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#51 cheapracer

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:04

EV's operate at high efficiency - electric motors are very efficient, use no energy at idle and can recover energy during braking.

Then there is the absence of tailpipe emissions.


Back in your element Grunt?

No tailpipe emissions? You know damn well that there's a coal powered station in the picture pumping out emissions to charge those batteries daily and pumping out emissions to power the factory to make all those extra batteries and motors.

BTW, speaking of emissions, ever seen a copper factory? Are you aware of the processes to make copper? - something you should research.

I would love to see electric cars in dense cities from first hand experience as I have mentioned before immediate air quality and noise, but get off the overall pollution impact nonsense.



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#52 Magoo

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 12:27

One calculation showed that if CO2 reduction was your personal aim you should run your Volt on petrol, or sell it and buy something economical.


Would I want to see this calculation before swallowing it hook, line, and sinker?



#53 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 15:24

Yup, that's one of the more likely caps on the price of oil. Once it hits $8/US gallon wholesale then the economics of Fischer Tropsch become irresistible. OPEC's core job is to ensure that there is sufficient uncertainity in the future price of oil that no-one can get finance to set another FT industry up.

It would be interesting to tradeoff between a mix of coal fired generators and EVs, vs FT derived diesel in IC cars.



I don't think that there is a price issue between oil derived petrol and the coal derived product.My old Dad told me years ago about the benefits of running his motorbike on high octane coal derived National Benzole and the price was not much if any different at the pump between the two products.By the way the price of petrol in Saudi Arabia shows the true market value of oil as it stands at present.About 50 US cents per gallon at the pump.




http://www.en.wikipe...ational_Benzole

Edited by Vanishing Point, 16 November 2011 - 18:32.


#54 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 15:31

It's a concept. I don't have the figures to prove it's the holy grail and is going to make the IC engine redundant. What I do know however is that in isolation an IC engine is theoretically inferior to an electric motor in terms of efficiency, torque, size, pretty much any parameter (assuming a good power supply of course!). And that's before you've taken into account the amount of extra engineering required in gearboxes, drive shafts etc to harness optimal power from an IC engine. It may well be a highly optimised IC engine running constantly at optimal power output driving a generator at the behest of the electric drive motors which it powers could be a massive mechanical efficiency gain. I realize this is already being done to an extent on hybrid cars but it hasn't been attempted as I foresee it being most beneficial. It's a long way off and requires a lot of drive train rethinking.

#55 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 15:45

It's a concept. I don't have the figures to prove it's the holy grail and is going to make the IC engine redundant. What I do know however is that in isolation an IC engine is theoretically inferior to an electric motor in terms of efficiency, torque, size, pretty much any parameter (assuming a good power supply of course!). And that's before you've taken into account the amount of extra engineering required in gearboxes, drive shafts etc to harness optimal power from an IC engine. It may well be a highly optimised IC engine running constantly at optimal power output driving a generator at the behest of the electric drive motors which it powers could be a massive mechanical efficiency gain. I realize this is already being done to an extent on hybrid cars but it hasn't been attempted as I foresee it being most beneficial. It's a long way off and requires a lot of drive train rethinking.


Just basic high school teaching says that using electric transmission in an IC powered car will be less fuel efficient and results in higher power loss at the wheels than just using the conventional IC engine and mechanical transmission.If electric is so good and so efficient why is it that Jaguar haven't chosen to use full electric transmission in the C-X16 instead of the present set up and even in it's present form it can't compete with the 5 Litre V8 XKRS let alone if it was all electric transmission.Think we've aready sorted out the logical conclusion of the advantage which IC engines have over electric motors in the top fuel versus electric dragster comparison.


#56 24gerrard

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 17:34

Just basic high school teaching says that using electric transmission in an IC powered car will be less fuel efficient and results in higher power loss at the wheels than just using the conventional IC engine and mechanical transmission.If electric is so good and so efficient why is it that Jaguar haven't chosen to use full electric transmission in the C-X16 instead of the present set up and even in it's present form it can't compete with the 5 Litre V8 XKRS let alone if it was all electric transmission.Think we've aready sorted out the logical conclusion of the advantage which IC engines have over electric motors in the top fuel versus electric dragster comparison.


Any ic advantage is solely in your mind VP.
Vrrm Vrrm yeheeeey

#57 carlt

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 18:31

EVs used for commuting would/could/should be charged over night when power stations are dumping product
One single source of emissions [ power station ] is easier to control/clean/regulate/run efficiently/run optimally etc etc etc than thousands of individual IC engines

the battery/power storage is the only issue that needs sorting - I personally can't understand all the naysayers


#58 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 18:37

EVs used for commuting would/could/should be charged over night when power stations are dumping product
One single source of emissions [ power station ] is easier to control/clean/regulate/run efficiently/run optimally etc etc etc than thousands of individual IC engines

the battery/power storage is the only issue that needs sorting - I personally can't understand all the naysayers


The battery/power issue is the main issue that can't be sorted which is why electric cars were obsolete from the beginning.If not we'd all be using the things now and all the Ferraris etc etc ever built would all have been electric not made with proper engines.But the key words control/regulate/run say everything about the real motives behind it all.Control freak government policy in action.But do you really think that the present rip off costs of diesel/petrol road fuel won't just be transferred onto electricity by the generation companies and suppliers if there was a large scale changeover to electric powered cars.Even as things stand at present it would probably be more cost effective to run a small diesel generator for the home than to pay for the cost of electricity provided by the British national grid suppliers.


http://www.mirror.co...15875-23550440/

Edited by Vanishing Point, 16 November 2011 - 19:17.


#59 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 18:50

Any ic advantage is solely in your mind VP.
Vrrm Vrrm yeheeeey



It's not surprising that anyone who can even really think that an ev can be faster,more efficient and more practical,than something with a proper engine in it,would never understand basic engineering logic concerning the superiority of the IC engine (with conventional transmission not electric).

Edited by Vanishing Point, 16 November 2011 - 18:51.


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#60 carlt

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 19:11

.Control freak government policy in action.


I see they've let him out again
bloody Care in the Community

#61 Bob Riebe

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 19:17

Completely agree. This isn't my argument though. I'm saying the electric motor is better than the IC engine. We just need to improve the supply of electricity by battery or other means. See jaguars latest concept. Not ridiculous to suggest the future of the IC engine might be as an onboard generator for electric drive motors built into the wheels.

Diesel railroad engine have had that for well over seventy years. If it were practical I think someone would have made a few prototypes by now.

It seems few to none of the posters here live or have ever lived where winter snow can jam an internal combustion engine bay at times, or sub-zero F are the norm in winter.

A vehicle up here must endure an entirely different set of needs to those in the non-frigid part of the country/world and there are millions of car buyers living up here.
One being-- it is no problem to have a car without Air-conditioning, but it is an absolute must to have a car heater.

With the financial problems car companies have now, does any one think they are going to produce two sets of vehicles for two different climates?

#62 MatsNorway

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 19:45

With the financial problems car companies have now, does any one think they are going to produce two sets of vehicles for two different climates?


I have been wondering about similar things myself. The cars gets issues getting hot at winter. At least the old diesel did... So whe had to stuff carboard in front of the radiator.

Im thinking i might do it with my corolla too.

I mean.. a luxury vehicle should have auto folding vanes or something infront of the radiator.

another thing that could be a good idea in the winter is to have variable combustion. you could run higher with the cold air.

how much i wonder.. anyone know? roughly.

Saab had variable comp but i think they made it just to fix knock and so on. wrong approach perhaps?


#63 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 19:45

Diesel railroad engine have had that for well over seventy years. If it were practical I think someone would have made a few prototypes by now.



Trains need to transmit a lot more torque from engine to wheels which wouldn't be as practical using mechanical transmissions.The engines are also powerful enough for power losses in electric transmission to be irrelevant and the fuel consumption differences of converting IC power outputs to electric power outputs aren't as much of an issue at train type payloads as they are with cars,buses and trucks.

#64 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 19:51

I have been wondering about similar things myself. The cars gets issues getting hot at winter. At least the old diesel did... So whe had to stuff carboard in front of the radiator.

Im thinking i might do it with my corolla too.

I mean.. a luxury vehicle should have auto folding vanes or something infront of the radiator.

another thing that could be a good idea in the winter is to have variable combustion. you could run higher with the cold air.

how much i wonder.. anyone know? roughly.

Saab had variable comp but i think they made it just to fix knock and so on. wrong approach perhaps?



It would be interesting to see how far an ev that relies on batteries would get using battery capacity to run electric heating/air conditioning in addition to providing lights and power for it's electric motor/s.

Rolls Royces had automatic radiator shutters for years.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 16 November 2011 - 19:57.


#65 Greg Locock

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 21:08

It seems few to none of the posters here live or have ever lived where winter snow can jam an internal combustion engine bay at times, or sub-zero F are the norm in winter.

A vehicle up here must endure an entirely different set of needs to those in the non-frigid part of the country/world and there are millions of car buyers living up here.
One being-- it is no problem to have a car without Air-conditioning, but it is an absolute must to have a car heater.

With the financial problems car companies have now, does any one think they are going to produce two sets of vehicles for two different climates?

You do know that batteries capacity halves at -20 deg F? You do know that a car heater runs at about 2-3 kW? Cold climate EVs are a very different animal to temperate ones. The Volt keeps its batteries warm electrically... until they go flat.

Of course cars are produced at different specs for different markets. Sometimes the changes are small, tires and oil coolers, for example.

#66 Vanishing Point

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 21:21

You do know that batteries capacity halves at -20 deg F? You do know that a car heater runs at about 2-3 kW? Cold climate EVs are a very different animal to temperate ones. The Volt keeps its batteries warm electrically... until they go flat.



:rotfl: What's the power consumption of the battery heaters.

There's a big difference in the cost though of 2-3 kW/h of heat extracted from the cooling system of an IC engine than paying for 2-3 kW/h of electricity at the meter for an EV.That's if you can get it back to the charge point before the batteries go flat.




http://www.topgear.c...es-17-episode-6




http://www.topgear.c...es-17-episode-6


Edited by Vanishing Point, 16 November 2011 - 21:39.


#67 Greg Locock

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 21:32

Would I want to see this calculation before swallowing it hook, line, and sinker?


Google is your friend. Here's one example, http://tucsoncitizen...asoline-engine/

They left out charger efficiency, there's no engineering reason why it shouldn't be 98%, but my guess is 90% or less.

They've also left out the distribution side for each fuel, that's a 17% hit for petrol, rather more for coal.

#68 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 November 2011 - 22:15

You do know that batteries capacity halves at -20 deg F? You do know that a car heater runs at about 2-3 kW? Cold climate EVs are a very different animal to temperate ones. The Volt keeps its batteries warm electrically... until they go flat.

Of course cars are produced at different specs for different markets. Sometimes the changes are small, tires and oil coolers, for example.

That is why some vehicles built for one market is a problem in another.
EVs will never be more than an eco oddity. They are not practical enough, useless in cold climates, use more power powering the A/C in warm. No real range and are slow and boring. That is why the young hoon in the area flogs his Prius on petrol, because it [sort of] accelarates properly. And as Top Gear proved very inneficient
EVs are good for Greenie road hogs, not real motorists.On the other hand for something like a train they are efficient, though not as efficient as some will try to make you believe.
Horses for courses, electric is very good for most stationary applications, quiet powerful and reliable.Though in a battery situation very iffy but with a constant mains supply the best. Diesels are good for heavy trucks and low speed applications and trendy and practical [just] for some passenger applications.But noisy, harsh, slow and icky yucky[quoting a lady friend] to refuel Though with high maintence costs.
Leaving a petrol engine which is powerful, accelarates well, quiet, smooth cheap to maintain for normal passenger cars. Which is what most people want from a car.
Even in a bigger 4wd the choice is quite clear. A petrol which accelarates well, is quiet and smooth or a diesel which has better low end power for bush work but is slower and less responsive in traffic. Personally I will take the petrol with its cheaper maintenace costs [and fuel costs top normally though the petrol will use a bit more fuel] though if I lived in a outer rural area maybe then the deisel. I have owned both and know the costs.
A mate bought a new Nissan Navara ute a couple of years ago, he was thinking diesel but did the math and it would be at least 100000km to recoup the extra expense of the diesel. And the diesel was being offered at a very favorable cost. And resale is quite similar so really what is the point?

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 16 November 2011 - 22:23.


#69 Magoo

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:36

Google is your friend. Here's one example, http://tucsoncitizen...asoline-engine/


There's an obvious error in these figures which is causing you to overstate the CO2 emissions on battery power by one-third.

Hint: <cough> 16 kWh <cough>


#70 Greg Locock

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 10:51

There's an obvious error in these figures which is causing you to overstate the CO2 emissions on battery power by one-third.

Hint: <cough> 16 kWh <cough>

Sure, but that isn't /my/calculation, it is just an example. Almost every number there is debatable, from the drive cycle used onwards. Obviously generator mix is a vital ingredient, many greenies insist that they pay the green energy supplement and therefore their CO2 emissions are lower.



#71 24gerrard

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 11:31

Sure, but that isn't /my/calculation, it is just an example. Almost every number there is debatable, from the drive cycle used onwards. Obviously generator mix is a vital ingredient, many greenies insist that they pay the green energy supplement and therefore their CO2 emissions are lower.


Grasping at straws here.

#72 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:33

No tailpipe emissions? You know damn well that there's a coal powered station in the picture pumping out emissions to charge those batteries daily and pumping out emissions to power the factory to make all those extra batteries and motors.

Which is exactly why I used the word "tailpipe". If you had been following the thread you would have noticed post #37:-

. . . . and urban toxic (exhaust) emissions would be zero. (Vehicular exhaust emissions are responsible for almost a million deaths every year.)

The emissions from a coal-fired power station are less toxic and certainly not released at ground level in city streets.

BTW, speaking of emissions, ever seen a copper factory? Are you aware of the processes to make copper? - something you should research.

No need to research - I wager I know more about those processes than you do. I have worked in a copper smelter (smelly, but I would rather be there than any city sidewalk in peak hour). I have worked in a lead smelter (not as smelly but scarier). I have worked in an electrolytic copper refinery (quite benign - no scary emissions) and a copper mill (hot rolling). Maybe they do things differently in China.

How does the copper content of an EV compare to your daily driver?

#73 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:38

It's not surprising that anyone who can even really think that an ev can be faster,more efficient and more practical,than something with a proper engine in it,would never understand basic engineering logic concerning the superiority of the IC engine (with conventional transmission not electric).

You are in a forum full of engineers and your grasp of basic engineering is the laughing stock here.

#74 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:42

It would be interesting to see how far an ev that relies on batteries would get using battery capacity to run electric heating/air conditioning in addition to providing lights and power for it's electric motor/s.

Lights - 200W
Heater - 2000W
AC - 2000W (Peak)
Electric drive motor 100,000W

#75 Magoo

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:47

Sure, but that isn't /my/calculation, it is just an example. Almost every number there is debatable, from the drive cycle used onwards. Obviously generator mix is a vital ingredient, many greenies insist that they pay the green energy supplement and therefore their CO2 emissions are lower.


The Volt's working battery capacity is not 16 kWh but 10.4 kWh. So the CO2 is not .55 lbs/hr (using your source's figures for grid CO2) but .36 lbs/hr, vs. .53 lbs/hr for gasoline. Your source was off by 35 percent. Oops.

Yes, there is a lot of bad info. Please stop disseminating it.





#76 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 13:35

Just basic high school teaching says that using electric transmission in an IC powered car will be less fuel efficient and results in higher power loss at the wheels than just using the conventional IC engine and mechanical transmission.If electric is so good and so efficient why is it that Jaguar haven't chosen to use full electric transmission in the C-X16 instead of the present set up and even in it's present form it can't compete with the 5 Litre V8 XKRS let alone if it was all electric transmission.Think we've aready sorted out the logical conclusion of the advantage which IC engines have over electric motors in the top fuel versus electric dragster comparison.


Sorry, you are stuck in what has and is being done with existing drive train technologies which need to be rethought. I'm thinking to the future and potential of having the wheel and electric motor as a combined unit amongst other things. Forget about unsprung weight arguments, materials and electrical engineering will solve that issue eventually. A correctly harnessed electric motor can provide masses more power and torque than any IC engine and do it more efficiently to boot. It's just being temporarily bottle necked. The person/company to solve this issue once and for all will blow the oil companies out of the water (If they aren't working for them already!).

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 17 November 2011 - 13:59.


#77 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 15:21

You are in a forum full of engineers and your grasp of basic engineering is the laughing stock here.


So you're the type of 'engineer' who'd waste his money on buying a Jaguar C-X16 instead of an XKRS (although my engineering is good enough to find a way of fitting the thing with a proper manual gearbox and ditching the speed limiter and reducing the final drive ratio instead to give it even more acceleration to blow the doors off of your toy car :rotfl: .Maybe it's that my 'grasp' of 'engineering' isn't based on,and been distorted by, some raving 'Global Warming' hypothesis.

#78 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 15:23

Lights - 200W
Heater - 2000W
AC - 2000W (Peak)
Electric drive motor 100,000W



Doesn't really answer my question though.

#79 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 15:33

Sorry, you are stuck in what has and is being done with existing drive train technologies which need to be rethought. I'm thinking to the future and potential of having the wheel and electric motor as a combined unit amongst other things. Forget about unsprung weight arguments, materials and electrical engineering will solve that issue eventually. A correctly harnessed electric motor can provide masses more power and torque than any IC engine and do it more efficiently to boot. It's just being temporarily bottle necked. The person/company to solve this issue once and for all will blow the oil companies out of the water (If they aren't working for them already!).


Sorry you are stuck with,and still don't seem to have understood,the basic difference and losses involved,between using an IC engine with proper mechanical transmisson (clutch,manual gearbox,propshaft,diff,driveshafts) v IC engine driving a generator to convert it's output into electricity which then feeds electric motors at the wheels.Nor do you seem to have taken into consideration the overall weight penalty of your generator and electric motor/s assuming that we're talking something like a Jaguar C-X16 which can actually match the continuous performance potential (not in 10 second bursts) of a 5 Litre XKRS,fitted with a 'proper' manual box,for the same fuel consumption,in the very near future.By the way exactly how heavy is your 'wheel/s and combined electric motor/s' going to be considering the power output at the rear wheels of the XKRS.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 17 November 2011 - 15:37.


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#80 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 16:04

Sorry you are stuck with,and still don't seem to have understood,the basic difference and losses involved,between using an IC engine with proper mechanical transmisson (clutch,manual gearbox,propshaft,diff,driveshafts) v IC engine driving a generator to convert it's output into electricity which then feeds electric motors at the wheels.Nor do you seem to have taken into consideration the overall weight penalty of your generator and electric motor/s assuming that we're talking something like a Jaguar C-X16 which can actually match the continuous performance potential (not in 10 second bursts) of a 5 Litre XKRS,fitted with a 'proper' manual box,for the same fuel consumption,in the very near future.By the way exactly how heavy is your 'wheel/s and combined electric motor/s' going to be considering the power output at the rear wheels of the XKRS.


Mechanical drive train losses are massive. I understand them. All that metal twisting, friction, being accelerated, decelerated, heated. Getting rid of them could be a 15-30% performance and efficiency boost. An electric motor power/weight ratio is far better than an IC engine in isolation. Fact. Take away the mechanical drive train and it's guaranteed to be a net weight loss. The batteries are currently the weight problem NOT electric power or drivetrain.

There's nothing wrong with preferring IC engines and the way things currently are, I just get frustrated when people believe the way things are cannot be improved upon. Anything can be improved. Look how much IC has been improved in only the last 5 years. EV is at the start of a long journey.

Trains need to transmit a lot more torque from engine to wheels which wouldn't be as practical using mechanical transmissions.The engines are also powerful enough for power losses in electric transmission to be irrelevant and the fuel consumption differences of converting IC power outputs to electric power outputs aren't as much of an issue at train type payloads as they are with cars,buses and trucks.


http://www.autoinsan...k-at-altwheels/

Saw one outside my office yesterday. Refreshing not having to stop talking to my colleague as it set off from the lights or choke on it's fumes. I bet the driver wasn't complaining either, all that changing from 1st to 2nd to 3rd in city traffic must be frustrating. Smooth flat uninterrupted torque. Mmm.

I know it's more of a PR thing for Staples ATM and probably is more expensive but that doesn't mean given higher adoption it will eventually meet parity with IC trucks.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 17 November 2011 - 16:13.


#81 cheapracer

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 16:10

Which is exactly why I used the word "tailpipe". If you had been following the thread you would have noticed post #37:-

The emissions from a coal-fired power station are less toxic and certainly not released at ground level in city streets.


I don't follow these roundy roundy threads too closely; same suspects > same posts.

I support electric or natural gas cars at street level, you know that and I had to live in China cities to realize how much better it is - previously I was 300% against EV's now it's down to just 90%  ;)



No need to research - I wager I know more about those processes than you do. I have worked in a copper smelter (smelly, but I would rather be there than any city sidewalk in peak hour). I have worked in a lead smelter (not as smelly but scarier). I have worked in an electrolytic copper refinery (quite benign - no scary emissions) and a copper mill (hot rolling). Maybe they do things differently in China.

How does the copper content of an EV compare to your daily driver?


No doubt you do but I'm sure(?) you didn't work in Chile's copper mines for example.

I have a vague idea how much copper is in an EV compared to a 'normal' car - I have seen plenty of electric motors apart and there's a shitload inside big one and then there's the big thick power cables and quite a few meters of them connecting all the batteries. The rest of the systems, lights etc, should be no different between the 2.


#82 cheapracer

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 16:27

Have you ever had brake fluid on your skin/face?


?? Many times, unavoidable, but I have no idea what that means, are you suggesting EV's won't have brakes as we currently know them?

the batteries should be closed systems and not tinkered with.


?? What the? This whole thread is about those "closed systems" that were seriously "tinkered with" .......

Electric is the future whether you like it or not.


Yup and 8 tracks are coming back - not in your life time.

Get a grip on reality, while there is room for some well balanced 'Hybrids', you will never see all electric cars take over the mantle, for starters the World can't afford the infrastructure changes required.


#83 Magoo

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 16:53

I smell a big fat red herring. EVs don't need replace IC to have a tremendous future. These are two entirely different propositions.

Welcome to the Autosport Technical Forum, where nuclear aircraft make perfect sense but the electric automobile has no future at all. Here's the key to acceptance for any emerging technology in this mileau: Will it fit into a cracked pot? God love and keep the propellerheads. Reminds me of a great old Louis Jordan song...



#84 cheapracer

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 17:28

EVs don't need replace IC to have a tremendous future.

These are two entirely different propositions.


They don't and they are. I'll say it again, I see them everywhere everyday, thousands of them and you guys don't.

Undeniably awesome for dense inner city to cut noise and immediate pollution but I also walk into literally every shop in a city of 10 million and see 1, 2, 3 or 4 batteries being charge for the EV Scooters or the scooter/s themselves jammed up close to the front door or window with an extension lead running running from the shop to the scooter.

This takes time and effort to do especially lugging the battery into the shop and this is for tiny scooters with a range of about 50kms.

When I see this I can not relate to it ever translating to full sized cars in bulk numbers that have the same requirement - a handful here and there will be fine but it's not going to work on a grand scale without massive, unaffordable infrastructure changes.

Even if it becomes affordable, charging will take up parking spots and people will be encouraged to park their cars for many hours over what they actually require, planning ahead to waste time while charging occurs - Parking is a massive problem world wide now and getting worse by the day.

Edited by cheapracer, 17 November 2011 - 17:30.


#85 Bob Riebe

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 18:09

You are in a forum full of engineers and your grasp of basic engineering is the laughing stock here.

And engineers-- when it come to the world of economics for the consumer i.e. maintnenance, adaptability to varying climates, storage (without having to be continually linked to a power source to become mobile again) garaging in inclimate weather-- for vehicles for the mass consumer are a laughing stock most anywhere.

Most of the Never Land ideas being floated here are asinely inept on their best day.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 17 November 2011 - 18:11.


#86 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 18:11

Mechanical drive train losses are massive. I understand them. All that metal twisting, friction, being accelerated, decelerated, heated. Getting rid of them could be a 15-30% performance and efficiency boost. An electric motor power/weight ratio is far better than an IC engine in isolation. Fact. Take away the mechanical drive train and it's guaranteed to be a net weight loss. The batteries are currently the weight problem NOT electric power or drivetrain.

There's nothing wrong with preferring IC engines and the way things currently are, I just get frustrated when people believe the way things are cannot be improved upon. Anything can be improved. Look how much IC has been improved in only the last 5 years. EV is at the start of a long journey.



http://www.autoinsan...k-at-altwheels/

Saw one outside my office yesterday. Refreshing not having to stop talking to my colleague as it set off from the lights or choke on it's fumes. I bet the driver wasn't complaining either, all that changing from 1st to 2nd to 3rd in city traffic must be frustrating. Smooth flat uninterrupted torque. Mmm.

I know it's more of a PR thing for Staples ATM and probably is more expensive but that doesn't mean given higher adoption it will eventually meet parity with IC trucks.


So are you saying that the V8 engine in the XKRS would actually be delivering more power at the rear wheels if it was using electric transmission than even the present slushbox,torque converter,diff and drive shafts set up let alone if the thing was fitted with a proper clutch and gearbox etc and you think that the generator and electric motor/s package would be lighter than either the torque convertor/auto gearbox and diff/driveshaft package or a clutch/gearbox and diff/driveshaft package ???.

Can we have some figures showing the comparative power losses and weights please.

As for diesel electric,let alone battery powered electric trucks,yeah right I'll believe that any haulage company would be financially suicidal enough to use them on long distance over the road work in top weight semi outfits when I see it.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 17 November 2011 - 18:16.


#87 Bob Riebe

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 18:19

Sorry, you are stuck in what has and is being done with existing drive train technologies which need to be rethought. I'm thinking to the future and potential of having the wheel and electric motor as a combined unit amongst other things. Forget about unsprung weight arguments, materials and electrical engineering will solve that issue eventually. A correctly harnessed electric motor can provide masses more power and torque than any IC engine and do it more efficiently to boot. It's just being temporarily bottle necked. The person/company to solve this issue once and for all will blow the oil companies out of the water (If they aren't working for them already!).

After the car pulls into a garage, in winter, which is warm enough for snow and ice to melt, and the water gets into the electrical components-- will current following the water simply blow all the fuses or will salt in the water slowly corrode the components till motor kinda-sorta melts itself into a blob due to massive shorting-out of everything?
(and then the car catches fire and burns up)

#88 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 18:22

I smell a big fat red herring. EVs don't need replace IC to have a tremendous future. These are two entirely different propositions.

Welcome to the Autosport Technical Forum, where nuclear aircraft make perfect sense but the electric automobile has no future at all. Here's the key to acceptance for any emerging technology in this mileau: Will it fit into a cracked pot? God love and keep the propellerheads. Reminds me of a great old Louis Jordan song...



I think you'll find that the ones who think that nuclear/steam turbine powered aircraft make perfect sense are the same ones who'd think that ev's make perfect sense too. :rotfl:

#89 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 18:23

After the car pulls into a garage, in winter, which is warm enough for snow and ice to melt, and the water gets into the electrical components-- will current following the water simply blow all the fuses or will salt in the water slowly corrode the components till motor kinda-sorta melts itself into a blob due to massive shorting-out of everything?
(and then the car catches fire and burns up)



Hopefully yes it'll be the latter of the two scenarios. :rotfl:

Edited by Vanishing Point, 17 November 2011 - 18:24.


#90 carlt

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 18:52

I smell a big fat red herring. EVs don't need replace IC to have a tremendous future. These are two entirely different propositions.

Welcome to the Autosport Technical Forum, where nuclear aircraft make perfect sense but the electric automobile has no future at all. Here's the key to acceptance for any emerging technology in this mileau: Will it fit into a cracked pot? God love and keep the propellerheads. Reminds me of a great old Louis Jordan song...


F@ck me !! someone with a sensible post based on a sound thought process




Bob Riebe - EVs are shit where you live - valid point - I don't think any sane person would argue against you - can you now move on to thinking about the rest of the world and other people




The average distance for a journey in a car in the UK is 2 Miles - what is there about an EV that cant do this
Charging is suggested/proposed to take place in the home garage , or failing a Garage a street side charge point on your designated parking spot [ people LOVE having their own parking bay !! ]
There is no need to remove the batteries/power source
Top up charging in urban areas can be in/at car parks/parking bays - instead of a basic parking meter you have a charging meter to put your money/card in [ these are already being trialed ]
There is also ideas for battery pack swap outs at service stations etc where a charged pack is automatically installed while you have your coffee and muffin on the freeway halt

Its all a lot simpler than getting to the Moon - and I believe that has been achieved already

and as far as copper motor winding are concerned - anyone heard of permanent magnets http://www.lemcoltd.com/

Edited by carlt, 17 November 2011 - 18:55.


#91 carlt

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:07

Of course EVs are slow -
http://www.motorcycl...1-4-Record.aspx
http://www.currenteliminator.net/

#92 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:26

F@ck me !! someone with a sensible post based on a sound thought process




Bob Riebe - EVs are shit where you live - valid point - I don't think any sane person would argue against you - can you now move on to thinking about the rest of the world and other people




The average distance for a journey in a car in the UK is 2 Miles - what is there about an EV that cant do this



In which case why would Jaguar,Mercedes,BMW,Ferrari,Aston Martin etc etc bother with the production and sale of cars here capable of 180 mph + with around 200-300 mile range if no one wants to buy them because they only do an average of 2 miles per day.In which case the average mileage of secondhand cars would be less than 800 miles per year when it's more like 12,000.Typical use of irrelevant,incorrect statistics it's just that the global warming believers rely on more irrelevant,incorrect statistics to make their point than anyone else.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 17 November 2011 - 19:35.


#93 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:28

Of course EVs are slow -
http://www.motorcycl...1-4-Record.aspx
http://www.currenteliminator.net/


Definitely slow compared to 'proper' engined ones.


#94 carlt

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:32

In which case why would Jaguar,Mercedes,BMW,Ferrari,Aston Martin etc etc bother with the production of cars capable of 180 mph + if no one wants to buy them because they only do an average of 2 miles per day.In which case the average mileage of secondhand cars would be less than 800 miles per year when it's more like 12,000.As they say lies damned lies and then statistics it's just that the global warming believers rely on more statistics to make their point than anyone else.


I hear the sound of tiny feet - pitter patter, pitter patter.........................read my post properly before spouting your childish prattle

#95 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:38

I hear the sound of tiny feet - pitter patter, pitter patter.........................read my post properly before spouting your childish prattle


I did which is why I'm thinking about going into business running an ev battery station if you're right and then use the profits to run a 'proper' car. :rotfl:


#96 Magoo

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:47

After the car pulls into a garage, in winter, which is warm enough for snow and ice to melt, and the water gets into the electrical components-- will current following the water simply blow all the fuses or will salt in the water slowly corrode the components till motor kinda-sorta melts itself into a blob due to massive shorting-out of everything?
(and then the car catches fire and burns up)


This is a big concern for you? Really? Does the calendar on your wall say 1938? Do we have any idea how many electric motors and systems there are on a current IC automobile, and that if any one of them fail, the car will not start or run?

You remind me of my buddy Andrew who says, "independent front suspension is just a fad." How do you feel about these new-fangled hydraulic brakes?


#97 carlt

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 19:51

I did which is why I'm thinking about going into business running an ev battery station if you're right and then use the profits to run a 'proper' car. :rotfl:



You still havn't read it properly

and you have the lack of wit to miss quote me

which school do you go to -

#98 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 20:19

You still havn't read it properly

and you have the lack of wit to miss quote me



You did say that 'the average car journey' in the UK is 2 miles.

In which case there would need to be a lot of people using their cars,just for doing a lot of journeys per day,that just consist of an average distance of 2 miles,to produce an average mileage of 12,000 miles per year.


#99 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 20:35

This is a big concern for you? Really? Does the calendar on your wall say 1938? Do we have any idea how many electric motors and systems there are on a current IC automobile, and that if any one of them fail, the car will not start or run?

You remind me of my buddy Andrew who says, "independent front suspension is just a fad." How do you feel about these new-fangled hydraulic brakes?



Keeping the water out of the works isn't going to alter the basic inferiorities of electric cars compared to IC ones though which have always existed ever since it was found in the earliest days of car development that IC engines with mechanical transmission is more efficient than electrically powered/driven cars.

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#100 Bob Riebe

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 21:31

Bob Riebe - EVs are shit where you live - valid point - I don't think any sane person would argue against you - can you now move on to thinking about the rest of the world and other people

What truth hurts?

Never Land is not the rest of the world.

I would like to see a globe of the world in yours, above, or below, a certain latitude it would probably be black with large words saying: UNKNOW TERRITORIES- SCARY PLACES!

Apparently you think automobile companies feel that way also and that they will invest millions or billions to mass produce cars that are only suitable for a small part of the planet, with zero resalw value as electical parts, which are the major componenst of these vehicles wear out.
Now tell me which is most often changed in an automobile the alternator or the engine?

Now make a component that is far more stressed than a alternator the item on which the car is dependent to function, and tell me how any electric car is a better idea than an internal combustion engine anywhere? (OH yes, alternators can be carried in the trunk for extra assurance in case of failure. Can drive motors be carried there also?)

Edited by Bob Riebe, 18 November 2011 - 00:02.