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UK closed-circuit record?


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#1 Nev

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 08:12

I am doing a little research into the closed circuit record for the UK. My understanding is that the record was set at MIRA by Jaguar's prototype XJ13 in the mid-1960s (161.655mph in April 1967). It was then broken by a Lamborghini after Millbrook's high speed bowl came into operation.

(The MIRA record was subsequently broken by the McLaren F1 in 1999 at 168mph) but, as far as I know, the time set by the Lambo at Millbrook still stands.

I need to sift through all the "heresay"/"myth" and get to the facts of the matter. Does anyone know who is the responsible body for recording such records? Can anyone please confirm the history of the UK closed circuit record since 1967?

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#2 alansart

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 08:33

The lap record at Rockingham is 215mph (Tony Kanaan 2001) does that count?

#3 Allan Lupton

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:13

If such a record has an official existance, the RAC MSA would be the body responsible for supervising and recording it.


#4 jackal

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 09:32


A definition of record is......


the best performance or most remarkable event of its kind


....so it really does not matter who records the record and if the record is recorded then it is a record.


/Carl




#5 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 10:26

A definition of record is......


the best performance or most remarkable event of its kind


....so it really does not matter who records the record and if the record is recorded then it is a record.


/Carl

..I really must make a record of that ...(so I don't forget)

#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 10:34

If such a record has an official existance, the RAC MSA would be the body responsible for supervising and recording it.

I think "if" is probably the operative word. ;)

....so it really does not matter who records the record and if the record is recorded then it is a record.


/Carl

Are you actually Sir Humphrey Appleby in disguise? :p

#7 Geoff E

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 10:59

The lap record at Rockingham is 215mph (Tony Kanaan 2001) does that count?


... as noted here http://en.wikipedia....peedway#History


#8 D-Type

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 11:47

I don't think there's an official closed course one-lap record as such. The FIA only accept closed course es for long distance records.

The RAC normally normally recognise lap records set during a race and don't count qualifying and practice. On the other hand, Brooklands only recognised lap records that were set on an empty track and didn't accept times set in a race. In the US they also recognise officially timed qualifying.

In the case of MIRA or Rockingham it boils down whether you can trust the timing. If it's electronic using the installed system you probably can, but if it's a friend or a bunch of friends or colleagues with hand-held stopwatches the time is suspect.

It's a bit like golf. Most clubs only recognise scores set in competitions. I had a school friend who was an excellent golfer (handicap of 4 or so) and his kid brother was almost as good. One day when we were playing he got annoyed with his brother and broke the course record. We knew he'd used the match tees etc but nobody else did. He couldn't even tell anybody as the story could filter back to the handicap committee and influence their decision at the next review.

Edited by D-Type, 11 November 2011 - 11:52.


#9 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 12:00

Another record is the UK Closed Circuit longest race. This was the Willhire 25 hour saloon car race at Snetterton in 1989, won by the Hales / Borgudd Ford Sapphire Cosworth. An extra hour added on to celebrate Willhire's 25th anniversary. At the time claims were made that it was to be the world's longest race..Dwarfed though by the Nurburgring 84 hour & 96 hour events of the late 60s and early '70s, but were these time or distance trials rather than 'out-and-out' motor races? Any N'Ring experts?

#10 David McKinney

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 12:49

I've said before that those long-distance Nürburgring "races" were really rallies (replacement for the Liége-Rome-Liège etc) but seem to think I was shot down. Certainly the earliest versions fit the rally definition better

#11 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 13:32

I've said before that those long-distance Nürburgring "races" were really rallies (replacement for the Liége-Rome-Liège etc) but seem to think I was shot down. Certainly the earliest versions fit the rally definition better

As I understand it, the cars in the Nurburgring Marathons ran at racing speeds throughout. The car covering the greatest distance in 84 hours was the winner. It's true that there was a target lap time and exceeding it resulted in severe penalties which effectively eliminated the car. I'm not sure whether this fits the rally definition better or whether I've missed something. It's true that the events were run under a rally licence.

It would be ironic if the Nurburgring events were regarded as rallies because the pre-1965 events were seen a closer to road races than conventional rallies!

#12 David McKinney

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 15:06

It's true that there was a target lap time and exceeding it resulted in severe penalties which effectively eliminated the car.

Just like a rally special-stage, then :)

It's true that the events were run under a rally licence.

Surely that clinches the argument?

#13 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 15:46

The Marathon de la Route was slightly more complicated than that, Roger. I'd have to look up the regulations used for 1965-1967 and 1970-1971, but here are the basic regulations for 1968 and 1969:

1968:

The basic goal was to achieve the highest possible average speed over the distance without incurring mechanical breakdowns, and keeping in mind the following:

- There were no prescribed target times or average speed
- A pit stop may not take more than 20 minutes 59 seconds
- One lap may not take more than 30 minutes (first four hours) or 24 minutes (after that)
- The first three hours are a 'warm up' only and a maximum of 9 laps will be scored even if the car completes more
- The number of laps recorded during the final 12 hours may not be less than the number of laps recorded during the first 12 hours

1969:

The regulation booklet literally says: "The Marathon de la Route 1969 is not a speed race and not a rally. It is a special trial which highlights one of the main qualities of a car: the reliability."

The basic goal and regulations were the same as in 1968, except the maximum pit stop time: now 15 minutes.

As for the original question in this topic:

The 1.479 mi Rockingham Motor Speedway near Corby, England is the fastest-ever racing circuit in Europe. It has an outright record of 0.24,719 = 346.545 kph / 215.379 mph, set by Tony Kanaan (Reynard-Honda) during practice for the Rockingham 500 in September 2001. The official lap record was recorded by Jimmy Vasser (Lola-Cosworth) in 0.25,217 = 339.729 kph / 211.143 mph in September 2002.


Edited by Rob Semmeling, 11 November 2011 - 15:46.


#14 Roger Clark

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 16:05

In 1967 there was a maximum lap time for each car, dependant on its engine size and seating capacity. An additional two minutes was allowed for a night time lap. Every 12 laps a further three minutes was allowed for refuelling and every 75 laps a further 10 minutes for servicing. The penalty for one minute's lateness was one lap. The rules in 1966 were similar.

Despite all of that, the winner was the competitor covering the greatest distance, the event was continuous and there was a massed start, all of which makes it more like a race than a rally, in my opinion.

#15 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 16:12

Exactly. Some of rules were weird, bizarre even, but at the end of the day the car that achieved the greatest distance won. Sure it was often better not to go flat-out, but cars were on the track at the same time and competed against each other, not just against the clock as in a rally. Therefore I'd agree with Roger the Marathon was closer to a race than a rally. Obviously you are free to disagree, David :wave:

#16 D-Type

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 17:14

I read somewhere that the Liege was nominally a rally. You were penalised if you took longer than the allowed time on any stage. Hence it could get a permit from the various authorities.

But, if you took the allowed time on all stages you would find after a while that controls were closed to you, ie you were time barred. So, in practice you had to arrive early as frequently as you could. Which means that in effect it was flat out all the way - a race in all but name.

#17 m.tanney

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 21:43

Closed course records came up on this thread back in 2003. The FIA did not have a "closed course" record category at the time of the XJ13 and Lamborghini speed runs. If it wasn't an FIA record category, it is unlikely that it was an official RAC category, even if the RAC oversaw the timing. If there is an official UK closed course record, it would likely have been set after the FIA created a closed course category - which was sometime after Foyt's Aerotech record. Before that, all such records were unofficial.

I'm not sure when the term "closed course speed record" first came into use. I know the Guinness Book used it in the early 1970s. I suspect that many of the drivers for whom world closed course records are now claimed had never heard the term. Some closed course records seem to have been bestowed retrospectively. I would be interested to know when the term "closed course speed record" (world or otherwise) was first used and when the first conscious attempt at setting such a record occurred.

Mike

Edited by m.tanney, 12 November 2011 - 15:27.


#18 Allan Lupton

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:08

I think you may have hit on the word that gives a vital clue, namely "Guinness" - and not in the "Bill" or "Algy" sense that we grubbers around in old motoring mags would think of it.
The Guinness Book of Records spawned an industry of defining new "records" and then measuring attempts to claim them, so it may well be that the "UK closed circuit record" is one of theirs and so nothing to do with RAC MSA controlled motor sport as we know it.