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2012 FIA/ACO World Endurance Championship


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#51 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 13:38

will it only take part in LeMans?


It doesn't conform to regs for any series, so yes.

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#52 Victor_RO

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 14:18

I wonder what is going on with the DeltaWing Project.Any news when we see the car driven in real?And will it only take part in LeMans?


Rumour has it that it may turn up at Sebring for a few demo laps beforehand. But yes, the car will only race at Le Mans.

#53 Risil

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 20:41

I wonder what is going on with the DeltaWing Project.Any news when we see the car driven in real?And will it only take part in LeMans?


Is anyone half-expecting them to take the car out of the garage for the first lap of practice, only then to realise that the doubters were right and the car can't actually turn tight corners after all? :lol:

Edited by Risil, 14 February 2012 - 20:42.


#54 King Six

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 20:52

It's going to probably be the slowest car on the grid by far, I don't even think fuel efficiency will save it. But it's nice to see something interesting happen once in awhile

#55 Victor_RO

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 21:00

It's going to probably be the slowest car on the grid by far, I don't even think fuel efficiency will save it. But it's nice to see something interesting happen once in awhile


It will be the ultimate test of their PR, they claim the car is capable of better pace than LMP2 cars (someone even said something about a LM target laptime of 3:37, and last year's fastest LMP2s couldn't crack 3:40).

The amount of vitriol and hatred towards the Delta Wing in other places on the Web however is quite staggering, it shocked me more than the car itself.

#56 King Six

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 21:05

It will be the ultimate test of their PR, they claim the car is capable of better pace than LMP2 cars (someone even said something about a LM target laptime of 3:37, and last year's fastest LMP2s couldn't crack 3:40).

The amount of vitriol and hatred towards the Delta Wing in other places on the Web however is quite staggering, it shocked me more than the car itself.

Yeah it's weird, I don't see why people are willing to go as far as hate something like this. Me personally I find it very interesting because it's all new and shiny, but even if you don't, you don't have to hate it.

#57 Risil

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 21:15

The amount of vitriol and hatred towards the Delta Wing in other places on the Web however is quite staggering, it shocked me more than the car itself.


Indeed. It perhaps gives us younger chaps (or in fact just those of us not based in Indiana) some idea of the shock and surprise a little rear-engined car at the Indy 500 must've caused. However it doesn't have the fallback position of affronts-to-traditionalists that it's plainly a quicker and better concept than what's gone before. It might be quicker on the track, but it needs its own special rulebook guest entry.

It makes us consider the artificiality and narrowness of the design opportunities left open to modern race teams though. The Schoenberg of sportscar racing. :drunk:

Edited by Risil, 14 February 2012 - 21:17.


#58 Meanstreak

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 17:09

Some amendments to the sporting regulations; one car instead of two scores points (best finisher) and 6 of the 8 races counts towards the championship.

http://www.planetlem...spice-up-lm-p1/

Obviosly tailor made for Toyota. Hopefully only temporary and back to the original rules for 2013.

#59 anbeck

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 00:52

Some amendments to the sporting regulations; one car instead of two scores points (best finisher) and 6 of the 8 races counts towards the championship.

http://www.planetlem...spice-up-lm-p1/

Obviosly tailor made for Toyota. Hopefully only temporary and back to the original rules for 2013.


I'm okay with everything that gets us closer to the golden days!

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#60 Rob

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:11

Speaking of the Delta Wing, here's the latest iteration...

http://www.lemans.or...hitti_6231.html

I'm very enthusiastic about the concept. I think this thing is going to be rapid.

Edited by Rob, 16 February 2012 - 11:21.


#61 Fourjays

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 13:44

First I've heard of the DeltaWing... interesting concept and I'll definitely be interested to see how it goes at LeMans. :) No idea why so many would be against someone trying something new. :/

#62 pingu666

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 16:25

it was started off as a replacement to the old indycar. it didnt win the contest so we get another dallara which seems to disapoint me more the more i find out about it.



#63 Victor_RO

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 19:10

https://www.facebook...100000983716540

Strakka Racing's HPD shaken down at Snetterton before heading to Sebring. With... transparent shark fin? :lol: Didn't we once have this debate when it came to F1 shark fins, and it turned out to be an optical illusion?

#64 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 19:52

I tried to find the thread again recently, when one of the pics of the Ferrari had a similar reflection.

#65 pingu666

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 19:57

the new? headlights look awful :/


#66 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 20:13

They are odd, preferable to the Toyota ones though...

#67 Risil

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 23:57

Not as transparent as I'd hoped. :lol:

#68 Meanstreak

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 19:08

http://www.facebook....8...6540&type=3

:confused:

Edited by Meanstreak, 18 February 2012 - 19:09.


#69 Victor_RO

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 19:11

I still say trick reflections, carbon fiber (painted as well) can't really be transparent... it's like putting a mirror in the middle of a symmetrical object.

#70 HaydenFan

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:52

http://www.facebook....8...&permPage=1

You see the guardrail in this one.

Did the rules state it must be carbon fiber?

#71 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:08

First I've heard of the DeltaWing... interesting concept and I'll definitely be interested to see how it goes at LeMans. :) No idea why so many would be against someone trying something new. :/

Maybe they are of the opinion that there is a reason why cars (especially racing cars) have the wheels at the corners and are usually as wide as possible...

http://upload.wikime...oon_England.jpg

:)

"Sometimes computers can leg you up pretty badly," Bowlby remarks. "So I ran down to Hobbytown USA in Castleton here in Indianapolis. It's a great model shop and I bought two suitable high-performance, radio-controlled model cars. I modified one of them to have a single front wheel with the weight distribution that it looked like we needed from a simulation standpoint. I compared a conventional four-wheeled car to this Delta shaped three-wheeler and the three-wheeler was extraordinarily good. What we had seen in simulation actually worked in reality.

"Every aircraft after that ended up having the main undercarriage widely-spaced and placed further rearwards with a single nosewheel so you could haul on the anchors and have a stable condition under braking. Certainly we found under simulation that's exactly what you end up with--a very stable car under braking. So suddenly we had a car that out-accelerates and outbrakes the current car."

http://gordonkirby.c...t_is_no222.html


Maybe they will indeed win Le Mans by 10 laps and everyone else is wrong. That would be very interesting to see such a revolution in motoring happen on the back of such a revolutionary insight. :)

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 19 February 2012 - 04:15.


#72 Victor_RO

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 18:26

http://travel.nation...porting-events/

Obviously, some mistakes done in mentioning Le Mans (no street cars, unless you want to call a fully-fledged GTE car a "street car", and 56 cars at the start, not 46), but good to see that Le Mans has been put at the top of a top-ten list of sporting events worldwide. If it has been posted before, my apologies.

#73 Rob

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 09:18

Maybe they are of the opinion that there is a reason why cars (especially racing cars) have the wheels at the corners and are usually as wide as possible...


But if you have a very large proportion of the mass over the back of the car then the front wheels have very little inertia and will become much more responsive. Not only that but you can also out-accelerate the other cars because you've got more load over the driven wheels. This configuration also gives more stability under braking.

#74 SonnyViceR

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 13:02

I know this is kinda off topic again but there's another addition to the ALMS grid!

It is but the ALMS GT2 grid should still look great

Confirmed
2x P&M Corvette
2x ESM Ferrari
2x FL Porsche
1x Falken Porsche
1x PMR Porsche
2x RLL BMW
1x AJR Lotus Evora (from Long Beach onwards)

Likely / partial season
0-1x Risi Ferrari (only Sebring confirmed at this stage but full campaign still possible)
0-1x Krohn Ferrari (some rounds maybe)
0-2x AMR Vantage (some rounds maybe)

Maybe?
0-2x Robertson Ford (???)
0-1x West Lambo (???)
0-1x extra Falken Porsche (???)
0-? converted Audi R8 LMS (???)

Sebring-only (as part of WEC)
2x AFC Ferrari
1x Luxury Ferrari
1x Felbermayr Porsche
1x AMR Vantage
+7 cars in separate GTE-AM

Dead
RSR Jaguar
Abruzzi


Edited by SonnyViceR, 21 February 2012 - 13:10.


#75 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 18:19

http://www.facebook....8...&permPage=1

You see the guardrail in this one.


It's a reflection of the one on the other side, it doesn't follow the same path as the one behind it.

#76 King Six

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:35

No comments on the 6 hours of Spa that started just now? It's raining too, folks.

You can watch for free

Edited by King Six, 05 May 2012 - 12:36.


#77 dau

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 13:17

Timing doesn't work for me for some reason. But that Dome looks pretty good at the moment. Went around those Rebellions as if they were GTs.

#78 DanardiF1

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 14:42

Just catching up having been at work... how dumb is Chandhok?

#79 jamiegc

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 15:08

Just catching up having been at work... how dumb is Chandhok?


He's useless. And some people genuinely believe he should be in F1

Hartley absolutely flying in LMP2. 5 seconds per lap faster than anyone else.

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#80 DanardiF1

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 15:15

He's useless. And some people genuinely believe he should be in F1

Hartley absolutely flying in LMP2. 5 seconds per lap faster than anyone else.


Totally agree there. No doubt he'll bring up some stupid excuse like he did when he binned the Lotus last year at Melbourne.

Hartley is looking good, there's a decent career in sportscars to be had if he wants it.

#81 dau

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 15:42

He's useless. And some people genuinely believe he should be in F1

Hartley absolutely flying in LMP2. 5 seconds per lap faster than anyone else.

He was pretty fast for someone useless. Yea, the mistakes were stupid, but the conditions were difficult and even McNish put his e-tron in the gravel.

Hope the Dome can recover with Minassian.

Edited by dau, 05 May 2012 - 15:47.


#82 jamiegc

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 16:23

He was pretty fast for someone useless. Yea, the mistakes were stupid, but the conditions were difficult and even McNish put his e-tron in the gravel.

Hope the Dome can recover with Minassian.


Chandhok was lapping 2 seconds a lap slower in an LMP1 car than Hartley in an LMP2 :lol:

#83 Dan333SP

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 19:11

Looking at the qualifying times and the best race laps, it seems the ACO has finally nailed the diesel/petrol equalization!!! :up: :up: :up:










Not even close. What a joke. :rolleyes:

#84 hunnylander

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 19:18

This is a very nice and entertaining championship ran behind Audi safety cars.

#85 Red17

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 19:31

Looking at the qualifying times and the best race laps, it seems the ACO has finally nailed the diesel/petrol equalization!!! :up: :up: :up:










Not even close. What a joke. :rolleyes:

Only equalizer at this point is something close to last year's Lemans.

#86 GX390

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 21:06

Yeah but the only factory LMP1's were Audi's. It should be interesting to see how Toyota performs at the 24 considering they've completely redesigned the front of there car.

#87 ArnageWRC

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 21:21

I thought it was an intriguing race, rather than an exciting one. Hat off to Audi, all cars finished - so that is quite something. A few points:

In the wet early part of the race, the e-tron Quattros just waltzed away - which was impressive. However, it seems that they are wearing their tyres more heavily....which is why the Toyota will have it's hybrid system through the rear wheels. And has already been said, the balance of performance of petrol v diesel.......6 years on, and they can't get it right.

However, roll on Le Mans test day....and then the big one itself, and another Audi win. Not sure it's great for the sport mind you...



#88 DanardiF1

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:12

I thought it was an intriguing race, rather than an exciting one. Hat off to Audi, all cars finished - so that is quite something. A few points:

In the wet early part of the race, the e-tron Quattros just waltzed away - which was impressive. However, it seems that they are wearing their tyres more heavily....which is why the Toyota will have it's hybrid system through the rear wheels. And has already been said, the balance of performance of petrol v diesel.......6 years on, and they can't get it right.

However, roll on Le Mans test day....and then the big one itself, and another Audi win. Not sure it's great for the sport mind you...


It's not just a question of petrol vs diesel and equalisation, just look at the Audi's aero package compared to it's nearest 'challenger' the Rebellion Lola. They're worlds apart, like the difference between the Red Bull RB8 and the HRT F112. Lola are a great constructor and have built a fantastic car for Rebellion, but they're not at manufacturer levels of spending and Audi are just able to make a better complete car.

I hope Toyota have got their car in shape, because with their expertise and level of spending they can't be ruled out for a good Le Mans, even with the 'lesser' petrol engine... the aero certainly looks promising, and they have a driver lineup that's capable of running with Audi.

#89 dau

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 15:43

Chandhok was lapping 2 seconds a lap slower in an LMP1 car than Hartley in an LMP2 :lol:

That's weird, because the few times i checked the live timing, he was matching the lap times of the Rebellions. The RLM guys even mentioned him being on a pretty good recovery drive.

#90 GX390

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 18:34

I thought it was an intriguing race, rather than an exciting one. Hat off to Audi, all cars finished - so that is quite something. A few points:

In the wet early part of the race, the e-tron Quattros just waltzed away - which was impressive. However, it seems that they are wearing their tyres more heavily....which is why the Toyota will have it's hybrid system through the rear wheels. And has already been said, the balance of performance of petrol v diesel.......6 years on, and they can't get it right.

However, roll on Le Mans test day....and then the big one itself, and another Audi win. Not sure it's great for the sport mind you...


What is the date of the test?

#91 Victor_RO

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 19:24

What is the date of the test?


June 3, 2 weeks before the race. Back to the more recently-traditional date after last year, when they had the test day on Easter weekend in April... 8 hours of running as far as I'm aware, 4-4 with a lunch break in the middle.

#92 Red17

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 22:08

Racecar Engineering ran a new article on the 2014 LMP. One bit is disturbing:

Specifically it has been made clear that the new generation of Formula 1 V6 engines could be installed

http://www.racecar-e...ans-prototypes/

#93 onewingedangel

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 23:42

Seems like a good move to me, and you have to wonder who pushed for it to be implemented.

A joint WEC/F1 engine project spreads the cost and allows F1 engine suppliers to supply engines to WEC teams, and possibly get some extra testing - but also allows an engine developed to the standards primarily for the WEC (Audi/Porsche, Honda or Toyota) to be supplied as a customer F1 engine.

And in terms of longevity the V6 turbos are being designed to last 5 full F1 race weekends each - so surviving a continuous 12-24 hour race is quite a reasonable expectation.

#94 Victor_RO

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:14

It's an old article and more or less speculation at this point. Engine regulations are free within the fuel flow limit, but only that article picked up on the possibility of F1 engines being theoretically allowed in LMP1.

To be honest, I don't want it to happen. If someone purposefully puts that into the regulations (which they HAVEN'T), it's a return to the early 1990s when cynical attempts were made to siphon away manufacturers from sportscars and into F1, killing Group C in the process. With the costs involved, it won't be like the 1970s when lots of teams were able to buy Cosworth DFVs to slot into their Group 6 cars, detune them and go racing at Le Mans.

#95 Trickydicky

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:59

It's an old article and more or less speculation at this point. Engine regulations are free within the fuel flow limit, but only that article picked up on the possibility of F1 engines being theoretically allowed in LMP1.

To be honest, I don't want it to happen. If someone purposefully puts that into the regulations (which they HAVEN'T), it's a return to the early 1990s when cynical attempts were made to siphon away manufacturers from sportscars and into F1, killing Group C in the process. With the costs involved, it won't be like the 1970s when lots of teams were able to buy Cosworth DFVs to slot into their Group 6 cars, detune them and go racing at Le Mans.


Granted, everytime the FIA/FISA/whoever has tried to change sportscar rules to allow use of F1 engines (1968, 1972, 1990/91) it has fell completely flat on its arse and ruined sportscar racing (or you could argue that the 68 rule changes prompted the 917 and 512's, ushering in a goldern era), but, if it meant that Ferrari came back (which it probably wouldn't) then i'd be well up for it. It would be interesting if someone went for a big 5.0 V12 and pitted it against a 1.6 V6, just out of curiosity.

Whatever they do agree on, they need to get someone to build LMP1's because there will only be 7 at the Silverstone 6 Hours. I know Porsche are joing in in 2014, and Audi reckon they will stay on but I can't see Audi and Porsche going toe to toe for longer than 1 year, it would just be a waste of VW's money that they would be unlikely to overlook. If this did mean Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes bult LMP1's, even if they were only secondary to their F1 efforts, it couldn't hurt.

Another way you could look at it is the ACO are French, there are no French entries, Renault are French, the ACO spoke to them, Renault said we don't want to develop another type of engine, the ACO adapted the rules to suit. It wouldn't be unheard of.

Edited by Trickydicky, 09 August 2012 - 12:02.


#96 Meanstreak

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:24

A bit stupidly written article, because it just picks up some selected stuff. Everything that was made public in June can be read from this presentation:

http://www.lemans.or...lation_2014.pdf

I don't think there is really anything especially favouring F1 V6s. While the engines in both categories might be going in the same direction, I doubt you can just tune F1 V6 and win Le Mans with it instead of a completely bespoke solution. I think the possibility might be more attactive for private teams, incase Pure or someone else ever actually builds engines.

Posted Image

Edited by Meanstreak, 18 August 2012 - 01:33.


#97 Meanstreak

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:39

It would be interesting if someone went for a big 5.0 V12 and pitted it against a 1.6 V6, just out of curiosity.

I like that it's at least possible in theory, but if you consider those draconian limits I just posted... it wouldn't be a very exciting race.

I know Porsche are joing in in 2014, and Audi reckon they will stay on but I can't see Audi and Porsche going toe to toe for longer than 1 year, it would just be a waste of VW's money that they would be unlikely to overlook.

It seems both brands being in creates a "win-win" situation and that is what they want, according to many comments and most recently by Wolfgang Durheimer here:

http://fourtitude.co...boss-durheimer/

Wouldn't be the first time this sort of weirdness happens in motorsport: PSA's Citroen and Peugeot were in WRC for several years as direct competitors.

Another way you could look at it is the ACO are French, there are no French entries, Renault are French, the ACO spoke to them, Renault said we don't want to develop another type of engine, the ACO adapted the rules to suit. It wouldn't be unheard of.

Little in the conspiracy theory territory imho, but these rules have been in the making since the summer of 2010, when Peugeot was still in, but Renault (as the F1 team) actually was present in the initial meeting at least. See the list of participants of the "MINUTES OF THE LMP CONSTRUCTORS MEETING JUNE, 30th 2010" here: http://www.mulsannes...newsjuly10.html :D

Edited by Meanstreak, 18 August 2012 - 16:28.


#98 Risil

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:16

To be honest, I don't want it to happen. If someone purposefully puts that into the regulations (which they HAVEN'T), it's a return to the early 1990s when cynical attempts were made to siphon away manufacturers from sportscars and into F1, killing Group C in the process. With the costs involved, it won't be like the 1970s when lots of teams were able to buy Cosworth DFVs to slot into their Group 6 cars, detune them and go racing at Le Mans.


Modern racing is nothing like the 1970s, but it ain't the early '90s either. The money that was being spent by Honda and Renault in those days was insane. Nowadays engine development seems to play quite a small part in Grand Prix racing's concerns, although this might be just the effects of the 2007-13 "freeze".

I wonder how high up the grid you have to go these days to find an F1 team with a budget as big as Audi's or Toyota's. Mercedes, possibly?

If I were being cynical, I'd say Jean Todt is trying to find customers for the products of his near-disastrous engine revolution for 2014. These economies of scale don't just build themselves. F1's 2014 rules have been built with so many compromises and vested interests that I could well imagine that the engines won't be ideal in the competitive sense. Whatever, this uncertainty won't be good for teams without a factory engine programme. Given that the whole future of F1's regulations appears to hinge on how many teams Renault/Mecachrome will be able to supply, I can see a lot more frustration on the horizon.

#99 TimRTC

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:22

They are certainly heavily promoting the '6 Hours of Silverstone' - should be a good weekend with Classic Endurance Racing and FRenault 3.5 in support, a good variation. However, looks like rain is back on the forecast for the end of the week.

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#100 Meanstreak

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:03

I wonder how high up the grid you have to go these days to find an F1 team with a budget as big as Audi's or Toyota's. Mercedes, possibly?

Audi/2010: 70M euros
http://archives.tomo...ort-100me-14412

Peugeot/2011: 75M euros (20M coming from sponsor Total)
http://archives.tomo...de-partir-26174
http://www.sportune....f-de-80me-49254

Whatever Toyota's budget is, for this season I think it will considerably less, since full WEC wasn't originally their plan until Case: Peugeot happened and of course they're running only one car. Plans changed, but I doubt the budget changed.

Edited by Meanstreak, 22 August 2012 - 03:12.