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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#1851 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 18:31

Really? Given that you've posted more than anyone else in this thread it appears you have plenty of time :eek:


Don't worry about me

You're the number 1 defender of the tyres that are providing said outcome, so I can only assume you enjoy it.


So in other words, you made up your allegations in the previous post, therefore can't back them up, and go on to assume stuff instead of arguing with what I wrote. How am I supposed to argue with that?

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#1852 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 18:41

targeting a slow delta time.


This is the essence of what is wrong with the present tire situation.




#1853 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 18:45

Secondly, what's required is increase braking zones.


They could do this very easily, very simply and cheaply: paint the areas where you want braking to be tricky.

No going backward technology wise, AND you could really liven up a lot of existing corners *for not a lot of money at all*.

Imagine a "logarithmic" strip of paint that begins at the turn in of the classic racing line on a dogleg turn. You could make it so that it almost perfectly balances out against the negative of the longer outside line, thus making *two* racing lines through a corner.

You couldn't get this effect by altering the car, and it could be tweaked to make boring corners more interesting. You could then leave high speed corners alone, and the cars would still have the safety margin of having great brakes.




#1854 midgrid

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 18:50

They could do this very easily, very simply and cheaply: paint the areas where you want braking to be tricky.

No going backward technology wise, AND you could really liven up a lot of existing corners *for not a lot of money at all*.

Imagine a "logarithmic" strip of paint that begins at the turn in of the classic racing line on a dogleg turn. You could make it so that it almost perfectly balances out against the negative of the longer outside line, thus making *two* racing lines through a corner.

You couldn't get this effect by altering the car, and it could be tweaked to make boring corners more interesting. You could then leave high speed corners alone, and the cars would still have the safety margin of having great brakes.


And this is less artificial than high-wear spec tyres and the DRS? And what would happen in wet conditions?


#1855 JaredS

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 19:11

They could do this very easily, very simply and cheaply: paint the areas where you want braking to be tricky.

No going backward technology wise, AND you could really liven up a lot of existing corners *for not a lot of money at all*.

Imagine a "logarithmic" strip of paint that begins at the turn in of the classic racing line on a dogleg turn. You could make it so that it almost perfectly balances out against the negative of the longer outside line, thus making *two* racing lines through a corner.

You couldn't get this effect by altering the car, and it could be tweaked to make boring corners more interesting. You could then leave high speed corners alone, and the cars would still have the safety margin of having great brakes.


I can't agree. Whilst the idea of something that gives two equal grip lines into a corner sounds appealing in theory, it is just too artificial and difficult to control.

I also think having generally lower grip, but consistent and stable tyres is the way to go. This too will increase braking distance and slow down cornering speeds. It used to be that fast tracks such as Spa were challenging for a driver. No longer is the case, when a rookie can take Eau Rouge flat out because of the immense grip provided by downforce and tyres.

I understand designers will always find ways to get improve downforce, but by having significant limiting factors of wing size, number of elements etc this will put a cap on overall downforce. For example, look at the exhaust angle introduced last year to prevent exhaust blown diffuser. Whilst it was only a half effort, because the angle pointing up was not enough and designers found coanda effect, the fact is it still reduced downforce levels compared to the exhaust blown diffuser.

Corners like Eau Rouge should become challenging again, not taken flat out by all like it's a scalextrix track.

#1856 mattferg

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 21:19

I read it and I had to stop reading when you equated driving flat out to a target lap time with being as easy/difficult as driving slowly to a target time.


I didn't do that at all. You basically just admitted to not reading my post and being wrong. Thanks!

#1857 nosecone

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 22:09

watching Indycar at Alabama makes me think how different it is compared to F1.

Ok tyres play a role in Indycar series too but i do not hate the new Pirelli tyres.
The really difference is that fast cars can be hold up by slow cars. I didn't see this in F1 for a some time. The only recently case i can remember was at the US GP where Vettel hold up Hamilton for quite some time. But it ended with one of the most boring passes; Hamilton pushed the button and passed Vettel very, very easily. (I'm neither HAM fan nor VET fan if u think i'm just mad due to the fact that HAm won)

However Indycar has push-to-pas but this is very different from the DRS used in F1 and it is far better and especially much more fair. It can also be used to avoid getting catched and this is not too bad. If we need a system, which helps to overtake, take this. It is fair and doesn't punish the car in front.


At the end of the year we will see statistics which says how much passing manouvres we saw. But remember some passes were really boring; a driver pressing a button and the just driving past. But also this are counted as a real passing.

However i think real racing fans are also excited if a driver needs more than one try to pass another. Long chases like we saw at the US GP are really thrilling, do you remember. DRS is far too effective. It should only help driver to come next to their rival. And if a team has a too dragy setup... well, we can't change it, so they can't pass others but this is the but of having a car with too much drag/downforce. We don't need a system, which helps even the teams with slowest top speed to overtake. We need a system which makes it just a bit easier but not too easy. And we need a system which is fair. DRS is not fair und far too effective.

Pirelli is not good but acceptable. DRS not.

RACING IS NOT JUST TO PASS ANOTHER DRIVER. If it would be you should take a chair and have a look at the motorway at sunday (for your health: please don't sit at the motorway! look at it from a bridge)

#1858 black magic

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 23:57

it would seem some deliberately refuse to understand the difference between a technical challenge and a combined physical and technical challenge for the driver.

driving on this tyres is difficult - but it is the least demanding on the driver than the sport has probably EVER seen

and we only need take the drivers words for it.

driving an eco challenge is difficult - for exactly the same reasons - one needs to be smooth, considered, deliberate, careful.

none of these attributes are why I watch F1

#1859 OO7

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 00:05

watching Indycar at Alabama makes me think how different it is compared to F1.
.
.
.
.

However Indycar has push-to-pas but this is very different from the DRS used in F1 and it is far better and especially much more fair. It can also be used to avoid getting catched and this is not too bad. If we need a system, which helps to overtake, take this. It is fair and doesn't punish the car in front.

F1 has a similar system, its called KERS.

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#1860 boldhakka

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:23

Another aspect to note is that the current tyres may perform even worse without DRS, since that would require following cars closely for a longer period of time before pulling off a passing move.

#1861 boldhakka

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:41

So it's turning out that Red Bull issued the Multi21 order because Webber was running low on fuel, not because of them being worried about the tyres.

I think we'll see some gamesmanship from teams on this matter. Teams like RBR will use opportunities like this to blame the tyres even when their issues are caused by other factors. On the other hand, I expect teams like Lotus and Ferrari to praise the tyres and support the status quo as they have a head start in figuring out the tyres. So I expect Webber and Alonso to be saying opposite things in the near future.

#1862 nosecone

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:02

F1 has a similar system, its called KERS.

yes you're right it has and this is enough. No need for DRS. If a driver is faster than another one everbody knows he will pass him. Its a wonder if not...

Edited by nosecone, 08 April 2013 - 07:06.


#1863 sharo

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:22

F1 has a similar system, its called KERS.

That will be true if during KERS usage the engine is allowed to rev a bit higher. Now it only helps acceleration but with current tyres it means applying more power through them and consequently increased load which they can't bear.

#1864 Group B

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:51

Don't worry about me

Oh I wasn't worrying, I was just pointing out the rank absurdity of your claim.

So in other words, you made up your allegations in the previous post, therefore can't back them up, and go on to assume stuff instead of arguing with what I wrote. How am I supposed to argue with that?

We've all argued with what you write, but for some yet to be disclosed reason you don't want to hear it, preferring to aggressively continue championing the 2013 tyres. That makes it difficult not to conclude that you enjoy the resulting reduction in fast driving and racing; or is there another reason? The mere size of this thread, number of driver quotes and all round unceasing tyre talk is pretty strong evidence on it's own that the new tyres are making a bigger, and more negative, impact than has happened before. Perhaps things will improve with warmer weather and the teams getting more used to them, but if not we're in for an awful lot of cruising and team orders over the next 17 races, something many fans and many drivers don't much enjoy.

#1865 LiJu914

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 11:32

Your not mistaken, but the situation at the start of the season was very similar to now. Give them a few races and these tyres will seem just as durable as last years.


How can this years tyres become as durable as last year´s, when it was Pirelli´s specific goal during the break to make this year´s tyres softer and less durable once again?

Edited by LiJu914, 08 April 2013 - 11:34.


#1866 Requiem84

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:17

How can this years tyres become as durable as last year´s, when it was Pirelli´s specific goal during the break to make this year´s tyres softer and less durable once again?


Because these F1 teams employ the smartest engineers in the world. As they understand the tires better, they find ways to make them last longer.

Will they be as durable as the tires were at the end of last season, maybe. But they will definitely last longer than now.

#1867 FPV GTHO

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 16:05

That will be true if during KERS usage the engine is allowed to rev a bit higher. Now it only helps acceleration but with current tyres it means applying more power through them and consequently increased load which they can't bear.


Does the IndyCar system increase revs or just turbo boost?

#1868 sharo

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 17:05

Does the IndyCar system increase revs or just turbo boost?

I don't know. What I wrote is what I imagine as a true push-to-pass implementation. For an overtake there's a minimum speed differential needed. But no matter the additional power from KERS, the engine hits the limiter at the selected gear ratio. So the speed differential is not big enough and only acceleration and power vs darg play a role in getting some speed advantage. The DRS system does it in some (also artificial) way by reducing drag and allowing a car to reach higher speed. But again it depends on the selected gear ratios.
If we look at the past season RBR usually opted for better traction and achieving overall shorter time per lap by not gearing the car for maximum straight speed. The strategy was to qualify in front, open a gap after the start thanks to the better speed per lap and then control the race. If, for whatever reason, their car fell back or was caught by a competitor they had difficult times overtaking or defending a position.

#1869 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 20:42

Oh I wasn't worrying, I was just pointing out the rank absurdity of your claim.


It's not my choice what to spend my time on? I like to discuss certain aspects of the tyre topic as long as it's fun and as long as there is a resemblance of a discussion. I won't usually spend my time on ad hominems. I never flamed you, I don't know why you can't return the courtesy.

We've all argued with what you write, but for some yet to be disclosed reason you don't want to hear it, preferring to aggressively continue championing the 2013 tyres.


Maybe you have forgotten what you argued about with me. Most of my posts were in response to absurd claims that Pirelli is doing things without the consent of the F1 leadership, and I have spent considerable time digging up old quotes on many aspects, which should be interesting regardless of one's opinion on the 2013 tyres. Most of the rests of my posts were in response to claims that tyres should be magically without influence, or to some opinions about F1 history. I'm pretty sure I never championed the 2013 tyres. I invite you once again to present quotes that I did, if you are going to claim so. So far you obviously failed and prefer to repeat your baseless allegations.

That makes it difficult not to conclude that you enjoy the resulting reduction in fast driving and racing; or is there another reason?


Again, argue with what I wrote not with what you are imagining.

The mere size of this thread, number of driver quotes and all round unceasing tyre talk is pretty strong evidence on it's own that the new tyres are making a bigger, and more negative, impact than has happened before. Perhaps things will improve with warmer weather and the teams getting more used to them, but if not we're in for an awful lot of cruising and team orders over the next 17 races, something many fans and many drivers don't much enjoy.


The size of this thread is evidence that there are approx. 20 people on this BB who like to discuss it. I said it before that the people who watched the Malaysia quali on RTL Germany (in the early morning and not likely very casual fans) and cared to voted, voted 84:14 in favor of the tyres. Now this is not an argument pro or con these tyres, but it does give evidence that the people who are con in this thread (or other forums) may not be exactly the majority, for better or worse.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 08 April 2013 - 20:47.


#1870 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 20:46

Alesi (who is paid by Pirelli):

Formula 1 drivers should stop complaining about tyres because the best teams will still be the ones winning the races, according to former grand prix driver Jean Alesi.

Alesi, who now works as an ambassador for Pirelli, believes the Italian tyre manufacturer is producing exactly what it has been asked for to help improve the Formula 1 show.

The Frenchman thinks there is no point in teams and drivers complaining about the current generation of tyres.

"One thing that doesn't change at all is that the best teams will always be the most successful," said Alesi.

"So there is no point for anybody to complain because this will always quite rightly be the case, whatever you do with the regulations."

Alesi added that striking a balance between outright speed and tyre management is nothing new.

"The drivers will have to find the best compromise between performance and degradation, which is exactly the way that it has always been in Formula 1," he said.

"I raced through many different tyre regulations and suppliers during my career - even in the era of qualifying tyres.

"And while they all had different aspects, Pirelli is the company that has supplied the most entertainment to all the fans: so far we have seen two fantastic races.

"This is exactly what was asked, and in my opinion just what the sport needed."


The same article has an Edd Straw comment on these Alesi quotes, the most interesting part IMHO being this:

Tyres have always been a convenient thing to complain about, particularly for those struggling. I could supply hours and hours and recordings of drivers moaning about Bridgestone tyres holding them back from the pre-2011 era.

If you're not convinced, just do a quick Google search for drivers moaning about the mysterious 'bad' set of tyres that generally coincided with a disappointing stint or qualifying lap that could not possibly be the fault of the driver.

It's not the same complaint as now, but the fact is that tyres have always been and will continue to be a popular 'neutral' target for moaning in the single supplier era.



#1871 rhukkas

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 00:07

On Sunday Rossi pretty much single-handedly demonstrated the art of racing, and made F1's attempt at spicing up the show look as hollow as a chocolate easter egg. "The emporer" he cried. A rye smile appeared on his face as he realised.... "he is naked".

It is of course too much to ask F1 to be like that. There's an inherent difference in the dynamic of cars, but my heart beat was pretty damn high watching Vale come through the pack. To be honest I was pumped cheering on Scott Redding too. So this was that elusive feeling I was missing so much, which I had long forgotten, there it was again - actual racing.




#1872 boldhakka

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 01:53

Alesi (who is paid by Pirelli):



The same article has an Edd Straw comment on these Alesi quotes, the most interesting part IMHO being this:


So do you have any thoughts on the quotes? Perhaps analyze the pros and cons yourself?

The argument that it is the same for everybody, or that the best teams and drivers are still winning says nothing about the tyres. The best teams and drivers usually end up on top because they are the most adaptable and have the resources to figure things out quickly. If you have a monkey shooting cannons on every alternate corner, the same best teams will eventually end up on top as they figure out counter-measure quicker than their rivals. That doesn't mean that a monkey shooting a cannon is a good or acceptable idea in F1.

And no, drivers really haven't been complaining about tyres in this manner before. Not only is the volume of criticism higher, the type of criticism is different as well. The criticisms are very specific. Nothing like this has been seen before from the drivers. And the criticisms aren't to excuse their performance in any given qualifying or race, it's a whole different type, mostly pertaining to enjoyment and comparing to the speeds in other series.

Edited by boldhakka, 09 April 2013 - 02:00.


#1873 Atreiu

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 03:24

Edd Straw is what Id call a 'chapa branca' journalist and I really cant find him credible anymore. Especially when it comes to Pirelli.

#1874 Sakae

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:15

Alesi (who is paid by Pirelli):

The same article has an Edd Straw comment on these Alesi quotes, the most interesting part IMHO being this:

Both gentlemen explain why no-one should complain, because Pirelli are perfect or at least not worse than anything in the past, however I am not sure whether they addressed question how current specification supports and complements current vehicle and driver's racing potential, because consensuses among active drivers is, that they don't. It is a sad day when someone needs to explain to both of them that there is significant difference between getting best out of tires (by best teams notwithstanding), and getting best out of whole system.

#1875 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:24

So do you have any thoughts on the quotes? Perhaps analyze the pros and cons yourself?


No. What is it suddenly in this thread with the requirements?


#1876 boldhakka

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:49

No.


Okay... May I ask if you are posting any quotes about Pirelli you run into, or are you applying some sanity filter to them before posting. Perhaps analyzing whether they have a good point or not, and only posting the ones you think have a good point.

In all of your "analysis" oriented posts (many in response to Sakae), you keep bringing up the quotes you've dug up, as though the very existence of the quotes should be enough to convince everyone of something. As you can see, some quotes are quite illogical, while others have a good point (maybe some you've posted yourself), so I'm wondering if you're thinking about the content of the posts in addition to simply posting them.

#1877 Alx09

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:51

Alesi, who now works as an ambassador for Pirelli, believes the Italian tyre manufacturer is producing exactly what it has been asked for to help improve the Formula 1 show.


No shit?

#1878 Group B

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 12:38

Again, argue with what I wrote not with what you are imagining.

:lol:
It's what you write that points extremely strongly to that conclusion.

#1879 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 13:08

It is of course too much to ask F1 to be like that.

It is. So I dont get your point.

Anyways, I think I might have to check out DTM this year. I've tried to like it in the past, but its often so processional with most of the passing done in the pits.

I was reading the little editorial by the Autosport columnist about the introduction of DRS to DTM and he was saying DRS has killed the art of defensive driving. Which is nonsense. So many people act like DRS is just an automatic pass every time, when in reality, it just provides more opportunity. Most applications of DRS do not result in overtakes and it actually allows the drivers more chances to practice their defensive driving when in the past all they usually had to do was stay on the racing line and not make a mistake.

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#1880 trogggy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 13:09

:lol:
It's what you write that points extremely strongly to that conclusion.

If you want to argue a point that someone makes - try quoting it and then state your argument. That way there's no confusion.
And if your conclusion is sensible it will be there for all to see. Of course the downside is that if it isn't...

#1881 PretentiousBread

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 13:24

Again, argue with what I wrote not with what you are imagining.


You've made 80+ posts in this thread, more than anyone else, almost all of which directly counter any anti-pirelli/anti-tyre conservation arguments, usually with a quote that defends Pirelli/FIA/endurance style racing. What on earth drives this unless you are in favour of the current state of affairs?

#1882 ApexMouse

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 13:27

Okay... May I ask if you are posting any quotes about Pirelli you run into, or are you applying some sanity filter to them before posting. Perhaps analyzing whether they have a good point or not, and only posting the ones you think have a good point.

In all of your "analysis" oriented posts (many in response to Sakae), you keep bringing up the quotes you've dug up, as though the very existence of the quotes should be enough to convince everyone of something. As you can see, some quotes are quite illogical, while others have a good point (maybe some you've posted yourself), so I'm wondering if you're thinking about the content of the posts in addition to simply posting them.


Good god.

He was just posting a link to keep the discussion going even pointing out that the source is utterly biased. He isn't obligated to provide an analysis. The only quotes he ever gave to sakae were ones that proved what Pirelli were asked for, which were of course duly ignored despite the effort he went to. He's one of the very finest posters on the entire board, people should cut him some slack.

#1883 BoschKurve

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 13:38

As long as Jean Alesi is receiving money from Pirelli, he wouldn't be disingenuous now....would he?

He probably is wishing such a lottery system existed when he drove as he might've had another win or two.

But I think the Pirelli tires sum up everything wrong with F1 in a nutshell. There's this belief that's become more commonplace in recent years that racing cannot be enjoyable unless you see constant position changes. Pirelli tires are aimed at keeping the attention of the "fans" who likely watched the opening 10 laps and the closing 10 laps because the middle bunch of laps can't be enjoyable unless there are position changes. These tires are sort of like NASCAR's imaginary debris caution flags; a way to try and keep a portion of the field close together to create artificial excitement.

#1884 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:07

There's this belief that's become more commonplace in recent years that racing cannot be enjoyable unless you see constant position changes.

Its more complex than that.

For one, position changes are nice. It keeps things interesting. Dont pretend like they dont.

Two, the biggest complaint was the lack of opportunity to make these position changes. Passing was too difficult. A car could be up to 2 seconds faster and still not be able to get by. The actual potential for position changes was reduced massively and that sucks.

Its nothing like fake cautions in NASCAR because its not disadvantageous to anyone(unlike a fake caution which wipes out any lead you had) and you're 100% wrong about the tires only appealing to people who could only watch certain segments of a race.

#1885 JaredS

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:18

What's so great about passing someone because their tyres fall off the cliff over passing someone in the pits? No difference IMO, both are boring as batsh*t.

#1886 trogggy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:40

What's so great about passing someone because their tyres fall off the cliff ...?

How often has that happened so far?

#1887 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 14:59

What's so great about passing someone because their tyres fall off the cliff over passing someone in the pits? No difference IMO, both are boring as batsh*t.

Except most proper track position passes(ones that aren't due to one person not having pitted yet) dont occur because of somebody's tires falling off a cliff but from genuine "I'm just faster than you" pace.

A lot of people completely exaggerate the state of the racing nowadays out of idealistic attitudes.

Edit: Totally missed troggy's post saying the same thing.

Edited by Seanspeed, 09 April 2013 - 14:59.


#1888 JaredS

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:10

Except most proper track position passes(ones that aren't due to one person not having pitted yet) dont occur because of somebody's tires falling off a cliff but from genuine "I'm just faster than you" pace.

A lot of people completely exaggerate the state of the racing nowadays out of idealistic attitudes.

Edit: Totally missed troggy's post saying the same thing.


So the Pirellis aren't contributing to the spectacle then. Just wish people would make up their mind.

#1889 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:39

So the Pirellis aren't contributing to the spectacle then. Just wish people would make up their mind.

Yup, thats what I said.....

Edited by Seanspeed, 09 April 2013 - 15:39.


#1890 Group B

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:40

How often has that happened so far?

Several times; but slightly more to the point is the the fact that it hasn't happened more often because everyone's backing off to cruise mode lest it does. Drivers and teams are terrified of driving fast, which strikes me as pretty perverse.

#1891 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 15:45

Several times; but slightly more to the point is the the fact that it hasn't happened more often because everyone's backing off to cruise mode lest it does. Drivers and teams are terrified of driving fast, which strikes me as pretty perverse.

You guys would hate bike racing if you disliked the competition going a fair bit slower than they could in order to make the tires last.

Edited by Seanspeed, 09 April 2013 - 15:46.


#1892 trogggy

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:06

Several times;

Really?
Could you give 2 or 3 of the best examples?






Edit: apparently not.

Edited by trogggy, 09 April 2013 - 17:52.


#1893 Group B

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:08

You guys would hate bike racing if you disliked the competition going a fair bit slower than they could in order to make the tires last.

Nothing wrong with tyre management; the issue most people have is with the nature and extent of degredation. The type of scenario a lot of fans (not to mention drivers) have in mind is driver X leaving the pits in second place, 10 seconds behind the older-tyred driver Y with 15 laps left, but being afraid to chase him for fear of finishing tenth. The punisment is extreme, unpredictable and sudden. All that needed is for the tyres to go off 50% less and do so a bit more gently/preditably, bringing back a better balance between pushing and management.

#1894 SpaMaster

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:19

Nothing wrong with tyre management; the issue most people have is with the nature and extent of degredation. The type of scenario a lot of fans (not to mention drivers) have in mind is driver X leaving the pits in second place, 10 seconds behind the older-tyred driver Y with 15 laps left, but being afraid to chase him for fear of finishing tenth.

Sorry, that has never happened.

The punisment is extreme, unpredictable and sudden.

Again, this is not the norm. Unpredictable and sudden - can't think of a single instance. If that has been the norm, I would like you to point 5 instances.

All that needed is for the tyres to go off 50% less

How did you arrive at that number? People would still have problem with that.

and do so a bit more gently/preditably, ..

Prove with multiple examples that it has been otherwise.

#1895 Lone

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:23

Nothing wrong with tyre management; the issue most people have is with the nature and extent of degredation. The type of scenario a lot of fans (not to mention drivers) have in mind is driver X leaving the pits in second place, 10 seconds behind the older-tyred driver Y with 15 laps left, but being afraid to chase him for fear of finishing tenth. The punisment is extreme, unpredictable and sudden. All that needed is for the tyres to go off 50% less and do so a bit more gently/preditably, bringing back a better balance between pushing and management.

You mean like in Australia when Alonso was trying to chase Down Raikkonen?

#1896 Lone

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:23

Nothing wrong with tyre management; the issue most people have is with the nature and extent of degredation. The type of scenario a lot of fans (not to mention drivers) have in mind is driver X leaving the pits in second place, 10 seconds behind the older-tyred driver Y with 15 laps left, but being afraid to chase him for fear of finishing tenth. The punisment is extreme, unpredictable and sudden. All that needed is for the tyres to go off 50% less and do so a bit more gently/preditably, bringing back a better balance between pushing and management.

You mean like in Australia when Alonso was trying to chase Down Raikkonen?

#1897 boldhakka

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:29

Good god.

He was just posting a link to keep the discussion going even pointing out that the source is utterly biased. He isn't obligated to provide an analysis. The only quotes he ever gave to sakae were ones that proved what Pirelli were asked for, which were of course duly ignored despite the effort he went to. He's one of the very finest posters on the entire board, people should cut him some slack.


Meh, I expect more. Sue me.

Those quotes are meaningless to Sakae. That's my point. The quotes themselves don't mean much, it's the content that matters, and the source, and in what context they were brought up, whether they are official team requests or simply opinions of a team member ... All of which require some filtering and analysis. Yet he (and you) keep pretending to be surprised that Sakae doesn't find those quotes sufficient.

:lol:

#1898 JaredS

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 16:50

Drivers should be punished for abusing the tyres. Sliding everywhere, locking up severely etc. not punished because they dare to drive more than at 8 tenths.

What was Horner packing poo about in Malaysia? Seb and Mark ruining their tyres. Brawn was worried about his drivers fuel situation sure, but also that the tyres would drop dead at the merest sign of a fight.

Several drivers have come out and said they're driving well below their and the car's limit.

Good God, I'm not asking for granite tyres that last forever but surely there's a happy medium between that and the current ones that driving to a delta, afraid to fight, worrying about quali runs and how many fresh sets they will have for the race.

#1899 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 18:50

Okay... May I ask if you are posting any quotes about Pirelli you run into, or are you applying some sanity filter to them before posting. Perhaps analyzing whether they have a good point or not, and only posting the ones you think have a good point.

In all of your "analysis" oriented posts (many in response to Sakae), you keep bringing up the quotes you've dug up, as though the very existence of the quotes should be enough to convince everyone of something. As you can see, some quotes are quite illogical, while others have a good point (maybe some you've posted yourself), so I'm wondering if you're thinking about the content of the posts in addition to simply posting them.


It depends, sometimes I post them because they support a point I want to make, other times I just find them interesting and/or want to see what others think. That goes for any thread I post in. WTF is wrong about that? I thought the statements are interesting, without having a ready-made opinion about them. I don't think this thread only allows anti-Pirelli quotes, because that's the general rule of the BB. IMHO a sensible discussion requires to hear all sides, and if Alesi (a former racer, in case you forgot) has something to say, it is by definition interesting. Just because he is paid by Pirelli does not make his statement invalid, in the same way the fact that RB pays Webber does not make his quotes invalid either.

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#1900 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 18:51

:lol:
It's what you write that points extremely strongly to that conclusion.


I take this as final proof that you don't have a shred of evidence that I ever championed the 2013 Pirellis. (and you cannot, because I didn't)