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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#3351 Sakae

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:16

Sam Michael can rationalize current situation as much as he wants, yet tire spec continues to disappoint, and that's the real problem here.

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#3352 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:19

Sam Michael can rationalize current situation as much as he wants, yet tire spec continues to disappoint, and that's the real problem here.


Double standards.

#3353 OO7

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:20

Managing tyres is part of F1 history. Managing tyres to the extent demanded by today's Pirelli's is not.

#3354 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:24

Managing tyres is part of F1 history. Managing tyres to the extent demanded by today's Pirelli's is not.


Sure, that's correct, but it's not what Mateschitz said.

#3355 Sakae

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:24

I don't see why what RBR owner speaks is a big news.


DM invested fortune and his sole into racing. He is capable to recognize fudge racing when he see it, and doesn't need Sam Michael and alike to explain it to him.


#3356 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:27

DM invested fortune and his sole into racing. He is capable to recognize fudge racing when he see it, and doesn't need Sam Michael and alike to explain it to him.


It's a f****g playground to him, he never jeopardized his incredible wealth in the slightest, and his soul is elsewhere (not sure about his sole). I have no problem with that, but to claim that his voice is more important than McLaren's voice because from the two it's he who invested his soul into racing is a weird position to take.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 01 May 2013 - 19:29.


#3357 Sakae

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:34

It's a f****g playground to him, he never jeopardized his incredible wealth in the slightest, and his soul is elsewhere (not sure about his sole). I have no problem with that, but to claim that his voice is more important than McLaren's voice because from the two it's he who invested his soul into racing is a weird position to take.


You of course aren't forgetting that out of McLaren there are several voices heard on this topic, and those aren't entirely on the same wavelength. Maybe Sam can run internal brainstorming session with his drivers before he grabs a mike next time around.

#3358 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:36

^ Not necessary. All other teams have made up their mind. Only Red Bull is complaining now.

#3359 Sakae

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:40

I give up. We are walking in circles. Lets kick TR and RBR out, and we will have only happy people in the paddock. That sounds just great.

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#3360 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 19:47

You of course aren't forgetting that out of McLaren there are several voices heard on this topic, and those aren't entirely on the same wavelength. Maybe Sam can run internal brainstorming session with his drivers before he grabs a mike next time around.


I doubt that anyone from the McLaren leadership says anything that is not in line with company position. Edit: Drivers is another matter, but you know very well that they are not the most reliable or consistent people in these matters either. I've shown enough driver quotes complaining about Bridgestones

Who's saying anything about kicking out?

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 01 May 2013 - 19:51.


#3361 OO7

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 20:07

Sure, that's correct, but it's not what Mateschitz said.

I agree his comments weren't entirely accurate.

#3362 PretentiousBread

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 20:14

Very cool story but they´ve totally dominated some front limited circuits like Silverstone or Suzuka on these tyres historically too.

They´ve not done that well in some stop/go places like Monza though.

It´s not that simple.


Didn't say it was always that simple, there's hundreds of variables, but there's certain constants that effect the pecking order.

Just look at these 3 race circuits as an example; Barcelona, Hungary, Suzuka - all heavily downforce dependent tracks full of long duration corners, punishing for the tyres, usually with high track temps. Red Bull possessed dominant cars in 2010 and 2011; in 2010 they walloped the competition at these tracks on durable Bridgestones, both in qualifying and the race, sometimes having more than a second per lap advantage over the next best car. Come 2011 what happened at these tracks?

Barcelona - dominated qualifying , again a second faster than the next best car, yet come the race Vettel was holding up Hamilton for the last 2 stints trying to keep him behind. Horner later said he thought the tyres were the reason for Red Bull's sharp performance drop off in the race: http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/13514134

Hungary - went from being 1.2s faster than the opposition in 2010 to being barely the fastest car at all in the 2011 GP, despite still possessing a dominant car.

Suzuka - again, went from being dominant in 2010 to being 2nd best car, Horner admitted they were sacrificing a full 0.9s of ultimate lap time by inducing understeer to protect the tyres.

RE Monza, we all know the reason why Red Bull haven't dominated that circuit and it hasn't had much to do with the tyres.

#3363 peroa

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:24

^^^^^
What he said...
http://www.auto-moto...tt-7018141.html

#3364 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:45

^^^^^
What he said...
http://www.auto-moto...tt-7018141.html



From the same source:

The puncture of Lewis Hamilton in the third training was therefore a political issue. Officially, the British drove over debris. Unofficially to the left rear tread be delaminated.



#3365 PretentiousBread

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 15:25

Because it´s faster than looking for new suspension settings or updates, and because on these tyres their relative pace against other teams would be better.


Then what are you arguing about? :confused:

#3366 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 20:08

^^^^^
What he said...
http://www.auto-moto...tt-7018141.html


Well the article said that Newey is shifting focus from aero to suspension and other mechanical development. That's what most people on the BB have wanted for years. Edit: I realize that probably many/most? people wanted this to happen for other reasons and in other ways. But it's still a development worth pointing out, and it's also kind of the point of the whole article.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 May 2013 - 20:19.


#3367 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 20:12

From the same source:

The puncture of Lewis Hamilton in the third training was therefore a political issue. Officially, the British drove over debris. Unofficially to the left rear tread be delaminated.


Not entirely correct translation. The article says in German:

Offiziell ist der Engländer über Trümmerteile gefahren. Inoffiziell soll hinten links die Lauffläche delaminiert sein.


That's:
"Officially, the Englishman drove over debris. Unofficially, the left rear tread supposedly* delaminated"

Edit: * Supposedly, allegedly, is said to have ...

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 May 2013 - 20:19.


#3368 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 20:22

Not entirely correct translation. The article says in German:


That's:
"Officially, the Englishman drove over debris. Unofficially, the left rear tread supposedly* delaminated"

Edit: * Supposedly, allegedly, is said to have ...

Right, and thanks, but after I have also seen a picture of the tire, one saying comes to my mind, namely, when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then probably it's safe to say it's not a fish.

#3369 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 20:28

Right, and thanks, but after I have also seen a picture of the tire, one saying comes to my mind, namely, when it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then probably it's safe to say it's not a fish.


I was under the impression that it's accepted fact that the Ham tyre delaminated, and was pretty sure to have read Hemberey quotes saying that he was not concerned about the degradation, but that there was delamination after heavy flat spots, which should not happen and needed looking into. I'm a bit surprised that this part of the article makes a big deal out of it as if it was something new.

#3370 Sakae

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 20:40

I was under the impression that it's accepted fact that the Ham tyre delaminated, and was pretty sure to have read Hemberey quotes saying that he was not concerned about the degradation, but that there was delamination after heavy flat spots, which should not happen and needed looking into. I'm a bit surprised that this part of the article makes a big deal out of it as if it was something new.

When Hembery admitted in public to delamination and what he is going to do about it? (Maybe he did, but then I must have missed that interview).

#3371 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 20:54

When Hembery admitted in public to delamination and what he is going to do about it? (Maybe he did, but then I must have missed that interview).


There you go, thanks to Firefox's Awesome Bar. He didn't actually say delamination, but he did say these things, basically: that the tyres are too sensitive to flat spots, that this was the cause of the Perez and Hamilton tyre damage, that they need to monitor it, and that therefore he wouldn't call it a pure driver error, but in part a tyre defect.

Als im Training hier in Malaysia teilweise die Gummifetzen geflogen sind, haben manche Leute im Fahrerlager schon gesagt, dass das gefährlich sei...
Paul Hembery: Nein, das ist Quatsch. Die Strecke war wahnsinnig schmutzig und die Autos sammelten unglaublich viel Reifenabrieb auf. Das waren keine Teile, die vom Reifen weggeflogen sind, sondern welche, die aufgesammelt und aufgewirbelt wurden. Bei den Reifenschäden von Sergio Perez und Lewis Hamilton war die Ursache ein Bremsplatten. Das ist also etwas ganz anderes.

Das war also ein Fahrer- und kein Reifenfehler.
Paul Hembery: In aller Fairness müssen wir zugeben, dass die Reifen in diesem Jahr sehr sensibel auf Bremsplatten reagieren. Wir überwachen das und deswegen möchte ich nicht unbedingt sagen, dass es ein reiner Fehler des Fahrers war.


Too late for literal translation, sorry.

#3372 Clatter

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 21:15

There you go, thanks to Firefox's Awesome Bar. He didn't actually say delamination, but he did say these things, basically: that the tyres are too sensitive to flat spots, that this was the cause of the Perez and Hamilton tyre damage, that they need to monitor it, and that therefore he wouldn't call it a pure driver error, but in part a tyre defect.


Too late for literal translation, sorry.


I don't speak German so have had to rely on a translation of the linked article and don't see that claim.

#3373 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 21:25

I don't speak German so have had to rely on a translation of the linked article and don't see that claim.


Sigh ;) Emphasis on literal translation:

Q: When in training here in Malaysia the rubber shreds flew, some people in the paddock already have said that that's dangerous ...
PH: No, that's nonsense. The track was very dirty and the cars picked up unbelievable amounts of tyre pieces. Those weren't parts of the tyre that flew away, but tyre shreds that were picked up and dispersed. For the tyre damage of Perez and Hamilton the reason was a flat spot. That's a completely different thing.

Q: So that was a driver error and not a tyre defect
PH: In all fairness we have to admit that the tyres this year react very sensitive to flat spots. We are monitoring this and therefore I do not want to necessarily say that it was purely an error of the driver.


(Edit: Typos and: Google always mistranslates "Bremsplatten" as "brake disks", because Platte can also mean disk (Langspielplatte = long play (vinyl) disk), but it's flat spot. I've told Google several times, but apparently I'm not making a dent in the statistics)

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 May 2013 - 21:53.


#3374 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 22:18

Lots of info in new James Allen article

#3375 Clatter

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:46

Lots of info in new James Allen article


There's a few references in that article about the work Pirelli need to do for 2014, which would suggest that even if there isn't a contract actually in place yet the teams are not expecting any change of supplier.

#3376 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:41

...they are not expecting a new supplier because they are deliriously happy now, or they gave up on the subject for lack of proper and serious consultation in which their voice counts in the final decision. I am not talking about "consultation" in which they are being told, but the one in which they are being asked to voice their opinion that is considered on merit.

#3377 Clatter

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 13:15

...they are not expecting a new supplier because they are deliriously happy now, or they gave up on the subject for lack of proper and serious consultation in which their voice counts in the final decision. I am not talking about "consultation" in which they are being told, but the one in which they are being asked to voice their opinion that is considered on merit.


Or maybe, even if they don't actually like the tyres, they are clever enough to realise the manufacturer is not the problem.


#3378 uffen

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 14:13

F1 is relying on the good graces of the Pirelli Board of Directors to "spice up the show." Ok, DRS adds to the "spice" too, but at this point it is largely the tires.

This is a precarious state. Big manufacturers change their minds or pull out often enough that F1 should worry about it. Just the dichotomy of fan opinion such as expressed in this thread tells the tale, to both Pirelli and the FIA.

What if the Pirelli board meets later today and says, "This isn't working. We either make tires that last or we do not renew in 2014." This is just a "what if" here, I am not suggesting that it is going to happen. My point is that F1 shouldn't have put themselves in this position. The fundamentals of F1 should be addressed to add "spice" (if any spice is needed, but let's stick with the theme). They shouldn't rely on an independent, temporarily contracted entity.

#3379 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 14:26

Mercedes had problem last year, they still scraping mud of their emblem, yet today's headline reads - Brawn warn their drivers - we are still not on the top of the tire issues! That's on the eve of 5th race of the season. Now, is Pirelli doing really great job and Brackley camp are bunch of idiots, or Mercedes actually requested to get really good screw? Very confusing who is who, and what is what, but normal, it is not.

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#3380 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 15:38

Well, I don't think that people who have already made up their mind will change it, and that's not my intention, but for anyone else it may be worth to point out some things.

What we have seen with Hamilton's tyre is clearly that it lost his "tread" ( the outer rubber ring, that in a road car tyre would contain the "tread" (pattern).
This phenomenon is technically called "detreading"or "tread separation" (can be complete as in Hamilton's case or partial).
It may or may not be caused by "delamination", which in this context would mean a reversal in the vulcanization process due to excessive heat.
Detreading can be caused by a variety of things, and a "cut" (caused by running over debris or a sharp edge of a curb) can be one of them, and is a good and valid reason why
detreading would start.
Therefore Pirelli saying initially, that it was caused/could have been caused by running over debris, is not totally BS.

In a nutshell it means, that the bond between the construction (belt/carcass) of the tyre and the ring that forms the "tread" is not strong enough, to keep the tread attached to the
construction. The tyre "disintegrates if you like.
One factor which plays a large roll in this, is the velocity (rolling speed of the tyre), because the forces acting on the bond, will increase with the square of speed.
Other factors are the mass/weight of the tread (as higher as more force acts on the bond) and the uniformity of this weight/mass.
A mass imbalance or geometric imbalance (the radius of the tyre being not the same at each point) can cause a local overload of the bond.

This was what Bridgestone claimed, when this happened. (chunking, the build up of pickup causing a imbalance)

Posted Image

If the bond fails at one point, a "flap" forms, and this then normally causes the detreading process, the process stops either when the complete tread is peeled off or, when the tread
breaks/tears a second time (partial detreading).

Now, elevated temperatures make it easier for the bond to fail, because it reduces the "strength of the bond", a hot tyre will detread easier then a colder (not too cold, their is a sweet spot) tyre.
Just as you heat up a old sticker or paint to make it easier to peel it off, the heat reduces the strength of the bond. ( sometimes you can see glued on inner rear view mirrors falling off the windscreen, if the car is parked in glaring sunlight for a while, the heat has weakened the bonding, and the weight of the mirror, was enough to make it fall off).
A car that "overheats" it's tyres or runs the hotter then others will be more prone to this, then a car which keeps the tyre at a lower temperature.
If the heat generated together with the speed, is enough to make the tyre fail on it's own, that's the question.
If this would be the case, I would expect to see more such tyre failures, because the speed is the same and if a car stresses his tyres in a certain way, why it would not do so before or after?
This I would call a "delamination" failure.

But Hamilton's failure was a "one off" (so far), surely it shows, that a limit was reached, but the question is "what has pushed the tyre over the edge", if it was down to the tyres and the car in general, I would expect to see more such failures, at least on his car again, or at the sister car (Rosberg). If this occurs across the board/grid then I would agree, that one could say, the tyre is unsafe or not fit for purpose, but that's not the case so far.
If the tyre is too close to the limit, is another matter, and different people will have different opinions about this, each one should be considered and respected.
But the teams, can influence the running temperature of their tyres (to an extend), so they can do something about it, if they want. But this measures will make them slower, so they are understandingly reluctant to do so, if they can get away with it, and blame someone else instead.

As a side note, during testing (of road car and truck tyres) you "cut" the tyre to promote/help detreading. (the cut is made all the way to the construction)
Another factor in this is the actually material of the thread rubber, because this will have a effect on how a cut (surface defect) propagates from the surface towards the "bond" area (between the carcass and the tread). Some materials are better then others in this respect, and different compounds can alter the crack propagation quite dramatically.
Anyone with a more serious interest in this topic can google for "Ford vs. Firestone tyre failures on the Ford Explorer", this should unearth some technical papers on the subject.
It was rather "big news" a couple of years ago, when detreading of certain tyres was causing vehicle roll over accidents, with injury and death.
People with a wider interest in motor sports, may have seen/heard about this, tyre failures some weeks ago. Again, affecting only one car/driver.

Is there a reason for (safety) concern?
Considering sample size in which we evaluate this issues, isn't the assessment that's only one car/driver (who are affected) a bit dismissive?

Otherwise nice write up, and thanks, I learned something.

#3381 boldhakka

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 15:56

Mercedes had problem last year, they still scraping mud of their emblem, yet today's headline reads - Brawn warn their drivers - we are still not on the top of the tire issues! That's on the eve of 5th race of the season. Now, is Pirelli doing really great job and Brackley camp are bunch of idiots, or Mercedes actually requested to get really good screw? Very confusing who is who, and what is what, but normal, it is not.


The other strange thing is how Pirelli is using the "most teams have asked us not to change the tyres" as some sort of defense. When all it suggests is that the teams are sick and tired of having spent millions in at least coming close to figure out the current tyres, and so are obviously very reluctant to spend even more trying to figure out the new characteristics if any changes are introduced.

Man, it sucks that Hamilton's talent is being wasted on these tyres. We have the privilege of seeing one of the greatest talents of all time in motor racing and here we have him and his team being artificially constrained instead of unleashing the awesome.

The delaminations and/or detreading is a red herring. Pirelli will definitely get on top of any issues in that domain.

Edited by boldhakka, 03 May 2013 - 15:57.


#3382 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 17:52

Thanks for the great info, TC3000 :up:

#3383 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 17:53

Can a driver successfully control a car at 300 km/h if the deviation on tire reappears on track like Monza (in that very inconvenient moment)?

#3384 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 19:47

Totally by accident (and probably by the help of Google keeping me in my filter bubble) I came across this which I thought some might find interesting. Maybe there is even relevant info in the first video, I didn't watch it completely.

F1 2011 - How the Pirelli Formula One tyre is made (complete version)
F1 2011 - Exhausts exit effects on Pirelli tyres

#3385 Sakae

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 21:26

Totally by accident (and probably by the help of Google keeping me in my filter bubble) I came across this which I thought some might find interesting. Maybe there is even relevant info in the first video, I didn't watch it completely.

F1 2011 - How the Pirelli Formula One tyre is made (complete version)
F1 2011 - Exhausts exit effects on Pirelli tyres


When I saw the white coat in the lab eyeballing liquids in his exhibition, a song of JJ Cale came to my mind; little bit of this, little bit of that... I wanted to insert a link for you of it, but than I decided to be merely nice, and tell you instead. :p

#3386 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 21:58

When I saw the white coat in the lab eyeballing liquids in his exhibition, a song of JJ Cale came to my mind; little bit of this, little bit of that... I wanted to insert a link for you of it, but than I decided to be merely nice, and tell you instead. :p


Nothing wrong with JJ Cale! :)

#3387 Sakae

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 20:32

@TC3000 - do you believe several claims on side of pundits that forthcoming changes Pirelli announced for Barcelona will aid RBR most? (And if so, why, if I may ask).

#3388 nada12

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 03:04

Sorry I can't really answer this, because I don't know what changes Pirelli is going to make.
And I'm not sure/convinced that they will communicate all the changes they do.
IF (big if/as I don't know, it's just a speculation on my part) they are really concerned with the integrity of the tyres, based on the events in Bahrain, I'm sure they will make changes but may not communicate them to the public. They will just do, what they feel is needed to be safe/stay on the safe side. And the teams will just have to deal with it.
The changes/tweaks to the compound of the hard tyre, which they have communicated are a different story - IMHO.
From what I have read/understood, they want to make the compound of the hard tyre a bit "harder", to increase the gap to the medium. (but I may have understood this wrong).

Now harder/softer is a bit of a "wishy washy term", which can mean different things to different people.
It may alters the "temperature window" of the tyre, but it may and/or is used to describe the tensile strength of the tread (rubber) compound as well.
To and extent, both things are related to each other, but no necessary in a linear fashion, without additional information (loss modulus of the compound for example) it's difficult to make any qualified assessment of the situation.
If "harder" equals higher tolerance to temperature (higher working range) then it will "benefit" anyone who is "hard" (putting large® amounts of energy though the tyre) on their tyres (RBR but also Merc).

From what I understand, the "claim" of some pundits/fans is that, RBR is able to corner at a speed (higher g-loadings) that they exceed the tensile strength of the compound(s), and literally "tearing" the tyre compound apart. (this is sometimes called hot graining vs. cold graining, which will go away after a couple of laps)
If the new "harder" compound is "stronger" too - I don't know, maybe it is, maybe not.

In any case, it should only have an effect in races where the "hard" tyre is used, and would also not affect qualifying (unless the sacrifice pole for a longer first stint, as they have already done). So if Pirelli only tweaks the hard tyre, it should have no effect on anyones performance in Monaco for example.

Good post. I hate that Pirelli never clarified what changes they actually made to the hard tyres. They only said the hards will be closer to 2012 specification, and most assume this means they'll be harder/more durable, which would benefit RBR and Merc, but I keep wondering, and it's been speculated that "closer to 2012 spec" concerns mainly lowering the temperature working range, which AFAIK was raised from 2012 to 2013. In this case that likely wouldn't benefit RBR and Merc at all, and might actually work in Lotus's favor, among others.

Posted Image
I keep posting this pic from the start of this season, but it still wouldn't surprise me if the thought was that they design these hards for Malaysia and Bahrain and then redefine them at a slightly lower working range for the rest of the season since they won't encounter a similar combination of very high asphalt temps and abrasiveness on any tracks that follow.

#3389 Seanspeed

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 18:28

DRS seemed to work quite well in the DTM race. Not perfect, but it definitely facilitated racing. They have this awful rule where DRS is disallowed in the last 3 laps, and sure enough, the race went from 'passing is possible' to 'no passing whatsoever' in those 3 laps.

#3390 Sakae

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 19:27

This is blo**y good lesson! Has Hembery seen this? :p

#3391 nada12

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 20:52

Great insight TC3000 :up: Nice starting point from which to dig in for us armchair experts.

#3392 Lazy

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 20:58

Good work TC :up:

#3393 Wingcommander

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:59

Thanks TC. Great stuff!

#3394 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:33

My mind is in a rubbery zone after reading that.

Edited by Seanspeed, 06 May 2013 - 07:34.


#3395 JaredS

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 13:59

There is some complete BS going on with Pirelli and Hembrey. Last year, near end of 2012, this is what he said about the upcoming 2013 tyres. http://www.formula1....13/1/14205.html

"extending the tyre’s peak performance window"

http://www.autoevolu...sion-52027.html

According to Pirelli’s Paul Hembrey, “Both the compounds and construction will be different, which means that the characteristics of the new tyres will be altered, with a wider working range"

http://blogs.bettor....-1-news-a205846

"This tyre, I think, has got a much wider working range and that's going to make it much easier to get the tyre working from the start of the season."

"Like Button, he also said that the tyres will provide a wider working range to the teams."

Yet now Hembrey says this about the 2013 tyres, just before the upcoming Barcelona change.

http://www.planetf1....a-wider-window-

"We're introducing a revised version of our hard tyre in Spain, which is closer in characteristics to the 2012 tyre," said the Pirelli motorsport boss. "This new tyre gives us a wider working temperature window"

WTF Hembrey!?!?!?!?!?

So let me summarise. Hembrey, and then Jenson after trialling the 2013 spec tyres in end of 2012, said that the 2013 tyres will have a wider working range.

NOW, after running the 2013 tyres for a few races and before the upcoming Barcelona change for the hard tyre, Hembrey comes out and says that they are changing the hard compound closer to the 2012 to give it a wider working range!

Whaaaaaaat!

Pirelli, what a wicked web we weave when we first learn to deceive. If you're going to wholesale bullish*t, at least remember wtf you said earlier so as not to completely contradict yourself and lose what little thread of credibility you were hanging onto.

Let me get the popcorn whilst the Pirelli apologists swallow this.

#3396 boldhakka

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 14:18

Nice find.

Even with objective metrics, the fact that up to now the medium and hard compounds had roughly the same durability was a clear give away that Pirelli had ended up with tyres that didn't quite do the things that they were designed to do. It could be challenging finding the right balance, and it's good that they're moving in the right direction, but it was a clear F-up by them for the early part of 2013, including testing.

Those quotes above further prove that the 2013 tyres didn't meet the targets that had been set for them. I'm sure Pirelli hire the best engineers, so finding fault is a pointless game. They'll fix it and they should learn and not repeat the same engineering mistakes. They should also not try to claim that this was the plan all along and that they should deserve credit for it. They should be lambasted if they say that, which they are.

Edited by boldhakka, 06 May 2013 - 14:19.


#3397 skid solo

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 15:10

While I'm sure, that Hembrey has a "selective" memory, and I wouldn't take anything he says as the "truth" - he is a marketing guy after all :-)

This comment, is maybe not as stupid as it (you make it) sound.

I think, here people mixing two things together, which are not meant to be mixed together.

One is the "working range" of the individual tyre (super soft, soft, medium, hard), and one is the "(temperature) range" which the selected tyres for a weekend cover.

If you go back, to the graphic KA has posted, you see, that the "working range", for the individual compounds are said to be ~25° - example hard 110°C - 135°C.

Now, they have decided to bring the medium 90°C-115°C (25° working range) and the hard 110°-135° to Barcelona, this gives a "total range" of 45° for the tyres selected
for this weekend. And as you see, there is an overlap of around 5° between the two compounds. If a team ends up running their tyres in the 110°C - 115°C window, they
could get both compounds to work, and the difference in performance is maybe small.

If Pirelli now decides to bring a 2012 spec hard compound, and we assume for the sake of the example (because I don't have the data), that this tyre has a working range
from 120-140°C, then this tyre has an smaller individual "working range" (20° vs. 25°) but the range covered by the tyre selection for the weekend increase to 90°C- 140°C
(50° vs. 45°).
In Hembrey speak this can translate to "a wider working temperature window", because the reference is the range the selected tyres cover, not the individual working range
of each compound.

If this is the case (and I dunno, just a hypothesis), their is maybe a "gap" (or at least less overlap) in the range between the two compounds.
Now any team, which runs tyre temperatures around ~115°C may finds itself in "nowhere land", it would be "too hot" to make the medium last over the distance, but on the other
hand they may struggle to "switch on" the hard tyre, and may struggle with "cold graining" (at least temporary) because, they can't generate the energy needed to push the hard "into the zone" (working window) - fast enough, or in worse case at all. ( drivers and teams saying "we couldn't get the tyre to work")


Thanks for your insight TC3000 :up:

I was of the understanding they were increasing the hard tyres working range and it hadn't occurred to me it was the dual compounds working range they were increasing.


#3398 Skinnyguy

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 15:39

Even thinking about the hard tyre individually, he´s right. The new hard tyre should be much easier to work with once we arrive to Europe than the early 2013 one. So yes, he´s right, they bring tyres easier to get into the correct range of temperature.

#3399 JaredS

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 15:42

While I'm sure, that Hembrey has a "selective" memory, and I wouldn't take anything he says as the "truth" - he is a marketing guy after all :-)

This comment, is maybe not as stupid as it (you make it) sound.

I think, here people mixing two things together, which are not meant to be mixed together.

One is the "working range" of the individual tyre (super soft, soft, medium, hard), and one is the "(temperature) range" which the selected tyres for a weekend cover.

If you go back, to the graphic KA has posted, you see, that the "working range", for the individual compounds are said to be ~25° - example hard 110°C - 135°C.

Now, they have decided to bring the medium 90°C-115°C (25° working range) and the hard 110°-135° to Barcelona, this gives a "total range" of 45° for the tyres selected
for this weekend. And as you see, there is an overlap of around 5° between the two compounds. If a team ends up running their tyres in the 110°C - 115°C window, they
could get both compounds to work, and the difference in performance is maybe small.

If Pirelli now decides to bring a 2012 spec hard compound, and we assume for the sake of the example (because I don't have the data), that this tyre has a working range
from 120-140°C, then this tyre has an smaller individual "working range" (20° vs. 25°) but the range covered by the tyre selection for the weekend increase to 90°C- 140°C
(50° vs. 45°).
In Hembrey speak this can translate to "a wider working temperature window", because the reference is the range the selected tyres cover, not the individual working range
of each compound.

If this is the case (and I dunno, just a hypothesis), their is maybe a "gap" (or at least less overlap) in the range between the two compounds.
Now any team, which runs tyre temperatures around ~115°C may finds itself in "nowhere land", it would be "too hot" to make the medium last over the distance, but on the other
hand they may struggle to "switch on" the hard tyre, and may struggle with "cold graining" (at least temporary) because, they can't generate the energy needed to push the hard "into the zone" (working window) - fast enough, or in worse case at all. ( drivers and teams saying "we couldn't get the tyre to work")


Thanks and a very interesting read! :up:

However I don't agree that Hembrey isn't contradicting himself. He does specifically say that the revision they are bringing to Barcelona is reverting back to the 2012 spec. You mention that together, the tyres give a wider working range of 90 - 140 deg C, but going by your number (and I understand they are examples only) there is actually a hole from 115 to 120 deg C where neither tyre would work.

Also, again using your numbers, the current 2013 spec 90 - 135 deg C allows both tyres to work as you said yourself. However the change Pirelli wants to bring, again using your example numbers, potentially could have neither tyre working if they fall into that temp hole. Which would contradict the very reason Hembrey has stated that they are revising the tyre in the first place.

Maybe I'll have to see some example numbers that would better explain your theory, but currently I can't see the realistic logic in it.

Also Jenson's main complaint together with several other teams was that the 2012 tyres had too narrow an operating range. Pirelli's proposed solution was that the 2013 tyres will widen the working range.

I don't agree that Hembrey means the working range of the combined tyre selection. Reason is, the car is only running one set of tyres. So an individual selection with a narrow range, but a combined wider range doesn't help. Since at the given time a team is running a particular set, they have greater risk of being out of the working range.

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#3400 Skinnyguy

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 15:48

...but currently I can't see the realistic logic in it.


Current hard tyre might not work well in the not that extremelly hot European races > we better change it so it works in cooler environments.