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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#101 Bonaventura

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 19:38

Button on the next two races with Pirelli's tyre allocation
"So we have a tough couple of races coming up. It's not just about sheer speed, it's whether you can look after the tyres or not".

F1 has finally become a tyre management series rather than a race series....

Button said a 5 stopper might be possible
Would be intersting how much will save tyres at qualy for the race, because if you loose one set at qualy, you are lost at the race

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#102 trogggy

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 19:43

It's not just about sheer speed was followed by "it's whether you can look after the tyres or not". So that second statement kind of renders the first one meaningless.

So looking at that whole statement an not "a word" the most important thing is "tyre conservation" according to JB.And you arguing semantics, or grammar or whatever you were arguing there doesn't change the fact.

Isn't that what you're doing?
The difference is...you're doing it badly.
Of course it's about speed.
It's not just about speed.
It's not hard.

#103 Concorde

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 19:44

Button said a 5 stopper might be possible
Would be intersting how much will save tyres at qualy for the race, because if you loose one set at qualy, you are lost at the race

Button saying there might be 5 stops now equals losing one set = you are lost :rolleyes:


#104 trogggy

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 19:49

Button saying there might be 5 stops now equals losing one set = you are lost :rolleyes:

Not quite that, but he's in the ball park:

You could see a lot of stops here. We can only have five stops, we can't have any more, but I think we might be using all of them.

"Qualifying is going to be interesting, as you don't want to flat-spot a tyre, because you are going to need them all maybe.



#105 Bonaventura

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 19:49

Button saying there might be 5 stops now equals losing one set = you are lost :rolleyes:

Yep .
"It's going to be tough," he is quoted by Autosport. "The softs are pretty tough tyres to do a long run with anyway, so with the supersoft it is going to be interesting. You could see a lot of stops here. We can only have five stops, we can't have any more, but I think we might be using all of them.

"Qualifying is going to be interesting, as you don't want to flat-spot a tyre, because you are going to need them all maybe.


If you have 5 stopps you need 6 sets of tyres, more than 6 sets of tyres are not available
If you have ruined one....

#106 Concorde

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 19:55

If you have 5 stopps you need 6 sets of tyres, more than 6 sets of tyres are not available
If you have ruined one....

I can do the math myself thank you, you however should check the dictionary for "might" and "maybe".
On the basis of the uncertainty those words implicate saying you lose one set = you're lost, is rather silly.


#107 Bonaventura

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 19:57

I can do the math myself thank you, you however should check the dictionary for "might" and "maybe".
On the basis of the uncertainty those words implicate saying you lose one set = you're lost, is rather silly.

:down: :down:
Without a set of tyres at the last stop , what are the alternatives?

Edited by Bonaventura, 13 October 2011 - 19:59.


#108 Concorde

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 20:03

:down: :down:
Without a set of tyres at the last stop , what are the alternatives?

Get a dictionary please there MIGHT not be 5 stops, they MAYBE will do only 3 or 4.

So "lose one set = you're lost" is rather premature at least to put it nicely. :rolleyes:

#109 Bonaventura

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 20:17

Get a dictionary please there MIGHT not be 5 stops, they MAYBE will do only 3 or 4.

So "lose one set = you're lost" is rather premature at least to put it nicely. :rolleyes:


What should they do use a used set?
Retire, go off track?

Edited by ForeverF1, 13 October 2011 - 20:35.
English only please, not everyone reads or speaks German. Removed "Das tangiert mich extrem peripher"


#110 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 20:26

What should they do use a used set?
Retire, go off track?

Classy insult..... followed by the edit to cover yourself....to be expected from you.

Nobody seemed to care when the Bridgestone runners had to retire with ****ed up tyres in a few races during 2005. When it came to Michelins turn to screw up, they did the usual French thing and threatened a strike, cried a lot, surrendered & went home!!!!!

If the majority of teams can make the 6 sets last, then any team/driver that can't should bear the consequences. Did anyone have sympathy for Red Bull in Spa when they pushed the set-up envelope and then complained about the tyre issues? Thought not! Maybe this is the race where Sauber come back to the podium!

In reality I'd expect it to be better than expected and low fuel and rubber down will see wear rates ease enough to offer up some strategy flexibility.

#111 corf

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 20:38

What should they do use a used set?
Retire, go off track?


If they flat spot it in qualy, they plan ahead and make sure they only use 5 sets.
If they get a puncture early in the race they re-adjust strategy lengthening the next stints.
If they puncture on their last set they have to put used tyres on.

They are guessing, they dont know what will happen, It might be tight for some drivers but I wouldn't be surprised if there are not plenty of 3 stoppers.

#112 fieraku

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 22:51

What should they do use a used set?
Retire, go off track?

Drive slow, this will be an endurance race.

#113 fieraku

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 16:13

Borrowed this from Paddy Lowe
"And tyre-based overtaking shenanigans doesn't really provide any extra excitement than overly-easy DRS zones, as Brawn appears to imply. Seeing one car breeze past another because their rival is on knackered/hard/rubbish tyres is hardly the most thrilling of situations either."


And I borrowed it from the other newer thread.
:up: to Paddy

#114 Alx09

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 16:21

And I borrowed it from the other newer thread.
:up: to Paddy

Great quote. :up:

#115 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 16:26

Prost did not have KERS, and it was fun to see him racing. Why we need it now? (Yeah, he had tires, Good Year if memory serves me, I give you that).


Aero between Prost's time and today is night and day. CFD was a dream back then. Optimizing cars for both the technical and sporting* rules makes cars super sensitive to disturbed air. Is this news in any way?

* Fastest clean-air qualifier starts in clean air

#116 Kraken

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 16:31

Button on the next two races with Pirelli's tyre allocation
"So we have a tough couple of races coming up. It's not just about sheer speed, it's whether you can look after the tyres or not".

F1 has finally become a tyre management series rather than a race series....

Every race series on the planet is about tyre wear at some point. MotoGP, BTCC, ALMS, NASCAR etc etc.

I can't think of single mainstream series where tyre management isn't a crucial skill.

#117 F1ultimate

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:33

Again. Tyre management is proving to handicap the thrill of qualifying at the bottom four in q3 did not seem to gave a damn.

#118 jonnoj

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 07:43

Again. Tyre management is proving to handicap the thrill of qualifying at the bottom four in q3 did not seem to gave a damn.



Wouldn't it be nice to watch a race without constant discussions about the crap tyres. I can only hope Pirelli's sales are reflecting what I think of their products.



#119 Kraken

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:10

Wouldn't it be nice to watch a race without constant discussions about the crap tyres. I can only hope Pirelli's sales are reflecting what I think of their products.

Depends on your definition of crap. Pirelli are more than capable of creating a tyre that can last the whole race with minimal lap time loss but that's not what they were asked to do and one look at the viewing figures shows that it's not what the majority of viewers want either.

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#120 jonnoj

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:14

Depends on your definition of crap. Pirelli are more than capable of creating a tyre that can last the whole race with minimal lap time loss but that's not what they were asked to do and one look at the viewing figures shows that it's not what the majority of viewers want either.


These great viewing figures, do they include the empty stands at Korea?



#121 noikeee

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:31

The season has been dull because of Vettel dominance, otherwise the races have been lots of fun. I'd make the tyres a tad more durable and drop the mandatory two compound rule, to tone down a little bit the absurd number of pitstops, but otherwise it's fine.

#122 Kraken

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 12:24

These great viewing figures, do they include the empty stands at Korea?

TV viewing figures. That's where the money is and I don't think that having tyres that last the whole race would fill up the stands in Korea do you?

#123 fieraku

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 12:42

Depends on your definition of crap. Pirelli are more than capable of creating a tyre that can last the whole race with minimal lap time loss but that's not what they were asked to do and one look at the viewing figures shows that it's not what the majority of viewers want either.


WWE probably has higher ratings than NBA and MLB,but it doesn't mean it's a real sport. F1 doesn't need these X-Box fans that have no clue what F1 racing means.

#124 jonnoj

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 18:21

TV viewing figures. That's where the money is and I don't think that having tyres that last the whole race would fill up the stands in Korea do you?


The way things are going, telly viewers will soon be the only people watching F1, and we know how fickle they can be.



#125 Sakae

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 02:24

We do not how to fix racing (overtaking when it can be done on regular basis), thus we add gimmicks as a "show fix". DCR, tires, parc fermé, etc.

To team boses: I, as a fan of F1 since 1974, absolutely hate most of technical and sporting regulations since advent of grooved tires. Make out of this whatever you want. With grooved tires racing started heading south, and hasn't stopped yet. My wish - start with clean sheet of paper, and new brains in Working Tech. Groups.

Edited by Sakae, 16 October 2011 - 02:28.


#126 Alx09

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 14:40

We do not how to fix racing

More mechanical grip, less aero is how to fix it. Less wings.

Edited by Alx09, 16 October 2011 - 14:41.


#127 Kraken

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 16:28

The way things are going, telly viewers will soon be the only people watching F1, and we know how fickle they can be.

:rolleyes:

#128 Alx09

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 12:20

Mark Webber: “As soon as you fight, you chew the tyres up”
http://adamcooperf1....w-the-tyres-up/

That's what we have right now.

Edited by Alx09, 31 October 2011 - 12:20.


#129 Clatter

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 12:25

These great viewing figures, do they include the empty stands at Korea?


Are you suggesting the tyres had something to do with that?

#130 fieraku

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 19:19

Thoughts on the Pass-repass Mario-Kart style? I was venting off and highjacking other threads so I'm taking it here.



#131 fieraku

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 14:33

Mark Webber says drivers want DRS rethink

"DRS is a controversial issue, not least because a lot of it depends on your point of view.

"Some people will like to see cars passing and re-passing all the time. Nascar stock-car racing in America is founded on that. But for some who have a more purist point of view about F1 - like me - overtaking should mean more than that."
http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/15764552.stm

#132 Risil

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 14:42

Love it when F1 people apparently watch 10 minutes of a Talladega race and inform us that all NASCAR racing is like that. Same as they did 10 or so years ago with the Handford ovals in CART.

#133 Alx09

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Posted 24 November 2011 - 15:03

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/96425

Huge success...

Edited by Alx09, 26 April 2012 - 19:48.


#134 Alx09

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 16:18

Schumacher:

He said it's not fun to drive with tyres like this and Lauda said he understands him because it's not fun for any driver to drive slow just because of the tyres.

Will Buxton has tweeted: Schumacher heavily critical of tyres in post race media scrums. Says racing to a delta time is not real racing. Wants words with Pirelli.


Rosberg:

Rosberg also said that it's simply not possible to drive on the limit at any time, they have to nurse the tyres since the start of the race. He said F1 is a complete different sport these days.

[...] it's confirmed by Schumacher and Rosberg that they don't drive on limit at any time of the race, sometimes they drive only at 60-70%


Confirms there there is no longer any on the limit driving in F1, which I have felt. It's a grind, and it's boring.

I hope more drivers join in.

Edited by Alx09, 22 April 2012 - 16:22.


#135 JV97

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 16:25

Good to see these quotes. Apparently Brundle said similar?

Hembrey getting some heat too despite his insistance drivers are pushing in one of his facebook spiels.

Also why drivers are coming out of the cars so fresh now.

Hopefully this builds the pressure and change happens for next year. Pirelli were asked to make tyres that degraded. I'm sure it was assumed drivers would still be able to push on them

#136 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:00

Good to see these quotes. Apparently Brundle said similar?

Hembrey getting some heat too despite his insistance drivers are pushing in one of his facebook spiels.

Also why drivers are coming out of the cars so fresh now.

Hopefully this builds the pressure and change happens for next year. Pirelli were asked to make tyres that degraded. I'm sure it was assumed drivers would still be able to push on them


Brundle for the first time has shown some reservation about the tyres, which is a good sign. He's been plugging them so bloody much up till now. The biggest giveaways that they're not pushing/can't push:

1. The huge chasm in lap time between pole position and fastest lap of the race
2. They come out of the cars after a race looking fresh as a daisy compared to pre-2011.

#137 Trust

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:04

This is not racing. This is SHIT. Bring back Michellins.

#138 PretentiousBread

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:07

This is not racing. This is SHIT. Bring back Michellins.


I would LOVE Michelin to step in and blow the doors off Pirelli. Wouldn't be hard for them.

Edited by PretentiousBread, 22 April 2012 - 18:29.


#139 King Six

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 17:16

Drivers will always save tyres no matter what they are like, we saw it in 2010 when they tried a one stopper and only did a two if they really had to. People complained.

2011 had some crazy few races at first as the teams understood the tyres, Pirelli stabilised them abit and afterwards we saw more two stoppers and even some one stoppers, people still complained.

The fact is, no matter what happens regarding the tyre situation people will complain. To be honest I'm not sure what people want, you create tyres that make a two stop race, but the teams and drivers will try and do a one stopper as that would be seen as a better solution. Same for three stopper and two stops as we saw today.

Drivers will always have to save tyres.

The only way to remove tyre saving is to have tyres that never ever run out no matter how aggressive or how gentle you are with them.

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#140 chhatra

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:29

I think this year the biggest problem is the optimal operating window. If you get it right the tires yield grip and last longer. If you get it wrong the grip is not there and they degrade faster. It is a joke. I think Pirelli has become complaicent since last year. I don't see them making an effort in fine tuning the tires.

The perfect tire situation would be where you could drive 10 laps at 100% and the tires would be gone or you could choose to drive at 80% and the tires would last 5 laps longer.

This year even drivers who are are known to look after tires can't make them last any longer.

#141 Sakae

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 18:36

I think this year the biggest problem is the optimal operating window. If you get it right the tires yield grip and last longer. If you get it wrong the grip is not there and they degrade faster. It is a joke. I think Pirelli has become complaicent since last year. I don't see them making an effort in fine tuning the tires.

The perfect tire situation would be where you could drive 10 laps at 100% and the tires would be gone or you could choose to drive at 80% and the tires would last 5 laps longer.

This year even drivers who are are known to look after tires can't make them last any longer.

How do you hit narrow operating range? Redesign car from a race to race? One track is cold, next one wet and cold, third too hot, so, where is your target?

Edited by Sakae, 22 April 2012 - 18:37.


#142 Longtimefan

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:15

Tyres are ruining F1, its a joke. I agree totally with Michael and Nico.


#143 chhatra

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 19:34

How do you hit narrow operating range? Redesign car from a race to race? One track is cold, next one wet and cold, third too hot, so, where is your target?


Exactly. Last year Pirelli was making the effort in trying to stabilise the situation. F1 always does this, for all the millions spent researching how to make tge racing exciting without making it artificial, they still can not do it. There is still too much variation.

As far as the racing goes, I never had a problem with it before DRS and toffee tires. Yes there was always a procession but that has always been the case. In fact last year was more boring than the previous.

#144 Alx09

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 20:43

Damning comments by Schumacher on the BBC:

Compared it to driving behind the safety car, and says 90% of drivers feel the same.


Go Schumi. More of that.

Edited by Alx09, 22 April 2012 - 20:55.


#145 kissTheApex

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:02

The fact is, no matter what happens regarding the tyre situation people will complain.

Agreed, but we have come to another extreme with the tire management. This year, tires are running the show not racing.

Tyres are ruining F1, its a joke. I agree totally with Michael and Nico.

Agreed.



#146 Sakae

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:28

I would LOVE Michelin to step in and blow the doors off Pirelli. Wouldn't be hard for them.

While I get your point, I am also uncertain that this is entirely Pirelli's fault, despite bottomless love of Mr. Hembery to see his name in headlines every day. Michellin's product might have ended up in the same mess, had they be working to the same specs., although, admittedly, I still do understand how much Pirelli's racing department actually extended specification to theirs perception of good racing tire beyond specification issued to them.

I would suggest to rephrase your wish then as follows; give us the same spec Michelin was using a few years back. I could live with that, if we have a few more changes along-way.


#147 One

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:34

I think Tyres are all right.

But I still dislike DRS bug time. DO we like it? Me Noooot.

WHart do we have now?
1) push to pass
2)DRS
3)Tyre
4)KERS

And the next year Turbo and its boost, intercooler (?allowe?)) and so on.

DOn we have enough? SHould not we say that KERS can be a lot bigger or unlimited in battery capacity? Should a richest win again?

Edited by D.M.N., 23 April 2012 - 07:56.
Inappropriate edit description... "not even jokingly: It is like watyching my GF being raped"


#148 Alx09

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:39

WHart do we have now?
1) push to pass
2)DRS
3)Tyre
4)KERS


Remove all of it (personally I have nothing against KERS since it can be used by both sides though, and it's an interesting technology that should be developed), design cars with less aero and more mechanical grip. Bring back refueling and balanced tyres. All the great tactical refuelling choices comes back. There you go, fantastic close racing possible, with drivers pushing the limits, shining and standing out.

None of this attempt-to-look-like-exciting-racing crap.

Edited by Alx09, 22 April 2012 - 21:40.


#149 Speedoholic

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:47

I don't see how the new tyres produce exciting races.
2010 was a pretty intense season, and they were using Bridgestones back then.
With teams being extremely close this year, last year's Pirellis make more sense.
I mean for chrissake, they're pitting on lap 10.

#150 King Six

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 21:51

The perfect tire situation would be where you could drive 10 laps at 100% and the tires would be gone or you could choose to drive at 80% and the tires would last 5 laps longer.

At the end of the day, everyone would just drive 70% and make the tyres last 6-7 laps longer. The problem with you guys is you don't want the Bridgestones of 2010 but you also don't know what you want with the Pirelli's either, nobody really knows what they want with the tyres anymore, it's conflicting statements everywhere.