84 replies to this topic

[Bauble]

Who might be considerd the first driver to win the World Chamionship (F1) for Ferrari?

Give the question some consideration.

bauble

[Tim Murray]

Michael Schumacher

[uechtel]

Nobody. Schumacher was the first to win the Formula One World Championship for Drivers, Ascari was the first Ferrari winner of the Automobile World Championship, but which series is called "World Championship (F1)"?

http://forums.autosp...ampionship 1979

Edited by uechtel, 15 November 2011 - 16:30.

[D-Type]

Where's the catch?

The title of the thread says "First Driver to win the World Championship for Ferrari?" Answer Ascari

Then the other hand the first post says "Who might be considerd the first driver to win the World Chamionship (F1) for Ferrari?" Answer Fangio.

Wobblers:

If it had said "... in a Ferrari" some would argue that it should be Mike Hawthorn as the 1956 car was originally a Lancia.

Neither asks "Who was the first driver to win the FIA Formula 1 World Championship for drivers for Ferrari?" (Or whatever the current official title is) - then it would be Michael Schumacher.

Edit: Uechtel's link, which crossed with this post, explains the significance of the name.

Edited by D-Type, 15 November 2011 - 17:29.

[Eric Dunsdon]

Knowing old Bauble, its Mike Hawthorn. Ascari's Championships having been in Formula 2 and Fangio's in a Lancia.

[Roger Clark]

Is there a prize for the most absurd answer? Mine would be Wolfgang von Trips.

[ensign14]

Probably something like Baghetti, on the basis that the points he won guaranteed Ferrari their first constructors' title...

[Tim Murray]

No - it was clinched at Aintree by von Trips, hence Roger's answer.

[Roger Clark]

No - it was clinched at Aintree by von Trips, hence Roger's answer.

I thought it was his second in Germany but I may be wrong.

[Tim Murray]

You're not often wrong, Roger, but here's how I work it out:

Best 5 scores counted. Before Aintree Ferrari had 3 wins and a second - 33 points. Lotus had a win and two thirds - 17 points - and could still have won the championship.

After Aintree Ferrari had four wins and a second - 42 points. Lotus still had 17, so even if they won the last three races their net score would have been four wins and a third - 40 points

[Tim Murray]

I've now reread this old thread:

1961 Constructor points

which indicates that in the 1961 Constructors' Championship 8 (not 9) points were awarded for a win (even though drivers received 9 points). This alters the numbers I posted above, but not the conclusion:

Best 5 scores counted. Before Aintree Ferrari had 3 wins and a second - 30 points. Lotus had a win and two thirds - 16 points - and could still have won the championship.

After Aintree Ferrari had four wins and a second - 38 points. Lotus still had 16, so even if they won the last three races their net score would have been four wins and a third - 36 points

Edited by Tim Murray, 15 November 2011 - 19:32.

[helioseism]

http://www.flickr.co...ach/6086790844/

[Roger Clark]

You're right. My assertion was taken from a post-Aintree article in Autosport which was flawed in many ways.

[sbrinley]

I've now reread this old thread:

1961 Constructor points

which indicates that in the 1961 Constructors' Championship 8 (not 9) points were awarded for a win (even though drivers received 9 points). This alters the numbers I posted above, but not the conclusion:

Best 5 scores counted. Before Aintree Ferrari had 3 wins and a second - 30 points. Lotus had a win and two thirds - 16 points - and could still have won the championship.

After Aintree Ferrari had four wins and a second - 38 points. Lotus still had 16, so even if they won the last three races their net score would have been four wins and a third - 36 points

And von Trips won Aintree; so if that was the clincher as the season turned out, von Trips, with his second win for Ferrari, gave them their first FI championship. Also, 1958 was the first year there was a F1 constructors' championship and Vanwall won; so, if we are talking about a formal championship win, and ignore 1956, it is 1961.

[MaserGT]

Who might be considerd the first driver to win the World Chamionship (F1) for Ferrari?

Give the question some consideration.

bauble

Bauble has quite literally taken the "p" out in his question. That is all.

Edited by MaserGT, 16 November 2011 - 00:53.

[Nick Wa]

Peter Collins for giving his car to Fangio.

[David McKinney]

Knowing Bauble, that's probably who he meant ;)

[uechtel]

But obviously not the correct answer, as the title was already firmly in Ferrari´s hands...

[Bloggsworth]

The answer is "None of the above" - All drivers win the title for themselves, it is independent of which team they drive for...

[Bauble]

I agree with some assertions - it was a badly worded question, however, it confirms my notion that nothing is simple on TNF.

So which country might be considered the most successful in terms of the drivers (lower case) World Championship? (Please don't be picky over the wording, you know what I mean. If you don't- switch to another forum)

Plenty to get your collective teeth into with that one I suspect, and please note I do not lay down any criteria, it is a matter of personal opinion, and I hope fascinating to to hear the ideas of the Honourable Members of this House.

[arttidesco]

I'd go with Phil Hill and Taffy von Trips since together they both contributed to the Ferrari points tally 'FOR' the first championship that Ferrari won, I'd agree with Tim that von Trips drove the car that clinched the first World Chamionship (F1) 'FOR' Ferrari.

Looks like Wittgenstein was correct the the problems of philosophy are posed by the misunderstood logic of our language :-)

[arttidesco]

The answer is "None of the above" - All drivers win the title for themselves, it is independent of which team they drive for...

I'm not sure Messers Williams & Head share your point of view at all, the only title they profess to be interested in is the 'constructors' title and they employ drivers to win that title for the greater good of the Williams empire.

[Tim Murray]

So which country might be considered the most successful in terms of the drivers (lower case) World Championship? (Please don't be picky over the wording, you know what I mean. If you don't- switch to another forum)

No contest statistically, surely:

Great Britain 10 drivers (England 8, Scotland 2), 14 championships
Brazil 3 drivers, 8 championships
Finland 3 drivers, 4 championships
Australia 2 drivers, 4 championships
Austria 2 drivers, 4 championships
Germany 2 drivers, 9 championships
Italy 2 drivers, 3 championships
USA 2 drivers, 2 championships
Argentina 1 driver, 5 championships
Canada 1 driver, 1 championship
France 1 driver, 4 championships
New Zealand 1 driver, 1 championship
South Africa 1 driver, 1 championship
Spain 1 driver, 2 championships

It might be interesting to work out for each country an index based on the number of champions per million of population. I suspect Finland might score quite highly.

[Arjan de Roos]

Give the question some consideration.

bauble

Simply one : Tazio Nuvolari.

(I considered not so long)

[arttidesco]

Since I wanted to follow baubles specific request not to be picky I stopped attempting to answer this question after I looked up what country was :-

"A country is a region legally identified as a distinct entity in political geography. A country may be an independent sovereign state or one that is occupied by another state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign political division, or a geographic region associated with a previously independent people with distinct political characteristics."

[Bauble]

Simply one : Tazio Nuvolari.

(I considered not so long)

A very good answer Arjan, not what I had in mind, but hard to argue with.

[Bauble]

Since I wanted to follow baubles specific request not to be picky I stopped attempting to answer this question after I looked up what country was :-

"A country is a region legally identified as a distinct entity in political geography. A country may be an independent sovereign state or one that is occupied by another state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign political division, or a geographic region associated with a previously independent people with distinct political characteristics."

Artydisco; Blog off!!!

[Bauble]

No contest statistically, surely:

Great Britain 10 drivers (England 8, Scotland 2), 14 championships
Brazil 3 drivers, 8 championships
Finland 3 drivers, 4 championships
Australia 2 drivers, 4 championships
Austria 2 drivers, 4 championships
Germany 2 drivers, 9 championships
Italy 2 drivers, 3 championships
USA 2 drivers, 2 championships
Argentina 1 driver, 5 championships
Canada 1 driver, 1 championship
France 1 driver, 4 championships
New Zealand 1 driver, 1 championship
South Africa 1 driver, 1 championship
Spain 1 driver, 2 championships


Tim,
Do we want to lump the Jocks in with the English? Also might one consider how many individual Grands Prix have been won by any one country (as described by Artidesco). I have not attempted to count them up but with Schumi's and Seb's they might take the lead!

Also Great Britain is the only country to have won all the races in one season, and I believe the only one to have had representation every year.

Which country has the most drivers winning a championship race?

Waht about Turkey, Malaysia, China, Abu Dhabi etc. surely their contribution to Grands Prix racing should not be underestimated? (Check caveat)


It might be interesting to work out for each country an index based on the number of champions per million of population. I suspect Finland might score quite highly.

[Rob]

In terms of Champions per Population (and multiplied by 10^9 for nicer numbers), we get...

1. Finland - 556.4
2. Scotland - 383.0
3. Austria - 237.7
4. New Zealand - 226.5
5. England - 155.5
6. Australia - 87.9
7. Italy - 33.0
8. Canada - 28.9
9. Argentina - 24.9
10. Germany - 24.4
11. Spain - 21.7
12. South Africa - 19.8
13. Brazil - 15.6
14. France - 15.2
15. USA - 6.4

[D-Type]

No contest statistically, surely:

Great Britain 10 drivers (England 8, Scotland 2), 14 championships
Brazil 3 drivers, 8 championships
Finland 3 drivers, 4 championships
Australia 2 drivers, 4 championships
Austria 2 drivers, 4 championships
Germany 2 drivers, 9 championships
Italy 2 drivers, 3 championships
USA 2 drivers, 2 championships
Argentina 1 driver, 5 championships
Canada 1 driver, 1 championship
France 1 driver, 4 championships
New Zealand 1 driver, 1 championship
South Africa 1 driver, 1 championship
Spain 1 driver, 2 championships

It might be interesting to work out for each country an index based on the number of champions per million of population. I suspect Finland might score quite highly.

You can manipulate the statistics to say what you want them to.

Count championships as opposed to drivers.
Tim's list is in number of drivers order. The list by number of championships puts Germany, Argentina and France higher up the scale.

Championships per driver competing.
Since Britain lead the table of drivers who have driven in a GP by a country mile and New Zealand, Australia, or Finland probably come at the other end the ranking would change

Championships per driver start.
Probably more significant as the large number of Britons and Germans who only drove in a couple of races will not have a significant effect.

But what cannot be taken into account statistically is the proportion of people in a given country participating in motor sport and in the case of the USA, in particular, the number participating in racing with absolutely no aspiration to drive in a GP, let alone win the championship.

Like the previous question, it really needs to be clearer what exactly is meant.

As an example of how statistics can mislead, a statistics based site ranks Bruce McLaren as the "most successful Cooper driver" on the basis of the number of championship points scored. Disregarding Brabham's two Championships and numerous wins.

Edited by D-Type, 16 November 2011 - 11:44.

[Rob]

In terms of Championships per Population (and multiplied by 10^9 for nicer numbers), we get...

1. Scotland - 957.5
2. Finland - 741.9
3. Austria - 475.4
4. New Zealand - 226.5
5. Australia - 175.7
6. England - 174.9
7. Argentina - 124.6
8. Germany - 110.0
9. France - 60.8
10. Italy - 49.4
11. Spain - 43.4
12. Brazil - 41.6
13. Canada - 28.9
14. South Africa - 19.8
15. USA - 6.4

[Tim Murray]

To answer a few of Bob's questions, the Stats F1 site is the place for lots of weird and wonderful statistics.

Also might one consider how many individual Grands Prix have been won by any one country (as described by Artidesco). I have not attempted to count them up but with Schumi's and Seb's they might take the lead!

Don't worry, Germany is now in second place, but still a long way behind GB:

http://www.statsf1.c...ire/nombre.aspx

Which country has the most drivers winning a championship race?

Likewise, still GB:

http://www.statsf1.c...e/national.aspx

[Tim Murray]

In terms of Champions per Population (and multiplied by 10^9 for nicer numbers), we get...

1. Finland - 556.4
2. Scotland - 383.0
3. Austria - 237.7

In terms of Championships per Population (and multiplied by 10^9 for nicer numbers), we get...

1. Scotland - 957.5
2. Finland - 741.9
3. Austria - 475.4

Nice work, Rob.

[Amphicar]

So which country might be considered the most successful in terms of the drivers (lower case) World Championship?

If we measure success as the number of world champions as a proportion of the number of drivers of a particular nationality who have taken part in at least one F1 race, the answer is very clear - Finland. A total of 8 F1 drivers, three of whom (Keke Rosberg, Mika Häkkinen, Kimi Räikkönen) were world champions.

[Bauble]

Which just goes to prove (at least to me) that there are very few positives on TNF

[Amphicar]

Which just goes to prove (at least to me) that there are very few positives on TNF

Lots of positives - just not many certainties!

[Bauble]

Lots of positives - just not many certainties!

Is that your definitive answer, and if it is are you sure?

[lustigson]

Allow me to get back to the first topic of this thread, the first driver to win the World Championship (F1) for Ferrari.

• Alberto Ascari won the World Drivers’ Championship (WDC) in 1952, in a Ferrari, but this was to Formula 2 specifications.
• Juan Manuel Fangio won the WDC in 1956, in a Ferrari, but this was developed, built and raced by Lancia in (the) previous season(s), and sold to Ferrari.
• Fangio was effectively gifted the 1956 title by teammate Peter Collins, who, in the final race, handed his car to Fangio, who had retired with his own car. In doing so, gave up his own shot at the title.
• Mike Hawthorn won the World Drivers’ Championship in 1958, in a Ferrari, but it the championship was not specified as a ‘Formula 1 World Championship’.
• It was argued that either Wolfgang von Trips or Phil Hill won Ferrari its first constructors’ title in 1961 by winning the British and Italian Grands Prix respectively, but the constructors’ title wasn’t specified as a world championship, since it was the ‘International Cup for F1 Manufacturers’.
• Eddie Irvine came third in the 1999 Japanese Grand Prix, claiming 4 points for Ferrari, which earned the team the Formula One World (Constructors’) Championship. (Michael Schumacher could be argued to have done so, too, since he came second in the same race, but without Irvine’s points, McLaren would’ve won the title with 7 victories to Ferrari’s 6.)
• Schumacher was the first driver to win the Formula One World (Drivers’) Championship for Ferrari, in 2000.

So I reckon there's six potentially correct answers to the original question. Or 7 wrong answers, whichever way you look at it.

[Tim Murray]

What about 1982? Would that not have been Ferrari's first victory in the 'Formula 1 World Constructors' Championship'?

[Michael Ferner]

Aren't you forgetting the 1982 and '83 titles? The correct answer might actually be: Mario Andretti!


EDIT: Tim's been a wee bit faster!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 16 November 2011 - 16:29.

[Arjan de Roos]

Allow me to get back to the first topic of this thread, the first driver to win the World Championship (F1) for Ferrari.

[list=1]
[*]Juan Manuel Fangio won the WDC in 1956, in a Ferrari, but this was developed, built and raced by Lancia in (the) previous season(s), and sold to Ferrari.

Well Christiaan, as Enzo said on some occassions he found it not justified to call the D50 a pure Lancia when it was raced by Ferrari. The Scuderia did modify the Lancia D50 to a degree. However it should also not be called Ferrari D50.
Looking at Bauble's question: "..for Ferrari." This could be with a Ferrari (in a Ferrari), for the team Ferrari or (if it differs) the man himself. So I guess it stops at 1956.

[lustigson]

Shoot, I had thought about 1982 and '83 but forgot to include hem in the list.

[my_own_shadow]

Count Gastone Brilli-Peri. Monza, 06.09.1925

[Bauble]

Just to muddy the waters even further, I wonder how (say) McLaren compares with Ferrari in terms of Formula 1/Grands Prix results. In my opinion not well at all ...................!

??????????????????? Is the man nuts?????????????????

Bauble.

[RStock]

Just to muddy the waters even further, I wonder how (say) McLaren compares with Ferrari in terms of Formula 1/Grands Prix results. In my opinion not well at all ...................!

??????????????????? Is the man nuts?????????????????

Bauble.

If you count "Grand Prix" races, it would be Ferrari by a mile, or more.

Oh, and you're a trouble maker.

[jj2728]

Simply one : Tazio Nuvolari.

(I considered not so long)

My first thought was Nivola, but back in the day it was considered the European Championship, so I left him out of it.....
I don't know, Big John was always a favorite of mine......

[Kaha]

Well Christiaan, as Enzo said on some occassions he found it not justified to call the D50 a pure Lancia when it was raced by Ferrari. The Scuderia did modify the Lancia D50 to a degree. However it should also not be called Ferrari D50.
Looking at Bauble's question: "..for Ferrari." This could be with a Ferrari (in a Ferrari), for the team Ferrari or (if it differs) the man himself. So I guess it stops at 1956.

Well, the D50s got altered by Ferrari. However, the least altered D50 often proved to be the fastest, to the annoyance of Enzo...

[Roger Clark]

Count Gastone Brilli-Peri. Monza, 06.09.1925

Why?

[Sebastian Tombs]

Why?

Presumably because B-P's win ensured Alfa Romeo won the AIACR (precursor of FIA) World Manufacturer's Championship with a team managed by Enzo Ferrari. Pretty tenuous but not as daft as some of the answers in the thread to a typical Bauble-esque vague question.

[lustigson]

Count Gastone Brilli-Peri. Monza, 06.09.1925

Good point. I had discarded the pre-WW2 European Drivers' Championship, but was too much in a hurry writing my post, that I hadn't thought of the 1925-1927 Scuderia Ferrari-run Alfa Romeos.