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#1 gruntguru

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 01:03

Virgin Atlantic and Swedish Biofuels will produce Jet aviation fuel using waste gases from steel plants.Cost is comparable to mineral jet fuel and potential is 15 Billion gallons per year.

LINK



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#2 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 01:21

No pictures of hot Hostesses no care.

Next week we are running a compressed straw experiment. We will compress powdered straw to 100,000 psi to form solid blocks then test for burn time and emissions etc. and see if it's a viable alternate to coal. I will post some pics.

#3 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 01:36

No pictures of hot Hostesses no care.

Next week we are running a compressed straw experiment. We will compress powdered straw to 100,000 psi to form solid blocks then test for burn time and emissions etc. and see if it's a viable alternate to coal. I will post some pics.

In the dim and distant past I was heavily involved in the design and development of a plant that produced domestic fireplace briquettes from straw.

Frankly it was largely a waste of time, talent and money. Good luck.

Edited by Greg Locock, 12 October 2011 - 01:38.


#4 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 03:17

In the dim and distant past I was heavily involved in the design and development of a plant that produced domestic fireplace briquettes from straw.

Frankly it was largely a waste of time, talent and money. Good luck.


Straw is a serious problem here and is burnt off causing real stress and problems by ignorant farmers who have been doing it for 5000 (?) years. The Government has tried many ways to resolve the issue including paying the farmers to gather it but the problem just continues. The smoke here for 2 separate weeks each year is not describable, like a bad fog - except it's not breathable. Ironically it's this week and I have been suffering the last few days, if I get a chance I'll take a picture this evening when it's the worst.

http://en.cnki.com.c...SCHJ704.008.htm

It's just a test at this stage, the company will have a CIP finished for a customer next week and it has to be tested anyway so the materials guy here wants to test his straw idea. I'm not sure what pressures you compressed the straw to but imagine not very high?

The plan is to see if it's viable and put it to the Gumbyment to direct some funds to the company, offer free land and zero interest rates and subsidy to build the factory - that's the business plan, the least important part is if it actually works or not ......

Oh sorry, did I say straw blocks? I of course meant "Biomass Blocks"  ;)

#5 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 03:56

It's just a test at this stage, the company will have a CIP finished for a customer next week and it has to be tested anyway so the materials guy here wants to test his straw idea. I'm not sure what pressures you compressed the straw to but imagine not very high?


We didn't measure the compression directly as we were using a piston in cylinder type of extruder, with a bloody big flywheel.

http://www.google.co...:429,r:10,s:140

would have been what we were aiming at in density, much less than that and they tend to 'burst' apart as they burn.

If the machine jammed we ended up with a lump of plastic and a blocked die, if it didn't break.



#6 bigleagueslider

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 05:50

Virgin Atlantic and Swedish Biofuels will produce Jet aviation fuel using waste gases from steel plants.Cost is comparable to mineral jet fuel and potential is 15 Billion gallons per year.

LINK


Total world commercial jet fuel (Jet A) production is only about four times that amount. Due to the basic economic laws of supply and demand, increasing the supply by 25% would drive the commodity price down significantly. More importantly, the commercial airline business is a very low margin, cost-sensitive endeavor. Even small price fluctuations in major operating expenses like jet fuel, can make the difference between an airline's annual profit or loss. In fact, jet fuel prices are so important that most airlines typically hedge their fuel costs by buying fuel commodity futures.

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#7 24gerrard

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 08:20

We didn't measure the compression directly as we were using a piston in cylinder type of extruder, with a bloody big flywheel.

http://www.google.co...:429,r:10,s:140

would have been what we were aiming at in density, much less than that and they tend to 'burst' apart as they burn.

If the machine jammed we ended up with a lump of plastic and a blocked die, if it didn't break.


Much better to use bales in a multi-pass boiler (I designed one for use on a pig farm, saved the farm £1,000 a Month) and generate electricity.
I did all this in the 1970's including running a tractor on powdered straw and building houses useing it.
I also planned a energy self sufficient farm here in Norfolk UK using straw as the prime fuel and electric farm equipment.
It included an electric vehicle distribution system for straw brickets to the local villages.
It was a German made compactor we used. No problems so long as the moisture content was kept low.
The straw for compacting was stored near the generator system and carefully checked.
It was all stopped by the University of East Anglia, greedy farmers on diesel subsidies, complacent agricultural equipment suppliers and manufacturers
but mostly the government grants to achieve a short stemmed straw to reduce the field burning and make combining easier.
China has a hell of a potential on this one, I would like to see how it is developed cheapy. :up:

#8 275 GTB-4

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 08:43

Total world commercial jet fuel (Jet A) production is only about four times that amount. Due to the basic economic laws of supply and demand, increasing the supply by 25% would drive the commodity price down significantly. More importantly, the commercial airline business is a very low margin, cost-sensitive endeavor. Even small price fluctuations in major operating expenses like jet fuel, can make the difference between an airline's annual profit or loss. In fact, jet fuel prices are so important that most airlines typically hedge their fuel costs by buying fuel commodity futures.

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Please please please...whatever you do Aviation industry....make sure your bio-soup will SUSTAIN FLIGHT!!

(Don't want any 'bigleaguegliders') :|

#9 gruntguru

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:03

Total world commercial jet fuel (Jet A) production is only about four times that amount. Due to the basic economic laws of supply and demand, increasing the supply by 25% would drive the commodity price down significantly. More importantly, the commercial airline business is a very low margin, cost-sensitive endeavor. Even small price fluctuations in major operating expenses like jet fuel, can make the difference between an airline's annual profit or loss. In fact, jet fuel prices are so important that most airlines typically hedge their fuel costs by buying fuel commodity futures.
slider

Diesel fuel is very similar and refineries can easily adjust the ratio of diesel and jet fuel. Diesel production is more than double that of jet fuel and demand is currently shifting from gasolene to diesel. On that basis it is difficult to see Branson's venture having much impact on price - particularly considering it is unlikely to reach more than a small fraction of the stated potential production for many years. In addition, the process is barely price-competitive at current jet fuel prices, so production would be wound down if jet fuel prices were to fall.

In the meantime, demand for fossil fuels will continue to outstrip supply - the long term price trend is up and any new sources for liquid fuels will be welcome.

#10 cheapracer

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 12:21

This is one reason the straw burning has to stop as I mentioned, this is 5.30 in the afternoon and this is a light day as the week of burning has almost finished..

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#11 Tony Matthews

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 16:46

Blimey! Straw-burning used to be popular in the UK, and although I never saw as much smoke as that, it could be troublesome. Plus the millions of burnt straw particles windmilling down onto people's washing lines...

#12 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 18:42

Much better to use bales in a multi-pass boiler

Agreed if the complex handling and plant size can be managed

#13 Grumbles

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 20:25

Please please please...whatever you do Aviation industry....make sure your bio-soup will SUSTAIN FLIGHT!!

(Don't want any 'bigleaguegliders') :|


I don't know what you're worried about. They've never left anyone up there yet...




#14 mariner

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 21:17

Cheapracer, oriented straw board (OSB) is a big product in Europe and North America, it is even used as the centre prtion of structural house beams with plywood on top/bottom for the stresses.

It sems to be used in China too

http://www.astech.ab...erta.innovates/

Is there so much straw that it is still burned or is it straw that can't be used for OSB?

Just curious

#15 Tony Matthews

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 23:12

Cheapracer, oriented straw board (OSB)

That's OSSB, mariner, OSB is Oriented Strand Board, and made of large wood shavings. I use it quite a lot, but as yet I've not come across OSSB!

#16 cheapracer

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 01:08

That's OSSB, mariner, OSB is Oriented Strand Board, and made of large wood shavings. I use it quite a lot, but as yet I've not come across OSSB!


Well if I was involved it would be OSSSB because everything I do is bigger and better.

They have straw board here but I don't see it used much anywhere, concrete and rendered bricks are the mainstay here for any building/house.


#17 275 GTB-4

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 07:00

I don't know what you're worried about. They've never left anyone up there yet...


LOL but what about those Irish pilots who kept losing engines and had to reduce airspeed...then finally said in desperation....christ, at this rate we'll never get there!! :)

#18 cheapracer

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 08:25

LOL but what about those Irish pilots who kept losing engines and had to reduce airspeed...then finally said in desperation....christ, at this rate we'll never get there!! :)


It's ok, it was all downhill from there.

#19 mariner

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 16:19

Tony , thanks for the distinction between OSB and OSSB. As the video explains it is the OSSB that is being produced in China for houses.

Now I think about it the structural beams of OSSB and ply that I have seen were in the USA.

BTW I am sure Canuck knows more but they have had some interesting buliding tweaks in Canada. At one stage they were doing house foundations/basements in Plywood ( well treated).

Sounds funny but it allowed construction into the winter as no mortar to fail in frost; plus the slightly flexible ply could absorb frost heave better than concrete blocks.

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#20 Bob Riebe

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 21:59

That's OSSB, mariner, OSB is Oriented Strand Board, and made of large wood shavings. I use it quite a lot, but as yet I've not come across OSSB!

OSB, there it another word that has it in which better describes it.

I was at the "Green Energy" building at our state fair and they had a supposedly energy efficient building skeleton to show how to build a "green" building.

It had OSB in in and I approached the question answer man and asked "This is a green building?"
He said yes, so I said there is not one damn thing green about OSB. If you get it wet it is crap, and it burns extremely hot when it catches fire.

He smiled and said "I know that but I did not put up the display."

We spoke about "green" buildings and he agreed with me that old style plaster walls, lathes and separate wall and roof boards makes a house that lasts longer and is far stronger than today's house of cards put up, but people do not want to pay for it.

I spoke to several people in the building which had various "green" concerns represented, and when I would hit them with a difficult question I got " I am just here to point out how this product works. I am not an engineer or expert in the field."

There is another term for such marketing, usually called-- street hustling.
-------------------------

In the U.S. straw bales, the small ones sell for from two to five dollars each. Why do they burn straw over there?

#21 saudoso

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 03:41

OT but not that much, vacationing around LA I spent the day at San Diego yesyerday. Got lucky enought to see from the bay a couple of F-18s taking off and flying formation. Boy those things are *LOUD*. 3 carriers on the harbor. I did feel like a kid and his Revell kits.

#22 Tony Matthews

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 08:03

He said yes, so I said there is not one damn thing green about OSB. If you get it wet it is crap, and it burns extremely hot when it catches fire.

I don't suppose it's any greener than other man-made boards, Bob, as it contains resin (although not much) and requires energy to produce it, but OSB3 is water resistant, and we had three 8x4s of regular, 15mm OSB outside in all weathers for years, occasionally using them to stand mixers on, mound sand on, etc. No problemo, just not cosmetically appealing. As to burning, surely any timber product is going to produce heat, I don't know if OSB is worse. I try to waste as little as possible!

OSB is used as the web in engineered joists, I'm sure OSSB is as good if not better if the board is as good as they say. I wonder if it's lighter, size for size, or just condensed more and so weighing about the same.

#23 Magoo

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 19:59

I use OSB (oriented strand board I mean) for lots of stuff. IMO it's pretty much the equal of plywood for most applications but caution: Like plywood, it comes in a number of grades. Cheapie waferboard resembles OSB but does not have its strength or water resistance. You've got to select the right stuff for the job. The key is the inked stamp on every sheet of material. You (or your trusted lumberman) need to know how to read it. An OSB board without a stamp is like a bolt without a grade marking -- useless to serious people. There are are actually different grades for flooring, roofing, wall sheathing, etc, as well as some more universal grades, which is how people get tripped up sometimes.

Another secret of OSB: the blue, red, or yellow "paint" on the edge of the panel has a purpose -- it's a moisture sealant. When you cut off that portion you need to reseal the edge or you've lost the protection and it can take in water and possibly swell. Bonus: Modern building grade OSB is absolutely termite-proof thanks to borite in the binder.

One nice thing about OSB -- it's usually cleaner with no knots and fewer flaws than the lower plywood grades, which makes it nice to work with. But you still need gloves -- nothing like getting a strand oriented up the heel of your hand. OSB is now pretty much all I use for interior construction projects anymore - benches, shelving, crates, fixtures, etc. Here is a very nice workbench top: 3/4 OSB with a piece of 3/16" Masonite (tempered hardboard) glued on top to make a nice, smooth work surface. When the masonite gets too gouged up you just peel it off and glue on a new piece. I love wood workbenches. Metal scratches metal. Wood doesn't scratch metal.

Of course, MDF (medium density fiberboard -- the beige stuff that looks like compressed and epoxied sawdust, no visible wood fibers) is extremely clean, smooth, and pleasant to work with, but is completely different stuff and not for structural use. Super great for closeouts, speaker enclosures, etc.





#24 bigleagueslider

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 02:52

Diesel fuel is very similar and refineries can easily adjust the ratio of diesel and jet fuel. Diesel production is more than double that of jet fuel and demand is currently shifting from gasolene to diesel. On that basis it is difficult to see Branson's venture having much impact on price - particularly considering it is unlikely to reach more than a small fraction of the stated potential production for many years. In addition, the process is barely price-competitive at current jet fuel prices, so production would be wound down if jet fuel prices were to fall.

In the meantime, demand for fossil fuels will continue to outstrip supply - the long term price trend is up and any new sources for liquid fuels will be welcome.


gruntguru,

The crude distillation fractions for diesel and Jet A are similar but they are not the same end product. Modern oil refineries are highly specialized systems and they cannot easily change the ratio they produce of each specific product from the crude stocks. Regardless of the popular myth that oil refiners make massive profits, the reality is that the oil refining business is a commodity enterprise that has very small profit margins. So in order to remain profitable, the refinery has to optimize their processing to produce the best combination of yields for each end product based on what the local market demands. In order to change their process, they would have to shut down the plant and that would cost them lots of lost production. So they do this as little as possible.

Jet A is currently made from crude stocks because that is the most economical method. Jet A can currently be made from natural gas stocks (GTL) or from coal stocks (CTL) much more economically than from bio stocks. And the amount of economically recoverable world reserves of natural gas and coal are still growing each year.

As for the market demand of coal, gas or oil outstripping supply, this is also a fallacy. Due to the inherent natural balance between supply and demand forces in a free market economy, supply will always adjust to meet demand/price, and demand will always respond based on supply/cost. The immediate supply/demand imbalance of any commodity (including transportation fuels) may briefly cause temporary price swings, but they quickly sort themselves out.

As for the long term price trend for transportation fuels going upward, this is also not true. Adjusted for inflation, the peak US retail price for gasoline was almost 30 years ago (1981).

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Regards,
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#25 gruntguru

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 04:41

As for the market demand of coal, gas or oil outstripping supply, this is also a fallacy. Due to the inherent natural balance between supply and demand forces in a free market economy, supply will always adjust to meet demand/price, and demand will always respond based on supply/cost. The immediate supply/demand imbalance of any commodity (including transportation fuels) may briefly cause temporary price swings, but they quickly sort themselves out.

There's an old saying about getting blood out of a stone. In the very near future crude oil supply will be unable to meet demand. The resulting price increase will NOT increase crude production significantly. Three things will happen:
1. Demand will reduce due to higher prices.
2. Marginal crude deposits will become viable at the higher price and will be drilled. This will not happen overnight.
3. Various alternatives to crude will become increasingly viable: biofuels, gas to liquid, coal to liquid, oil sands and shale oil (unfortunately). This also will not happen overnight.

As for the long term price trend for transportation fuels going upward, this is also not true. Adjusted for inflation, the peak US retail price for gasoline was almost 30 years ago (1981).

Posted Image

Your graph conveniently omits the last seven years including the recent peak at just under $4 and current prices around $3.50. In spite of that, crude oil is not yet at a pinch point although "peak oil" is certainly upon us - give or take a few years. We are merely waiting for demand to start persistently bumping up against supply, which will probably not happen for several years now due to economic decline and consequent fall in demand.

#26 mariner

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 08:21

Whether "peak oil" is now upon us is difficult to tell but it is true that the western oil majors ( Exxon, Shell, ENI etc.) have not raised output this year despite higher prices so supply elasticity does seem limited at present.

Longer term China has just passed Japan to be number 2 in world car fleet size.The USA is clearly number one at 240M or so cars and IIRC China is nealry 80M. The point being that if China acheived a car to population ratio like the USA or Oz etc. it would have one billion cars or four times the US level. What that would do to the oil demand versus supply balance is sobering to say the least.

Personally I don't think China ( or any othe Asian country) will get to US car ownership levels because much more of their population will live in mega-cities where cars won't make sense. However any discussions about EV's making sense have to be considered in terms of finding enough TOTAL energy to propel maybe another billion cars on the planet. EV's may succeed simply because they multiply the range of available power sources better than say hydrogen

#27 24gerrard

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:10

Personally I don't think China ( or any othe Asian country) will get to US car ownership levels because much more of their population will live in mega-cities where cars won't make sense. However any discussions about EV's making sense have to be considered in terms of finding enough TOTAL energy to propel maybe another billion cars on the planet. EV's may succeed simply because they multiply the range of available power sources better than say hydrogen



:up: :up: :up:

#28 cheapracer

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 13:15

Longer term China has just passed Japan to be number 2 in world car fleet size.The USA is clearly number one at 240M or so cars and IIRC China is nealry 80M.


China is number one for new car sales now I think but there isn't many used cars relative.

Personally I don't think China ( or any othe Asian country) will get to US car ownership levels because much more of their population will live in mega-cities where cars won't make sense.


So car ownership makes sense in London, New York, LA etc etc .....? You've been here, China is as spread out as any other country and more so than most of Europe.

Anyway, everyone here wants to own a car just like a Westerner but the major trouble here is parking spots, that's the limiting factor.






#29 Vanishing Point

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 13:56

gruntguru,

The crude distillation fractions for diesel and Jet A are similar but they are not the same end product. Modern oil refineries are highly specialized systems and they cannot easily change the ratio they produce of each specific product from the crude stocks. Regardless of the popular myth that oil refiners make massive profits, the reality is that the oil refining business is a commodity enterprise that has very small profit margins. So in order to remain profitable, the refinery has to optimize their processing to produce the best combination of yields for each end product based on what the local market demands. In order to change their process, they would have to shut down the plant and that would cost them lots of lost production. So they do this as little as possible.

Jet A is currently made from crude stocks because that is the most economical method. Jet A can currently be made from natural gas stocks (GTL) or from coal stocks (CTL) much more economically than from bio stocks. And the amount of economically recoverable world reserves of natural gas and coal are still growing each year.

As for the market demand of coal, gas or oil outstripping supply, this is also a fallacy. Due to the inherent natural balance between supply and demand forces in a free market economy, supply will always adjust to meet demand/price, and demand will always respond based on supply/cost. The immediate supply/demand imbalance of any commodity (including transportation fuels) may briefly cause temporary price swings, but they quickly sort themselves out.

As for the long term price trend for transportation fuels going upward, this is also not true. Adjusted for inflation, the peak US retail price for gasoline was almost 30 years ago (1981).

Posted Image

Regards,
slider



There's no real difference in actual oil reserve capacity now than there was in the 1950's and 1960's.The main oil reserves are still in the places where they've always been in the Middle East.The turning point,which brought us to where we are now,came in 1973 and is simply the result of the valves,which control the rate of how much is allowed onto the market,being turned down by OPEC,for political and economic reasons,to produce an artificially inflated price for,what should still be,a cheap fuel source.

To add to those reserves there's plenty of other places where oil reserves were found to exist and which have been exploited since.However we've then got the issue of places like Britain with self sufficiency in oil,gas,and coal deciding to use it's oil and gas reserves as a cash cow,by selling it on the world market,and effectively turned,what should have been,a source of cheap locally produced fuel,into worthless piles of money instead which it then decided to throw away by investing in foreign banks.To add insult to injury it then decided to price the country's oil at OPEC world market prices to itself and then tax it,especially road fuel supplies,to the point where it's now almost not economically viable to bother with using it at £6 per gallon.In addition to which it also removed the option of synthetic coal to oil and gas by shutting down coal production capacity.It's not surprising that the Brit government is so keen to use the excuse of the so called global warming hypothesis garbage to justify that type of economic treason.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 15 October 2011 - 14:05.


#30 Vanishing Point

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 14:14

There's an old saying about getting blood out of a stone. In the very near future crude oil supply will be unable to meet demand. The resulting price increase will NOT increase crude production significantly. Three things will happen:
1. Demand will reduce due to higher prices.
2. Marginal crude deposits will become viable at the higher price and will be drilled. This will not happen overnight.
3. Various alternatives to crude will become increasingly viable: biofuels, gas to liquid, coal to liquid, oil sands and shale oil (unfortunately). This also will not happen overnight.


Your graph conveniently omits the last seven years including the recent peak at just under $4 and current prices around $3.50. In spite of that, crude oil is not yet at a pinch point although "peak oil" is certainly upon us - give or take a few years. We are merely waiting for demand to start persistently bumping up against supply, which will probably not happen for several years now due to economic decline and consequent fall in demand.


I think you've missed the point that current supply/demand figures are based on the fact that supply is artificially limited by how much OPEC allows onto the market not by how much of the stuff is actually sitting beneath Saudi,Iraq etc etc.


#31 mariner

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:37

"Spare capacity" in oil output relies on assuming several things

Firstly, geo political stabilty in all major fields- that has not existed for years - Iran - Iraq war, Iraq invasion ( still way below potentail, Venezulean politics ( Chavez can't invest in society and oil flelds together etc. etc).

Secondly the majors role may be much reduced but they are the only ones with the mega project ablity ( e.g Sakhalin fields) - if the host govt's aren't 100% trustworthy the old model of big local reserves plus big oil capital raising/project skills is absent so reserves stay undeveloped.

OPEC is now less than half the global oil output and only Saudi has a lot of swing capacity so growing oil output to match Asia growth is getting very tough.The good old days of 6% yr ouput growth and low prices that the majors delivered until 1971 may be gone.

#32 carlt

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Posted 15 October 2011 - 17:31

There's no real difference in actual oil reserve capacity now than there was in the 1950's and 1960's.The main oil reserves are still in the places where they've always been in the Middle East.The turning point,which brought us to where we are now,came in 1973 and is simply the result of the valves,which control the rate of how much is allowed onto the market,being turned down by OPEC,for political and economic reasons,to produce an artificially inflated price for,what should still be,a cheap fuel source.

To add to those reserves there's plenty of other places where oil reserves were found to exist and which have been exploited since.However we've then got the issue of places like Britain with self sufficiency in oil,gas,and coal deciding to use it's oil and gas reserves as a cash cow,by selling it on the world market,and effectively turned,what should have been,a source of cheap locally produced fuel,into worthless piles of money instead which it then decided to throw away by investing in foreign banks.To add insult to injury it then decided to price the country's oil at OPEC world market prices to itself and then tax it,especially road fuel supplies,to the point where it's now almost not economically viable to bother with using it at £6 per gallon.In addition to which it also removed the option of synthetic coal to oil and gas by shutting down coal production capacity.It's not surprising that the Brit government is so keen to use the excuse of the so called global warming hypothesis garbage to justify that type of economic treason.


I would hate to be in a bar with you and 24gerry :well: :stoned:



#33 gruntguru

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:40

There's no real difference in actual oil reserve capacity now than there was in the 1950's and 1960's.The main oil reserves are still in the places where they've always been in the Middle East.The turning point,which brought us to where we are now,came in 1973 and is simply the result of the valves,which control the rate of how much is allowed onto the market,being turned down by OPEC,for political and economic reasons,to produce an artificially inflated price for,what should still be,a cheap fuel source.

Posted Image



#34 cheapracer

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 13:06

It's very simple, they obviously got too busy to go look for it, duh :lol:


...

Anyway, bad news is it's not going to slow down soon as BYD the worlds biggest battery manufacturer and a producer of cars has said bugger it to hybrid cars.

All of the Chinese car industry (and others) were waiting to see their results and/or depending on them for component supply for their own hybrids but nope, all their market testing has clearly indicated no one wants them (in reasonable amounts) so they are going ahead with new cars with new petrol engines.

Edited by cheapracer, 16 October 2011 - 13:11.


#35 24gerrard

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 13:25

It's very simple, they obviously got too busy to go look for it, duh :lol:


...

Anyway, bad news is it's not going to slow down soon as BYD the worlds biggest battery manufacturer and a producer of cars has said bugger it to hybrid cars.

All of the Chinese car industry (and others) were waiting to see their results and/or depending on them for component supply for their own hybrids but nope, all their market testing has clearly indicated no one wants them (in reasonable amounts) so they are going ahead with new cars with new petrol engines.


I thought China was heading for economic collapse shortly after capitalism dies with the world banks.
Obviously news takes longer to reach Asia.

#36 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 13:31

Posted Image



I think that actually confirms my case that there's a lot more oil in the ground than the amount which the suppliers allow to be pumped onto the market.The whole raison de etre of OPEC is based on that fact and would actually be an illegal trading cartel,if prices were artificially driven up in such a way,in most other western types of industry.However the actual way that countries like Saudi Arabia view domestic oil pricing and taxation for it's home market seems far 'different' to that of Britain's which became self sufficient in oil and gas after the North Sea discoveries.

As I've said the policy of the British government in regards to safeguarding that self sufficiency and supplying the home market with our own cheap oil and gas,at cost price not world OPEC set prices, ( instead of which it just exported most of the stuff for worthless money,which the banks then threw away in dodgy foreign investments, turning what should have been an oil rich economy into a debt ridden one instead,and sold what was left on the home market at the same price as what we'd have paid OPEC for it,and to add insult to injury then added a load of tax on road fuel as well for good measure),which has been a bigger rip off,of an even greater scale,than anything which OPEC could have dreamed of.Suggest you check out the figures for North Sea oil depletion rates v Saudi Arabian ones which shows the true extend of the theft of Britain's resources by it's own government and the foreign banks.

The whole issue surrounding oil is just been that of a history of idiots milking a product for more than it's worth,just because it's used a lot,and then another load of idiots trying to make the case that if it's not running out it'll turn the planet into another Venus anyway.


https://www.cia.gov/...r/2178rank.html

Edited by Vanishing Point, 16 October 2011 - 13:39.


#37 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 13:44

It's very simple, they obviously got too busy to go look for it, duh :lol:


...

it's not going to slow down soon as BYD the worlds biggest battery manufacturer and a producer of cars has said bugger it to hybrid cars.

All of the Chinese car industry (and others) were waiting to see their results and/or depending on them for component supply for their own hybrids but nope, all their market testing has clearly indicated no one wants them (in reasonable amounts) so they are going ahead with new cars with new petrol engines.


Hopefully Holden will be taking my advice to offer forced induction on it's big V8's as standard at no extra cost. :clap:


#38 gruntguru

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 00:43

I think that actually confirms my case that there's a lot more oil in the ground than the amount which the suppliers allow to be pumped onto the market.

How so?

#39 24gerrard

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:09

How so?


I am not sure he is on the same planet GG, perhaps he is a banker clutching at straws?

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#40 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 15:47

How so?



Simply by comparing the peak 'discovery' amounts with the peak production amounts according to that comparison.However the comparison doesn't seem like a realistic account of the actual reserves sitting in the ground such as in the figures provided by the CIA.If the figures,concerning discovery amounts and production amounts,as provided in the graph, were used as an accurate measure of the actual level of supply available in the ground and demand,then it's obvious that demand would be exceeding reserves and availablity,in which case,at worst, it just wouldn't be available to buy at any price or,at best,governments would be rationing it's use,assuming they could even get any,not using the stuff as a cash/tax cow like OPEC are doing and the British government are doing especially with road fuel,with no shortages at the pumps at all.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 17 October 2011 - 15:55.


#41 J. Edlund

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Posted 18 October 2011 - 19:47

Virgin Atlantic and Swedish Biofuels will produce Jet aviation fuel using waste gases from steel plants.Cost is comparable to mineral jet fuel and potential is 15 Billion gallons per year.

LINK


This fuel have been developed with the help of funding from DARPA, and from the beginning it was mainly the US Airforce that were interrested after the Swedish Energy Agency had failed to regonize its potential. This also made the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration interrested of the fuel. So far, the fuel have been shown to pass the JP-8 standard. They plan to begin test flight with the new fuel in Saab Gripen fighters, although I'm not sure how far this have progressed.

#42 24gerrard

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 12:22

Simply by comparing the peak 'discovery' amounts with the peak production amounts according to that comparison.However the comparison doesn't seem like a realistic account of the actual reserves sitting in the ground such as in the figures provided by the CIA.If the figures,concerning discovery amounts and production amounts,as provided in the graph, were used as an accurate measure of the actual level of supply available in the ground and demand,then it's obvious that demand would be exceeding reserves and availablity,in which case,at worst, it just wouldn't be available to buy at any price or,at best,governments would be rationing it's use,assuming they could even get any,not using the stuff as a cash/tax cow like OPEC are doing and the British government are doing especially with road fuel,with no shortages at the pumps at all.


Damn it, now I know where the man that reads my meter comes from, hes a CIA operative whatever that is. :lol:

#43 gruntguru

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Posted 19 October 2011 - 23:09

Simply by comparing the peak 'discovery' amounts with the peak production amounts according to that comparison.

So you looked at the area under the red (discoveries) line and subtracted the area under the blue (consumption) line and observed that we have only used about half. Very good. Now - continue the blue line to the right. Make it horizontal if you like - no increase in consumption!!! How long before the other half gets used up? Looks like about 30 years to me.

Posted Image



#44 Vanishing Point

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 01:24

So you looked at the area under the red (discoveries) line and subtracted the area under the blue (consumption) line and observed that we have only used about half. Very good. Now - continue the blue line to the right. Make it horizontal if you like - no increase in consumption!!! How long before the other half gets used up? Looks like about 30 years to me.

Posted Image


No I was just using the example of the differences in the peaks to show that even that graph agrees with my statements concerning the fact that production levels lag behind and aren't the same thing as reserves and history shows that production is always artificially held back to keep prices up just as OPEC have been doing since the 1970's.However those discovery figures don't seem to be a realistic account of actual reserves either.

Just simple addition of this lot seems to show that there's more than 30 years worth left in the ground.However if it's all supposed to be running out within 30 years then the aviation industry won't get far on the amount of synthetic kerosene that it can make from steel plant emmissions and the Global Warming believers don't need to worry anyway even if we do burn what's left because it's obviously a lot less than what we've burnt so far.

https://www.cia.gov/...r/2178rank.html

Edited by Vanishing Point, 20 October 2011 - 01:30.


#45 Engineguy

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 03:09

Reduced discoveries seems a non-issue to me. How many billion$ of your company's money would you allocate THIS YEAR to search for oil you're not going to need for 30-40 years? Since all oil company executives are rich [sarc] evil greedy irresponsible bastards stuffing their pockets with obscene undeserved unearned excessive windfall blah blah blah [/sarc] profits, not many.

#46 bigleagueslider

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 05:02

Vanishing Point,

Your graphs of crude oil "discoveries" and "consumption" is incomplete and misleading. What we need to consider are the world's "economically recoverable" reserves of oil, gas and coal, since they all can be made into aviation fuels such as Jet A or JP8. And the economically recoverable world reserves of oil, gas and coal have increased for the past decade. Due to advanced drilling techniques, gas production and reserves will continue to grow rapidly.

http://205.254.135.2...t.cfm?t=ptb0403

#47 gruntguru

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 06:18

He he, not his graph. He will be pissed at you for blaming him. :p
Converting coal into liquid fuels is ineffecient and CO2 intensive. Converting natural gas into liquid fuels is inefficient and wasteful.

#48 24gerrard

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 09:48

He he, not his graph. He will be pissed at you for blaming him. :p
Converting coal into liquid fuels is ineffecient and CO2 intensive. Converting natural gas into liquid fuels is inefficient and wasteful.


Ethanol. hic :stoned:

#49 Vanishing Point

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 18:45

Vanishing Point,

Your graphs of crude oil "discoveries" and "consumption" is incomplete and misleading. What we need to consider are the world's "economically recoverable" reserves of oil, gas and coal, since they all can be made into aviation fuels such as Jet A or JP8. And the economically recoverable world reserves of oil, gas and coal have increased for the past decade. Due to advanced drilling techniques, gas production and reserves will continue to grow rapidly.

http://205.254.135.2...t.cfm?t=ptb0403


:eek:

It was actually me who said that 'Gg's graph' wasn't an accurate account of the 'actual' amounts/reserves of oil that are still left in the ground.That's why I posted the figures which were puplished by the CIA.They seem to confirm what everyone who still likes 'real' cars already knew.There's plenty of the stuff in the ground and always has been and the only reason why it's not as cheap now as it was in the US during the 1960's is because the Middle East oil producers have been holding back the amounts pumped out of the ground,and because of unviable levels of taxation being put on the refined products (especially road fuel),by governments in places like Britain.Where the garbage global warming issue is also now being used as a convenient excuse for yet more extortionate levels of taxation on the already artificially inflated price of the product.




#50 Vanishing Point

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 18:54

evil greedy irresponsible bastards stuffing their pockets with obscene undeserved unearned excessive windfall.


That is a good description of OPEC and governments like the British one.In OPEC's case because of the way in which it rigs the world price by controlling oil production levels and in the British governments case,by allowing an economy,which was self sufficient in coal,oil,and gas,to now become a net importer,by flogging off most of it's reserves on the export market,then adding insult to injury by pricing what's left for the home market at world market rates with extortionate taxes on top.