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Flight Lt. Harry Torin's 8C-3000 Maserati


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#1 ERault

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 19:28

In its march 1939 issue, Motor Sport published an account on some testing at Brooklands of Lt Torin's two-seater 8C-3000 Maserati. W. Boddy (he was the happy passenger) discussed the experience again in the january 1983 issue, where a photo of the car is published. It was road-equipped and registered FGC 412. The Maserati will be the subject of several letters in the following issues. According to Ken Stewart (may 1983), it was offered for sale in 1938 by Ace Motors (23 Oldbury Place, High Street, Marylebone W1) through an advertisement in The Autocar for 1938, may 13th.

I am looking for a copy of this advertisement. Can somebody help ? Thank you (any other bits of knowledge on the car are most welcomed, too)

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 19:48

I can't help with the advertisement (can you imagine the space 50 years of Autocars takes?) but believe the car was the first 3-litre car built (3001). After Torin's time it was campaigned in UK events around 1949-52 by Roland Dutt under the new reg. number HLH 310. It subsequently went back and forth across the Atlantic a couple of times and I believe is now owned by one of the Rettenmaier brothers in Germany

#3 JB Miltonian

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 21:43

I note that there is a Salon article on Maserati 8C-3000 #3002, written by Cyril Posthumus, in Road & Track, August 1983. It is mentioned in this article that #3002 was sold (approximately 1946) through John Wyer's Ace Motors, to T.A.S.O. Mathieson. Did both 3001 and 3002 pass through Ace Motors, or is one of these listings incorrect?

#4 ERault

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 19:09

I had forgotten Wyer was associated with Ace Motors, thanks for that. I too have read Mathieson got 3002 through Wyer, but I don't have the details.

Meanwhile, here is the photo of Torin's Maserati in 1939, for those who don't have access to MS :

http://www.maserati-...k/alfieri59.htm (picture 6)


#5 Simon Thomas

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 12:57

I had forgotten Wyer was associated with Ace Motors, thanks for that. I too have read Mathieson got 3002 through Wyer, but I don't have the details.

Meanwhile, here is the photo of Torin's Maserati in 1939, for those who don't have access to MS :

http://www.maserati-...k/alfieri59.htm (picture 6)

John Dugdale's book Great Motorsport of the Thirties mentions the Torin Maserati in connection with " Fastest Road Car" Race at Brooklands. Torin wrote to Dugdale as follows;" I would like to bring to your notice a car of which I am the owner and which I think would have little difficulty in seeing off Mr Hunter's Alfa Romeo". Dugdale continued "This was no less than the 1933 works team reserve 3-litre Maserati with which Nuvolari won the Belgian GP that year". Torin claimed the car lapped Brooklands at 124mph in full touring trim. The car did not compete in the actual race so we will never know how it would have compared with the other cars but somehow I doubt if Torin had the racecraft of the other drivers.
Simon Thomas

#6 GIGLEUX

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 13:13

"This was no less than the 1933 works team reserve 3-litre Maserati with which Nuvolari won the Belgian GP that year". Torin claimed the car lapped Brooklands at 124mph in full touring trim. The car did not compete in the actual race so we will never know how it would have compared with the other cars but somehow I doubt if Torin had the racecraft of the other drivers.


Except tha Nuvolari won the 1933 Belgian GP with the 8CM #3007 and not a 8C3000!


#7 Simon Thomas

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 13:28

Except tha Nuvolari won the 1933 Belgian GP with the 8CM #3007 and not a 8C3000!

One would have thought Dugdale might have checked his facts? When he wrote the book in 1977 he says there is many a slip in the memory after 40 years. The book was a good read when I bought it at the time now 34 years ago.
Simon Thomas

#8 David McKinney

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 15:31

My guess is the sponsors of the race might not have regarded a road-equipped GP car in the same light as the other participants in the challenge

#9 Doug Nye

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 12:44

According to Ken Stewart (may 1983), it was offered for sale in 1938 by Ace Motors (23 Oldbury Place, High Street, Marylebone W1) through an advertisement in The Autocar for 1938, may 13th.

I am looking for a copy of this advertisement. Can somebody help ? Thank you (any other bits of knowledge on the car are most welcomed, too)




Posted Image


Posted Image

Both the above appear in the May 13, 1938, issue of 'The Autocar'

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 27 October 2011 - 12:57.


#10 ERault

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 21:54

Fantastic, thank you Doug !

The Fox & Nicholl ad is refering to #3002, the ex-Birkin 3-liter two-seater. As stated, it was used very sparingly at Brooklands in 1937 by E.W.H. Dobson (I reckon brother of Arthur and Austin ?). I have no more race entries before 1946 when Mathieson campaigned it in continental events.

By elimination, the Ace Motors advertised - soon to be Torin's - one should indeed be #3001. My initial interest was mainly sparked by the belgian connection associated with this car. Sadly the advertisement does not provide any details on this. The 1933 Belgian GP with Nuvolari story is obviously a product of imagination, as pointed out by Gigleux. On the other hand, a 3-liter Maserati was entered by Gouvion (local Lancia agent) for the 1937 belgian GP, and was prevented from starting by engine failure. Is it possible Gouvion had #3001 ? Richard Winby explained in C&S in 1983 that when rebuilding Torin's engine it showed signs of a previous cranckcase repair...I think the car would have been ok by the 1937 rulebook, since one or two Monza Alfas were still racing in GP events that year.

What do you think ?


#11 Simon Thomas

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 10:56

Fantastic, thank you Doug !

The Fox & Nicholl ad is refering to #3002, the ex-Birkin 3-liter two-seater. As stated, it was used very sparingly at Brooklands in 1937 by E.W.H. Dobson (I reckon brother of Arthur and Austin ?). I have no more race entries before 1946 when Mathieson campaigned it in continental events.

By elimination, the Ace Motors advertised - soon to be Torin's - one should indeed be #3001. My initial interest was mainly sparked by the belgian connection associated with this car. Sadly the advertisement does not provide any details on this. The 1933 Belgian GP with Nuvolari story is obviously a product of imagination, as pointed out by Gigleux. On the other hand, a 3-liter Maserati was entered by Gouvion (local Lancia agent) for the 1937 belgian GP, and was prevented from starting by engine failure. Is it possible Gouvion had #3001 ? Richard Winby explained in C&S in 1983 that when rebuilding Torin's engine it showed signs of a previous cranckcase repair...I think the car would have been ok by the 1937 rulebook, since one or two Monza Alfas were still racing in GP events that year.

What do you think ?


Who owns the car now if it still exists?
Simon Thomas

#12 JoBo

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 11:07

Who owns the car now if it still exists?
Simon Thomas


In Germany with Peter Kas for many years. Sold to to the Netherlands and now again with owner in Germany.

JoBo


#13 David McKinney

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 11:08

I believe the Torin car, if that's the one you mean, is owned by one of the Rettenmaier brothers in Germany

If on the other hand your query relates to 3002, that is in the Dutch National Motor Museum

#14 JoBo

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 13:25

I believe the Torin car, if that's the one you mean, is owned by one of the Rettenmaier brothers in Germany

If on the other hand your query relates to 3002, that is in the Dutch National Motor Museum

You are right, sorry for the confusion. So - correction:

the car in the Dutch Museum (ex-Peter Kaus) is the ex-Birkin-car from Tripolis (3002.. It was once owned by Cameron Millar who took its original body off the chassis and replicated a new coachwork. The original body of the ex-Birkin-car is now on a different car in the UK.

The other car (3001) is in Germany.
JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 27 November 2011 - 13:28.


#15 Simon Thomas

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 13:38

I believe the Torin car, if that's the one you mean, is owned by one of the Rettenmaier brothers in Germany

If on the other hand your query relates to 3002, that is in the Dutch National Motor Museum

David
Yes, the Torin car. Thank you for the details. Nice one to have in the garage. The Rettenmaier brothers seem to have quite a collection of pre war Maseratis. Are they aiming for a full set?
Simon Thomas

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 15:36

The Rettenmaier brothers seem to have quite a collection of pre war Maseratis. Are they aiming for a full set?

They seem to be - and not stopping with pre-war. Each has a 250F, and there's a 300S and a Birdcage in the family as well


#17 JoBo

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 18:00

They seem to be - and not stopping with pre-war. Each has a 250F, and there's a 300S and a Birdcage in the family as well


They currently have in their collection:

300S - #3051
300S - #3054
300S - #3057 (possibly sold)
200S - #2409 (sold this year to the UK)
8CM #3020
8C-3000 - #3001
8VRi - #4503
4CM - #1521
6CM - #1552
6C-34 - #3023
T26 - #2514
T61 - #2455
250F - #2508
4CLT - #1604

...and perhaps I missed this or that car with them.

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 27 November 2011 - 18:01.


#18 David McKinney

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 18:56

I'd forgotten they no longer had 250F 2520 :)

#19 Simon Thomas

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 20:21

I'd forgotten they no longer had 250F 2520 :)

David
I am glad that I asked, an impressive collection. Are the cars regularly exercised in the public gaze or hidden away? Has the Torin Maserati been seen recently?
Simon Thomas

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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 20:33

Most are exercised, though I don't recall the last time I saw the Torin 8C-3000

#21 JoBo

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 21:05

David
I am glad that I asked, an impressive collection. Are the cars regularly exercised in the public gaze or hidden away? Has the Torin Maserati been seen recently?
Simon Thomas

I saw the car displayed by Maserati Germany at the Nuerburgring in 2004.

JoBo


#22 JoBo

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 21:12

David
I am glad that I asked, an impressive collection. Are the cars regularly exercised in the public gaze or hidden away? Has the Torin Maserati been seen recently?
Simon Thomas

Simon,
the cars are exercised regulary - but not displayed for the public. The T26 was not seen since many years. The collections are seperated by the 2 brothers and both collect independently.

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 27 November 2011 - 21:12.


#23 CiroMenotti

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:43

The ex-Torin Maserati 8C 3001 was raced a Monaco in 2008 by Josef Otto Rettenmaier.

#24 JoBo

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 14:09

The ex-Torin Maserati 8C 3001 was raced a Monaco in 2008 by Josef Otto Rettenmaier.

Interestingly its frame has 2 chassis numbers stamped...

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 28 November 2011 - 14:10.


#25 Simon Thomas

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 10:50

The ex-Torin Maserati 8C 3001 was raced a Monaco in 2008 by Josef Otto Rettenmaier.


Has anyone a photo at the race of the car?
Simon Thomas