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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing


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#3951 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 23:36

Mark Webber on the pre race show said , very carefully that managing the tyres is really the ONLY thing these days. And his Q3 lap the tyres had gone off in the last sector. 1 LAP RACE TYRES. Really what a joke F1 is these days.
I went to sleep about lap 10 and woke up for the presentation. probably about what the racing deserved!
And the only reason I bothered was the presentation started at 9pm. Any later and I would not have bothered.
Alonsos first few corners were very good however.

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#3952 EthanM

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 23:38

Red Bulls strength has not been producing proportionately more downforce at higher speeds for some time now already. We're not in 2010/11 any longer. They've just had the better blowing which culminated in better mid range downforce.


Your posts are getting more inaccurate by the minute, its quite funny actually :)

Do you also think bendy front wings were a clever way to produce more downforce?

Hint for future reading: The higher raked car will by default have a steeper downforce curve. It's aerodynamics 101. Has nothing to do with how well red bull was sealing the diffuser with the hot air from the exhaust. It's a by product. But the overall design philosophy of the Red Bull has been the same inspite of the loss of blown diffusers, engine maps (those are the ones that helped produce mid speed downforce by the way) etc.

#3953 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 23:41

Mark Webber on the pre race show said , very carefully that managing the tyres is really the ONLY thing these days. And his Q3 lap the tyres had gone off in the last sector. 1 LAP RACE TYRES. Really what a joke F1 is these days.


:eek: Uh? What are you crying about? Nearly every tyre I´ve seen used in F1 had a "super grip" phase of around 1 lap, then a drop off that make them useless for quali purposes. And the most prominent example are not Pirellis, but 2004 Michelin tyres.

It´s really strange event a tyre producing a second flying lap as fast as the first one, it´s happened a handful of times in 2010 and in USA 2012 recently, but certainly it´s unusual. You´re just not understanding what Mark says there, it´s not the tyres aren´t usable anymore, it´s just that they´ve given all the "super-grip" phase.

#3954 Kingshark

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 23:49

I've been one of the few posters to defend Pirelli up until now, but when Lewis Hamilton comes on the team radio and says: "I can't go any slower", they you know that Pirelli have gone way too far.

Today's race was pathetic, and this is coming from a huge Ferrari fan.

#3955 discover23

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 00:01

Nice piece of opinion from Will Buxton, but he simply forgets Ferrari would've won it just as well on a 3 stop strategy. They simply had the fastest car today. It's like Schumacher/Brawn winning Magny-Course on a unheard-of-4-stopper in 2004. If you have the pace, more strategies become available to you. Yet he wraps his whole article around it like it's some genius move that won them the race.

I doubt they would have beaten Lotus on 3 stops. Kimi was still posting very fast times with older tires. For Alonso to be able to match those time he would have have had to drive slower in the first two stints. Lotus is still one stop better than the other cars.
Ferrari are not there yet. Vettel was so far back mainly because they went into the race prepared for 3 stops and then had to react to Alonso/massa's 4 stops but by then it was too late. He stayed too long, losing too much time to Alonso who pitted earlier .
Something similat happened to Alonso a few years ago in Canada, where they had a very fast car but played their cards wrong.

#3956 McLarenNo1

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 00:15

Yes, that's a wild guess alright. If we count the difference in the total race time, and take away the extra pit-stops, how much time is left? That really is a badly thought out argument, no offense. It falls flat on the face of the numbers immediately. The total race time difference is a few pages back, take a look.

Secondly, the final stint is a horrible comparison unless you pick someone who is actually trying to chase somebody. Otherwise, even in years before, teams turn down the revs and preserve the car. It's only logical.

I should probably have said at least lapped twice instead. That is quite a big difference with the same car.

The same would go for 2010 then but wait even with much older tyres, they are lapping 3-5 seconds a lap faster than cars currently with Pirellis do on their final stints. Opening stint is much faster in Bridgestone in 2010 than the fastest stints on low fuel in 2013.

#3957 ZZei

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 00:26

Read some Prost quotes. The Professor, the undisputed genius of tyre saving, had it figured out decades ago that the way to save tyres is to go light on downforce. That is if you can still handle the car and throttle at less downforce. I'll trust him over you on this if you don't mind.

Well, while that is what the teams and drivers should do and stop complaining. Dont remember who it was, someone of the lotus engineers though said that kimi had wheelspin 2 times during the entire Australian GP.


#3958 ZZei

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 00:31

I've been one of the few posters to defend Pirelli up until now, but when Lewis Hamilton comes on the team radio and says: "I can't go any slower", they you know that Pirelli have gone way too far.

Today's race was pathetic, and this is coming from a huge Ferrari fan.

Am I sensing sarcasm? Oh, its Kingshark, anythings possible.

#3959 iakhtar

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:11

Schumacher was spot on last year with his comments, I think it was at the build up of the Spanish gp too, yet nobody took him seriously. People thought they knew better than a 7x wdc I guess.

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#3960 pingu666

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:50

gp2 comparison is abit iffy as they get the same tyres as f1

#3961 discover23

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:02

Last year at the start of the season we had a very similar situation with some people conplaining.. After the halfway point, the teams had already figured out the tires and some teams were finishing races with just one stop, the FiA was not too happy about this and they asked Pirelli to make tires for this year that would degrade faster - this is what we have today.. Today they went a little too far with one more stop than what they had anticipated.. Maybe it had to do with the circuit, but the other 4 races we've had 2 and 3 pit stops which is exactly what they said they would be delivering.

Edited by discover23, 13 May 2013 - 02:26.


#3962 boldhakka

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:32

It's not even that they're not pushing. Horner and Vettel have brainwashed the masses. They are pushing for a decent amount of the time it is just that the "TYRE" keeps getting slower due to its degradation which is something that the Bridgestones didn't suffer from. .


No, It isn't quite so simple. There are some drivers that are just pushing early on and dealing with increased tyre wear, but most have caught on that not pushing will extend the life of the tyres dramatically. see Irridiscents post. It's a completely different approach.

#3963 boldhakka

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:33

Last year at the start of the season we had a very similar situation with some people conplaining.. After the halfway point, the teams had already figured out the tires and some teams were finishing races with just one stop, the FiA was not too happy about this and they asked Pirelli to make tires for this year that would degrade faster - this is what we have today.. Today they went a little too far with one more stop than what they had anticipated.. Maybe it had to do with the circuit, but the other 4 races we've had 2 and 3 pit stops which is exactly what they said they would be delivering.


Why are the number of pit stops an important metric?

#3964 ViMaMo

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:36

Can we have two races?

Race one: 25 laps on super durable tyres. No fuel pit stops.
Race two: 35 laps on butter cream tyres that don't last more than 10 odd laps.

Both kind of fans are happy right?

#3965 discover23

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:43

Why are the number of pit stops an important metric?

Because the fia wants the teams to play with the different strategies/number of pit stops, influencing the outcome of races, to spice up the show and make the races more interesting to the average viewer.

#3966 baddog

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:52

Last year at the start of the season we had a very similar situation with some people conplaining.. After the halfway point, the teams had already figured out the tires and some teams were finishing races with just one stop, the FiA was not too happy about this and they asked Pirelli to make tires for this year that would degrade faster - this is what we have today.. Today they went a little too far with one more stop than what they had anticipated.. Maybe it had to do with the circuit, but the other 4 races we've had 2 and 3 pit stops which is exactly what they said they would be delivering.

This is because of the stupidity of starting out by making tyres which don't wear progressively based on driver aggression and slip but on thermal envelopes, so that getting the 'envelope' right means you can go 30 laps, and not getting it right by a couple of degrees means you can do 8. None of this difference being based on genuine driver skill but on peculiar setups and speed management.

The reason they 'went too far' is because the entire principle they are working on is disastrous. Only going back to basics and starting again will fix it. What is needed is a pretty conventional race tyre. These things are a frankensteinian mess.

#3967 Kingshark

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:00

Am I sensing sarcasm? Oh, its Kingshark, anythings possible.

My posts are always knowledgeable, reasonable, objective, unbiased, detailed, insightful, and can be used as factual arguments in any debate. :wave:

#3968 Menace

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:26

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#3969 krea

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:40

Because the fia wants the teams to play with the different strategies/number of pit stops, influencing the outcome of races, to spice up the show and make the races more interesting to the average viewer.


The easiest way would be to change the rule about refuelling

#3970 Sakae

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:57

Is there anything new we can say about 2013 specification, which hasn't been said already dozen times before, yet some fans are the only ones who are bothered by "tiregate", because Pirelli as personified by one Mr. Hembery are continuing their own happy ways, so what's the point, other than put up, or turn away?

#3971 np93

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:24

There was one defining moment in the race that tipped me into thinking it's gone too far. Raikkonen and Vettel were having their dice, and Bianchi was following. Now, both of their qualifying times were 3.7 seconds ahead of Bianchi's, and yet Vettel couldn't pull away. From a Marussia. All because of the tyres. To me that's too far that a much quicker car just cannot shake another because of tyre age.

#3972 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:56

ferenc_k: Fantastic post relating to Will Buxton. If people saw Moss' Argentine win today, they would be screaming 'How could he win like that? He was not pushing. He was driving to delta, blah blah'.

Just a quick note about the Stirling Moss anecdote from Will Buxton - did Stirling have someone in his ear througout the race telling him 'Stirling go slower on this lap' 'Stirling lift in turn 3 to conserve your left rear tyre' 'Stirling your left front tyre is 7 degrees above optimum' 'Stirling don't race this guy, let him past'?

If not I see a big difference right there.

Do you hear someone telling Alonso or Raikkonen that? In that sense, these two are old school drivers. Their knowledge and feel for the car is so good that they navigate their cars very much like the drivers from the old times. Probably the lesser drivers of the present generation are too spoiled and can't approach a race strategically. They know only two things - sprint or lift.

Edited by SpaMaster, 13 May 2013 - 07:06.


#3973 motorhead

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:06

"So if I said we were going to make a change, I know I am going to have the podium people today not happy – then you [the media] will be here at Silverstone telling me we have given the championship to Red Bull. It will be damned if you, damned if you don't."

From the frontside news. This is the dilemma, if Pirelli changes the tires someone will win and someone will lose. This forum would go nuts if Vettel starts dominating again becouse of different approach by Pirelli

#3974 SpaMaster

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:10

There was one defining moment in the race that tipped me into thinking it's gone too far. Raikkonen and Vettel were having their dice, and Bianchi was following. Now, both of their qualifying times were 3.7 seconds ahead of Bianchi's, and yet Vettel couldn't pull away. From a Marussia. All because of the tyres. To me that's too far that a much quicker car just cannot shake another because of tyre age.

But Raikkonen sped like a rocket away from Vettel. Looks like it was Red Bull's problem, not Lotus'.

#3975 Ferrari2183

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:11

Do you hear someone telling Alonso or Raikkonen that? In that sense, these two are old school drivers. Their knowledge and feel for the car is so good that they navigate their cars very much like the drivers from the old times. Probably the lesser drivers of the present generation are too spoiled and can't approach a race strategically. They know only two things - sprint or lift.

This!

I just posted in the Ferrari thread that the bulk of the teams attempted 3 stopping by analysing the timing of the pit stops and Lotus were the only ones who pulled it off while Ferrari were about the only team who didn't even consider 3 stopping and came out on top. I think all the teams were just caught unaware by it and it exaggerated the gaps...

Before the race even started, Gary Anderson said he would throw the 3 stopper out of the window because you're always driving a few tenths slower and if you lose time in that first stint by doing so you will never recover it. Look how that worked out...

#3976 krea

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:24

ferenc_k: Fantastic post relating to Will Buxton. If people saw Moss' Argentine win today, they would be screaming 'How could he win like that? He was not pushing. He was driving to delta, blah blah'.


Do you hear someone telling Alonso or Raikkonen that? In that sense, these two are old school drivers. Their knowledge and feel for the car is so good that they navigate their cars very much like the drivers from the old times. Probably the lesser drivers of the present generation are too spoiled and can't approach a race strategically. They know only two things - sprint or lift.


That's kind of funny.
Vettel's Red Bull was in Bahrain in the small window where the tires were working and he won without any problems. It's all about if the team can make the tires work and not about some weird old school bullshit.

The only reason you don't hear any complains it that the Ferrari and Lotus do have an adventage with these tires.

#3977 Ferrari2183

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:38

That's kind of funny.
Vettel's Red Bull was in Bahrain in the small window where the tires were working and he won without any problems. It's all about if the team can make the tires work and not about some weird old school bullshit.

The only reason you don't hear any complains it that the Ferrari and Lotus do have an adventage with these tires.

What about Massa?

#3978 rasul

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:43

Do you hear someone telling Alonso or Raikkonen that? In that sense, these two are old school drivers. Their knowledge and feel for the car is so good that they navigate their cars very much like the drivers from the old times. Probably the lesser drivers of the present generation are too spoiled and can't approach a race strategically. They know only two things - sprint or lift.


I'm sorry, but this is highly illogical, to say the least. So Mark Webber isn't an old school driver? Or Button? Yet they have been having as much problem as the "lesser drivers of the present generation." What happened in Bahrain, then? Why the lesser driver of the present generation won the race, managing the tyres better than the superior old school driver? Alonso and Kimi aren't complaining because the tyres benefitting their teams, simple as that.

#3979 SophieB

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:52

I really don't think that's the case. This has been building for some time. Fernando did a great job today but the GP is completely incomprehensible now. There are no real on track battles - cars just drive past one another, quite often it's because they're on different strategies so no point racing. You end up with a completely incomprehensible mess. The 'sport' is completely ruined at the moment. It's utter, utter nonsense and people will be turning off in their droves. It's like the embodiment of Ecclestone, the 'racing' has become as insane as he is.

I also, really resent Hembrey's response to everything which is 'okay, we'll just make tyres so red bull win'. We are not in a binary situation here where we either have these tyres or ones that'll let red bull walk away with it. We've got tyres delaminating, we don't have enough tyres for all the teams to qualify probably and compete in the race. Tyres are lasting 8 laps in the first stint. 8 LAPS!!! Can you imagine if someone told you that's what the situation would be 3 years ago when Pirelli came in, they'd think that you were absolutely crazy. Now there's people saying that it's a good thing. Craziness. I'm not sure i'll be watching this 'sport' any more because it bares no relation to the one I used to hold dear.


You are spot on. He's like a petulant kid who threatens to go home and take the ball with him if people don't stop arguing with him. And as if the only two possible ways of running F1 are with the current dangerous farce or everlasting tyres. Maybe he can take to grabbing a pile of old 2010 Bridgestones and say 'look at them, audience LOOK AT THEM! Take what we give you now and like it or we bring THESE BACK.' Like those things were the bogeyman or something.

And it would be fair seeing as the old Bridgestones are the only other tyres in the world, as this discussion and Hembery have taught me.

Edited by SophieB, 13 May 2013 - 07:53.


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#3980 toxicfusion

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:17

What annoys me is this will just lead to a situation where the second half of the season is boring. Just like it was in 2011 and 2012, where the teams had worked out the tyres and Pirelli started being conservative with their tyre choices. The Indian GP in 2011 the hard tyre could have done another GP distance, it was that durable.

Each year Pirelli have made the tyres softer because otherwise the teams would have worked them out and their wouldn't be any unpredictability and Red Bull would have won everything.

That said, they have gone too far this year. Hopefully the tyres are somewhere between the 2012 and 2013 from Britain onwards.

#3981 krea

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:20

What about Massa?


What is with Massa?

#3982 PretentiousBread

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:31

What about Massa?


Finished miles behind his team mate yet still managed the podium, clearly the car is working well with this rubber.

#3983 ExFlagMan

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:31

I really don't think that's the case. This has been building for some time. Fernando did a great job today but the GP is completely incomprehensible now. There are no real on track battles - cars just drive past one another, quite often it's because they're on different strategies so no point racing. You end up with a completely incomprehensible mess. The 'sport' is completely ruined at the moment. It's utter, utter nonsense and people will be turning off in their droves. It's like the embodiment of Ecclestone, the 'racing' has become as insane as he is.

Not a lot different to the 'great days' of fuel stops then

#3984 Gintonious

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:36

So what type of changes will be made to the rubber then? Will it be a completely new compound to stop RB crying or just small changes.

#3985 Spa

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:40

TBH I love what Pirelli and DRS brought to the sport.

I don’t think it would be fair a big change to the tyres in the middle of the season, compounds are the same for everyone, however some tweaks would be justified, but for safety reasons not because of speed or the number of stops in races…

Cheers! ;-)

Edited by Spa, 13 May 2013 - 08:43.


#3986 Ferrari2183

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:46

What is with Massa?

You say it's Ferrari and Lotus that have an advantage but yet Massa seems to have similar issues with the tyres as other drivers. In fact Massa's is more erratic because first its the fronts then its the rears... He is all over the place.

Alonso and Raikkonen, on their own or together with the team, have found a way to get the most out of the tyres just as Vettel and Hamilton (Red Bull and McLaren) found a way to generate temps in 2011/12 while others were struggling.

You didn't hear Ferrari, Lotus and half the grid bitching about Pirelli changing compounds and structures... In fact they admitted that it was an area they need to work on.

Red Bull have played this really smart as now they have the public behind them as well. I say let Pirelli make the changes although I don't think it is as bad as some are letting on and lets see if Red Bull complain once again.

#3987 krea

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:52

You say it's Ferrari and Lotus that have an advantage but yet Massa seems to have similar issues with the tyres as other drivers. In fact Massa's is more erratic because first its the fronts then its the rears... He is all over the place.

Alonso and Raikkonen, on their own or together with the team, have found a way to get the most out of the tyres just as Vettel and Hamilton (Red Bull and McLaren) found a way to generate temps in 2011/12 while others were struggling.

You didn't hear Ferrari, Lotus and half the grid bitching about Pirelli changing compounds and structures... In fact they admitted that it was an area they need to work on.

Red Bull have played this really smart as now they have the public behind them as well. I say let Pirelli make the changes although I don't think it is as bad as some are letting on and lets see if Red Bull complain once again.


You say Massa is shit and can't the tires but the was still third in Spain and fifht in the drivers' standings - most likely he will overtake Hamilton soon. That's way better than the Massa of the last years.
It's obvious that the teams which have an adventage right now don't complain. The only reason Kimi is second is because of the tires, they would be silly if they want different tires now.

Edited by krea, 13 May 2013 - 08:54.


#3988 moorsey

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:56

This is because of the stupidity of starting out by making tyres which don't wear progressively based on driver aggression and slip but on thermal envelopes, so that getting the 'envelope' right means you can go 30 laps, and not getting it right by a couple of degrees means you can do 8. None of this difference being based on genuine driver skill but on peculiar setups and speed management.

The reason they 'went too far' is because the entire principle they are working on is disastrous. Only going back to basics and starting again will fix it. What is needed is a pretty conventional race tyre. These things are a frankensteinian mess.


Spot on.

If they want to set up races to have three stops just change the rules to read "every car must stop three times". Then at least we can see some bloody racing again rather than this farce at the moment.
I for one will not be wasting my weekends on watching this rubbish. A quick look at the results will be as interesting as it gets for me for a while.

#3989 Ferrari2183

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:58

You say Massa is shit and can't the tires but the was still third in Spain and fifht in the drivers' standings - most likely he will overtake Hamilton soon. That's way better than the Massa of the last years.

I'm not saying Massa is shit. I'm saying he seems to be having variable tyre issues just like the other drivers so it is not all down to the car as you've pointed out.

Also, is so hard to fathom that Massa is up there in terms of points? The last time he drove a car of similar calibre was 2010 and he was scoring good points then too...

#3990 makroncommander

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:05


Atleast this season we have a competitive season going on.

5 races 3 different winners. If Pirelli change the tyres it'll be one winner.

We hear about Red bull being hard on it's tires, big disadvantage for them while Lotus and Ferrari have an advantage.

Who's leading the championships??




#3991 Ferrari2183

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:13

Spot on.

If they want to set up races to have three stops just change the rules to read "every car must stop three times". Then at least we can see some bloody racing again rather than this farce at the moment.
I for one will not be wasting my weekends on watching this rubbish. A quick look at the results will be as interesting as it gets for me for a while.

Why not just give each entrant bespoke tyres as well if that's the case and lets see how rapidly costs rise as a consequence.

I still think the best solution to the tyre mess is the removal of all tyre restrictions. Pirelli provides durable super soft, soft, medium, hard and qualifying specific tyres and let the teams decide to do what with what depending on there car.

That way you will get variable strategies, drivers pushing or nursing and we won't have this moaning.

#3992 pRy

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:18

Whatever happened to the suggestion a few years back that they'd look at changing the aero rules to reduce the power that people like Newey had over the cars? They seemed to start looking into it and then nothing more was ever said.. and now we have them messing with the tyres to try and spice things up. Why not just reduce the impact of aerodynamics on the cars?

#3993 zottzell

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:20

I'm sorry, but this is highly illogical, to say the least. So Mark Webber isn't an old school driver? Or Button? Yet they have been having as much problem as the "lesser drivers of the present generation." What happened in Bahrain, then? Why the lesser driver of the present generation won the race, managing the tyres better than the superior old school driver? Alonso and Kimi aren't complaining because the tyres benefitting their teams, simple as that.


You're absolutely right which is why you wouldn't hear any complaining from Red Bull or Mercedes if they were on top of the tire conundrum, I'm also pretty darn sure that lots on the forum and the English press would think that everything would be a-okey as long as Lewis was on top and the rest struggled.
I mean Mercedes basically had the same problem last year, but then the tire wear was considered okey as there was two Germans driving the car.

The fact is that Red Bull basically made a tactical error in Barcelona and that cost them the chance for a podium finish, The Lotus in Kimi's hands is easy enough on the tires so they can get away with one less pitstop. Red Bull however should have gone the Ferrari route and early went with the four stop plan, instead they wasted a lot of time driving to deltas trying to shadow Kimi. I'm sure Vettel would have been able to push harder if they planned it better.
Mercedes problems is the same as last year and they need to get on top of that, I mean if Lotus can do it with their budget and resources surely Mercedes should be able do it as well?

#3994 Ferrari2183

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:39

The large number of pit stops in the Spanish Grand Prix has reignited the debate about whether the fragile Pirelli tyres are good or bad for F1.

The tyres are part of the car and some teams are using them better than others.

Barcelona is always very tough on the tyres - and back in the tyre-war days sometimes you would get two or maybe three laps out of the softer tyres and then be five or six seconds a lap slower for the next four or five laps before they cleaned up and you could push again.

Tyre management has always been part of F1, no matter what anyone will tell you, and there has never been a time when a driver could push flat-out for the entire race distance.

Having said that, personally I think four stops is too many.

Pirelli want to have two or three stops and that would be about right. Any more and it gets confusing for people who are not following the race that closely - which, in reality, is most of the audience.

The last thing we want is a choice between one or two stops. That would be horrendous at some tracks - boring, processional races.

Of more serious concern is that there were more tyre failures in Spain - on Paul di Resta's Force India in practice and then Jean-Eric Vergne's Toro Rosso in the race - to follow the three in Bahrain. And Alonso had a puncture prior to his final pit stop which Ferrari caught before it caused a problem.

Pirelli has admitted it is concerned about the situation.

They are blaming cuts in the tyre but I do not buy into that. There is no reason if that was the case for the rubber to sheer off in the way it is.

At each grand prix, 616 sets of dry-weather tyres are used. To date there have been four tread delamination failures from the 3,080 sets of tyres used in the first five races. That is not often enough for it to be an inherent design problem. I believe it is more to do with quality control.

Pirelli tyres have always had some internal blistering, where the inner rubber of the tyre overheats.

This year, the carcass of the tyre has been reinforced to keep more of the tyre in contact with the track, with the idea of reducing the wear on the inside shoulder that was being seen last year.

But that means the tyre has a very different working environment at high speed.

At high speed, the rubber tread is subject to very high centrifugal forces. With the reinforced carcass, the tread-to-carcass bonding is put under increased stress. With the elevated temperatures some cars suffer from, it goes too far and the rubber can peal off the carcass.

The fastest cars are a second a lap quicker than they were last year - a performance increase of just over 1%.

A lot of sheer-load is going into the tyre. There is so much cornering force - more than 5G - and braking force - 6G - and I think in some cases that, combined with the centrifugal forces, is proving too much for the tyres to cope with.



#3995 pRy

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:08

The question i'd ask GA is when yesterday did anyone push flat out?

#3996 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:25

The tyres were definitely too high wearing yesterday. Oddly enough it seems the DRS was just about right though, as it wasn't creating automatic overtakes, but getting people close, like the old fashioned slipstreaming it's supposed to be re-creating.

I'm of the opinion that the ideal situation would be tyres that would make the average driver/car package would need a 2-stop race. Then depending on the circuit, some would risk a single stop if they could look after their tyres, or some would push harder and make a 3rd stop.

Although I'd also quite like the same situation but with one fewer stop for all. Where a one-stop was average. An aggressive strategy would be 2-stops and non-stopping would be an option. It would mean changing the rules about using different compounds in the race though.

#3997 rasul

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:40

You're absolutely right which is why you wouldn't hear any complaining from Red Bull or Mercedes if they were on top of the tire conundrum, I'm also pretty darn sure that lots on the forum and the English press would think that everything would be a-okey as long as Lewis was on top and the rest struggled.
I mean Mercedes basically had the same problem last year, but then the tire wear was considered okey as there was two Germans driving the car.


You're correct. It's completely normal that Ferrari and Lotus aren't complaining about the tyres as it's absolutely normal that Red Bull and Merc are. All teams are looking out for their own interests. Everyone has an agenda. But it doesn't mean that those who are complaining are wrong about tyres playing too big a role, ruining racing and being downright dangerous. Tyre management has always been part of F1, but not to this ridiculous degree.

For fans of the drivers benefiting from these tyres this might be turning out to be a great season, but expecting that everyone else would like the lack of racing is too much. I don't actively support any driver(well, I'm a long-time Ferrari fan who wants Ferrari to win the WCC, but who doesn't care much for Alonso and Massa's individual success; I like Lewis, but I'm far from being his fanboy; I have come to respect Vettel, but I won't support him until he becomes a Ferrari driver), so I just want to watch some great racing, pushing, drivers defending and overtaking without consulting their teamradio. "My tyres are finished," "Don’t fight, run your race," "Look after the tyres," "I can’t go any slower." If I never hear it again, it will be too soon.

Edited by rasul, 13 May 2013 - 10:55.


#3998 Jamiednm

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:47


Pirelli should have approached the seasons the other way around - make proper race tyres that teams can predict and work with and then develop them to be more grippy but less durable (to a certain extent) through the season. At least then teams will know how to work the tyres, car performance will win out and the racing would probably get closer as the season progresses.

At the moment, there seems to be little design in victories - it's more to do with who can get their car in to a certain operating window for the tyres more than anything else.

#3999 doc83

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:48

The "tires are the same for everyone" argument....

The 2020 F1 Sepang, Malaysia Grand Prix


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#4000 prty

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:08

Seems that Hembery said it clear:

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1
Hembery: "Unless u all want us to give Red Bull tyres to win championship. (One-stop processional races), one team would benefit. Them”

Then you read:

Red Bull owner Mateschitz says F1 is not racing anymore

Contrast with 2011 and his "the tyres are the same for everybody" comment :D