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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#1901 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 18:54

You've made 80+ posts in this thread, more than anyone else, almost all of which directly counter any anti-pirelli/anti-tyre conservation arguments, usually with a quote that defends Pirelli/FIA/endurance style racing. What on earth drives this unless you are in favour of the current state of affairs?


Did you count other peoples' posts as well? How many did Group B make? This is really ridiculous.
the vast majority of my posts were in the interest of what I perceive as intellectual honesty: hate the Pirellis if you want to, but don't base your arguments on the fantasy of things like Pirelli acting contrary to what FIA and FOM want. There is no right to being left alone after making stupid claims, it's kind of what a BB is about to be challenged

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 09 April 2013 - 18:55.


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#1902 Sakae

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 19:16

@KnucklesAgain: By FiA we should understand a Technical Working Group with triumvirate membership? If so, which teams were sitting on the committee, do you know?

#1903 Boxerevo

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 19:26

As long as Jean Alesi is receiving money from Pirelli, he wouldn't be disingenuous now....would he?

He probably is wishing such a lottery system existed when he drove as he might've had another win or two.

But I think the Pirelli tires sum up everything wrong with F1 in a nutshell. There's this belief that's become more commonplace in recent years that racing cannot be enjoyable unless you see constant position changes. Pirelli tires are aimed at keeping the attention of the "fans" who likely watched the opening 10 laps and the closing 10 laps because the middle bunch of laps can't be enjoyable unless there are position changes. These tires are sort of like NASCAR's imaginary debris caution flags; a way to try and keep a portion of the field close together to create artificial excitement.

I totally agree with you.

Entertainment is the priority,F1 is a business.

#1904 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 19:33

@KnucklesAgain: By FiA we should understand a Technical Working Group with triumvirate membership? If so, which teams were sitting on the committee, do you know?


I don't actually, and FWIW I do not at all agree with the murky leadership structure and the way decisions in F1 are made through backdoor deals. But that is for another thread, and the current teams all were either complicit in making F1 what it is now, or knew what they signed up for when they joined. I find it completely unconvincing that Bernie and whatever counts as the regulator would let Pirelli create tyres against their wishes for 3 years in a row. I believe that if the design requirements had been actually different, and if Pirellis were the way they are solely because of incompetence in fulfilling these different requirements, Bernie would not have hesitated a second and would even have brought in a smaller company like Dunlop in case Bridgestone and Michelin were unavailable. Just the way he gambled on Caterham et al. when it suited him.

I don't need to see the contract for this, in the same way as I believe F1 exists even though I have not seen the actual written Concorde Agreement.

#1905 Sakae

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 19:53

I don't actually, and FWIW I do not at all agree with the murky leadership structure and the way decisions in F1 are made through backdoor deals. But that is for another thread, and the current teams all were either complicit in making F1 what it is now, or knew what they signed up for when they joined. I find it completely unconvincing that Bernie and whatever counts as the regulator would let Pirelli create tyres against their wishes for 3 years in a row. I believe that if the design requirements had been actually different, and if Pirellis were the way they are solely because of incompetence in fulfilling these different requirements, Bernie would not have hesitated a second and would even have brought in a smaller company like Dunlop in case Bridgestone and Michelin were unavailable. Just the way he gambled on Caterham et al. when it suited him.

I don't need to see the contract for this, in the same way as I believe F1 exists even though I have not seen the actual written Concorde Agreement.

Thank you, but admittedly it appears that I am confused who is actually in charge of F1 on its technical side.

#1906 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 19:57

Thank you, but admittedly it appears that I am confused who is actually in charge of F1 on its technical side.


Why would this even be a technical decision?

#1907 Group B

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 20:03

I take this as final proof that you don't have a shred of evidence that I ever championed the 2013 Pirellis. (and you cannot, because I didn't)

No? Strange then that you have appointed yourself their defender in chief, filling this thread with arguments, counter arguments, spin and condemnation for anyone daring to complain about them and their effect on this year's racing - continually increasing your gap as the thread's leading poster. If this is your idea of indifferent I'd love to see a thread about something you take a position on. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, and forums are all about debate, but at least have the balls to admit your (pro Pirelli) position.

Answer me a couple of straight questions: do you think F1 would be better if drivers spent less time on the edge? Do you think it would be better with more team orders?



#1908 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 20:16

Answer me a couple of straight questions: do you think F1 would be better if drivers spent less time on the edge? Do you think it would be better with more team orders?

You're just baiting with those questions.

#1909 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 20:19

No? Strange then that you have appointed yourself their defender in chief, filling this thread with arguments, counter arguments, spin and condemnation for anyone daring to complain about them and their effect on this year's racing - continually increasing your gap as the thread's leading poster. If this is your idea of indifferent I'd love to see a thread about something you take a position on. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, and forums are all about debate, but at least have the balls to admit your (pro Pirelli) position.


This needs no comment

Answer me a couple of straight questions: do you think F1 would be better if drivers spent less time on the edge? Do you think it would be better with more team orders?


Even though I really have no reason to continue a discussion with you, I will answer to show my good will:

First question: Not necessarily, and obviously there is clearly a lower limit to what's healthy. Trying to make it sound as if I (or anyone actually) had ever said that less time on the edge is in itself a good thing, is creating a straw man argument. On the flipside, spending more time on the edge is not a good thing in itself either, and there is also a limit to what's healthy. At least if we are talking about the historical and the factual F1, and not a fantasy series.

I don't know what team orders have to do with this topic, and even my good will has a limit, so I will not answer this attempt to troll me.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 09 April 2013 - 20:20.


#1910 Group B

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 20:32

This needs no comment



Even though I really have no reason to continue a discussion with you, I will answer to show my good will:

First question: Not necessarily, and obviously there is clearly a lower limit to what's healthy. Trying to make it sound as if I (or anyone actually) had ever said that less time on the edge is in itself a good thing, is creating a straw man argument. On the flipside, spending more time on the edge is not a good thing in itself either, and there is also a limit to what's healthy. At least if we are talking about the historical and the factual F1, and not a fantasy series.

I don't know what team orders have to do with this topic, and even my good will has a limit, so I will not answer this attempt to troll me.

Team orders are extremely relevant, because the more prone the tyres are to disintigration under stress the more teams will order their drivers not to chase and/or engage each other. There is a perfectly possible happy medium to be found; I agree with you that we don't them them flat out every lap, but as it stands I firmly believe it's gone too far the other way, a view echoed and reinforced by what the likes of Hamilton are telling us.

#1911 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 20:38

Team orders are extremely relevant, because the more prone the tyres are to disintigration under stress the more teams will order their drivers not to chase and/or engage each other. There is a perfectly possible happy medium to be found; I agree with you that we don't them them flat out every lap, but as it stands I firmly believe it's gone too far the other way, a view echoed and reinforced by what the likes of Hamilton are telling us.


The longest string of clear and contractually regulated team orders in my memory happened on non-Pirelli control tyres and during a tyre war.


#1912 sharo

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 20:45

So many people act like DRS is just an automatic pass every time, when in reality, it just provides more opportunity. Most applications of DRS do not result in overtakes and it actually allows the drivers more chances to practice their defensive driving when in the past all they usually had to do was stay on the racing line and not make a mistake.

What you say about DRS is valid only if both cars are on relatively equal resource left tyres. They both can use KERS and due to rev limiting even lowered by DRS drag is not enough to achieve every time the required speed differential. Especially if the defending driver is skilled.
The moment one of them or both are on the threshold of not having enough tyre life for the planned strategy
a/ the defender gives up
b/ the attacker gives up and sits behind expecting a chance
c/ they both give up until the next pit stop
A driver normally has 1 to max 3 passing attempts before his tyre situation becomes critical. This has never been so before.


#1913 Sakae

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 20:45

Why would this even be a technical decision?

Aren't technical regulations written for FiA by a TWG (consisting from representation of three parties; FOM, FiA and teams)? Tire spec seems technical case enough for me, and certainly a subject for TWG, but what do I know.

Edited by Sakae, 09 April 2013 - 20:47.


#1914 Group B

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 20:49

The longest string of clear and contractually regulated team orders in my memory happened on non-Pirelli control tyres and during a tyre war.

I assume you're aiming that at early 2000s Ferrari, which was an exceptional circumstance and not really addressing the current point, but hey ho, I'll play; Assuming that's what you're referring to, it begs the questions did you enjoy it and would you like to see it back again and from all teams?

#1915 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 21:04

I assume you're aiming that at early 2000s Ferrari, which was an exceptional circumstance and not really addressing the current point, but hey ho, I'll play; Assuming that's what you're referring to, it begs the questions did you enjoy it and would you like to see it back again and from all teams?


Point was that I think that many more factors are at play, and you can have team orders for all kinds of reasons. Singling out the current tyres seems a bit beside the point when you are against team orders. Which is why I didn't find the question very relevant to begin with. As for whether I enjoy them, you are obviously asking a loaded question with ulterior motives. There is nothing to hide though: I think team orders are inevitable and I enjoy watching how the play out, and especially those occasions when they collapse and take the team down with them. It's all part of the drama of F1 for me.

#1916 Seanspeed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 21:18

What you say about DRS is valid only if both cars are on relatively equal resource left tyres. They both can use KERS and due to rev limiting even lowered by DRS drag is not enough to achieve every time the required speed differential. Especially if the defending driver is skilled.
The moment one of them or both are on the threshold of not having enough tyre life for the planned strategy
a/ the defender gives up
b/ the attacker gives up and sits behind expecting a chance
c/ they both give up until the next pit stop
A driver normally has 1 to max 3 passing attempts before his tyre situation becomes critical. This has never been so before.

1 to 3 passing attempts is more than they often used to get.

And just watch the races. You'll see drivers defending still plenty.

Edited by Seanspeed, 09 April 2013 - 21:21.


#1917 PretentiousBread

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 21:18

Did you count other peoples' posts as well? How many did Group B make? This is really ridiculous.
the vast majority of my posts were in the interest of what I perceive as intellectual honesty: hate the Pirellis if you want to, but don't base your arguments on the fantasy of things like Pirelli acting contrary to what FIA and FOM want. There is no right to being left alone after making stupid claims, it's kind of what a BB is about to be challenged


Hardly, it's plain to see here: http://forums.autosp...a...ho&t=155428

Intellectual honesty? No, I haven't seen you once say anything that isn't simply pro-status quo. So your entire line of posts are against the apparent intellectual dishonesty of those who have a problem with the current tyres and the type of racing they enforce on the drivers, yet now you claim to sit on the fence, like you're Mr Objective? Nonsense. Talk about intellectual dishonesty. The difference with Group B is that he's put his flag in the sand, your position at this point is completely ambiguous.

Secondly, I think we all accept FIA/FOM wanted degradable tyres that create multi-pit stop races, however they never specifically asked for tyres that force the driver to drive so far under the limits of his car, sometimes for the majority of a race in order to be competitive. That is the main issue here, it's a debate over the essence of racing. The powers that be may or may not be content with this farcical situation, but many of us aren't, and I consider myself in good company given that most of the drivers, Mark Hughes and Nigel Roebuck just to mention a few notables back up what i've always said since day one, that this isn't real racing, or at best is a diluted, facsimile of racing.

#1918 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 21:38

Hardly, it's plain to see here: http://forums.autosp...a...ho&t=155428


OMG I committed the crime of posting 94 posts against Sakae's 84, plus Alx09's 78, etc. An injustice and an outrage if I have ever seen one!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Intellectual honesty? No, I haven't seen you once say anything that isn't simply pro-status quo.


What has one to do with the other? Fact is that I provided lots of quotes clearly contradicting some of the myths that certain posters tried to establish. The contents of my posts are certainly influenced by opponents - there is little need to post much anti-status quo here, don't you think? Besides, I don't have too much to complain about, though I very much hope that Pirelli is right and the situation stabilizes similar to how it did in 2012. At the moment we are currently in danger of this whole thing going wrong.

So your entire line of posts are against the apparent intellectual dishonesty of those who have a problem with the current tyres and the type of racing they enforce on the drivers,


Did I say entire?

yet now you claim to sit on the fence, like you're Mr Objective?


Not at all

Nonsense.


Indeed

Talk about intellectual dishonesty. The difference with Group B is that he's put his flag in the sand, your position at this point is completely ambiguous.


Ah, so you are of the persuasion of considering it deceitful and weak to try and see beyond black and white, and to acknowledge the ambiguousness of reality. Some good you lot have done in the world.

Secondly, I think we all accept FIA/FOM wanted degradable tyres that create multi-pit stop races,


We all :lol: I've been having this discussion with Sakae for at least a year, and I don't think he is yet convinced.

however they never specifically asked for tyres that force the driver to drive so far under the limits of his car, sometimes for the majority of a race in order to be competitive.


I have presented lots of quotes by Whitmarsh asking for trouble as recently as November 2012, and lots of info about reasons for complications like no test car, which anyone with some rationality needs to accept as having an influence. What the contract says neither you nor I know, so quit writing as if you did. It's easy to see through.

That is the main issue here, it's a debate over the essence of racing. The powers that be may or may not be content with this farcical situation, but many of us aren't, and I consider myself in good company given that most of the drivers, Mark Hughes and Nigel Roebuck just to mention a few notables back up what i've always said since day one, that this isn't real racing, or at best is a diluted, facsimile of racing.


I'm afraid you don't have sole authority about the debate topics, and this thread has been home to many different debates concurrently over 40+pages, from all sides.


#1919 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 21:56

In F1 today the teams have to manage the engines to ensure they only use their quota, the gearboxes for the same reason, the fuel because the cars need to carry everything they use, and tyres because they have both a limited life and supply.

At certain stages of any race the teams and drivers will have to manage these resources to ensure that they last the entire stint/race/event. The extent to which the drivers and teams are managing one or another of these resources we are unlikely to know until and unless they let us know in a press release or interview. We know that at some events the teams will anticipate a safety car and fuel short, for example. At another they may need to save engine revs for a real killer like Canada or Monza. The first ten cars will start the race on used tyres so again, they need to manage those.

It's just another aspect of a race weekend and I honestly don't see the big fuss. Take away whichever of these factors you dislike the most and you reduce some of the uncertainty. You might not hear so much unseemly whining from the millionaires who have to suffer through these awful events, which would be nice, but I don't doubt that the complaints will still be flying freely here. I don't believe it matters that they are driving at '8/10ths' if they are all doing so. It makes the sport much more of a chess match and for me increases the interest, much like those nice hidden technical innovations from the 1930's.

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#1920 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 22:00

A warning; please do not make this discussion about other posters. If you can't play the ball instead of the man, I suggest you keep out.

#1921 PretentiousBread

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 22:25

I have presented lots of quotes by Whitmarsh asking for trouble as recently as November 2012, and lots of info about reasons for complications like no test car, which anyone with some rationality needs to accept as having an influence. What the contract says neither you nor I know, so quit writing as if you did. It's easy to see through.


As instructed, we'll leave out the personal slants.

You're not seriously implying that it's a reasonable possibility that FIA/FOM requested that the drivers are specifically made to drive at '8 tenths'? That's ridiculous. It's a hugely unfortunate byproduct of the decision to ask a tyre supplier to produce tyres on the cheap that degrade to create multi stop races. That's what is annoying me. I don't believe for a second however that this was quite what they wanted, but I do believe that they don't care so long as it's good for 'the show'.

#1922 BackOnTop

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 03:54

Hard to please
http://en.espnf1.com...html?CMP=chrome

I remember sitting at turn one at the Circuit de Catalunya in 2010 seeing the result of the problem replayed time and time again in front of me.

Jenson Button - in a much faster McLaren - could not stay close enough to the slower Michael Schumacher to make a move under braking. The car's performance was affected through the fast final corner and there was no realistic way of passing the Mercedes unless Schumacher made a mistake.

Lewis Hamilton emerged alongside Sebastian Vettel from his one and only pit-stop and held off the German through turn one, everyone watching knew there was unlikely to be a way back for Vettel in the remaining 47 laps. That was despite the Red Bull being the fastest car to the tune of almost a second in qualifying.

Of course, the straw that broke the camel's back was the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix at the end of the year, when Fernando Alonso and Mark Webber both got stuck behind Vitaly Petrov's Renault for 39 laps which allowed Vettel to sneak in to win the championship. By that point the sport couldn't wait for the arrival of Pirelli and its rapidly-degrading tyres to spice up the racing and open up more overtaking opportunities.

Fast forward to the start of 2013 and we had enjoyed two seasons of hugely exciting racing. As human beings we tend to look back on past events through rose-tinted spectacles, but the tedium of the Ferrari-dominated era in the early 2000s should not be forgotten. Jean Alesi is now Pirelli's brand ambassador and while he may well be biased, as a veteran of 201 races for six different teams with four different tyre suppliers he's well qualified to comment on the impact of the tyres.

"From a tyre point of view, the drivers will have to find the best compromise between performance and degradation, which is exactly the way that it has always been in Formula One," he said. "I raced through many different tyre regulations and suppliers during my career - even in the era of qualifying tyres - and while they all had different aspects, Pirelli is the company that has supplied the most entertainment to all the fans: so far we have seen two fantastic races.

"This is exactly what was asked, and in my opinion just what the sport needed. One thing that doesn't change at all is that the best teams will always be the most successful, so there is no point for anybody to complain because this will always quite rightly be the case, whatever you do with the regulations."

Edited by BackOnTop, 10 April 2013 - 04:45.


#1923 BackOnTop

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:49

http://www.f1today.n...ntage-for-lotus?

Some have suggested that Pirelli's 2013 tyres suit the Melbourne-winning black and red E21 best of all, because the R30 and Lotus' 2013 machine share the same basic design philosophy. "It's obvious that the Pirelli tyres are designed for this type of car," Red Bull's Dr Helmut Marko said last month. "The Lotus of today has the same DNA."

Former Williams driver and Austrian Wurz, however, thinks that argument is invalid. "Each team could have made a test car available to Pirelli," he told Spox. "But no one else wanted to. I don't think they (Lotus) get a benefit," added Wurz. "These are standard tyres; everyone has the same number of tests, the same amount of time to adjust to them and develop. They're all dealing with the same problem, which is trying to outsmart the competition and find an advantage. "It's an opportunity, not a disadvantage."

Edited by BackOnTop, 10 April 2013 - 04:50.


#1924 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:38

As instructed, we'll leave out the personal slants.
(...)


No comment, and end of.

#1925 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:43

http://www.f1today.n...ntage-for-lotus?

Some have suggested that Pirelli's 2013 tyres suit the Melbourne-winning black and red E21 best of all, because the R30 and Lotus' 2013 machine share the same basic design philosophy. "It's obvious that the Pirelli tyres are designed for this type of car," Red Bull's Dr Helmut Marko said last month. "The Lotus of today has the same DNA."

Former Williams driver and Austrian Wurz, however, thinks that argument is invalid. "Each team could have made a test car available to Pirelli," he told Spox. "But no one else wanted to. I don't think they (Lotus) get a benefit," added Wurz. "These are standard tyres; everyone has the same number of tests, the same amount of time to adjust to them and develop. They're all dealing with the same problem, which is trying to outsmart the competition and find an advantage. "It's an opportunity, not a disadvantage."


BackOnTop, you do realize that you posted quotes without making clear what you think of them? You are a bold person. :cat:

Thanks for the Wurz quote about nobody wanting to provide a car, it's what I said in my posts with the Pirelli quotes about the missing modern test car and the dangers this brings.

#1926 Alx09

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:43

Jenson Button - in a much faster McLaren - could not stay close enough to the slower Michael Schumacher to make a move under braking.

Lewis Hamilton emerged alongside Sebastian Vettel from his one and only pit-stop and held off the German through turn one, everyone watching knew there was unlikely to be a way back for Vettel in the remaining 47 laps. That was despite the Red Bull being the fastest car to the tune of almost a second in qualifying.

Of course, the straw that broke the camel's back was the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix at the end of the year, when Fernando Alonso and Mark Webber both got stuck behind Vitaly Petrov's Renault for 39 laps which allowed Vettel to sneak in to win the championship.

With only DRS, this would've been solved. Pirelli tyres were not what changed this.

By that point the sport couldn't wait for the arrival of Pirelli and its rapidly-degrading tyres to spice up the racing and open up more overtaking opportunities.

This is just trying to give Pirelli credit for what DRS has given. The following comments after are just trying to lead into more Pirelli praise and so on, when the 3 examples above should be credited to DRS.

"From a tyre point of view, the drivers will have to find the best compromise between performance and degradation, which is exactly the way that it has always been in Formula One,"

Just as there has to be a compromise between performance and degradation, there also has to be a balance between the two and how much either affects the other. This balance is way off currently.


As for the comments from Wurz, I agree.

Edited by Alx09, 10 April 2013 - 10:50.


#1927 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:16

So now that Marko said that RBR won't use team orders anymore, where does that leave the "team orders are Pirelli's fault" argument? Honest question to those who said so.

#1928 Sakae

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:44

So now that Marko said that RBR won't use team orders anymore, where does that leave the "team orders are Pirelli's fault" argument? Honest question to those who said so.

It was RB (Horner) who stated that conditions of tires were behind Code 21. In response I said maybe, but this was not the only thing.
At the end there is no contradiction that I can detect, if the tires were really of concern. Newey did not want to take risk what could (and never did) materialize during overtaking, such as rapid drop-off during one or two laps. After press invoked horror Dr. Marko now merely stating, that next time they will accept that risk, and there will not be any orders issued on holding positions. That's how I am reading it.


#1929 Rinehart

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:09

Edd Straw is what Id call a 'chapa branca' journalist and I really cant find him credible anymore. Especially when it comes to Pirelli.


The good old, I don't agree with journo x therefore "journo x isn't credible" tack.

What's wrong with just disagreeing with a journo? Why is it they always have to be "not credible" too.

Just saying, it's a bit of a theme on here.

#1930 BackOnTop

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:27

BackOnTop, you do realize that you posted quotes without making clear what you think of them? You are a bold person. :cat:

Thanks for the Wurz quote about nobody wanting to provide a car, it's what I said in my posts with the Pirelli quotes about the missing modern test car and the dangers this brings.

Thanks KnucklesAgain hehe!

I was highlighting F1 is, and always has been based on strategy... one of them being how a team maximised tyre performance (which Bridgestone took away from great drivers on track)

With Bridgestone, it got to a point where just making a fast car... or qualifying better was 'enough' to keep that position for the entire race. Alonso had no chance of overtaking Petrov.... does that mean the best driver Petrov held off an average Alonso!!

You see, some people are claiming that with equal tyres the best drivers will always be in front.... but Abu Dhabi proved average drivers can hold up a much faster World Champion by just going around without having to worry about 'RaceCraft.

In 2008, Kimi Raikkonen had a record-equalling 10 fastest laps in 17 races.... but had his season go down the drain with utter lack of overtaking during races. Qualifying held more importance than RaceCraft... which was really stupid when overtaking in the race was rendered impossible.

So we had faster drivers 'follow' around looking frustrated, sheepish and irritated with no opportunity to use their skills in other areas to overcome the 'boring' Bridgestone tyres. Infact, tyres ruled more during Bridgestone era than the current Pirelli one.

Edited by BackOnTop, 11 April 2013 - 07:29.


#1931 Sakae

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 08:30

11 April, 2013 Olivier Panis |YallaF1com

The worst thing about Pirelli's approach to 2013 is causing teams to impose team orders among their drivers, according to Olivier Panis....



#1932 boldhakka

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:07

Thanks KnucklesAgain hehe!

I was highlighting F1 is, and always has been based on strategy... one of them being how a team maximised tyre performance (which Bridgestone took away from great drivers on track)

With Bridgestone, it got to a point where just making a fast car... or qualifying better was 'enough' to keep that position for the entire race. Alonso had no chance of overtaking Petrov.... does that mean the best driver Petrov held off an average Alonso!!

You see, some people are claiming that with equal tyres the best drivers will always be in front.... but Abu Dhabi proved average drivers can hold up a much faster World Champion by just going around without having to worry about 'RaceCraft.

In 2008, Kimi Raikkonen had a record-equalling 10 fastest laps in 17 races.... but had his season go down the drain with utter lack of overtaking during races. Qualifying held more importance than RaceCraft... which was really stupid when overtaking in the race was rendered impossible.

So we had faster drivers 'follow' around looking frustrated, sheepish and irritated with no opportunity to use their skills in other areas to overcome the 'boring' Bridgestone tyres. Infact, tyres ruled more during Bridgestone era than the current Pirelli one.


Isn't all of this solved by DRS?

So now that Marko said that RBR won't use team orders anymore, where does that leave the "team orders are Pirelli's fault" argument? Honest question to those who said so.


I wasn't one of those who said anything about team orders being about Pirelli, but where is the contradiction? So RBR will accept an additional risk, one they would rather not.

Lots of people in this thread are going for cheap semantic arguments that have the appearance of a good argument, but actually lack in substance.



Edited by boldhakka, 11 April 2013 - 10:15.


#1933 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 18:53

And this is less artificial than high-wear spec tyres and the DRS? And what would happen in wet conditions?


It's no more "artificial" than having tarmac, is it? Tires wearing out in pseudo-random ways is not the same thing as a professional driver negotiating a tricky track condition. That is much more entertaining to me, AND you can *see* it happening, AND *you know it's happening*.

The tire situation is bad because you don't really know what is going on exactly with each car's tires - and it doesn't *make the show look better*. Whether a driver is braking 10 meters early or not - you can't see that, nor do you know if a driver isn't able to go around someone because of their tire condition.

DRS, on the other hand, you can see, and you know where it's going to happen and there is a visible outcome.


With the painted zone, it would be no different than a track condition, and you would be able to watch how each driver handles it - on equal terms. At the same time solving the problem of brake hysteresis making over taking impossible, and you could make otherwise boring turns more interesting with little $$$$$.




#1934 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 19:03

It was RB (Horner) who stated that conditions of tires were behind Code 21. In response I said maybe, but this was not the only thing.
At the end there is no contradiction that I can detect, if the tires were really of concern. Newey did not want to take risk what could (and never did) materialize during overtaking, such as rapid drop-off during one or two laps. After press invoked horror Dr. Marko now merely stating, that next time they will accept that risk, and there will not be any orders issued on holding positions. That's how I am reading it.


I wasn't addressing you specifically. I agree with what you wrote here and said so before, lots of factors come into play when team orders happen. My question was because of some posts blaming the tyres directly.

#1935 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 19:05

You can't see what a cross-linked suspension is doing either, or who has one.

#1936 Markn93

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 06:48

If anyone wants to understand why people hate these tyres, watch the onboard footage with Nico Rosberg now, he's going so slowly it's absurd. And he's one of the quick ones!

#1937 sharo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:02

If anyone wants to understand why people hate these tyres, watch the onboard footage with Nico Rosberg now, he's going so slowly it's absurd. And he's one of the quick ones!

Even worse with Lewis IMO.

#1938 Sennasational

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:09

Even worse with Lewis IMO.


Exactly, it's so frustrating to see the fastest drivers not being able to show their skill because of the bloody tyres falling apart!

#1939 Xeriks

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:11

Paul Hembrey on the BBC, apparently 1.5 sec gap between both compounds, that's kinda ridiculous, never mind how fast the softs are falling apart..

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#1940 ivand911

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:20

Usual shit tyres from Pirelli. :down: Pirelli tyre supplier - F1 dark times.

#1941 Trust

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:22

Tyres are great, shut up. Kimi will be champion with them easily. :smoking:

#1942 ivand911

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:24

Tyres are great, shut up. Kimi will be champion with them easily. :smoking:

I don't think any driver is enjoying tyres right now.


#1943 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:25

Button - delamination, medium, Frt L

#1944 Alx09

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:36

The rubber creating almost like gravel-traps on the track surface outside of the racing line, as if there has been 2 race distances there. Tyre delamination, 10-13 seconds off qualifying pace, tyres shredding and flying in massive chunks from plenty of cars. Softs lasting for 3 laps.

Lewis Hamilton over team radio: "I've never seen the tyres behave this way."

Edited by Alx09, 12 April 2013 - 07:47.


#1945 Group B

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:37

No doubt Knuckles will rock up shortly to tell us all is well :rolleyes:

#1946 Obi Offiah

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:41

No doubt Knuckles will rock up shortly to tell us all is well :rolleyes:

Aren't you enjoying this Babybel championship?

Hopefully things will improve as the track rubbers in further.

#1947 xman

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:45

Well to be fair Button caused his own tyre delamination with huuuge flatspotting/lockup.

#1948 JRizzle86

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 07:45

Aren't you enjoying this Babybel championship?

Hopefully things will improve as the track rubbers in further.


It does seem we see this shock factor for the first two practice sessions and then once the teams have a better understanding of the tyres limits and the track rubbers in and the shock factor goes away for quali and race.

Edited by JRizzle86, 12 April 2013 - 07:46.


#1949 Group B

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:10

It was RB (Horner) who stated that conditions of tires were behind Code 21. In response I said maybe, but this was not the only thing.
At the end there is no contradiction that I can detect, if the tires were really of concern. Newey did not want to take risk what could (and never did) materialize during overtaking, such as rapid drop-off during one or two laps. After press invoked horror Dr. Marko now merely stating, that next time they will accept that risk, and there will not be any orders issued on holding positions. That's how I am reading it.

Horner just made that explicitly clear in the Friday press conference; those team orders were 100% the result of worrying that the tyres would disintegrate. How can any racing fan honestly think this is good?

#1950 Sakae

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 08:18

The rubber creating almost like gravel-traps on the track surface outside of the racing line, as if there has been 2 race distances there. Tyre delamination, 10-13 seconds off qualifying pace, tyres shredding and flying in massive chunks from plenty of cars. Softs lasting for 3 laps.

Lewis Hamilton over team radio: "I've never seen the tyres behave this way."

Hamilton - to Sky

"I did a couple of laps and the tyre just disintegrated," complained Hamilton to Sky Sports News after finishing Practice Two in seventh place. "The soft are hardcore, it just doesn't feel like the right type of tyre for this circuit."
Live on Sky Sports
2013 Chinese Grand Prix
April 14, 2013 6:30am
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..

"I've never had tyres behave this way," lamented Hamilton over his car-to-pits radio.