Jump to content


Photo
* * - - - 26 votes

New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4031 replies to this topic

#251 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,596 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:01

I'd say Pirelli have provided what was asked of them.

Seems they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Pirelli could produce a soft tyre which, as we saw with Vettel's soft bridgestones at Monza, could do a full race and then people complain about dull GPs or as they are doing, could provide tyres which drop off very quickly and probably don't allow us to see drivers on the limit.

I've really enjoyed the racing so far this season but it is concerning when you hear drivers saying they cannot push at all during the race.


I agree, but, but I hardly think anybody asked them to produce tyres that are so sensitive to temperature changes.

Advertisement

#252 jbarokF1

jbarokF1
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:08

People complained about F1 procession..and now we have exciting races and people are still complaining? KERS...DRS...and now Pirellis...Can we just all enjoy the races!

I don't have any problems with the tyres..as long as I can watch exciting races like we have in the last 4 races. F1 has never been this exciting the past 5-6 years..

If you hate DRS or Pirellis, don't watch it..simple as that.

Edited by jbarokF1, 24 April 2012 - 16:11.


#253 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,667 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:11

@engel

I am afraid cars exchanging positions on the track is not what racing and overtaking is about.


+1. Neither are many different winners in a season, championships defined by 1 point, passing with newer tyres or less fuel, or in the pit or with DRS. In extremis I would prefer a championship were 2 cars killed the rest of the field, a-la McLaren 88 (or was ir 89) but racing hard between them, than a theatrical race with 24 cars driving on eggs (or cheese for that matter).

#254 jbarokF1

jbarokF1
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:11

Pirelli and DRS are just brilliant !! Just saved a dying sport...

TO all those moaning - when your drivers figure them out - you will be all ok ! Trust me on that.


:up: :up: :up:

#255 Gintonious

Gintonious
  • Member

  • 965 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:23

Does anyone think that the DRS and the Pirellis would be getting as much "flack" as they are if refueling was still around?

#256 jbarokF1

jbarokF1
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:31

+1. Neither are many different winners in a season, championships defined by 1 point, passing with newer tyres or less fuel, or in the pit or with DRS. In extremis I would prefer a championship were 2 cars killed the rest of the field, a-la McLaren 88 (or was ir 89) but racing hard between them, than a theatrical race with 24 cars driving on eggs (or cheese for that matter).


Tell me what is more theatrical than watching 24 cars in procession from lap 1 to last lap? It's like watching synchronized swimming.

Cars are a lot different now than in 80's...You cannot negate the technological advancement of the cars. 60%-70% of F1 cars of today are just within 1-2 seconds difference in speed.

Edited by jbarokF1, 24 April 2012 - 16:34.


#257 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,805 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:37

People complained about F1 procession..and now we have exciting races and people are still complaining? KERS...DRS...and now Pirellis...Can we just all enjoy the races!

I don't have any problems with the tyres..as long as I can watch exciting races like we have in the last 4 races. F1 has never been this exciting the past 5-6 years..

If you hate DRS or Pirellis, don't watch it..simple as that.

WHat's exciting about an overtake when it's done with a push on the button, where one of the drivers can't really do anything about it?
What's exciting about an overtake because of the difference in speed being multiple seconds due to tyre strategy where again one of the drivers can't do anything about it?

It's a show, yes, but for all the wrong reasons.

#258 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 24 April 2012 - 16:50

WHat's exciting about an overtake when it's done with a push on the button, where one of the drivers can't really do anything about it?
What's exciting about an overtake because of the difference in speed being multiple seconds due to tyre strategy where again one of the drivers can't do anything about it?

It's a show, yes, but for all the wrong reasons.



DRS would be fine if you could use it to defend as well as attack. The tyres this year though are a joke. You never know if there going to work, and if some drivers are racing to a delta time i can't see the point.

Race leader has still won from going into the first corner in 1st place in all dry races this year. They will win as long as they dont have pit stop dramas cause the person in 2nd will be to busy thinking of the tyres.

Why did they even need to change the pirelli tyres from what we had last year. They should of kept the same tyre and progressed with it. Non of this lottery of not knowing if your tyres are going to work in the race.

It is what it is now though. We may have a close season, but it will all be down to tyres.

#259 skid solo

skid solo
  • Member

  • 2,094 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:15

I'm confused. Are you calling Gary Anderson a liar? :confused:


No I just prefer to listen to a guy who is driving the car this year and knows what he is talking about rather than a TV pundit who used to design F1 cars in the last century

Advertisement

#260 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:23

DRS would be fine if you could use it to defend as well as attack. The tyres this year though are a joke. You never know if there going to work, and if some drivers are racing to a delta time i can't see the point.

Race leader has still won from going into the first corner in 1st place in all dry races this year. They will win as long as they dont have pit stop dramas cause the person in 2nd will be to busy thinking of the tyres.

Why did they even need to change the pirelli tyres from what we had last year. They should of kept the same tyre and progressed with it. Non of this lottery of not knowing if your tyres are going to work in the race.

It is what it is now though. We may have a close season, but it will all be down to tyres.


They changed the compounds because in every race last year (with one exception) the option tyre was by far the better race tyre and as a result strategies were always the same. i.e use options for as much of the race as possible and only bolt on the primes at the end (remember Massa and Vettel pitting on the last lap in Germany?).

They changed the construction of the rear tyres to give them a wider shoulder and a slightly bigger contact patch.

We knew in advance they were going to do these things.

The narrower operating range is not a consequence of these changes. This is another change that we didn't know about but it is definitely a design feature,.

Edited by Dunder, 24 April 2012 - 17:24.


#261 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,763 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:30

The narrower operating range is not a consequence of these changes. This is another change that we didn't know about but it is definitely a design feature failure,.

A small correction, if you'd excuse me :)

Edited by sharo, 24 April 2012 - 17:31.


#262 schubacca

schubacca
  • Member

  • 795 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:37

No I just prefer to listen to a guy who is driving the car this year and knows what he is talking about rather than a TV pundit who used to design F1 cars in the last century


Yep, Anderson missed Schumacher's point: He did not want bespoke tyres. He wants tyres that allow the driver to drive on the limit.

Pirelli's PR team is out in full force. As soon as someone says something remotely negative, they come out with a rebuttal the next day.

I particularly enjoyed...." Michael liked the tyre in the Winter....." line.

#263 Rurouni

Rurouni
  • Member

  • 382 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:43

The problem with this narrow operating range is that the teams do the set up a day before race day, so they must be able to predict tomorrow condition much more accurately compared to previous seasons. I don't think we have the technology to predict the weather accurately.. at least not a day before.
I'm not against DRS and previous year tyre (except for the cliff), but the current tyres definitely going in the wrong direction. Before this season, we argue that when someone won the race it is either the driver is genuinely fast or the car is fast. Now people will argue at the winner is just lucky with the set up.
I really hope that this inconsistency is just happen because teams haven't understand the tyres and when they do understand, they can be consistent.

#264 muelte

muelte
  • Member

  • 492 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:51

I very much prefer this kind of racing to the borefests & processions we had with the ultra durable Bridgestones where all strategies were the same and where a faster car couldn't overtake at all.



#265 Darth Sidious

Darth Sidious
  • Member

  • 751 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 24 April 2012 - 17:52

Is anybody else expecting Pirelli to sneakily fix the extreme degradation issue on the quiet by revamping the compounds and then issue a press release after the first race when things settle down claiming; 'see, we told you they'd get used to it. Nothing wrong with our tyres, sport.'

Or is that just wishful thinking?

:-/

#266 Markn93

Markn93
  • Member

  • 4,066 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:38

"It is key to get your car into a position where you can exploit the tyres in the right way," he told AUTOSPORT. "It makes no sense to try and bring a couple of tenths from downforce if you don't understand the tyres, because you can lose a lot more.

"But you have to keep developing the car if you want to keep contact with the top teams."

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/99126

#267 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:55

Is anybody else expecting Pirelli to sneakily fix the extreme degradation issue on the quiet by revamping the compounds and then issue a press release after the first race when things settle down claiming; 'see, we told you they'd get used to it. Nothing wrong with our tyres, sport.'

Or is that just wishful thinking?

:-/

I would have expected that some quiet phone calls along those lines from certain office have already taken place in past a few days.

#268 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,667 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 19:59

Tell me what is more theatrical than watching 24 cars in procession from lap 1 to last lap? It's like watching synchronized swimming.

Cars are a lot different now than in 80's...You cannot negate the technological advancement of the cars. 60%-70% of F1 cars of today are just within 1-2 seconds difference in speed.


Did I defend processional races anywhere?

Are they really that close or is this closeness due to the fact that they are all driving far from their 100%?

#269 jbarokF1

jbarokF1
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 24 April 2012 - 20:39

Did I defend processional races anywhere?

Are they really that close or is this closeness due to the fact that they are all driving far from their 100%?


DRS, KERS, Pirellis, less wings, higher rear wing, wider front-wing, etc were introduced as solutions to processional races..Take them out then we will be back to were we were before..then all of us will complain about boring races.

So you think all the drivers are not pushing hard or racing hard enough? Maybe some but not all..but I think it's more due to the fact that their car design is not well-suited to maximize the potentials of the current tyres.

Edited by jbarokF1, 24 April 2012 - 20:41.


#270 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:50

The problem with this narrow operating range is that the teams do the set up a day before race day, so they must be able to predict tomorrow condition much more accurately compared to previous seasons. I don't think we have the technology to predict the weather accurately.. at least not a day before.
I'm not against DRS and previous year tyre (except for the cliff), but the current tyres definitely going in the wrong direction. Before this season, we argue that when someone won the race it is either the driver is genuinely fast or the car is fast. Now people will argue at the winner is just lucky with the set up.
I really hope that this inconsistency is just happen because teams haven't understand the tyres and when they do understand, they can be consistent.

That's correct, and I have been saying the same for past several days. Understanding tires is one thing, but what you will do about it and how you manage set-up based merely on prediction of ambient conditions 24 hrs in advance of the race is another thing altogether. What's good now, could be totally off tommorrow. (One more reason to get rid of parc ferme). Yet, even if you hit jackpot, you cannot explore car to its full racing potential, because team would run out of tires before race is over.

Edited by Sakae, 25 April 2012 - 10:51.


#271 Kucki

Kucki
  • Member

  • 1,237 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:46

Good tyres on the limit are so much more fun to watch. Look how the car moves under braking, and at the apex. Squeezing everything out of the car, as a specctator you can visibly see it, and also feel the edgyness. That what good tyres allows an F1 car to do, allowing more slip angle, more sliding, more action.


Edited by Kucki, 25 April 2012 - 11:54.


#272 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:16

Thanks for that Kucki. The single-lap qualifying system was cool too.

Pirelli tyres did gives us this though. ;)

#273 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,667 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 25 April 2012 - 15:45

DRS, KERS, Pirellis, less wings, higher rear wing, wider front-wing, etc were introduced as solutions to processional races..Take them out then we will be back to were we were before..then all of us will complain about boring races.

So you think all the drivers are not pushing hard or racing hard enough? Maybe some but not all..but I think it's more due to the fact that their car design is not well-suited to maximize the potentials of the current tyres.


Ok, the chronology of the elements you mention, if I remember correctly, was the following:

1. Lack of overtakings and generally boring races spark the Overtaking Group (or something like that). They consult the fans (I remember filling out the questionnaire) and decide to change the rules for 2009. You will clearly remember this as the front wings became wider and the back wings taller (and people thought the cars looked horrible). Great expectations, the turbulence behind a car will be reduced, allowing closer racing.

2. Brawn find a loophole with DDs which is not banned in time, which also creates too much turbulence. Everyone copies it, new rules negated. They ban it for 2010.

3. With DDs banned for 2011, supposedly the original idea of 2009 had its first chance to show if it worked. Did they even test it? No, they introduced DRS right away. Teams come up with BEs. Cars still produce too much turbulence, overtaking still difficult, objectives not reached. BEs banned for 2012.

4. Never having even tried the original configuration suggested for 2009, they keep DRS and further manipulate the tyres. At the end of the day you can see that instead of trying to keep at their original objective of reducing turbulence by changing mainly aero, they have not kept at it and instead introduced these artificial elements. If the aero changes for 2009 did not work or did not work well enough, there was always the chance of fiddling with wings some more (heights, widths, complexity, etc.). Why they didn't do it is the real question.

To answer your other question, I think that maybe the small differences we see between teams are not due to some magic jump forward that has allowed the midfield teams to catch up (as Pirelli, FIA and excited star-eyed fans want to make believe or believe). Because no one is able to push at 100% the differences become smaller, as the difference between, say, a McLAren and a Sauber, can't materialize because, at less then 100% performance, these cars are closer in speed (as when you pedal slower so that your son can keep up with you on your bikes). Add to that the roulette resulting from parc ferme and changing weather, the super narrow window of the Pirelli cheese and the inability of drivers to pull more than one attacking or defending move and indeed you have a very close, but artificial, field.

#274 jondoe955

jondoe955
  • Member

  • 496 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 25 April 2012 - 16:04

Tires - I hate the klag they leave. The highest tech cars and tracks - and they are limited to one racing line. The rest of the track may as well be dirt or gravel! China was embarrassing.
Intellectually, I like 'good, smart' driving - tire, brake and fuel management.
Emotionally, I HATE it! I want to see drivers going for it, all out. I want tires that last more than THREE FRIGGN LAPS! If I want to see strategy, I'll tune in the chess channel! And I don't watch racing for intellectual stimulation.

DRS - is it's purpose understood, here? Modern aero cars can't pass. The guy in the back is at a huge disadvantage. Removing the aero drag in the back is to make up for the aero wash in the front wings. Hopefully, nothing more.
And this kinda goes back to what I said above, as I also hate the various blocking techniques, and 'parade' tracks. I want to see the faster car get the pass. If the other car is as fast, he can reclaim his spot. Guess I'm not a fan of aero, period. Every advance has its drawbacks.

I'm not trilled with eras where one driver always wins, but if it's real racing - I don't mind. Like many, I've been thrilled with this season. But are the best cars or drivers winning? This 'thrilling season' may be a fraud.
I find DRS passes to be real, not like the Nascar passes that mean little.

I understand that F1 means something different to every one of us.

#275 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,948 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:41

To answer your other question, I think that maybe the small differences we see between teams are not due to some magic jump forward that has allowed the midfield teams to catch up (as Pirelli, FIA and excited star-eyed fans want to make believe or believe). Because no one is able to push at 100% the differences become smaller,

you think they dont push 100% in Q2/Q3? That MSC got 0,6 slower delta than NR in China?

#276 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,763 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:45

you think they dont push 100% in Q2/Q3? That MSC got 0,6 slower delta than NR in China?

I suppose you know pretty well that your post is out of touch. A few laps with pushing, each of them on a new set, is not we discuss here. And yes, even the they can't afford to overstress the tyres, because they need them for the race.

#277 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,948 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:57

I suppose you know pretty well that your post is out of touch. A few laps with pushing, each of them on a new set, is not we discuss here. And yes, even the they can't afford to overstress the tyres, because they need them for the race.

I suppose the idea of fellow moaner was that car are close because their race pace is fake, which I wanted to dispute with argument that they are separated by whisker in Q2 while drivers push as they can.

Edited by abc, 25 April 2012 - 17:58.


#278 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,667 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 25 April 2012 - 17:57

I suppose you know pretty well that your post is out of touch. A few laps with pushing, each of them on a new set, is not we discuss here. And yes, even the they can't afford to overstress the tyres, because they need them for the race.


Exactly. The sad part is that even qualifying, something that in the past gave us sometimes even more emotions that the race itself (see Senna), is now a formality, another element for the all important tyre "strategy" of the weekend. And not only tyres themselves are culprit but park ferme rules and tyre allocation. Ever tried doing a good job in anything without right and sufficient supplies?

#279 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,426 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:02

I suppose the idea of fellow moaner was that car are close because their race pace is fake, which I wanted to dispute with argument that they are separated by whisker in Q2 while drivers push as they can.


Erm, no. Some don't push to the limit in Q2. They push enough to get into Q3. You miss the calls in Q2 about the cut off time for Q3?

And quali pace compared to race pace can be deceiving because of fuel.

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 April 2012 - 18:02.


Advertisement

#280 abc

abc
  • Member

  • 1,948 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:09

Erm, no. Some don't push to the limit in Q2. They push enough to get into Q3. You miss the calls in Q2 about the cut off time for Q3?

And quali pace compared to race pace can be deceiving because of fuel.

If you think they are not pretty ****ing close (especially last two races), then you are not paying attention Im afraid.

The point is even the best have to go 99% whereas before they went almost half throttle to get in Q3, that means closer grid than ever in my eyes.

#281 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,426 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:19

If you think they are not pretty ****ing close (especially last two races), then you are not paying attention Im afraid.

The point is even the best have to go 99% whereas before they went almost half throttle to get in Q3, that means closer grid than ever in my eyes.


In Bahrein i see improvements of 0.7-1 sec between Q2 and Q3. China was a special case in Q3 due to track changing.

It's irrelevant anyway to one of the points being made : what if the closeness is due to the tires? And combined with their unpredictability and degradation is it good for F1?

Edited by Diablobb81, 25 April 2012 - 18:23.


#282 jbarokF1

jbarokF1
  • Member

  • 204 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:33

They say the races are looking fake because of the tyres...so I would like to raise another point..in GP2 they change the order of the grid, does it mean GP2 races are fake too???????

#283 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 25 April 2012 - 18:35

Yes. But worse.

#284 l8apex

l8apex
  • Member

  • 197 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 25 April 2012 - 21:15

I am pro DRS.

I am not for the current tire situation. Can we please get something that is in-between the current finicky, crazy Pirelli's and the last forever Bridgestone's?

#285 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,588 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 25 April 2012 - 23:09

I find DRS passes to be real, not like the Nascar passes that mean little.


really? wow.



personaly i find drs uncomfortable, seems like sometimes its ineffective, sometimes its overly effective, and rarely its just right, and if a slower car gets track position there a real sitting duck on some tracks

and the tyres, i know its really hard to make spec tyres, as whatever you do is wrong, pretty much, but if we could have tyres with some nascar goodyear characteristics then that would probably help. they dont marble the track as much, depending on the tyre they dont like a rubbered in surface :o, so the drivers have to move around the racetrack looking for grip - mostly where people havent run as much. the tyres do degrade but i dont think they have to baby them like in F1, and they dont fall off a cliff

Im ok with some races being about having to save the tyres, but its like *every* freaking race now, its tedious. and its not like the cars are sliding about alot on worn tyres, there driving carefully, or the tyres go and u have to pit because they become massively bad.

#286 Jaybools

Jaybools
  • Member

  • 260 posts
  • Joined: August 11

Posted 26 April 2012 - 07:42

Was never a fan of either and I ****ing despise the latest press release by Pirelli saying that "the best drivers will always succeed". First of all, isn't the statement a bit self explanatory? No shit the apparent best driver will always be succeeding... Morons. Secondly up until now, the best drivers have always been defined as the fastest drivers, which I and most people believe to be an accurate measurement as to who is the best driver and who isn't (to a certain extent, not 100%, maybe 80%). But now the "best driver" is defined as one who can look after their tires in such a fashion that they hold a respectable pace for the race's longevity, instead of the one who can hang the car on the edge for a large period of time.

This isn't in the spirit of Formula 1 or motor racing in general, and should be fixed. Pirelli have generally listened to feedback but the way they are acting towards the latest round of criticism is poor.

Also, tyres that degrade are great, however they should be able to take punishment/deal with heat and be a constant for the teams to build on, not a variable, which they appear to be nowadays. Who the hell knows when they're going to "drop off", how much will this drop off be, etc. teams appear to be flying blind and it's not good. Usually I would say "the teams should figure it out" but even after a couple of years it's still a complete unknown. Not good.

#287 black magic

black magic
  • Member

  • 3,835 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:30

with each race the mere fact that the team rankings are changeing without any consistancy suggests to me the teams have no ideas either on how to make them work - its as much a chance event as any process of working through issues. take any top team and we see a range from being the overall best to arguably 4th best.

great for change - but not by this mechanism. might as well start reverse grids

#288 RoutariEnjinu

RoutariEnjinu
  • Member

  • 2,344 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:41

Formula 1 is losing its appeal to me versus some other forms of motorsport due to the tyres. And I'll admit that I thought these jumbled up races of the past were a good thing, and tyres like this could only be a good thing.
I'll also say it takes nothing but skill and hard work to win in Formula 1 still. It's not random.

However, if you watch a rally stage, or Isle of Man TT for example, the drivers are going as quick as they dare. It's about balancing binning the whole car, versus your own ability and confidence and skill.

Formula 1 seems to now be about driving neatly and consistently, and balancing tyre wear and strategy calls.

Only for about 5 minutes in Q3 do we ever seem to see a Formula 1 car challenging a driver in terms of pure speed, being on the edge, and running a risk of having a lot to lose.

I think Alonso was right in Canada(?) a few years ago when the tyre allocation caught people by surprise. The race was an interesting break from the norm, but I'm quite sure now I'm going to lose interest in a different winner every week, and drivers lapping at 80% their mental capacity for speed, while effectively watching a thermometer and trying to keep it between two watermarks.


As for DRS, I'm not too bothered about that. It works well in some places.

#289 6string

6string
  • Member

  • 184 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:48

I think it's a shame we never got to see DRS and KERS during the Bridgestone era. One stop races might not be a bad thing if passing is possible. Having said that, the Pirelli era has been exciting to watch, but it does bother me that drivers don't push to the limit.

#290 PoliFanAthic

PoliFanAthic
  • Member

  • 639 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:49

Yeah, just to chip in on DRS, I think it's been alright this season.

#291 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,763 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 26 April 2012 - 09:24

It was said at the time that grooved tyres produced more marbles due to rubber tearing from the grooves. Therefore I was all for the return of slicks in the hope that we would see again more than one racing line. Only to be bitterly disappointed, the amount of litter is unacceptable from any POV - from sporting to ecological.

#292 phil1993

phil1993
  • Member

  • 1,933 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 26 April 2012 - 09:28

My personal view with DRS is it should be used at the point, or points, on the track where it is not the main overtaking zone.

For example, for Catalunya use the stretch between Campsa and the next corner (whatever it is, I forget), rather than the main straight. Because that would close the drivers up, not just provide a free pass.

#293 Snic

Snic
  • Member

  • 562 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:05

My personal view with DRS is it should be used at the point, or points, on the track where it is not the main overtaking zone.

For example, for Catalunya use the stretch between Campsa and the next corner (whatever it is, I forget), rather than the main straight. Because that would close the drivers up, not just provide a free pass.


Agreed.

DRS brings back slipstreaming, tracks like Monza used to be filled with slipstream overtakes, we haven't seen those for many years now. They seem to have made the zones a lot shorter this year and on the whole it hasn't detracted from the racing too much. I still think a limited number of DRS uses per driver per race would be a more fair way of doing things.

And the tyres this year are very close to being perfect. All they need to to is bring back that element of driver skill from last year where smooth drivers like Button could make the tyres work. The current lottery is incredibly entertaining but slightly disingenuous, and I imagine it is very frustrating to the teams.

Edited by Snic, 26 April 2012 - 10:05.


#294 skid solo

skid solo
  • Member

  • 2,094 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 26 April 2012 - 10:52

Was never a fan of either and I ****ing despise the latest press release by Pirelli saying that "the best drivers will always succeed". First of all, isn't the statement a bit self explanatory? No shit the apparent best driver will always be succeeding... Morons. Secondly up until now, the best drivers have always been defined as the fastest drivers, which I and most people believe to be an accurate measurement as to who is the best driver and who isn't (to a certain extent, not 100%, maybe 80%). But now the "best driver" is defined as one who can look after their tires in such a fashion that they hold a respectable pace for the race's longevity, instead of the one who can hang the car on the edge for a large period of time.

This isn't in the spirit of Formula 1 or motor racing in general, and should be fixed. Pirelli have generally listened to feedback but the way they are acting towards the latest round of criticism is poor.

Also, tyres that degrade are great, however they should be able to take punishment/deal with heat and be a constant for the teams to build on, not a variable, which they appear to be nowadays. Who the hell knows when they're going to "drop off", how much will this drop off be, etc. teams appear to be flying blind and it's not good. Usually I would say "the teams should figure it out" but even after a couple of years it's still a complete unknown. Not good.


Agreed. :up:

Last year I started a thread about this issue and many so called fans of F1 said "tyre management has always been a part of F1" I agree, it has always been a PART With the current regs Tyres have become everything to the detriment of the drivers, the engineers and the tracks. We have one supplier and one racing line and the person that gets the tyres into the operating window wins. I never missed a GP in 30 years either live or recorded. I have watched one so far this year live and the rest on BBC iplayer as highlights and its getting to the point I don't miss them at all.. How can it be racing when a driver capable of qualifying on the front row every race can't keep up with a car coming through from 11th place by virtue of saving his tyres for the race? A total load of horse shit :down:

#295 uffen

uffen
  • Member

  • 890 posts
  • Joined: April 04

Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:18

DRS is wrong. It is just plain improper to place a penalty on the car (and driver) that is legitimately ahead. If the rule had been proposed as "The leading driver must deploy an air brake if someone is close behind him" people would have been outraged. The current rule is basically the same thing.
The Pirelli pendulum has swung too far in one direction. It seems that the belief was "what we did last year was pretty good, so if we do more this year it will be even better."
When the drivers start to complain publically you know something is amiss.

I believe that Pirelli hears the message and will quietly do something to bring a better balance to tire performance. As for DRS, well I guess I'll keep cringing.

#296 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:26

... the latest press release by Pirelli saying that "the best drivers will always succeed"...

I was disappointed to hear that, but not surprised. Hembery has not understood anything what people around the series are telling him, and what's worst, I am not even sure if he is trying to understand that slowing cars in this manner will ultimately damage product, which is traditional F1 style racing. It's time for someone else then to enforce the change.

Edited by Sakae, 26 April 2012 - 11:28.


#297 Neophiliac

Neophiliac
  • Member

  • 279 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 26 April 2012 - 13:42

with each race the mere fact that the team rankings are changeing without any consistancy suggests to me the teams have no ideas either on how to make them work - its as much a chance event as any process of working through issues. take any top team and we see a range from being the overall best to arguably 4th best.

great for change - but not by this mechanism. might as well start reverse grids


I still don't know why that idea gets as much flak as it does. Take your average "impossible to overtake" F1 car of 2005-07 vintage, reverse the grid from championship order and you get... Suzuka 2005. And it's all completely fair, totally sporting/meritocratic, has no "lottery aspect to it, and involves no pass-assists like DRS, KERS or soft-cheese tyres. Just pure f..ing racing for position nearly 100% all the time - because how else are you gonna get the points? And no, an HRT would not win a race in a reverse grid formula.

Naturally, if you have the cars starting the race in the order of their speed, the only way you get any kind of a show is by introducing stuff like we have now: i.e. (1) various devices to help the cars behind get ahead like DRS and (2) elements that make Saturday form not predictive of Sunday form like tyres that flip performance when track tems change by 5 degrees. Qualifying is a fine tradition in F1 that dates back to its beginning, and I get that, but when it comes to Sundays, it makes for a bloody mess of a puzzle to solve.

#298 Octavian

Octavian
  • Member

  • 703 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 26 April 2012 - 20:20

I was disappointed to hear that, but not surprised. Hembery has not understood anything what people around the series are telling him, and what's worst, I am not even sure if he is trying to understand that slowing cars in this manner will ultimately damage product, which is traditional F1 style racing. It's time for someone else then to enforce the change.


Have you ever read his twitter? You can see from that how one dimensional his thinking is. The best examples were in response to people criticising the tyres after Schumacher's comments on Sunday. He's very very rigid in his thinking and that really can't help the situation.

#299 RealRacing

RealRacing
  • Member

  • 1,667 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 26 April 2012 - 21:31

Have you ever read his twitter? You can see from that how one dimensional his thinking is. The best examples were in response to people criticising the tyres after Schumacher's comments on Sunday. He's very very rigid in his thinking and that really can't help the situation.


@PaulHembery http://www.ipetition......f1-tyres/... Now if anyone knows his boss's twitter address, I'll send it to him as well.

Edited by RealRacing, 26 April 2012 - 23:14.


Advertisement

#300 fieraku

fieraku
  • Member

  • 5,304 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:11

Courtesy of Maverick.....

"If anyone tells you they can alter the tyre temperature with set-up they are bullshitting," said the straight-talking Permane. "Anyone who says that they know how to change their degradation is bullshitting.

"Everyone would love to do that and people think they can do, to some extent. Mercedes have a quick car and a lot of clever people, but look at their race pace in the first two races. It was awful. If it was easy, they would have done it.

"We spent all of last year trying to stop our rear degradation and it really is ever so difficult. You can play around with suspension geometries, and it's relatively straightforward to design a different geometry, but how do you test it? It's so difficult in-season. You get one set of tyres in P1 and two for P2, so how do you measure the difference between two sessions with changing conditions?"



As my teenage daughter would say, Pirelli F1 tyres are "pants". If you like these tyres and actually think they are fit for purpose, then so be it. I've always maintained the races with these joke tyres are exciting to the extent, DRS, KERS and Rhubarb Crumble non-racable new vs old tyres increase the overtaking, and the cars are closer compared to previous era's, but when analysed, even by the untrained eye, the inevitable conclusion is the racing is contrived and fake. With NASCAR, at least you know what you are signing up for. Competition yellows and yellow flags thrown if a plastic bag is blowing at turn 4 is par for the course. :rolleyes: Without the Yellow flags(and I watch NASCAR regularly) 80% of the field would be lapped and most of them would be lapped several times. The gap between the Hendricks/Roush Fenways/Gibbs/Penske/Michael Waltrip Racing vs teams like Chip Ganassi/JTG Daugherty/Front Row Motorsports etc is massive. BUT their is an important caveat. When they are racing, especially during the last 20-30 laps of a race, these guys are going flat out, because the Goodyears are fit for purpose. Can F1 claim the same?


I'd be happier if F1 implemented caution yellows and kept the Racing real instead of the Pirelli/DRS gimmicks,fake passes,fake racing or what I like to call F1 Pacing.

Edited by fieraku, 27 April 2012 - 11:12.