March 2013 - 08:20.


#1355 Jovanotti

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:22

+1

Get over it guys. The racing we are enjoying right now is great, and the cream still rises to the top. What is the problem exactly?

Edited by Jovanotti, 22 March 2013 - 08:31.


#1356 race addicted

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:24

The tires are a total, total joke.

"the only conditions the slicks worked in, was the wet" - Mark Webber.
It really is a farce now.

#1357 skid solo

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:26

This is getting childish. "Fast as you can" is the same as "the limit" and "limit of the car" is the same as "limit of the tyres" or adhesion or whatever. They "try".

Face it Vettel confirmed the opposite of your mythical mantra about delta times. He said obviously the are driving as fast as they can and only sometimes do they save a bit of the tyres for later in the stint. If fast as they can is 6 sec slower than qualifying due to the fuel and condition of the tyres, SO WHAT it's still the limit. Not the bullshit delta time.

But I know your type, once you've nailed your colours to the mast, you can't be seen to be wrong even on the anonymous Internet.


So sometimes they do save their tyres for later in the stint..?



#1358 Murdoch

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:26

There was no need to bring in these tyres with the arrival of DRS at the same time.


+1



#1359 Ferrim

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:26

I don't remember Red Bull BSing the tyres five or six months ago. Back then it was all about how great their team and their car was.

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#1360 gricey1981

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:27

This is getting childish. "Fast as you can" is the same as "the limit" and "limit of the car" is the same as "limit of the tyres" or adhesion or whatever. They "try".

Face it Vettel confirmed the opposite of your mythical mantra about delta times. He said obviously the are driving as fast as they can and only sometimes do they save a bit of the tyres for later in the stint. If fast as they can is 6 sec slower than qualifying due to the fuel and condition of the tyres, SO WHAT it's still the limit. Not the bullshit delta time.

But I know your type, once you've nailed your colours to the mast, you can't be seen to be wrong even on the anonymous Internet.


No it isnt though. Try to go as fast as they can is very different to we are on the limit most of the time.

I guess i kinda the point your making but the tires are such a limiting factor that the car/ driver are not really reaching any type of limit.

Not saying the pirellis are necessarily bad. The races have been enjoyable plus qualifying they are flat out.

Edited by gricey1981, 22 March 2013 - 08:30.


#1361 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:30

+1

Get over it guys. The racing we are enjoying right now is great, and it the cream still rises to the top. What is the problem exactly?


especially with livetiming, it is very good, maybe 2014 will be a shock! so I enjoy it now as long as it is there.

#1362 Atreiu

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:40

The tires are a total, total joke.

"the only conditions the slicks worked in, was the wet" - Mark Webber.
It really is a farce now.


Hurray for Pirelli, not.

http://adamcooperf1....rvive-the-race/

I hope we have enough thres to survive the race is also a nice way of saying things.

Edited by Atreiu, 22 March 2013 - 08:46.


#1363 Msaman

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:45

Of course they will be complaining when they are not so gentle on them.Why didn't they say anything last few races :D
Ferrari hasn't said a thing because they are pretty happy with their degradation the same as Lotus and FI .
There were and there will always be a limiting factor in F1.
So just enjoy it guys .For people complaining about artificially overtaking can start looking closer.Last year there were pretty great overtakes from Kimi,Hulk,Di Resta and that's not because of DRS :p

Edited by Msaman, 22 March 2013 - 08:46.


#1364 plumtree

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:45

I don't remember Red Bull BSing the tyres five or six months ago. Back then it was all about how great their team and their car was.

Then you didn't follow them closely. Webber was never a fan of Pirelli tyres and sort of concurred with Schumacher's view. Vettel, maybe he was more reserved last year but his opinion haven't changed really. Didi Mateschitz expressed his displeasure with the situations last season and again this year after the Barcelona testing as well. So don't assume it's just sour grapes.


ETA: People kept harping on how much the limited usage of DRS would hurt Red Bull. But according to Webber, "Sebastian and I are very happy; we pushed quite hard to have DRS dropped down in terms of volume on Saturday afternoon so we’re quite relaxed with that one."

Edited by plumtree, 22 March 2013 - 08:59.


#1365 kedia990

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:52

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106233 :lol:
If a forum member had gone on a rant like that, he'd be shot down to no end...

#1366 Nonesuch

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:59

I don't remember Red Bull BSing the tyres five or six months ago. Back then it was all about how great their team and their car was.

Look no further than the F1 teams and drivers for selective complaining when things don't go their way. :p

However, it is perhaps the only way these frustrations - which do have value, I'd say - make it out to the public. So: Webber! :up:

#1367 skid solo

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:00

But I know your type, once you've nailed your colours to the mast, you can't be seen to be wrong even on the anonymous Internet.


It's not really about who's right and who's wrong, this topic is about the argument of whether new pirellis are a disaster for racing or not?

I think driving to a delta is a misleading concept because its not really what is happening. As Vettel said, they are trying to go as fast as they can. The issue is one of balance between the front and rear tyres, which is directly related to their ability to keep them in the thermal window. Vettel for instance had a set up in Melbourne for qualifying that worked really well, but later in the day during the race, the balance was no longer as good.

"The key with the Pirelli tyres is to get the fronts warmed up evenly with the rears for a single lap in qualifying. But with the same set up, the car has to then manage that heat, particularly the rears, on longer runs. Having the front tyres in the right temperature window is particularly important for grip on turn-in to the corner. Equally If the thermal balance is out regardless of too hot or too cold, excessive wear is experienced."

So to clarify, they try to go as fast as they can, but the speed is directly related to thermal balance. Raikonen and Lotus got it spot on last week. The question then is, has all this emphasis on finding how to illicit Pirellis idiosyncratic performance become a diversion from team and driver performance? Some like it, some don't...


#1368 gerry nassar

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:10

The Red Bull drivers had no issue when they had a huge aero advantage over the other teams!!

#1369 apoka

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:16

The Red Bull drivers had no issue when they had a huge aero advantage over the other teams!!

They still didn't like it. Maybe they were less vocal about it, but both of them like to push the car to its limits (which is true for most F1 drivers).

Edit: By limit, I mean that of the actual car - that thing above the tyres.

Edited by apoka, 22 March 2013 - 09:17.


#1370 ZooL

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:17

Vettel:

"Today tyre wear was pretty severe for everyone, so obviously you go around way under the [potential of the] car.

"It is not a lot of fun and that is how it is."


Alonso bitched about them too in winter testing, and Schumacher, and Hamilton has previously said he is no longer 'racing the car'.

All the range has gone another step softer this year. Probably a step too far.

#1371 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:20

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/106233 :lol:
If a forum member had gone on a rant like that, he'd be shot down to no end...


RB and especially Webber are the biggest crybabies in F1 on par with Alonso nd Ferrari. Loving it!

#1372 Massa

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:23

Yeah, in front your PC you know better than them if its good or not..

#1373 skid solo

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:24

They still didn't like it. Maybe they were less vocal about it, but both of them like to push the car to its limits (which is true for most F1 drivers).

Edit: By limit, I mean that of the actual car - that thing above the tyres.


IT?  ;)

#1374 apoka

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:28

IT? ;)

It can stand for "the Pirelli problem", "high tyre deg" or "being too limited by the tyres".  ;)

#1375 icewest07

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:33

Kimi has a simple way of viewing it : "it's the same for everybody" (and this come from a guy that has 1 year less experience than most of top teams drivers, and also done the least of testing with those tyres).

And as many said previously, it requires another type of skills: drivers have to adapt as well as teams to workout the best setup to avoid crazy tyres deg.

Ferrari, Mclaren, Red Bull and Mercedes have all bigger ressources than other teams, and yet the likes of Lotus Sauber, Williams and Force India could prove a threat to them in some races last year which shows it's just about doing your homeworks better within the rules, with what you've got.

These big teams should not complain at all, because what if the midfield teams start a row on reducing the allowed budget of developpment to a level that everyone could afford... Talking about fair racing (in all aspect of the game)!

#1376 F.M.

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:36

Degradation of the hard tyre on Vettel's car:

9 1:41.576
10 1:50.391
11 1:41.873
12 1:42.487
13 1:42.486
14 1:42.687
15 1:43.214
16 1:43.593 -> aaaaand they're gone
17 1:45.105
18 1:45.381
19 2:05.763
20 1:46.323



#1377 jstrains

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:37

AMuS: Top teams suspect Lotus having advantage in Pirelli testing with their older car

http://www.auto-moto...il-6801025.html

#1378 F.M.

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:50

AMuS: Top teams suspect Lotus having advantage in Pirelli testing with their older car

http://www.auto-moto...il-6801025.html

:rotfl:

#1379 pit5bul

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:54

yeah... same story all over again.. 2011 , 2012 , 2013.. tires rule... c'mon I'm sick to death of these tires.. bring back Bridgestone.. and let them race to the maximum of possibilities .. its not F1 when drivers say they aren't racing the car.. they are just pacing themselves.. seriously what is this ? I understand people like more exciting races because of the tires but this is getting a bit too much.. I'm losing interest in a championship that is based on running as slow as you can so you can preserve the tires.. it seems that on Friday now all they do is run certain times on the tires. analyze the degradation.. thus getting their delta times for racing on Sunday..

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#1380 rhukkas

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:03

If I hear 'adapt to the tyres' or 'same for everyone' one more time I will explode. If they said "everyone has to drive with dog shit plastered inside their visor", I guess that would be the same for everyone, and the drivers would have to adapt right? No, it's shit, stinky smelly shit.

What is the point of f1 if you have to drive well under the potential of yourself and the car for the entire Grand Prix? How is THAT exciting?

Edited by rhukkas, 22 March 2013 - 10:05.


#1381 F.M.

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:09

Button: "I don't think there's a lot of degradation here, I think we're not going to see much degradation in the race at all so it's definitely not an issue that we have here like we had in the first race."

#1382 Goron3

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:14

If I hear 'adapt to the tyres' or 'same for everyone' one more time I will explode. If they said "everyone has to drive with dog shit plastered inside their visor", I guess that would be the same for everyone, and the drivers would have to adapt right? No, it's shit, stinky smelly shit.

What is the point of f1 if you have to drive well under the potential of yourself and the car for the entire Grand Prix? How is THAT exciting?


Other than the refueling era, F1 was ALWAYS like that. Go and watch any race from any era and you'll that they are managing much more than the tyres (engines, gearbox etc).

#1383 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:17

Button: "I don't think there's a lot of degradation here, I think we're not going to see much degradation in the race at all so it's definitely not an issue that we have here like we had in the first race."


But in FPs today it didn't look that way, it looked like they were shredding both compounds. And even I (!!!!) was thinking this was going too far. I have to admit though that it was early and I didn't pay much attention to how many laps they did.

Regarding Webber's rant, I do believe that part of his motivation is the poor RB tyre treatment. They weren't complaining too much as long as they won.

Edit: Hembery not agreeing with Button

As we expected, we saw quite a high wear rate today, due to the more extreme nature of our 2013 tyres - which put the accent firmly on performance – as well as the high temperatures and abrasive track surface. Nonetheless, degradation stayed within our anticipated parameters.

"We have also seen differences in the way that individual teams use the compounds, with the hard compound lasting 15 laps for some teams and 21 laps or more for others. We'll be looking at all the data tonight to establish a more precise picture for qualifying and the race."


Edit: And that also gives support to my suspicion that Webber is so upset because the RB does not work.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 22 March 2013 - 10:42.


#1384 rhukkas

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:21

Other than the refueling era, F1 was ALWAYS like that. Go and watch any race from any era and you'll that they are managing much more than the tyres (engines, gearbox etc).


That was because they had to. It was just a consequence of the technology of the time. The engineers were trying their best to improve the technology so drivers could push harder and harder without having the 'manage' equipment. The objective - GET BETTER! As a viewer you were observing drives pushing the limits of the technology available at the time.

What we have now is VERY different. Pirelli is artificial management. I agree for the spectacle things had to change, but right now F1 is in full on money printing mode. For a year or two everyone thinks they are rich, but soon enough we're Zimbabwe.

#1385 Goron3

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:24

That was because they had to. It was just a consequence of the technology of the time. The engineers were trying their best to improve the technology so drivers could push harder and harder without having the 'manage' equipment. The objective - GET BETTER! As a viewer you were observing drives pushing the limits of the technology available at the time.

What we have now is VERY different. Pirelli is artificial management. I agree for the spectacle things had to change, but right now F1 is in full on money printing mode. For a year or two everyone thinks they are rich, but soon enough we're Zimbabwe.


Yeah I agree with that. That said I've gone back and watch races from previous season and it's unbelievable how boring those races were. Even 2009 which had some excitement was dull.

Bridgestones with DRS would be great imo...give it a go FIA!

#1386 hansmann

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:27

I admit I'm baised, but to me there seem to be two different things being said about the Pirellis, by team members and drivers, and the pundits .

The official line , and what people are supposed to say : 'Pirelli is doing a great job making racing more exciting' , 'It's the same for everyone' , and slight variations of the same .

Personal opinions : 'Too much talk about the tyres' , 'Tyres are too important' , 'The tyres don't allow for hard driving' .

I don't think I have ever heard anyone voicing a personal opinion on the Pirellis that was positive ; any F1 insider who doesn't quote the always same official statements, or just says nothing at all, seems to consider the current tyre policy rubbish .

Personally, I think DRS and, to a degree, Kers do enough to prevent car trains, and the Pirellis merely provide more pitstop overtakes and strategic manouvering, but zero additional on-track action .
Unless you consider those pathetic fresh vs. old tyre passes dramatic ...
Look at the really great wheel-to-wheel action - it's almost always guys on comparably good tyres, and there's been plenty of it in the past couple of seasons .

I'm just an armchair expert, but I always thought the more mechanical grip, the better the racing, and aero issues should be sorted out to make passing more doable .
No way to get this past the engineers, it seems, so now the mechanical grip gets artificially messed with to throw in a few mickey mouse overtakes .

#1387 MP422

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:35

I'm about to start watching Nascar if they don't fix this tire issue. Cars look so slow now. Mark webber's comment from Autosport article today...

"Today tyre wear was pretty severe for everyone, so obviously you go around way under the [potential of the] car.

#1388 rhukkas

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:38

I'm about to start watching Nascar if they don't fix this tire issue. Cars look so slow now. Seb Vettel's comment from Autosport article today...

"Today tyre wear was pretty severe for everyone, so obviously you go around way under the [potential of the] car.


fixed :)

#1389 massivechicken

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:47

This tyre thing is making for a great show for the casual observer, but for die hard racing fans, it is a bit of an insult.

An equivalent thing to do would be to underfill the fuel tanks by 20 litres. Then you'd have the cars trundling around slowly trying not to burn too much fuel so they may finish the race. Sound familiar?

Ahh well. All we can do is try to enjoy the spectacle this artificial circumstance has created. I get my real racing fix by watching V8 Supercars these days. F1 is more for the politics and the show.

#1390 Alx09

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:53

I don't remember Red Bull BSing the tyres five or six months ago. Back then it was all about how great their team and their car was.

Bullshit. Read my whole initial thread post, and you will see plenty of Webber being against it there. Big :up: :up: for Mark, always telling the truth like it is and not doing the PR crap.

If I hear 'adapt to the tyres' or 'same for everyone' one more time I will explode. If they said "everyone has to drive with dog shit plastered inside their visor", I guess that would be the same for everyone, and the drivers would have to adapt right? No, it's shit, stinky smelly shit.

Brilliant.

Regarding Webber's rant, I do believe that part of his motivation is the poor RB tyre treatment. They weren't complaining too much as long as they won.

I believe it's more of a case of Webber being allowed to speak his opinion freely now. He has always been against it, as you can read in the OP.

Edited by Alx09, 22 March 2013 - 11:00.


#1391 Clatter

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:54

This tyre thing is making for a great show for the casual observer, but for die hard racing fans, it is a bit of an insult.

An equivalent thing to do would be to underfill the fuel tanks by 20 litres. Then you'd have the cars trundling around slowly trying not to burn too much fuel so they may finish the race. Sound familiar?

Ahh well. All we can do is try to enjoy the spectacle this artificial circumstance has created. I get my real racing fix by watching V8 Supercars these days. F1 is more for the politics and the show.


They already do underfill the tanks.


#1392 Boing Ball

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:56

This tyre thing is making for a great show for the casual observer, but for die hard racing fans, it is a bit of an insult.

An equivalent thing to do would be to underfill the fuel tanks by 20 litres. Then you'd have the cars trundling around slowly trying not to burn too much fuel so they may finish the race. Sound familiar?


While I do generally share your sentiments about the tyres, one could ask that didn't they just kind of do that in 1980s, when the size of the fuel tank was gradually limited to 240, 220 and finally to 140 litres. The drivers had to trundle around slowly to finish the race, and quite often they failed to do that. As far as I remember, some drivers did not enjoy the situation at all back then.


#1393 icewest07

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:01

If I hear 'adapt to the tyres' or 'same for everyone' one more time I will explode. If they said "everyone has to drive with dog shit plastered inside their visor", I guess that would be the same for everyone, and the drivers would have to adapt right? No, it's shit, stinky smelly shit.

What is the point of f1 if you have to drive well under the potential of yourself and the car for the entire Grand Prix? How is THAT exciting?


Do you also complain about the engine rules, which limits the number of sets they have for the whole year?
Many around here where moaning about it when it was introduced, now that most engines maunfacturers have "mastered" their reliability we don't hear much about it.

I repeat rules are rules, if you don't like them or can't cope with the challenge of managing your equipment don't suscribe. "It's the same for everybody". Go on and explode :rolleyes:

And also why don't you complain that all teams don't have the exact same car, so that every driver on the grid can push it to the limit the same way for pure racing sake, and help fans really see who is the best ?

#1394 Alx09

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:05

Bridgestones with DRS would be great imo...give it a go FIA!

That's a compromise I'd gladly take. 2009-2010 Bridgestone-type tyres + DRS. People who want to see racing, get racing on the limit. People who want to see overtakes, get their overtakes (although fake-ish ones).

Edited by Alx09, 22 March 2013 - 11:05.


#1395 Massa_f1

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:06

+1

Get over it guys. The racing we are enjoying right now is great, and the cream still rises to the top. What is the problem exactly?



It's actually ugly to watch. The tyres are horrid this year. If they perform in the race like they did today it is not going to be fun to watch. Depends who you are I guess. I don't enjoy seeing tyres getting destroyed after so little running. Cruise round with your delta racing cause that's what your going to get if this continues. :down:

Edited by Massa_f1, 22 March 2013 - 11:21.


#1396 seahawk

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:12

Tires shedding large pieces of rubber can not be good for F1. I do not care if the cars are slower or if the drivers have to manage the tires, but the images of the tires are just not fitting the highest category of motor racing.

#1397 Longtimefan

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:12

The tyres are ruining F1, I want to see drivers racing and pushing their cars hard, not nursing the tyres lap after lap.

This is now a farce, not sure how much longer I will watch it. :(


#1398 Obi Offiah

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:15

The tyres are ruining F1, I want to see drivers racing and pushing their cars hard, not nursing the tyres lap after lap.

This is now a farce, not sure how much longer I will watch it. :(

Well Pirelli haven't been given a new contract for 2014 and onwards yet, so I envision you on your knees, hands clasped together in front of your face, looking towards the sky.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 22 March 2013 - 13:44.


#1399 Alx09

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:18

Nice one Autosport. Webber's anti-pirelli post no where to be found on the frontpage already + replaced with the story: "Pirelli downplays criticism of tyres". Almost feels a bit like this.

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#1400 akshay380

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  • Joined: June 12

Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:19

Looks like I'll start watching V8 super cars more then this FIA tire race. What a joke.