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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#551 marcoferrari

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:51

BBC reporting that Senna is the strong favourite for the seat... I still think Barrichello is the better driver.


There should be a new slogan for Formula One - have a shi.tty season and you will get a seat!

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#552 Little Leaf

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:13

BBC reporting that Senna is the strong favourite for the seat... I still think Barrichello is the better driver.


Link

http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/16544865.stm

Doesn't say on what the story is based/a source

#553 sofarapartguy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:16

Link

http://news.bbc.co.u...ne/16544865.stm

Doesn't say on what the story is based/a source


"Senna impressed when racing for Renault in the final eight races of 2011 and also drove in 2010 for new team HRT"

Erm... Did he?

#554 GSF1

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:28

I've got a feeling that when we have the next big change in regulations say 2014 we might see restrictions on the shrink wrapped tightly packaged body of late. I think the FIA may mandate larger body work so that cars don't need to be as tightly packaged. Teams are spending too much on packaging the cars and cooling all the systems, that the poorer teams are struggling to keep up, also if Redbull are still dominating it might slow them down a bit. This might free up some space for the Williams flywheel kers system if it happens.



I have a feeling this wont be the case, as ERS will be so much more integrated into the overall package, and also that the manufacturers are all opting for the battery solution, Tesla, Prius just to name a few, plus BMW and GM the flywheel has seemed to have run it's race, with not been givn a fair shot, but what they did with it in the Porsche this year, shows that the flywheel definitely has a future,

#555 Mastah

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:37

"Senna impressed when racing for Renault in the final eight races of 2011 and also drove in 2010 for new team HRT"

Erm... Did he?


Not really. No.


So, there is some other source, quite reliable one, who thinks the deal was done 2 weeks ago (which I guess is in line with reports from Brazil) and announcement will be made next week. Waiting till next week then.


#556 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:40

The delay seems to be related to tieing up Senna's sponsorship deal. Senna wasn't paid anything by Lotus

#557 kenny

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:40

Not really. No.


So, there is some other source, quite reliable one, who thinks the deal was done 2 weeks ago (which I guess is in line with reports from Brazil) and announcement will be made next week. Waiting till next week then.

which source do you have :)

#558 sofarapartguy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:44

Not really. No.


So, there is some other source, quite reliable one, who thinks the deal was done 2 weeks ago (which I guess is in line with reports from Brazil) and announcement will be made next week. Waiting till next week then.


I refuse to understand Williams logic then. They desperately need a decent season in a midfield. Do they expect to have one with Maldonado and Senna onboard?

#559 Little Leaf

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:48

I refuse to understand Williams logic then. They desperately need a decent season in a midfield. Do they expect to have one with Maldonado and Senna onboard?


It all depends on the car

Maybe they think they can offset the performance deficency of those 2 drivers (if they are that bad...) but using the money they bring to make the car go faster

Let's face it if they produce another FW33 then it won't matter who is behind the wheel

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#560 sofarapartguy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 11:55

It all depends on the car

Maybe they think they can offset the performance deficency of those 2 drivers (if they are that bad...) but using the money they bring to make the car go faster

Let's face it if they produce another FW33 then it won't matter who is behind the wheel


I agree with that. But what if FW34 is a really good one, capable of scoring poduims? The've gor a new good engine, new key persons, massive changes inside the team.

I think it is much safer to run with a young talanted driver and expirienced hungry driver in any case, regardless of the car's performance.

#561 Francesc

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:39

Petrov scored a podium with the R31. Who would have predicted that before the season?

#562 Mastah

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:41

which source do you have :)


Good source :). We have to wait for next week to see if it's a reliable one.

BTW.

f1talks f1talks.pl
It seams that journalist at Autosport show cooked some stories. Senna to Williams and Petrov with Caterham...


f1enigma Dimi PAPADOPOULOS
@f1talks Think its more than "cooked"





I refuse to understand Williams logic then. They desperately need a decent season in a midfield. Do they expect to have one with Maldonado and Senna onboard?


Exactly. New engine. New exhausts. New car designed by new people. New tyres. And from whom they will get feedback? Here's the answer:

First day of test.

Engineer: Bruno, what do you think about new engine? How is the driveability compared to Cosworth?
Bruno: I don't know, I wasn't with you guys last year, don't you remember?
E: Oh, yes... :well:
B: But wait, I got valuable experience of Cosworth from HRT and I know thing or two about Renault from my stint last year!
E: Ekhm... thank you for that... (cries :cry:)

Second day of test.

Engineer: Pastor, do you hear me? How's the car?
Pastor: Fu*k!
E: What?
P: Fu*k!
E: Wait, I see on our telemetry you lost front wing and both front wheels, what the hell happened?
P: Hamilton crashed into me!
E: How is that possible if you are missing front end of the car?
P: He crashed into me, you know??!!
E: Pastor, tell me the truth! What happened out there?
P: He crashed into me, this is racing!!
E: You were on the fu*king outlap you idiot, this is NOT racing :mad:!!!
P: This IS racing, hombre!
E: F*ck :mad:.

Few hours later, evening call:

Williams guy: Hello, is that Rubens?
Rubens: Yep, what's up?
W: Rubens, please, come back :cry:. We will do anything you want :cry:.
R: Haha, I told you, bitches :cool:.

#563 Myrvold

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:52

However, I've only read and heard that the teams (all from F3) have been extremely happy with the feedback B.Senna gives.

#564 Massa_f1

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:53

Not a fan of Rubens, but more fool Williams for taking on Senna over him.

I can see the Williams car crashing an awful lot this season if they have Pastor and Senna on board.

#565 sofarapartguy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:55

Well.. kinda my thoughts. Thank you.



#566 roadie

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 13:42

I'd favour Rubens for some continuity. Also, even though he's 40, I don't think there is another driver available who is better than him.

#567 MustangSally

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 14:05

But what if FW34 is a really good one, capable of scoring podiums?


Yes, Senna would be an unhappy decision for me. He was only in the points once when nine other cars fell off. In the other races he was miles behind Petrov. Whatever Andrew Benson says, I don't agree. Senna even finished some races behind the Williams and Heikki's Lotus, which takes some doing.

Williams has had very weak driver pairings since 05. Barrichello and Hulk was the strongest, despite it being Hulk's rookie year. But unfortunately that was short-lived.

In 2009 Williams had a good car and started the season with the DD advantage. Rosberg fluffed a couple of podium chances and Nakajima somehow contrived to score no points whatsoever all year. Unbelievable. Wurz was a mistake too.

If Williams goes back to being a one-driver team, I shall despair.

#568 FTATRWeSaluteYou

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 14:11

Yes, Senna would be an unhappy decision for me. He was only in the points once when nine other cars fell off. In the other races he was miles behind Petrov. Whatever Andrew Benson says, I don't agree. Senna even finished some races behind the Williams and Heikki's Lotus, which takes some doing.

Williams has had very weak driver pairings since 05. Barrichello and Hulk was the strongest, despite it being Hulk's rookie year. But unfortunately that was short-lived.

In 2009 Williams had a good car and started the season with the DD advantage. Rosberg fluffed a couple of podium chances and Nakajima somehow contrived to score no points whatsoever all year. Unbelievable. Wurz was a mistake too.

If Williams goes back to being a one-driver team, I shall despair.


05?

Williams had strong diver pairings in 05 and 06

Webber/Heidfeld and then Webber/Rosberg was much stronger than Rubens/Hulk.

Williams problems are not down to their drivers.



#569 sofarapartguy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 14:19

Yes, Senna would be an unhappy decision for me. He was only in the points once when nine other cars fell off. In the other races he was miles behind Petrov. Whatever Andrew Benson says, I don't agree. Senna even finished some races behind the Williams and Heikki's Lotus, which takes some doing.

Williams has had very weak driver pairings since 05. Barrichello and Hulk was the strongest, despite it being Hulk's rookie year. But unfortunately that was short-lived.

In 2009 Williams had a good car and started the season with the DD advantage. Rosberg fluffed a couple of podium chances and Nakajima somehow contrived to score no points whatsoever all year. Unbelievable. Wurz was a mistake too.

If Williams goes back to being a one-driver team, I shall despair.


I can see a bright prospects for Williams in 2013 - talanted and young Bottas as a second driver, a one-year expirience with Renault engines and a new people in the team. All they need is a nice and steady 2012 year. They might be not happy with Rubens for whatever reason? as he likes to moan too much, but he definitely is the nessesary element for the team to improve their positions. Dispite my desire to evaluate Bruno after a full season in a decent team.

#570 MustangSally

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 14:29

05?

Williams had strong diver pairings in 05 and 06

Webber/Heidfeld and then Webber/Rosberg was much stronger than Rubens/Hulk.

Williams problems are not down to their drivers.


Yes, I meant post 05. Rosberg's first season wasn't that great and he hardly pushed his team mate.

Williams problems are not down to their drivers


I didn't say that. I was responding to the 'what if' question in the previous post.

Then the driving strength would not be up to the potential of the car, which was certainly the case in 09.

#571 Petroltorque

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 16:20

In the hope of adding some objectivity to the debate. Does one feel Williams' performance is driver limited or car limited. If it was driver limited then Barrichello's "feedback" input would had made some difference to performance don't you think?. In fact, in the situation where one needed the driver to elevate performance it was Maldonado who stepped up to the plate in Monaco and Spa, which, ironically are the last two driver circuits on the calender.
If the performance is car limited, then Williams need funding to optimise transmission, KERS, Aero and new engine installation. When last I looked Williams had to sign a major sponsor and don't look like achieving that in the near future. Finishing outside the top six last year doesn't help their .position either
No I'm afraid just on a commercial basis the Senna deal is the obvious one, even before considering his driving ability. feel I for one two young hungry drivers looking to establish themselves is likely to drive the team forward far quicker than any experienced driver.
As for the Sutil debate; Aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon if prooven usually has some jail time assocaiated with it.

#572 Little Leaf

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 06:24

I can see a bright prospects for Williams in 2013 - talanted and young Bottas as a second driver, a one-year expirience with Renault engines and a new people in the team. All they need is a nice and steady 2012 year. They might be not happy with Rubens for whatever reason? as he likes to moan too much, but he definitely is the nessesary element for the team to improve their positions. Dispite my desire to evaluate Bruno after a full season in a decent team.


Frank Williams did say that they wouldn't throw Rubens' experience away lightly.

Would also like to see Bruno given a fair chance over a whole season

#573 joora

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:30

In the hope of adding some objectivity to the debate. Does one feel Williams' performance is driver limited or car limited. If it was driver limited then Barrichello's "feedback" input would had made some difference to performance don't you think?. In fact, in the situation where one needed the driver to elevate performance it was Maldonado who stepped up to the plate in Monaco and Spa, which, ironically are the last two driver circuits on the calender.
If the performance is car limited, then Williams need funding to optimise transmission, KERS, Aero and new engine installation. When last I looked Williams had to sign a major sponsor and don't look like achieving that in the near future. Finishing outside the top six last year doesn't help their .position either
No I'm afraid just on a commercial basis the Senna deal is the obvious one, even before considering his driving ability. feel I for one two young hungry drivers looking to establish themselves is likely to drive the team forward far quicker than any experienced driver.
As for the Sutil debate; Aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon if prooven usually has some jail time assocaiated with it.


I totally agree, I think that Williams handicap this year was mostly car performance and, while I would not like to see a (so far) medicore driver as B.Senna driving the Williams next year, I think it is the best option at the moment.
At least he's not a known quantity, he could surprise.

I really don't see ANY reason for Williams to choose Rubens over Bruno.
- he hasn't dominated his rookie teammate (who has paid driver stigma attached to his name)
- he reportedly brings less money
- the age factor - he hasn't been exceptional this season, doubt he could be better in 2012
- while the technical dept. is most responsible for FW33, the car was developed with help of his feedback, and it was meant to be upgraded during 2011 with help of his feedback. We all know how that turned out
- he doesn't fit into the "big change" vision of williams

I doubt that we will see Sutil in FW34 with the court case thing.

Anyway, I think that it was FW who said that almost any F1 driver today can get the maximum from the car, so that's one more reason why I think they'll go with Bruno.

#574 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 10:49

Bruno looked poor compared to Petrov. Barrichello's drive in Abu Dhabi was brilliant, far better than anything Senna's ever done in F1. If Senna's so good why did Lotus sack him for Grosjean?

The 2011 car design was flawed for reasons that were detailed by Sam Michael (differences between Cosworth and Renault not appreciated, overweight monocoque etc) and how on earth *any* of those issues can be attributed to Barrichello is beyond me.

#575 Tract1on

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:09

Two weeks (tomorrow) till testing starts in Jerez.
You would think an announcement from Williams re the second seat would be coming imminently...?

#576 King Six

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:11

Even I rate Rubens over Bruno. You can't have two inexperienced drivers like that, especially not for a team like Williams who are struggling.

#577 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:21

Two weeks (tomorrow) till testing starts in Jerez.
You would think an announcement from Williams re the second seat would be coming imminently...?

F1enigma thinks they may wait until the last minute (literally the day before) as they've all had seat fittings and they're waiting for the Sutil case to settle down.

#578 joora

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:27

Even I rate Rubens over Bruno. You can't have two inexperienced drivers like that, especially not for a team like Williams who are struggling.


Sure you can - look at Sauber.

IMHO it is better to have inexperienced drivers in a good car than experienced ones in a car like FW33.

Making a good car requires money.


#579 joora

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:29

The 2011 car design was flawed for reasons that were detailed by Sam Michael (differences between Cosworth and Renault not appreciated, overweight monocoque etc) and how on earth *any* of those issues can be attributed to Barrichello is beyond me.


Maybe with better feedback they wouldn't have gazillion of update parts which didn't work?


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#580 sofarapartguy

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:30

Sure you can - look at Sauber.

IMHO it is better to have inexperienced drivers in a good car than experienced ones in a car like FW33.

Making a good car requires money.


Sauber is the only team to stick with young drivers - it's their phylosophy, if you like.

And Williams is no Sauber.

P.S. I don't take STR seriosly from that point of view.

#581 IceSkyrim

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:31

Rubens would be the optimized solution for Williams.

Maldonado already said Rubens helps him on set ups, therefore making him faster.

If Sutil is the chosen one, there might be a rivalry and loss of cooperation.

Senna won't help the team, since he is even more unexperienced than Maldo.

Rubens + Maldonado = Synergy

#582 Mastah

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:22

Maybe with better feedback they wouldn't have gazillion of update parts which didn't work?


And what kind of feedback you can get from someone, who after one day of pre-season testing and one FP1 session forgets to use DRS in qual?

Rubens was pushing team to solve ride height problems and he was the one who was running at Nurburgring without KERS in order to see what are benefits of this kind of experiment. IIRC he also made a lot of comments about Cosworth, so they could improve their engine.

I don't see anything in Pastor and Bruno which makes me thinking they can help with developing new FW34 with new exhausts, new tyres and new engine through their feedback.

#583 Little Leaf

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:23

Wouldn't there be an argument that if the driver they favour is less-experienced and new to the team (Senna, Petrov, to a lesser extent Sutil), that it would be better announcing them earlier rather than later so they can spend time in the simulator and getting to know the team?

Or is that not so important these days? I would have thought so given the lack of testing...

#584 Tract1on

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:31

You would think so.......

Wouldn't there be an argument that if the driver they favour is less-experienced and new to the team (Senna, Petrov, to a lesser extent Sutil), that it would be better announcing them earlier rather than later so they can spend time in the simulator and getting to know the team?


Edited by Tract1on, 16 January 2012 - 12:32.


#585 joora

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:36

And what kind of feedback you can get from someone, who after one day of pre-season testing and one FP1 session forgets to use DRS in qual?


Probably none, but you can get financial backing to offset the lack of feedback.

I'm rooting for Alguersuari anyway, I think he's the best option from the remaining drivers - he's good, relatively experienced and young. Too bad he doesn't have the millions.

#586 LewEngBridewell

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:46

Bruno looked poor compared to Petrov. Barrichello's drive in Abu Dhabi was brilliant, far better than anything Senna's ever done in F1. If Senna's so good why did Lotus sack him for Grosjean?


What we have to factor in here is the lack of testing that is the current situation with F1. The recent crop of rookies like Jaime Alguersuari, Romain Grosjean and Bruno Senna have been thrown in at the deep end with hardly any experience in an F1 car since the abolition of in-season testing to cut costs.

The thing with Bruno Senna is that flashes of brilliance did surface, but there was too much inconsistency, which exactly mirrors the fortunes of Alguersuari when he first started with Toro Rosso back in the late summer of 2009.

I'm not judging Senna until I've seen him obtain a little more experience, if he gets the chance.

#587 Little Leaf

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 13:55

I'm rooting for Alguersuari anyway, I think he's the best option from the remaining drivers - he's good, relatively experienced and young. Too bad he doesn't have the millions.


It will be a shame if he doesn't find himself a drive for next year.

I don't see him having much chance with the Williams seat though unfortunately

#588 sofarapartguy

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 14:03

It will be a shame if he doesn't find himself a drive for next year.

I don't see him having much chance with the Williams seat though unfortunately


I'm sure Alg will be a test driver in a decent team next year.

#589 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 19:58

It appears as though Senna will be announced within the next 24 hours.

#590 blackhand2010

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 20:17

It appears as though Senna will be announced within the next 24 hours.


Tis a sad time if true.
Williams were the team that I routed for when I first started watching F1 in '95, and I'd still love to see them do well.
Sadly, post BMW there just seems to have been wrong turn after wrong turn.
I hate to use the cliched Tyrrell analogy, however on paper, if they take Senna, Williams will be the only team, that I can think of, to take both their drivers because of commercial considerations. Kinda like Tyrell in '98...
Even all three of the "new" teams seem to have one driver, at least, there on merit (or experience, if not speed) and not the size of their wallet.

I really hope the engineers pull it out of the bag with car, cos if not, the most we're going to see of the Williams cars is when they're been lapped, or when they crash.

#591 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 20:31

It's rumoured that he's bringing up to £20m!

#592 ClockworkRacing

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 20:47

I´m rooting for Bruno to get seat,and IMO Ruben´s time has come,it would be nice to Williams to have a pair like Senna/Sutil.
Algersuari is rumoured to be setting up a third driver role at Macca,therefore taking Paffet put og picture

#593 eric2610

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 21:04

The nice thing about Bruno getting that seat will be that there he can finally show how crappy he really is.

Althoug I still believe that the fanboys will find an excuse. Pastor got better parts because of PDVSA or the car was too crapy for him.

Listen too my words, the first driver 2012 too be replaced will be Senna.
Bad performance + Sponsors not paying... That will finally kill Williams. Sad but true...

Edited by eric2610, 16 January 2012 - 21:05.


#594 Mastah

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 21:29

Nah, money won't be a problem. Performance will be. And what an exciting pairing Williams will have, Maldo and Lalli. As exciting as Marussia or HRT :yawnface:.

#595 KoezhVukotic

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 22:38

Nah, money won't be a problem. Performance will be. And what an exciting pairing Williams will have, Maldo and Lalli. As exciting as Marussia or HRT :yawnface:.

Maldonado is certainly more exciting than Mendoza with his tyre protection. Look at Monaco and Spa!

#596 dau

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 22:49

Nah, money won't be a problem. Performance will be. And what an exciting pairing Williams will have, Maldo and Lalli. As exciting as Marussia or HRT :yawnface:.

Or Rubens Barrichello.

#597 joora

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 23:55

Nah, money won't be a problem. Performance will be. And what an exciting pairing Williams will have, Maldo and Lalli. As exciting as Marussia or HRT :yawnface:.


I doubt that two latin american drivers can be boring. I'm pozitive they'll be exciting to watch, only question is how many errors will they make.

#598 DanardiF1

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Posted 16 January 2012 - 23:57

I doubt that two latin american drivers can be boring. I'm pozitive they'll be exciting to watch, only question is how many errors will they make.


Senna? Not many, I don't recall him going off track too much in his F1 career, other than for car-related problems (Korea 2010 suspension failure springs to mind)...

#599 Meanbeakin

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:04

Senna? Not many, I don't recall him going off track too much in his F1 career, other than for car-related problems (Korea 2010 suspension failure springs to mind)...


Well, Spa and Interlagos collisions come to mind.

Nuntheless I'd be happy if Bruno gets the nod, weird that Bruno and Rubens are yet again fighting for the same seat. Frankly I think they would've made a good driver combo themselves.

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#600 DanardiF1

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:08

Well, Spa and Interlagos collisions come to mind.

Nuntheless I'd be happy if Bruno gets the nod, weird that Bruno and Rubens are yet again fighting for the same seat. Frankly I think they would've made a good driver combo themselves.


But they were collisions/coming-together with other cars (and not very big ones) rather than crashes, something Maldonado is good at.