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The harders you tries, the worsers it gets


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#101 Bob Riebe

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 21:39

This is a big concern for you? Really? Does the calendar on your wall say 1938? Do we have any idea how many electric motors and systems there are on a current IC automobile, and that if any one of them fail, the car will not start or run?

You remind me of my buddy Andrew who says, "independent front suspension is just a fad." How do you feel about these new-fangled hydraulic brakes?

I studied auto mechanics and know full well how important electronics are to automobiles.
When I drove GM cars I also carried the electronic component, that replace points in the distributor, and would go out with no warning, without which the car would go nowhere, and one time when I had a "professional" jump start a different car he put the clamps on the wrong terminals, frying the fusible link, made a jerry-rigged repair to get the car home so I could put a new one in.
(I even did a emergency repair on my alternator belt once with a line shaft drive-belt staple, in the middle of the night with a flash light to get home once.)

You are apparenly clue-less about how easily snow and ice can stop an IC car, much less an electric crapwagon.

I helped a woman whose engine bay was so packed with snow the car stopped and she could not get it going.

I am sure electric cars will just turn on the super-zoomy anti-ice and snow magic heaters to take care these problems.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 18 November 2011 - 00:03.


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#102 carlt

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 21:54

You did say that 'the average car journey' in the UK is 2 miles.

In which case there would need to be a lot of people using their cars,just for doing a lot of journeys per day,that just consist of an average distance of 2 miles,to produce an average mileage of 12,000 miles per year.



Exactly - Hurrah
a lot , a very lot of people, doing a lot , a very lot of journeys of a lot LESS than 2 miles


#103 carlt

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 22:01

What truth hurts?

Never Land is not the rest of the world.

I would like to see a glove of the world in yours, above, or below, a certain latitude it would probably be black with large words saying: UNKNOW TERRITORIES- SCARY PLACES!

Apparently you think automobile companies feel that way also and that they will invest millions or billions to mass produce cars that are only suitable for a small part of the planet, with zero resalw value as electical parts, which are the major componenst of these vehicles wear out.
Now tell me which is most often changed in an automobile the alternator or the engine?

Now make a component that is far more stressed than a alternator the item on which the car is dependent to function, and tell me how any electric car is a better idea than an internal combustion engine anywhere? (OH yes, alternators can be carried in the trunk for extra assurance in case of failure. Can drive motors be carried there also?)



You presume a hell of a lot about me - ?!


Have you thought your personal reasoning/perspective through ?
Have you looked at human demography , where is the highest population density for the Earth ? [ I would venture not in Brass Monkey Land !!! ]

#104 carlt

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 22:04

because they only do an average of 2 miles per day.In which case the average mileage of secondhand cars would be less than 800 miles per year when it's more like 12,000.Typical use of irrelevant,incorrect statistics it's just that the global warming believers rely on more irrelevant,incorrect statistics to make their point than anyone else.



Typical miss use of someone elses statistics to talk complete shite

#105 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 22:23

Exactly - Hurrah
a lot , a very lot of people, doing a lot , a very lot of journeys of a lot LESS than 2 miles



It would mean a lot more,than a 'very lot' of journeys,of a lot less than 2 miles,for those people's cars to all end up with an average of 12,000 miles per year on their odometers.


#106 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 22:25

Typical miss use of someone elses statistics to talk complete shite



Yeah right.So let's see exactly how many short 2 mile or less journeys,over the course of a year/month/day that it's going to take to put an average of 12,000 miles per year on the clock.

#107 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:10

Doesn't really answer my question though.

Whoops sorry, forgot your lack of basic engineering skills.

Lights - 200W
Heater - 2000W
AC - 2000W (Peak)
Electric drive motor 100,000W

Although these are peak figures in each case, the averages over a 12 month period would be similar, so a range reduction of perhaps 2-3% due to the heater. The AC is no different to IC vehicles - they have to burn fuel to run it too.

The energy consumption of the EV heater could probably be halved by simply making the AC unit reverse cycle.

#108 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:14

Have you thought your personal reasoning/perspective through ?
Have you looked at human demography , where is the highest population density for the Earth ? [ I would venture not in Brass Monkey Land !!! ]


Think the market for cars in North America,where you'd be surprised by just how much of it is brass monkey land every winter and as hot and humid as hell every summer,isn't exactly worth peanuts,while many other parts of the world aren't exactly a car sales goldmine.Which is probably what your ev will be worth on the used car market even in the relatively temperate climate of Britain let alone the North American one.

The developed North American economy would probably collapse without the present tried and tested IC powered road vehicle technology keeping the place moving every freezing winter and baking summer and take many other economies with it.Unless you know better and there's a plan to totally electrify the road systems of the whole of North America,Europe,Russia,and Asia to allow the use of trolley buses and electric cars running on cheap fixed cost electricity without reliance on batteries to keep them moving with the same performance and warm enough in winter and cool enough in Summer and in which electric componentry will be as efficient,reliable and relatively cheap as IC componentry of equivalent outputs.Unlike the stupid British government I think it would be more likely that OPEC and the US government would see sense and bring US petrol and diesel prices back to where they were before 1973 and closer to the present domestic Saudi prices and forget all about what the raving global warming believers want.If California doesn't like it then leave them to electrify the State and let them all drive ev's and then send all the believers there to join them.


#109 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:20

Sorry you are stuck with,and still don't seem to have understood,the basic difference and losses involved,between using an IC engine with proper mechanical transmisson (clutch,manual gearbox,propshaft,diff,driveshafts) v IC engine driving a generator to convert it's output into electricity which then feeds electric motors at the wheels.Nor do you seem to have taken into consideration the overall weight penalty of your generator and electric motor/s assuming that we're talking something like a Jaguar C-X16 which can actually match the continuous performance potential (not in 10 second bursts) of a 5 Litre XKRS,fitted with a 'proper' manual box,for the same fuel consumption,in the very near future.By the way exactly how heavy is your 'wheel/s and combined electric motor/s' going to be considering the power output at the rear wheels of the XKRS.

Sorry it is you who does not understand the engineering basics. Electric/mechanical conversion efficiency is very high, at leat 90%, so the overall efficiency (mech->elec->mech) will be at least 81% - not too far behind your average mechanical transmission. Then you must consider, you now have a fully variable transmission, so the IC engine can be run at its optimuum efficiency for any given power demand. Now the electric transmission is ahead on city cycle and not far behind on highway cycle.

So it is not efficiency that rules out the electric transmission - it is cost. Take an electric transmission, add some energy storage and bingo - you have a hybrid - expensive but definitely more energy efficient.

#110 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:27

And engineers-- when it come to the world of economics for the consumer i.e. maintnenance, adaptability to varying climates, storage (without having to be continually linked to a power source to become mobile again) garaging in inclimate weather-- for vehicles for the mass consumer are a laughing stock most anywhere.

Most of the Never Land ideas being floated here are asinely inept on their best day.

Where did you get the idea that engineers decide what goes into a road car?

#111 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:32

After the car pulls into a garage, in winter, which is warm enough for snow and ice to melt, and the water gets into the electrical components-- will current following the water simply blow all the fuses or will salt in the water slowly corrode the components till motor kinda-sorta melts itself into a blob due to massive shorting-out of everything?
(and then the car catches fire and burns up)

What nonsense. EV's need be no more sensitive to such influences than the electrics/electronics of any modern car.

#112 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:40

In which case why would Jaguar,Mercedes,BMW,Ferrari,Aston Martin etc etc bother with the production and sale of cars here capable of 180 mph + with around 200-300 mile range if no one wants to buy them because they only do an average of 2 miles per day.In which case the average mileage of secondhand cars would be less than 800 miles per year when it's more like 12,000.Typical use of irrelevant,incorrect statistics it's just that the global warming believers rely on more irrelevant,incorrect statistics to make their point than anyone else.

Most sane people would be looking at EVs as the every-day commute vehicle for the masses. No one here is saying the supercar market will be the first to be dominated by EV's. The fact that so many performance EV's are appearing is quite fascinating (and a complete contradiction of your nonsensical rants).

#113 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:42

Whoops sorry, forgot your lack of basic engineering skills.

The energy consumption of the EV heater could probably be halved by simply making the AC unit reverse cycle.


If reversing electrically powered aircon system means that you can get twice as much heat energy out than the electricity you put in then we'd all obviously throw our home domestic gas central heating systems out and use electric air con systems instead. :rotfl:


#114 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:44

You are apparenly clue-less about how easily snow and ice can stop an IC car, much less an electric crapwagon.

I helped a woman whose engine bay was so packed with snow the car stopped and she could not get it going.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You have just quoted a perfect example. She would have just driven off without any hassle if it was an EV.

#115 gruntguru

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:48

If reversing electrically powered aircon system means that you can get twice as much heat energy out than the electricity you put in then we'd all obviously throw our home domestic gas central heating systems out and use electric air con systems instead. :rotfl:

Then you had better start throwing. The typical reverse-cycle AC unit pumps 3 times as much heat energy int a room as it consumes in electrical energy.

#116 Vanishing Point

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 23:56

Sorry it is you who does not understand the engineering basics. Electric/mechanical conversion efficiency is very high, at leat 90%, so the overall efficiency (mech->elec->mech) will be at least 81% - not too far behind your average mechanical transmission. Then you must consider, you now have a fully variable transmission, so the IC engine can be run at its optimuum efficiency for any given power demand. Now the electric transmission is ahead on city cycle and not far behind on highway cycle.

So it is not efficiency that rules out the electric transmission - it is cost. Take an electric transmission, add some energy storage and bingo - you have a hybrid - expensive but definitely more energy efficient.


I think electric transmission is actually mech-elec.So you're saying that you can take the 500 hp + XKRS then fit it with a generator and electric motors at the rear wheels and end up with less power losses at the rear wheels and better fuel consumption and an overall lighter car than if the thing is fitted with a torque converter/auto box/diff/drive shaft or clutch/manual box/diff/drive shaft transmission.Why didn't Jaguar do that then instead of making the C-X16 and I'm in.When can we buy one. :rotfl:


#117 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 00:02

Then you had better start throwing. The typical reverse-cycle AC unit pumps 3 times as much heat energy int a room as it consumes in electrical energy.


So connect a power station to thousands/millions of the things then recycle the extra heat energy back into the boilers to generate more power than you put in. :rotfl:


#118 Bob Riebe

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 00:08

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You have just quoted a perfect example. She would have just driven off without any hassle if it was an EV.

How?
Be specific.

#119 carlt

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 00:09

Yeah right.So let's see exactly how many short 2 mile or less journeys,over the course of a year/month/day that it's going to take to put an average of 12,000 miles per year on the clock.


I don't know - my maths is shite
Why don't you work it out for us , make a change and be constructive instead of misquoting my statistics and then calling them lies

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#120 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 00:13

I don't know - my maths is shite


So's mine but I know it's going to take a lot more than 'a lot' of 2 mile journeys every day to end up with an average mileage of 12,000 miles per year.

#121 gruntguru

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 00:34

I think electric transmission is actually mech-elec.So you're saying that you can take the 500 hp + XKRS then fit it with a generator and electric motors at the rear wheels and end up with less power losses at the rear wheels and better fuel consumption and an overall lighter car than if the thing is fitted with a torque converter/auto box/diff/drive shaft or clutch/manual box/diff/drive shaft transmission.Why didn't Jaguar do that then instead of making the C-X16 and I'm in.When can we buy one. :rotfl:

Read the post again. It answers every one of your questions.

#122 gruntguru

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 00:36

How?
Be specific.

She would get in the car, turn the key, press the accelerator - the electric motor would drive the wheels - oblivious to the snow in the engine bay.

#123 gruntguru

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 00:39

So connect a power station to thousands/millions of the things then recycle the extra heat energy back into the boilers to generate more power than you put in. :rotfl:

Violates the first law of Thermodynamics.

Hint. The warm air from a RC Air Con is not hot enough to fire the boilers.

#124 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:16

F@ck me !! someone with a sensible post based on a sound thought process




Bob Riebe - EVs are shit where you live - valid point - I don't think any sane person would argue against you - can you now move on to thinking about the rest of the world and other people




The average distance for a journey in a car in the UK is 2 Miles - what is there about an EV that cant do this
Charging is suggested/proposed to take place in the home garage , or failing a Garage a street side charge point on your designated parking spot [ people LOVE having their own parking bay !! ]
There is no need to remove the batteries/power source
Top up charging in urban areas can be in/at car parks/parking bays - instead of a basic parking meter you have a charging meter to put your money/card in [ these are already being trialed ]
There is also ideas for battery pack swap outs at service stations etc where a charged pack is automatically installed while you have your coffee and muffin on the freeway halt

Its all a lot simpler than getting to the Moon - and I believe that has been achieved already

and as far as copper motor winding are concerned - anyone heard of permanent magnets http://www.lemcoltd.com/

Yeh, real clever you buy a car to drive to the shops and then buy another to go away for the weekend. A real clever greenie idea!!!
As for swap out battery packs, at the cost of those you would be unlikely to swap your new ones for someones 2 y/o ones. Let alone the labor involved in doing so.
And as Cheapie has pointed out the potential disaster of charging batteries on foyers and cords running everywhere is a disaster waiing to happen. Charge a battery and you emit gases, not nice in a closed building. And cords runnin g everywhere would not pass occ health and sfaety anywhere.Yet alone who is paying for the electricity.

Yes EVs really an asset to society!

#125 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:49

?? Many times, unavoidable, but I have no idea what that means, are you suggesting EV's won't have brakes as we currently know them?


Once engineers realise the full potential of electric drive of course wasteful friction brakes won't be needed, complete motor drive and braking will allow drive and regenerative braking all in the same system but that wasn't my point. It was that if there is an unsafe substance there are precautions to be taken that everyone knows about, brake fluid being one. Same way you don't bust open batteries and you are careful with them.

Get a grip on reality, while there is room for some well balanced 'Hybrids', you will never see all electric cars take over the mantle, for starters the World can't afford the infrastructure changes required.


There will obviously always be a place for IC but once the full potential of EV is realised (a long, long way off) it will replace IC in most uses.

EV is at the start of a long life cycle. IC has peaked, it's been the lowest hanging fruit for so long that there was no need to develop EV as a competitor. The need and reward for alternatives is growing though. Once the critical mass for change in the market has taken place and engineers have made it cost effective and practical enough it will take over.

It's funny we talk about limited range of EVs as they currently are and it's a good point (for now) but there is coming a point for many people where they are being range limited on the price of petrol. Here in the UK some people are spending 20% of their income on fuel for work. It's insane. A natural progression of increased fuel costs will inevitably start to limit people's range anyway. They will start working closer to home, travelling less. This is happening now and it can only play into the hands of super efficient short range vehicles such as EVs. Think where we'll be in 20 years time when petrol will probably be £3-5 a litre.

You guys like the McLaren F1 road car? Did you like the McLarens Senna drove to his title's? I bet you do and I bet you hold the guy who designed them in high regard. Look what he's doing now: http://gordonmurraydesign.com/ The man is not an idiot. The writing is on the wall. Change can be good. You don't have to be flat earthers about all this.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 18 November 2011 - 10:05.


#126 gruntguru

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:11

Get a grip on reality, while there is room for some well balanced 'Hybrids', you will never see all electric cars take over the mantle, for starters the World can't afford the infrastructure changes required.

Never? That's a big prediction - but a very short sighted one. I'll make one - "Horseless carriages? Will never catch on!"

Infrastructure? Pah. Recharging infrastructure (and I'm talking about public recharging, not private) is cheaper than fuel distribution infrastructure. Cheaper to build new recharging infrastructure than replace ageing refuelling infrastructure. Cheaper to operate too - swipe credit card, plug car in - no need for console operators, bowsers, underground tanks, fire extinguishers, . . . .

Edited by gruntguru, 18 November 2011 - 10:12.


#127 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:01

Violates the first law of Thermodynamics.

Hint. The warm air from a RC Air Con is not hot enough to fire the boilers.



But millions of heaters putting out 2 kW of heat energy each is going to make the water a lot hotter if you use it to pre heat it before putting it into the boilers in which case you'll be saving a fortune in coal/gas to heat the water from cold .

Hint.Put a million air con plants,giving out 2 kW of heat each,in your car and see how hot it gets in there after they've been running for a few hours and the good news is that the more you use the more you save. :rotfl:

I think your idea violates all of the laws which say you can't get more energy out than you put in unless you're using a nuclear fusion reactor to power the car.

#128 24gerrard

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:03

All you need in an EV to give a decent range is a range extender.
Fuel cell technology can do it today using hydrogen, ethanol or even LPG, its all out there people.
No need whatsoever for obsolete ic engines.
The ONLY thing holding back a major change to EVs is the cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gordon Murray knows this so watch his space.

Just give us the investment and watch what can be done.

Edited by 24gerrard, 18 November 2011 - 11:07.


#129 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:08

[quote name='Lee Nicolle' date='Nov 18 2011, 09:16' post='5405358']
Yeh, real clever you buy a car to drive to the shops and then buy another to go away for the weekend. A real clever greenie idea!!!
As for swap out battery packs, at the cost of those you would be unlikely to swap your new ones for someones 2 y/o ones. Let alone the labor involved in doing so.
And as Cheapie has pointed out the potential disaster of charging batteries on foyers and cords running everywhere is a disaster waiing to happen. Charge a battery and you emit gases, not nice in a closed building. And cords runnin g everywhere would not pass occ health and sfaety anywhere.Yet alone who is paying for the electricity.

Yes EVs really an asset to society!
[/quote

I think what the control freak governments are hoping is that you won't own the battteries as part of the car at all you're only paying to use them.In which case expect at least the equivalent of paying around £6 + per gallon for petrol after profit for the charged battery providers and taxes with regular 20% price increases if our government and domestic electricity providers are any guide.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 18 November 2011 - 11:21.


#130 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:10

All you need in an EV to give a decent range is a range extender.
Fuel cell technology can do it today using hydrogen, ethanol or even LPG, its all out there people.
No need whatsoever for obsolete ic engines.
The ONLY thing holding back a major change to EVs is the cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gordon Murray knows this so watch his space.

Just give us the investment and watch what can be done.


No thanks I'd prefer to put the money into something safe like a bank. :rotfl:


#131 24gerrard

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:14

But millions of heaters putting out 2 kW of heat energy each is going to make the water a lot hotter if you use it to pre heat it before putting it into the boilers in which case you'll be saving a fortune in coal/gas to heat the water from cold .

Hint.Put a million air con plants,giving out 2 kW of heat each,in your car and see how hot it gets in there after they've been running for a few hours and the good news is that the more you use the more you save. :rotfl:

I think your idea violates all of the laws which say you can't get more energy out than you put in unless you're using a nuclear fusion reactor to power the car.


I use heat exchangers on all my waste hot water drains. With superb insulation it saves about 25 percent of my house heating costs.
The solar panels keep the temp up for no cost most of the time until the heat pumps kick in.
I think it would have to be 25 below freezing outside for the reserve oil central heating to come on.
You guys can carry on wasting energy if you like, I will save my money thanks.
I think I will instal another wind turbine soon and a swimming pool.

Oh yea, sorry of subject a bit there. Pre heating or air conning an electric car from the mains after charging will last for at least five miles without any input from the on board batteries. Far better than sitting in an obsolete IC powered vehicle for the same distance either freezing or bakeing.

#132 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:15

Read the post again. It answers every one of your questions.


No it doesn't.I'll ask again would using electric transmission (generator and electric motors at the rear wheels) on a Jaguar XKRS,instead of mechanical transmission (torque converter/auto box or clutch/gearbox,diff,drive shafts),make it a faster,lighter,more economical car ???.Yes or no.


#133 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:19

I use heat exchangers on all my waste hot water drains. With superb insulation it saves about 25 percent of my house heating costs.
The solar panels keep the temp up for no cost most of the time until the heat pumps kick in.
I think it would have to be 25 below freezing outside for the reserve oil central heating to come on.
You guys can carry on wasting energy if you like, I will save my money thanks.
I think I will instal another wind turbine soon and a swimming pool.

Oh yea, sorry of subject a bit there. Pre heating or air conning an electric car from the mains after charging will last for at least five miles without any input from the on board batteries. Far better than sitting in an obsolete IC powered vehicle for the same distance either freezing or bakeing.


You'd save a lot mor than that if you're using loads of reversed air con plants that give out 3 times as much heat energy into the rooms as the amount of electricity you put in.


#134 Spoofski

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:53

All you need in an EV to give a decent range is a range extender.
Fuel cell technology can do it today using hydrogen, ethanol or even LPG, its all out there people.
No need whatsoever for obsolete ic engines.
The ONLY thing holding back a major change to EVs is the cost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gordon Murray knows this so watch his space.

Just give us the investment and watch what can be done.

The very best fuel cells are only 60% efficient. Add up the losses into and out of the battery, converter and regulator and you are as well just burning the stuff in an IC engine. So your range extender will become an IC engine and you end up with a Prius or Volt.

Hydrogen is hopelessly inefficient and difficult to handle both in its production and storage.





#135 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 13:26

Hydrogen is hopelessly inefficient and difficult to handle both in its production and storage.


Think it takes more electricity to produce Hydrogen from water than the energy content of the Hydrogen produced ? .The global warming believer's ideas are just based on having an expensive,dangerous nuclear energy powered world.


#136 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 13:32

Another fact that people seem oblivious to is the environmental impact of the oil industry infrastructure even way before it's even been pumped into an IC powered car:

- Extraction (anyone live near the gulf of mexico?)

- Refinement (massive energy consumption and pollution)

- Distribution (more pollution due to transport of refined product)

These need to be offset against the extra emissions from power stations that would be generated by charging EVs.

Any arguments against infrastructure required for EV is simply laughable. A plug and wire? The infrastructure is already there, every street and building have mains electricity hooked up and the power stations are there already.

EDIT: Agree on hydrogen. The production process makes refined petrol production look efficient.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 18 November 2011 - 13:32.


#137 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 13:42

Another fact that people seem oblivious to is the environmental impact of the oil industry infrastructure even way before it's even been pumped into an IC powered car:

- Extraction (anyone live near the gulf of mexico?)

- Refinement (massive energy consumption and pollution)

- Distribution (more pollution due to transport of refined product)

These need to be offset against the extra emissions from power stations that would be generated by charging EVs.

Any arguments against infrastructure required for EV is simply laughable. A plug and wire? The infrastructure is already there, every street and building have mains electricity hooked up and the power stations are there already.


So all that's needed is for all the believers to go out there with their money and build some cars with the exactly the same performance and range and ease of fuelling as the full range of available IC ones and wonder if you'll be as keen when your domestic electricity costs and taxes increase to match those of British petrol prices.


#138 24gerrard

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 13:53

There are efficient fuel cells available for not only Hydrogen but ethanol (from plant sugar) and even LPG (from natural gas).
They all convert the fuel more efficiently to electricity for use by an electric motor than any burning device.

Please explain how electricity prices can ever equal petrol prices?
I think that suggestion is the silliest yet.
I generate my own so how do they charge me?

#139 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 14:31

There are efficient fuel cells available for not only Hydrogen but ethanol (from plant sugar) and even LPG (from natural gas).
They all convert the fuel more efficiently to electricity for use by an electric motor than any burning device.

Please explain how electricity prices can ever equal petrol prices?
I think that suggestion is the silliest yet.
I generate my own so how do they charge me?



Almost 70% of the £6.00 + per gallon that we pay for petrol/road diesel is tax.The government refuse to lower that tax because they say that they can't afford the revenue losses.In which case if we make a large scale changeover to electricity to power cars instead it's obvious that the tax would be put on electricity.However unlike road diesel and red diesel there's no way of differentiating car use electricity from domestic use.In which case it's obvious that there's no way that they will allow electricity to be used in road vehicles on a large scale basis without applying the equivalent tax and because there's no way of differentiating home use and road use it's ovious that road fuel duty would be applied to all electricity use just as petrol is when used in a home petrol generator or lawn mower.

As I've said it's getting to the point even at present prices where it's cheaper to use home diesel generated power even at expensive,although lower tax rated,red diesel prices.So what do you think would happen in the case of widespread changover to electric cars when the electricity suppliers have a near monopoly of both road and domestic fuel supplies and when the government need to get their tax revenues just the same as now.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 18 November 2011 - 15:34.


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#140 carlt

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 15:35

1 .Yeh, real clever you buy a car to drive to the shops and then buy another to go away for the weekend. A real clever greenie idea!!!

2.As for swap out battery packs, at the cost of those you would be unlikely to swap your new ones for someones 2 y/o ones. Let alone the labor involved in doing so.

3.And as Cheapie has pointed out the potential disaster of charging batteries on foyers and cords running everywhere is a disaster waiing to happen. Charge a battery and you emit gases, not nice in a closed building. And cords runnin g everywhere would not pass occ health and sfaety anywhere.Yet alone who is paying for the electricity.

Yes EVs really an asset to society!


1.- so many 1 car families these days aren't there ?

2.-of course lease hire doesn't exist

3.-I'd hate to see your house , all those extension leads running everywhere , for all your appliances and lights

Open your eyes man - all those dangerous gases your phone/laptop etc emit when you plug the charger in ?



#141 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 15:39

Open your eyes man - all those dangerous gases your phone/laptop etc emit when you plug the charger in ?


The ev fans make enough erroneous issues about dangerous gases too,like all those so called 'dangerous gases' I've breathed in since the 1950's but I'm still alive and kicking.

Edited by Vanishing Point, 18 November 2011 - 18:07.


#142 carlt

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 17:23

All those so called 'dangerous gases' I've breathed in since the 1950's but I'm still alive and kicking.If the global warming believers can't get what they want by scaring everyone with their planetry inferno ideas they'll try 'dangerous gases' instead to see if that works.



You really are a complete Knob aren't you !

It was a sarcastic reply to a previous post about dangerous gasses emitted while charging EVs [ see my quote in my post 140 and numbered responses to Lees post 124 ? ]

#143 Vanishing Point

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 18:08

You really are a complete Knob aren't you !

It was a sarcastic reply to a previous post about dangerous gasses emitted while charging EVs [ see my quote in my post 140 and numbered responses to Lees post 124 ? ]


Edited the mistake now.But the point still remains.


#144 24gerrard

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 18:32

The very best fuel cells are only 60% efficient. Add up the losses into and out of the battery, converter and regulator and you are as well just burning the stuff in an IC engine. So your range extender will become an IC engine and you end up with a Prius or Volt.

Hydrogen is hopelessly inefficient and difficult to handle both in its production and storage.


Hmmm? Just add a few more solar cells. :clap:

#145 Magoo

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 19:31

Ideally, this thread might be re-purposed as a dedicated Vanishing Point vs. 24gerrard discussion. For their exclusive and unlimited use only, no others allowed. I think this could be a big win for everyone.

#146 Tony Matthews

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 19:36

Amen.

#147 Greg Locock

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 20:04

I'd assumed one was a sock puppet of the other, in which one hand made ridiculous statements and the other used a refutation of these to make ironclad arguments. I'm not sure which is which though.

#148 24gerrard

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 20:21

I'd assumed one was a sock puppet of the other, in which one hand made ridiculous statements and the other used a refutation of these to make ironclad arguments. I'm not sure which is which though.


If you dont know Greg then perhaps you should study harder.
I think the problem starts with having spent so much time locked into obsolete technology.
I know it is difficult to see the future from such narrow confines but if you tried just that little bit harder.
I am sure there would be a place for you after the changes.

I am certain Tony could draw pretty pictures of it, whatever it is, so I cant see his problem.

Edited by 24gerrard, 18 November 2011 - 20:23.


#149 Bob Riebe

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 20:57

She would get in the car, turn the key, press the accelerator - the electric motor would drive the wheels - oblivious to the snow in the engine bay.

Hmm, do electrc motors not need cooling? Does cups of water immersing an electric motor not affect it ?(but then this would cool the motor, of course if anyone has ever witnessed the vapour barrier between a glass electric range-top and water that was on the bottom of a pot or pan, one knows water works in mysterious ways.) Does not the salt that was heaving blended in with the snow not affect electronic connections? Does not cold weather- this sub-twenty degree F day, affect how far a electric crapwagon can go? Would not, if she could find an outlet to plug into, the water that would freeze, in the engine bay, in the hours it would take to recharge affect an electric motor?

You are blowing smoke with your electric vehicle just motoring down the road.
One of the major items blowing holes in your smoke screen is people with IC engines if they get careless and spend hours in a snowbank, can leave the engine running or start and restart the engine, usuallly, to stay warm. How many minutes before the person in their electric crapwagon start freezing?
The real smart ones who carry a full gas can in the trunk can even refuel.
I wonder- do they make extension cords that are miles long?

#150 24gerrard

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 21:04

Hmm, do electrc motors not need cooling? Does cups of water immersing an electric motor not affect it ?(but then this would cool the motor, of course if anyone has ever witnessed the vapour barrier between a glass electric range-top and water that was on the bottom of a pot or pan, one knows water works in mysterious ways.) Does not the salt that was heaving blended in with the snow not affect electronic connections? Does not cold weather- this sub-twenty degree F day, affect how far a electric crapwagon can go? Would not, if she could find an outlet to plug into, the water that would freeze, in the engine bay, in the hours it would take to recharge affect an electric motor?

You are blowing smoke with your electric vehicle just motoring down the road.
One of the major items blowing holes in your smoke screen is people with IC engines if they get careless and spend hours in a snowbank, can leave the engine running or start and restart the engine, usuallly, to stay warm. How many minutes before the person in their electric crapwagon start freezing?
The real smart ones who carry a full gas can in the trunk can even refuel.
I wonder- do they make extension cords that are miles long?


More efficient just to use the batteries to operate a heater element.
In anycase, what ever energy source you have, it will run out at some time and how many people have ic engined vehicle fuel tanks always full?
In the present economic climate and with current fuel costs, I would guess that few have more than about £20 worth in the tank at any one time.
Far more likely the EV is fully charged at 2p a mile.