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What to focus on in design?


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#1 NeilR

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 23:36

I have been building a single seat car for a year now and it will be finished around the end of this year. It will run on the track in the following video. Could people have a look at the layout and comment about what aspects of car design they think would be best to focus on for such a tight layout? We are currently not that focused on top speed, but will try to maximise down force.
BTW this is the first time the track has been run in this direction and this practice run was about 10 seconds off the winning pace.
http://www.youtube.c...p;v=l22zfLcm8-c

Edited by NeilR, 01 November 2011 - 23:41.


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#2 Greg Locock

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 02:03

My left knee aches watching that.

here's a photo, http://sportingregis...om/bryant-park/

more interesting than a Tilke track

#3 Lukin

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:57

Will the road speed be enough to get a benefit of downforce?

I would concentrate on ways of generating tyre and brake temperature and front grip/rotation?

#4 NeilR

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:21

Good question. Peak speed (at this track) will be 160kph and average speed will be 90kph. We have access to Ansys CFD to refine things and drag is not that big an issue. Wings F/R will be 1650mm wide.
Tyre temps - ok will look at this.

#5 Kelpiecross

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 12:45

Good question. Peak speed (at this track) will be 160kph and average speed will be 90kph. We have access to Ansys CFD to refine things and drag is not that big an issue. Wings F/R will be 1650mm wide.
Tyre temps - ok will look at this.


What happened to the Godiva project?

#6 cheapracer

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 13:39

What happened to the Godiva project?


Those fast direction changes and rarely in a straight line will lean heavily on low polar moments so tight packaging will help as would rear weight bias but those 2 things don't always go together.

Narrow track DeDion rear, 2 tyres on the tarmac and not on the kerbs.

Oh and I hate video's that take 45 darn seconds before the car gets going.


#7 NeilR

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 20:58

What happened to the Godiva project?



Chassis getting welded together in next three weeks...I have to stop as magazine needs to get finished and out there.

#8 PvL

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 23:29

copy a F3 but with more power?

#9 NeilR

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 23:37

copy a F3 but with more power?


There are a number of ex-F3 Dallara's being converted and currently running. One has a hayabusa engine in it and I believe that and I believe that Malcolm Oastler is going to do this too. Ron Hay has one of the Intrepid V8's (bike engine V8 from NZ) going into his and Dean Tighe has a 4lt EV Judd going into his. Note that the Dallara's do not do that well with the monoshock front end.
We are going the other way with 750cc engines (135bhp) - a car along the size of a formula ford, with wings and 50kg lighter.
e.g.: Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by NeilR, 02 November 2011 - 23:39.


#10 MatsNorway

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:14

What is the rules in this class?



#11 NeilR

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:38

formula libre - almost anything goes. We plan front wing - 2 element. Rear wing - two element plus underfloor tunnels and large diffuser. Flexible side skirts will be used. We are not chasing all out performance/FTD , but do want a refined package with no major weaknesses to have fun in.

#12 cheapracer

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 09:44

Dean Tighe has a 4lt EV Judd going into his.

We are going the other way with 750cc engines (135bhp)


You should point Dean to this article ... http://www.racemagaz...o...41&Itemid=1

Gruntguru should read that as well.

And you should sell the 135hp 750 screamer and get a lighter 135hp TLR1000 or other VTwin with a much broader power delivery. Ultimately the much overlooked 160+hp 1200cc V4 VMax turned sideways would be the go, grunt city right there with massive mid range.


#13 NeilR

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 10:17

You should point Dean to this article ... http://www.racemagaz...o...41&Itemid=1

Gruntguru should read that as well.

And you should sell the 135hp 750 screamer and get a lighter 135hp TLR1000 or other VTwin with a much broader power delivery. Ultimately the much overlooked 160+hp 1200cc V4 VMax turned sideways would be the go, grunt city right there with massive mid range.



No, we've covered this a bit in the past. the 0-750cc class is poorly populated and the four cars we will complete will basically run against each other for fun as we learn what to do in a single seater. If we go too big, too fast, too soon it could get expensive and worse. Were I to have my choice I'd love a KTM RC8R engine (1195cc, 175bhp and 56kg) ...but then so many others would too, which why they are expensive.

#14 MatsNorway

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 11:17

You can allways add a turbo when you feel ready for it.
Or a supercharger if gearing is eating time in corners.

Edited by MatsNorway, 03 November 2011 - 11:22.


#15 NeilR

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 12:06

You can allways add a turbo when you feel ready for it.
Or a supercharger if gearing is eating time in corners.


True, but we can drop 15kg from the car with a different chassis.
However I posted the vid so people could get a reasonable idea of the track layout and what we were going to run on.

#16 MatsNorway

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 13:53

True, but we can drop 15kg from the car with a different chassis.
However I posted the vid so people could get a reasonable idea of the track layout and what we were going to run on.


i did not watch the video in detail but it seemed to have only oversteer. More rubber at the back or more weigth to the front?

how is the current toe settings?

#17 cheapracer

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 14:39

... the 0-750cc class


Ok, I didn't know there was a 750 class. Guess in that case it's hard to beat a 750/4 bike engine unless you can go 2 stroke then there's some options.


I did not watch the video in detail but it seemed to have only oversteer. ?


Looked like a simple practice look'see without any pre-run prep such as tyre warming.





#18 NeilR

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 20:43

yes I think Doug was just going out to remember which way the track went - he's from interstate. If you look at the front tyres he seems to have too much pressure in them. That said the lola has always been able to over power it's rear wheels!
Mats the video is just to give everyone a perspective on the track and roughly the speeds expected. Our cars will be 1-2 sec slower than this...esp with me driving!

#19 faaaz

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 21:41

This looks like a load of fun, where do I sign up!?

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#20 desmo

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 22:49

Watching the video it looks like the car might well be faster with some engine detuning.

#21 gruntguru

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 10:29

Will the road speed be enough to get a benefit of downforce?

Hillclimb formula libre regs allow enough aero to make DF significant on even the slowest tracks.

#22 Ben Wilson

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 13:31

Ok, I didn't know there was a 750 class. Guess in that case it's hard to beat a 750/4 bike engine unless you can go 2 stroke then there's some options.


2 strokes are allowed, I'm thinking there must be some sort of snowmobile motor/CVT combo which would prove interesting...

#23 MatsNorway

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 19:04

you can allways go outboard motor.

Probably not competitive.

What about wankel?

#24 cheapracer

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 08:51

2 strokes are allowed, I'm thinking there must be some sort of snowmobile motor/CVT combo which would prove interesting...


3 x 250cc 55hp MX engines = 165hp, big mid range torque and years of reliable running.

They don't even have to be very new, they have been over 50hp for donkeys years.

Of course 6 x 125cc engines at 40hp .......

#25 MatsNorway

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 17:00

3 x 250cc 55hp MX engines = 165hp, big mid range torque and years of reliable running.

They don't even have to be very new, they have been over 50hp for donkeys years.

Of course 6 x 125cc engines at 40hp .......


there is Kawazaki 750 two strokes... air cooled. 3cyl engines.

could ofc go mixes like the ones cheapy speaks about. http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Remove the cooling fins and add water injection and you got the cooling fixed. highest power/to weight ratio by a long way.

Is it allowed to charge in the 750 class? if so you could go 1 cyl 500ccm motocross engine with supercharger.



OT:
gotta wonder why they want to fire up those accidents waiting to happen engines...

Edited by MatsNorway, 05 November 2011 - 17:03.


#26 cheapracer

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 18:09

there is Kawazaki's 750 two stroke... air cooled. 3cyl engines.


And it's way too old in design to be serious, you might get 100 stupidly peaky hp from it with bad gearbox ratios that would make it undrivable.

NeilR's current 4 stroke 750 would crap all over it in every respect including weight.




#27 NeilR

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 05:44

And it's way too old in design to be serious, you might get 100 stupidly peaky hp from it with bad gearbox ratios that would make it undrivable.

NeilR's current 4 stroke 750 would crap all over it in every respect including weight.


The engine I have chosen is detailed here: http://www.gsxr-suzu...sxr-750-k8.html
I think this is fine and well up to the job...other aspects need far more refinement to come anywhere close to how good the powerplant is!

#28 MatsNorway

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 17:39

The engine I have chosen is detailed here: http://www.gsxr-suzu...sxr-750-k8.html
I think this is fine and well up to the job...other aspects need far more refinement to come anywhere close to how good the powerplant is!


Gixxer is the thing to have.

How much does that motor weight? And have you considered running water injection? saves you the weight of the radiators and water. More compact design as well. making aero design easier.

Check out this wankel: http://www.nortonmot.../racing/NRV588/

Keep us updated on the progress.

Cheapy one old motor mentioned does not make the idea flawed.

It did break some records in its time btw.


Edited by MatsNorway, 06 November 2011 - 18:04.


#29 gruntguru

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 22:49

And have you considered running water injection? saves you the weight of the radiators and water. More compact design as well. making aero design easier.

I haven't heard of water injection replacing the cooling system - do you have more info? I would think that (if even possible) would require very high injection rates and a crankase full of water/oil emulsion.

#30 NeilR

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 03:27

Gixxer is the thing to have.

How much does that motor weight? And have you considered running water injection? saves you the weight of the radiators and water. More compact design as well. making aero design easier.



I have not weighed my engine. Internet information (for what it's worth) says that it should weigh 55-58KG...though it feels heavier than that when I lift the damn thing! I suspect this weight may not include the exhaust and intake. So say 60KG not counting the 4kg catalytic converter.

#31 cheapracer

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 03:44

It did break some records in its time btw.


You ran over some 33's?


#32 Tony Matthews

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 08:22

You ran over some 33's?

:)

#33 MatsNorway

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 12:24

I haven't heard of water injection replacing the cooling system - do you have more info? I would think that (if even possible) would require very high injection rates and a crankase full of water/oil emulsion.


This surprices me. Its not at all uncommon in Skandinavia to do. Main issue (i think) is that the water stiffens the block up somehow and they then fill it with a concrete and epoxy mix istead. But this is largely done on big hp turbo engines.

this one is water injected.

http://www.youtube.c...etailpage#t=11s


http://en.wikipedia....ction_(engines)
Sources appart from wiki you mean?
http://www.rallycars...rInjection.html

So since epoxy/concrete probably isn`t a option... could the block take it without the water? isn?t it a stressed member in the bike?
Should be stiff but could be at the wrong places.

Mr greglocock could perhaps have some more about this. :D
http://www.eng-tips....d.cfm?qid=72284

Edited by MatsNorway, 07 November 2011 - 12:39.


#34 cheapracer

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 13:09

:)


Sad to realize that mostly only us older blokes will get that one ...

#35 Tony Matthews

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 13:21

It won't be long before the mention of CDs will get a puzzled look.

#36 pugfan

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 00:11

It won't be long before the mention of CDs will get a puzzled look.


Quite, my wife has just bought a new laptop and I'm unsure why it has an optical drive given how much weight and space the drive requires in the laptop and the size and cost of USB thumb drives/ SD cards these days.

#37 gruntguru

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 01:10

You ran over some 33's?

You mean 331/3 don't you?

#38 Tony Matthews

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 08:12

Whatever happened to the 16s?

#39 Catalina Park

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:10

Whatever happened to the 16s?

I knew a bloke that had a 16rpm record player in his Holden. A fancy unit that hung under the dash on springs and dampers to stop the needle jumping. It was the going to be the big thing. Then the 8 track killed it before it really happened.


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#40 gruntguru

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 11:18

Then the 8 track killed it before it really happened.

He traded it in on an 8 track? :rotfl:

#41 cheapracer

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 11:57

He traded it in on an 8 track? :rotfl:


What's the problem with 8 track?

Posted Image

Edited by cheapracer, 08 November 2011 - 11:58.


#42 sharo

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:47

You guys are sometimes so enigmatic for a person who hadn't lived in your society :)

#43 Tony Matthews

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 13:27

The brother of a friend of mine installed a mains Grundig reel-to-reel tape machine in his Austin A35. To power it he mounted two extra dynamos in the engine compartment, driven by a spaghetti of belts, a rotary converter in the passenger foot-well, and big speakers in the back. Buddy Holly and Jerry Lee Lewis could be heard and appreciated for some time before the Austin came into view.

#44 Canuck

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:28

As the owner of an early Phillips reel-to-reel (the first "portable" unit with one speaker in the cover and one mounted in the front) I can't imagine how heavy that Grundig was.

#45 Greg Locock

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:05

As the owner of an early Phillips reel-to-reel (the first "portable" unit with one speaker in the cover and one mounted in the front) I can't imagine how heavy that Grundig was.

woosies. I used to collect data in an Esprit with a Racal 12 track 1/2" tape recorder that weighed 28 kgf in my lap. and I had to walk uphill to school both ways.

#46 Canuck

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:08

Through waist-deep snow!

#47 Tony Matthews

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:45

A mile underground...

#48 cheapracer

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:20

.. and arrive at his hole in the ground .... well it was a home to him ...

#49 Magoo

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:42

Through waist-deep snow!


in lemon yellow slacks.


#50 Tony Matthews

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:20

:rotfl: