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#1 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 15:11

I have been told that when a privateer bought a Gordini Formula racer around 1950 +/- years , they had to be Gordini blue.

I have so far only seen one non blue Gordini , the Fred Wacker blue & white .

What do you know , please ?

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#2 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 15:20

I thought one of the Belgian drivers drove a yellow one. But that may simply be an incorrect assumption.

#3 D-Type

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 16:38

I would think that sort of restriction would be unenforceable. Suppose Gordini sells a car to someone and makes him sign a piece of paper saying he'll keep it blue and the buyer then paints the car purple with yellow stripes - what can Gordini do? Go to law? I doubt any court would uphold that sort of covenant. What Gordini could do is refuse to sell any spare parts and given the legendary frailty of Gordinis that would probably be enough.

Given that most of the cars that Gordini sold would have been sold to Frenchmen, the question is academic as they would have kept them French blue if planning to compete internationally.

Apart from the Belgians that Barry mentions, were any other Gordinis sold to foreigners? Conceivably some of the sports cars might have been.

#4 SWB

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 17:35

Perhaps a case of them only offering blue, much like the Ford Model T being only available in black (apocryphal I know)? What the customer painted it afterwards would have been open.

Steve


#5 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 18:10

I thought one of the Belgian drivers drove a yellow one. But that may simply be an incorrect assumption.

Yes, that was the Ecurie Belge car, usually driven in 1952 by Johnny Claes.

Edited by Eric Dunsdon, 07 November 2011 - 18:12.


#6 Simon Thomas

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 18:50

Yes, that was the Ecurie Belge car, usually driven in 1952 by Johnny Claes.


Redmond Gallagher bought a sports car in 1954 for local Irish events. When it raced it was painted dark green with orange stripes along the sides. These were I think the international racing colours of The Irish Republic at the time and worn also by Joe Kelly's Ferrari at the TT that year.
Simon Thomas

#7 David McKinney

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 20:34

Yes, that was the Ecurie Belge car, usually driven in 1952 by Johnny Claes.

Much as I baulk at questioning my elders and betters, I think the Claes Gordini of 1952 was entered by the Viscomtesse de Walckiers. Also driven by Frère on occasion, and by the mysterious Bob O'Brien

#8 larryd

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 20:42

Redmond Gallagher bought a sports car in 1954 for local Irish events. When it raced it was painted dark green with orange stripes along the sides. These were I think the international racing colours of The Irish Republic at the time and worn also by Joe Kelly's Ferrari at the TT that year.
Simon Thomas


Did Capt John Burke not drive that one, Simon?

Or am I having one of my famous senior moments . . . . . . . .


#9 EDWARD FITZGERALD

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 21:15

Did Capt John Burke not drive that one, Simon?

Or am I having one of my famous senior moments . . . . . . . .


CORRECT , COMDT JOHN BURKE , HAD THE SAME CAR IN THE 60S , PAINTED A LIGHT BLUE , DUCK EGG OR THERE ABOUTS .

#10 Simon Thomas

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 21:30

CORRECT , COMDT JOHN BURKE , HAD THE SAME CAR IN THE 60S , PAINTED A LIGHT BLUE , DUCK EGG OR THERE ABOUTS .

Larry/Eddie
Joe Flynn had it in the late 1950s but there may have been someone else after Gallagher. Colin Crabbe bought the car in 1968 and it was sold to America. About 5 years ago the late Jean Sage was restoring on behalf of the new French owner. The car featured in a small painting on Jean's Christmas card one year around that time. The colour....French blue.
Simon Thomas

#11 T54

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 21:45

The Works Gordini driven a couple times by JM Fangio had its engine cover painted in yellow so as to reflect his country's racing colors. Roberto Mieres also drove a works Gordini that was leased and painted red and blue...
I have read in depth Christian Huet's definitive book on Gordini (a fascinating tale) and while there is a detail of even what the machanics ate and drank, never does it say anywhere that there was such a restriction.


#12 EDWARD FITZGERALD

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 06:22

Larry/Eddie
Joe Flynn had it in the late 1950s but there may have been someone else after Gallagher. Colin Crabbe bought the car in 1968 and it was sold to America. About 5 years ago the late Jean Sage was restoring on behalf of the new French owner. The car featured in a small painting on Jean's Christmas card one year around that time. The colour....French blue.
Simon Thomas


Charlie O hara post Gallagher , but he may not have owned it

#13 uechtel

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 07:58

Apart from the Belgians that Barry mentions, were any other Gordinis sold to foreigners? Conceivably some of the sports cars might have been.


Quite a lot I think. For example in Switzerland, Rudi Fischer, Ernst Seiler, Toni Branca, all with monopostos and in Germany the Scuderia Bavaria of the two Barons von Schönborn and de Bary had a sports car and a monoposto as well. I don´t think any of those was blue.


#14 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 08:20

Quite a lot I think. For example in Switzerland, Rudi Fischer, Ernst Seiler, Toni Branca, all with monopostos and in Germany the Scuderia Bavaria of the two Barons von Schönborn and de Bary had a sports car and a monoposto as well. I don´t think any of those was blue.

I don't think the Bavarian cars were white or silver first like the German racing colours. They weren't two colored like the Suisse cars. Later the sportscar seems to be silver. But as you know only black and white pictures in those days. Hadn't Bary some French roots so a blu car sounds possible.

Having the German-French relationship in mind I can imagine that they were something like "bavarian-blue". It was a long way to a relaxed German French relationship anyway.


#15 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 08:57

Much as I baulk at questioning my elders and betters, I think the Claes Gordini of 1952 was entered by the Viscomtesse de Walckiers. Also driven by Frère on occasion, and by the mysterious Bob O'Brien

Well.older at least David. I thought that in my excitement upon seeing a thread that I could relate to, I may have jumped in too quickly, but I am sure that the yellow Gordini that we saw Johnny Claes drive in the 1952 International Trophy Race and British Grand Prix had been entered by Ecurie Belge. The car that Claes drove in the Grand Prix Des Frontieres was indeed entered by the Viscomtesse. I must admit that I have assumed that this was, in fact, the 'Belge' car. By the way. I noticed that Viscomtess de Walckiers was the nomated driver for Georges Berger's Gordini in the following years race at Chimay. All very intriguing.

#16 Bauble

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 09:54

The programme for the 1952 British Grand Prix has Claes entered by Ecurie Belge driving a Gordini, no mention of colour though.

#17 David McKinney

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:31

OK then, owned by Viscomtesse de Walckiers

#18 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 10:50

Well.older at least David. I thought that in my excitement upon seeing a thread that I could relate to, I may have jumped in too quickly, but I am sure that the yellow Gordini that we saw Johnny Claes drive in the 1952 International Trophy Race and British Grand Prix had been entered by Ecurie Belge. The car that Claes drove in the Grand Prix Des Frontieres was indeed entered by the Viscomtesse. I must admit that I have assumed that this was, in fact, the 'Belge' car. By the way. I noticed that Viscomtess de Walckiers was the nomated driver for Georges Berger's Gordini in the following years race at Chimay. All very intriguing.


Hi Eric , do I take this as a confirmation of Claes Gordini being yellow ?


#19 Bauble

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:02

Hi Eric , do I take this as a confirmation of Claes Gordini being yellow ?


Johhny's Talbot was yellow, 'his' Connaught was yellow, so it is likely that the Gordini was also, however, I cannot remember what the colour was at Silverstone on either occasion, but I would bet on Eric's memory anyday.

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#20 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:02

Hi Eric , do I take this as a confirmation of Claes Gordini being yellow ?

Yes Bjorn. If you are prepared to put any trust in my old memory, the Claes Gordini was that distinctive shade of Belgian racing yellow. Johnny Claes, by the way, was wearing a rather snazzy black sweater with contrasting white stripe around the V-neck, a rather battered looking yellow helmet and tinted goggles. Funny how all of this stays in the mind, but I always considered Johnny to be a pretty 'cool' guy and I was something of a fan. Thank you by the way, for raising this topic. :cool:

Edited by Eric Dunsdon, 08 November 2011 - 12:03.


#21 Bauble

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:05

Following on from an earlier remark by Eric, I wonder if we could not start a new forum for PRE-NOSTALGIA FANS!!! Far too much of what I read on this one is what I would describe as 'current' ie. anything after 1959!!



#22 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:36

Here we see Claes in 1952 in two pictures (12th and 13th from the top):

http://www.libraryin...4/55/album1.htm

And Fred Wacker in pictures 14:

http://www.libraryin...4/58/album1.htm

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 08 November 2011 - 12:44.


#23 David McKinney

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:39

The first one looks yellow, the second one blue :lol:

#24 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 12:59

Difficult to tell, but to me the car in both the Claes photos looks lighter than Manzon's.

#25 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 13:07

Difficult to tell, but to me the car in both the Claes photos looks lighter than Manzon's.

Ehrr, yellow?

#26 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 13:14

I'd say so. yes. :)

#27 uechtel

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 13:29

I don't think the Bavarian cars were white or silver first like the German racing colours. They weren't two colored like the Suisse cars. Later the sportscar seems to be silver. But as you know only black and white pictures in those days. Hadn't Bary some French roots so a blu car sounds possible.


Possible is everything, but on the photos the Bavaria Gordinis have a very similar grey scale to the other German cars (or to the yellow on Wahlberg´s Swedish-coloured car in one case), while usually the blue cars look darker.

Having the German-French relationship in mind I can imagine that they were something like "bavarian-blue".


If any, then Bavarian colours would have to be two-coloured white-blue, never uni-coloured...

Btw, Rudi Fischer´s car was clearly two-coloured, white front and red tail obviously.

#28 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 14:09

):

I'd say so. yes. :)

Wake up at the back there!. I thought I'd already said so, having actually seen the car!. :confused:

#29 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 14:18

Sorry Eric, I should have made it clear that the reason I believe the car in those photos is yellow (as opposed to white, cream, light grey) etc is because of your first-hand account. :)

#30 Bauble

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 14:29

Looking at the black and white photos of Johhny Claes in the Gordini I can clearly see that it is yellow in colour!

Eric is quite correct about the sweater and goggles so how can we doubt the colour of the car, which definitely looks yellow to me.

#31 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 17:06

Thank you very much Eric !



#32 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 17:37

Thank you very much Eric !

Glad that I could have been of some help for once. By the way, I believe that Veloce have a new Gordini book due for publication quite soon. Should be interesting.

#33 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 21:33

Gallagher's Gordini leading Alan Brown's winnng Cooper Bristol, Oulton Park Empire Trophy 1954...sorry it's only black and white!

Posted Image


#34 Sharman

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 22:13

Gallagher's Gordini leading Alan Brown's winnng Cooper Bristol, Oulton Park Empire Trophy 1954...sorry it's only black and white!

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Taken on the Avenue? I was at Lodge that day as a course marshal aged 16

#35 wenoopy

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 23:29

Surprisingly, no reference has yet been made to the 1954 2.5 litre F1 Gordini sold to Belgians Andre Pilette and George Berger, and driven by them in that year.

In Jenks' "MOTOR SPORT Racing Car Review" for that season, referring to the team's Pau GP entry, he says "in addition to the three team cars Pilette had the Belgian-owned Gordini, painted in the national colour of bright yellow." There are several other references to the 'yellow' car.

While this car would likely have been near the back of the field in most races, by 1954 there should have been some colour shots available, particularly at the Belgian and German GP's.

Stu

#36 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 07:33

By the way, I believe that Veloce have a new Gordini book due for publication quite soon. Should be interesting.


Indeed Eric, thanks for the good news. Just I checked:
http://www.veloce.co...d...Motorsport


#37 eldougo

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 08:51

Found a few photos that do not have any color other than BLUE Gordini as they should look like..
Gordini .
Gordini F2 1952
Posted Image...1955 Argentine GP.
Prince Bira 1974 french Gp demo
Uploaded with ImageShack.usFrom On Four Wheels no41.

Edited by eldougo, 09 November 2011 - 10:29.


#38 VDP

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 09:49

The Belgian cars were owned or rented from Comtesse de Walckiers staring first with 1500 engine en later with 2.5 in 1954

Color shot of Berger cars at Reims at ACF Grand Prix

#39 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 10:35

Taken on the Avenue? I was at Lodge that day as a course marshal aged 16


Taken from the inside of Lodge . There's a companion shot of Salvadori's Maserati showing the Lodge itself at one edge of the frame and the sandbank you see behind the Cooper at the other.





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#40 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 14:31

So we already have:
the blue Gordinis ofcourse -
the Belgian yellow cars driven by Claes, Berger, Pilette, Frere etc.
the Argentinian blue ones with yellow bonnets driven by Fangio, Mires, etc
the Suisse red and white cars driven by Fischer, Branca, Seiler etc
Gallagher's green car
Bordoni's 1953 Italian Championship winnig car, I think, was red sometimes with a blue bonnet.

But have there been white or silver Gordinis ?

Edited by Hugo Boecker, 09 November 2011 - 14:33.


#41 Sharman

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 14:39

Taken from the inside of Lodge . There's a companion shot of Salvadori's Maserati showing the Lodge itself at one edge of the frame and the sandbank you see behind the Cooper at the other.

In which case I must have been standing next to the photographer along with Jackie Reece who was the observer, Photographer wouldn't have been Frankie Penn would it? The inside of Lodge was a favourite place for him to report from.

#42 T54

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 18:22

But have there been white or silver Gordinis ?

Yes. The type 38S was (briefly) owned by writer Francoise Sagan and was painted in white. There is a picture of it in Christian Huet's book.
It is believed that this brief ownership was to help Amedee Gordini financially when he was in dire strait in 1956.

#43 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 18:44


Re post 40

Fred Wackers car was US coloured blue AND white !

Edited by Bjrn Kjer, 09 November 2011 - 21:49.


#44 David McKinney

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 20:44

A bit like it says in Post 1 :)

#45 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 23:27

In which case I must have been standing next to the photographer along with Jackie Reece who was the observer, Photographer wouldn't have been Frankie Penn would it? The inside of Lodge was a favourite place for him to report from.

The original photographer is unknown, the negs were passed on to me through the trade in their original little storage book along with some nice shots of Le Mans in 1955. Almost certainly the work of a talented-amateur, judging from where most of them were taken. A press photographer would have certainly got in closer, unless he had an unusually well developed sense of self-preservation for the era!
Do you recognise either of the officials watching Moss hot-foot it back to the paddock?(Apologies for the OT diversion)
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#46 Sharman

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 16:22

I recognise both of them but I'm damned if I can remember their names, it was 57 years ago. What is the brassard visible on the arm?

#47 RAP

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 17:04

Can anyone help with the chassis number of the "Irish" Gordini raced by Flynn, Gallagher etc ?

Thanks RAP



#48 RAP

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 19:06

I think I've just stumbled across the probable answer to my Q

 

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