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Officially IndyCar for 2012


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#1601 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:23

The question that has bothered me for years is: in what order do you relegate the cars back 10 spots? It seems like the only consistent way to do it is to start from the back of the grid and work your way forward, otherwise you have a ridiculous situation where if the first 10 cars all get a penalty, they start from the same position as if they had no penalty.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 13 April 2012 - 03:32.


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#1602 Jim Thurman

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:48

You folks are making this much more difficult than it is...

Qualifying will be held and each car using a Chevrolet engine will be moved back 10 places from where they qualified. Thus if one qualifies 5th they start 15th, 8th becomes 18th, etc.

#1603 evo

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:00

so who's left without penalty?

#1604 Red17

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:19

so who's left without penalty?

In theory 2 thirds of the field. Hondas and Judd.

#1605 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:28

Except Bourdais. His Lotus needed to be changed too.

#1606 Red17

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:12

Except Bourdais. His Lotus needed to be changed too.

I think the article linked above also mentioned a Honda being changed.

But I get Ross's idea. There will be a couple drivers that simply cannot drop the whole 10 places. Some system will have to be found as to who gets the «back end». Its a bit like when HRT (or was it Marrusia?) also got a penalty that was essentially non pratical last year.

Edited by Red17, 13 April 2012 - 10:20.


#1607 jonpollak

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:19

Thanks for the much needed clarity Jim.

A few friends went to the Hilton last night and txt'ed me on how they really enjoyed the RRDC evening honouring Jim Hall

Jp

#1608 Bloggsworth

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:47

It's Indycar, starting position is frequently irrelevant - Timing and luck with pit-stops and yellows are the controlling factors.

#1609 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:57

I think the article linked above also mentioned a Honda being changed.

But I get Ross's idea. There will be a couple drivers that simply cannot drop the whole 10 places. Some system will have to be found as to who gets the «back end». Its a bit like when HRT (or was it Marrusia?) also got a penalty that was essentially non pratical last year.


This year, HRT I believe got a grid penalty. It meant nothing, as the car was starting last, but the penalty was official. You'd move the cars as far back as you could under the 10 spot rules. You qualify 18th, but with only 26 cars, the you will start 26th.

#1610 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:13

You folks are making this much more difficult than it is...

Qualifying will be held and each car using a Chevrolet engine will be moved back 10 places from where they qualified. Thus if one qualifies 5th they start 15th, 8th becomes 18th, etc.


+10 only works if it's one or two cars. But this weekend we're going to give exactly half the grid 10 place penalties.

It will come down to whether the rule book says 10+ on your qualifying result or you start 10 places from your qualifying result. The first puts Helio P6 at Barber, the other P11. For Helio to have started 11th at Barber he'd have to have been behind cars that qualified 15 and lower.

#1611 billm99uk

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:46

You folks are making this much more difficult than it is...

Qualifying will be held and each car using a Chevrolet engine will be moved back 10 places from where they qualified. Thus if one qualifies 5th they start 15th, 8th becomes 18th, etc.


That would leave gaps on the grid, no? Does IndyCar allow that?

#1612 Red17

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:51

That would leave gaps on the grid, no? Does IndyCar allow that?

Er...
Most series move non penalized cars up the grid. So those cars are actually making up places. The only occasion where the gap is left is because of inability for the car to make to the grid on time. Or the famed US GP with 6 cars.

#1613 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:52

That would leave gaps on the grid, no? Does IndyCar allow that?


^^^ Er... what he said.

No. It would move the other cars up. You're in 13th, and 6 cars in front get sent behind, that moves you up to 8th. Not that the starts are side by side for every row anyway, as the top 8-10 really only lineup as such, the rest starting single file, but if the pole car was moved back, the 2nd place qualifier would take the pole spot. No empty rows or spots like what was said above.

Edited by HaydenFan, 13 April 2012 - 12:53.


#1614 Red17

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:57

^^^ Er... what he said.

No. It would move the other cars up. You're in 13th, and 6 cars in front get sent behind, that moves you up to 8th. Not that the starts are side by side for every row anyway, as the top 8-10 really only lineup as such, the rest starting single file, but if the pole car was moved back, the 2nd place qualifier would take the pole spot. No empty rows or spots like what was said above.

Doh... yeah, and I forgot this is Indycar=Rolling Start.
So in a rolling start, even with stalled cars waiting in pitlane there is no gap at all.

#1615 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 13:05

But, do you move cars up to fill the gaps including cars that now have lower positions because of penalties, or do you fix the penalised drivers in their slot and potentially move cars behind them with unrestricted positions ahead of them to fill the gaps?

#1616 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 13:25

But, do you move cars up to fill the gaps including cars that now have lower positions because of penalties, or do you fix the penalised drivers in their slot and potentially move cars behind them with unrestricted positions ahead of them to fill the gaps?


You'd go with the later. Say the first 6 cars are Chevrolets. They move back from their penalty, and the cars from 7th to 12th would fill their spots. Not ideal to have the 7th place car start from pole, but rules are rules.

Looking at Barber's qualifying again, bold are Chevy powered drivers:

1. Helio Castroneves
2. James Hinchcliffe
3. Scott Dixon
4. Mike Conway
5. J.R. Hildebrand
6. Tony Kanaan
7. E.J. Viso
8. Graham Rahal
9. Will Power
10. Simon Pagenaud
11. Ryan Hunter-Reay
12. Ryan Briscoe
13. Marco Andretti
14. Rubens Barrichello
15. Josef Newgarden
16. Takuma Sato
17. Sebastien Bourdais
18. Dario Franchitti
19. Justin Wilson
20. James Jakes
21. Simona de Silvestro
22. Charlie Kimball
23. Alex Tagliani
24. Ed Carpenter
25. Katherine Legge
26. Oriol Servia

After the penalty, you'd have the grid as such.

1 Scott Dixon
2 Mike Conway
3 Grahan Rahal
4 Simon Pagenaud
5 Josef Newgarden
6 Takum Sato
7 Sebastien Bourdais
8 Dario Franchitti
9 Justin Wilson
10 James Jakes
11 Helio Castroneves
12 James Hinchcliffe
13 Simon de Silvestro
14 Charlie Kimball
15 JR Hildebrand
16 Tony Kanaan
17 EJ Viso
18 Alex Tagliani
19 Will Power
20 Katherine Lege
21 Ryan Hunter-Reay
22 Ryan Briscow
23 Marco Andretti
24 Rubens Barichello
25 Oriol Servia
26 Ed Carpenter


#1617 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 13:29

See I don't like that because there's no way in hell Newgarden and everyone behind him deserve to start ahead of the guy who qualified 11th with a penalty.

With this many car's getting penalised there's no way for them all to have +10. That math doesn't work when you have a grid. In this case Carpenter only gets docked 2. In my system most people get docked 10 except for Castroneves, Hinchcliffe, and Hildebrand beause they had so many other cars behind them getting penalised that it neutralised their advantage.



#1618 stewie

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 14:00

It's a shame that a Chevy based problem with the engines has resulted in the teams being penalized but there we go. I expect it'll make for an interesting race!

#1619 piercey

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 14:20

Except Bourdais. His Lotus needed to be changed too.


And you can now add Servia to that list. 13 cars with 10 grid position penalties heading into tomorrow...

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#1620 anbeck

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 14:50

Maybe some Hondas will also get problems. That way all the penalties will cancel out each other! :up:

#1621 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 15:08

That's actually half the grid. What the other teams should do it change their engines too. The entire grid would get a free engine change as the penalties would apply to the whole grid and completely cancel each other out.

#1622 Risil

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 15:09

No chance. Honda will want a win in front of all the sponsors at Long Beach. It's a big prestige event. And it's a "home race" for HPD.

Edited by Risil, 13 April 2012 - 15:10.


#1623 Jim Thurman

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 16:15

See I don't like that because there's no way in hell Newgarden and everyone behind him deserve to start ahead of the guy who qualified 11th with a penalty.

With this many car's getting penalised there's no way for them all to have +10. That math doesn't work when you have a grid. In this case Carpenter only gets docked 2. In my system most people get docked 10 except for Castroneves, Hinchcliffe, and Hildebrand beause they had so many other cars behind them getting penalised that it neutralised their advantage.

Again, you're overthinking this :) I'm just the messenger, I don't make the rules. It is exactly as HaydenFan posted. If you don't believe it, just wait and see  ;) As posted, it's like last year in F1 where backmarker teams got a "5 grid spot penalty". On SPEED, Matchett and Hobbs joked "Where do they start then?" Just last... So, if someone with a Chevy engine qualifies 18th for the LBGP, they simply start last. They are moved back 10 spots...or as many as possible. That's how racing penalty math works.

You want really bizarre, in USAC if a car scratches from a race...the car in the row directly behind moves up (so, if a driver starting 4th scratches, the driver in 6th moves into the spot, while 5th stays 5th...now that one really blows).

#1624 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 16:20

If tomorrow afternoon Power is on pole with Chevy's 1-11 and Hondas/Lotus 12-21; does Power start 11th and 12-21 fill the top 10, or does Power start first because as the 11th qualifier with no other cars ahead of him (2-10 being penalised Chevys)?

#1625 MightyMoose

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 16:29

I have a recollection that a F1 race had multiple penalties after qualifying, and the drivers were moved back from the grid position based upon Q order.

So Driver A Q3 went to Q8, but when Driver B Q5 which became Q4 for the penalty to A, dropped to Q9, Driver A went to Q7 etc etc. Very confusing and if my memory is correct, BBC didn't know who was where until much later in the day when the FIA released the finalized Q standings.

I think 1 driver only dropped 2 positions instead of the 5 he was supposed to lose.

Probably totally recalled incorrectly, but at least I understood the so-called thinking behind doing it that way.

Edit: It was Spa 2010... and it mostly involved drivers at the middle/back of the grid.

#1626 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 16:42

If tomorrow afternoon Power is on pole with Chevy's 1-11 and Hondas/Lotus 12-21; does Power start 11th and 12-21 fill the top 10, or does Power start first because as the 11th qualifier with no other cars ahead of him (2-10 being penalised Chevys)?


No. They would be moved back, and the 12th place car would inherit pole.
This is the rule:

15.6.1. Any Unapproved Engine Change Out, except those
caused by Engine failure in a Race, will result in a 10-
place grid penalty.


http://www.autoracin...ook_2-10-12.pdf


#1627 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 16:43

Okay, just so we all know what we're all referring to, this is the Barber qualifying result but the current Long Beach engine changes.


Original order
1 Castroneves+10
2 Hinchcliffe+10
3 Dixon
4 Conway
5 Hildebrand+10
6 Kanaan+10
7 Viso+10
8 Rahal
9 Power+10
10 Pagenaud
11 RHR+10
12 Briscoe+10
13 Andretti+10
14 Barrichello+10
15 Newgarden
16 Sato
17 Bourdais+10
18 Franchitti
19 Wilson
20 Jakes
21 de Silvestro
22 Kimball
23 Tagliani
24 Carpenter+10
25 Legge+10
26 Servia+10

Penalty Order

1
2
3 Dixon
4 Conway
5
6
7
8 Rahal
9
10 Pagenaud
11 Castroneves+10
12 Hinchcliffe+10
13
14
15 Newgarden Hildebrand+10
16 Sato Kanaan+10
17 Viso+10
18 Franchitti
19 Wilson Power+10
20 Jakes
21 de Silvestro RHR+10
22 Kimball Briscoe+10
23 Tagliani Andretti+10
24 Barrichello+10
25
26
27 Bourdais+10
28
29
30
31
32
33
34 Carpenter+10
35 Legge+10
36 Servia+10


Yes I know I have a 36 car grid, and if we had standing starts and grid markers we could theoretically have empty rows :lol:

Rossworld© system compresses the grid into a running order with the penalised car in a tie getting the nod by having a quicker time(ie Hildebrand ahead of Newgarden)

1 Dixon
2 Conway
3 Rahal
4 Pagenaud
5 Castroneves+4
6 Hinchliffe+4
7 Hildebrand+2
8 Newgarden
9 Kanaan+3
10 Sato
11 Viso+4
12 Franchitti
13 Power+4
14 Wilson
15 Jakes
16 RHR+5
17 de Silvestro
18 Briscoe+6
19 Kimball
20 Andretti+7
21 Tagliani
22 Barrichello+8
23 Bourdais+6
24 Carpenter+0
25 Legge+0
26 Servia+0

Current(?) system where cars are locked into their mathematical position and non-penalty cars advance to fill all open slots.

1 Dixon
2 Conway
3 Rahal
4 Pagenaud
5 Newgarden
6 Sato
7 Franchitti
8 Wilson
9 Jakes
10 de Silvestro
11 Castroneves+10
12 Hinchcliffe+10
13 Kimball
14 Tagliani
15 Hildebrand+10
16 Kanaan+10
17 Viso+10
18 Power+9
19 RHR+8
20 Briscoe+8
21 Andretti+8
22 Barrichello+8
23 Bourdais+6
24 Carpenter+0
25 Legge+0
26 Servia+0

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 13 April 2012 - 16:46.


#1628 evo

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 17:42

doesn't indy have a similar but more complicated set of qualifying rules than f1?

do they run qualy like normal and apply the penalty after qualy or during qualy (during qualy as in say bottom 6 includes 2 penalty drivers and they then +10 each and end up last 2, etc) or does it make no difference?

#1629 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 17:48

I think everyone will run the sessions based on speed, and people will advance to the next groups even if they have a penalty. Once the grid is set, then penalties will be applied.

That said, some teams may change their strategies for qualifying based on whether they have a penalty or benefitting from half the field having to take a penalty. If you're the only non-Chevy in Q3, you don't even need to run a lap to be on pole.

#1630 billm99uk

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 20:02

Er...
Most series move non penalized cars up the grid. So those cars are actually making up places. The only occasion where the gap is left is because of inability for the car to make to the grid on time. Or the famed US GP with 6 cars.


Thanks. I've got it now. Friday afternoon, my brain is shutting down for the weekend :blush:

Doh... yeah, and I forgot this is Indycar=Rolling Start.
So in a rolling start, even with stalled cars waiting in pitlane there is no gap at all.


Were'nt they considering standing starts on road/street courses at some point in the pre-season? Gave that a definite no then? :confused:

Edited by billm99uk, 13 April 2012 - 20:03.


#1631 Risil

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 20:07

Were'nt they considering standing starts on road/street courses at some point in the pre-season? Gave that a definite no then? :confused:


Word is they'll be trying it midseason. Robin Miller says Edmonton.

#1632 billm99uk

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 20:22

Word is they'll be trying it midseason. Robin Miller says Edmonton.


Should be interesting. Wonder what the low speed traction is like on the DW12?

#1633 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 21:15

With 'standard' clutches and the amount of power they have, they should move around a bit coming off the line.

I can't remember now, did CART/ChampCar/Whatever do it in 2007 when they had the Panoz?

#1634 Risil

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 21:16

Yeah. From Portland onwards iirc.

Edited by Risil, 13 April 2012 - 21:17.


#1635 HaydenFan

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 21:50

Yeah. From Portland onwards iirc.


I remember a some of the drivers stalling and ruining their race from it too.



#1636 SKL

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 22:06

It hurts watching that video to remember how good the Panoz or Lola for that matter looked compared to the Dallaras, either the new one or the old crapwagon... thanks again Tony :(

#1637 Dispenser89

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 22:08

Yeah, they were pretty good with the Panoz. Hope they are with the DW12.

#1638 Xpat

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 14:12

It hurts watching that video to remember how good the Panoz or Lola for that matter looked compared to the Dallaras, either the new one or the old crapwagon... thanks again Tony :(


Two decades, a new century, a new millennium...time to move on. Seriously. :rolleyes:

#1639 saudoso

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 15:43

Little thing I noticed today in the race schedulle : Est. 1:10 DSYE & 1:17 Green Flag

'Gentlemen start your engines' is outdated! Never really took notice before.

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#1640 Risil

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 15:46

I quite liked it in the olden days when the announcer said, with weird emphasis as if he was imagining Lyn St James naked, "Lady and gentlemen, start your engines!" :drunk:

#1641 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 15:47

that's quite an accusation against Mrs Hulman-George :p

#1642 Risil

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 15:49

:lol: I could swear she ran other events too!

#1643 anbeck

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:03

Wasn't the DW12 to be less fly-happy than the old car?

If you look at the Andretti-Rahal crash closely, you will see that not only the new configuration with the rear bumber fails at preventing cars from being launched from each other. I am even under the impression that the new sidepods help launching the car! Andretti's left sidepod really kind of glides over Rahal's left rear tyre, which really helps the air getting under the car. And this was at slow speed, compared to an oval.

#1644 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:13

You can never fully prevent cars from flying. The problem with the old car was that it very easily entered an attitude where it would take off. I don't think you can draw conclusions from Andretti's accident.

#1645 Peat

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:48

Larger floor area aswell, flew like an LMP car.....

Also, about the sidepods, Look at this picture:
Posted Image

I thought that CART/IRL sidepods were high and forward of the cockpit for a reason....? (To protect against thumping concrete walls on ovals)

With the DW12, i can visualise:

- The front wheels being pushed up towards the driver's head during a 'normal' oval crash (i.e 35deg glancing impact).

- Other cars extremities getting closer to driver's head in the event of multiple car wrecks

- The extended floor tearing holes into SAFER barriers on minor crashes.


Having said that, at least they have solved the 'getting into the chees-grater' problem. By the looks of Marco's lowspeed aerobatics, the DW12 should easily clear the fence at 200mph and go into orbit!

#1646 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:56

I don't know what you expect from the car. Just seen the Marco crash again. His car didn't appear to be lifting after the initial launch.

Also aren't the sidepods for the ovals different?

#1647 anbeck

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:26

It's just that these rear bumpers seem to be only a placebo.

#1648 jamiegc

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:36

Surely the aim of the rear bumper is not to avoid launching but rather to absorb some of the impact.

#1649 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:32

I would think so. If the bumpers were too strong they would not form a safe crash structure.

#1650 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 13:49

Wasn't the DW12 to be less fly-happy than the old car?

If you look at the Andretti-Rahal crash closely, you will see that not only the new configuration with the rear bumber fails at preventing cars from being launched from each other. I am even under the impression that the new sidepods help launching the car! Andretti's left sidepod really kind of glides over Rahal's left rear tyre, which really helps the air getting under the car. And this was at slow speed, compared to an oval.

I think it's too early to tell. We can't tell much from the kinetic launches like Marco had, other than that the bumper is not fool-proof. The real test is going to be if cars are taking off when they run over squirrel shit and lift their nose by a tenth of an inch.