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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#651 SPBHM

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 22:23

Bruno has knowledge of the Renault engine. Surely that would be helpful to the team.


yes, but I think the car difference is quite big, with the side exhausts from the 2011 Renault, the off throttle blowing and all that, I think the engine operation is quite different now, also I think Williams will use their own gearbox (?) which should also change things a bit?

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#652 Mandzipop

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 22:37

yes, but I think the car difference is quite big, with the side exhausts from the 2011 Renault, the off throttle blowing and all that, I think the engine operation is quite different now, also I think Williams will use their own gearbox (?) which should also change things a bit?


Thats not what I mean. Seb has mentioned the driveability of the Renault engine. It is slightly down on horsepower but compared to the Cosworth (which he drove with HRT) it is more drivable. It hasn't hurt Red Bull the fact that it is down on horsepower.

#653 SPBHM

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 22:50

Thats not what I mean. Seb has mentioned the driveability of the Renault engine. It is slightly down on horsepower but compared to the Cosworth (which he drove with HRT) it is more drivable. It hasn't hurt Red Bull the fact that it is down on horsepower.


trouble is Red Bull is so far ahead on the aero side that is hard to say anything, but yes, the engine should be positive for Williams, lower fuel consumption, smoother, but I just don't think this will give any advantage to Bruno compared to Pastor, because the cars and driving characteristics should be quite different, or that he could help the team with something... Renault will give them a lot in terms of data and support I think...
but yes, Rubens always talked about how great to drive the Mercedes engine was compared to the Cosworth, which had degradation problems and didn't have a smooth power delivery or something,

#654 Nitropower

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 22:53

If Williams can produce an aerodynamically good car then the Renault engine will do, more than enough. If it does for Red Bull it will do for Williams. It's been long since Renault overcame its lack of power (the FIA permitting). I really hope Williams find the path they lost so long ago, it's sad to see them drag around the track more and more everytime.

Edited by Nitropower, 17 January 2012 - 22:55.


#655 KoezhVukotic

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 23:05

So now we have twice had the following combinations at Williams:

Rosberg in a Williams Cosworth

Senna in a Williams Renault

Has this ever happened before in F1?

Phil Hill Lotus BRM 1963 (for 1 race)
Graham Hill Lotus BRM 1967 (for 2 races)



#656 Longtimefan

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 23:08

Phil Hill Lotus BRM 1963 (for 1 race)
Graham Hill Lotus BRM 1967 (for 2 races)


Uh.. they aren't related.


#657 KoezhVukotic

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 23:25

Uh.. they aren't related.

I know they weren't but they have the same name and so the situation applies.


#658 One

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 23:31

Now he is in, he can be put out.

We will see. If he is quick enough then he earns his own seat. It has been like this, so it will be also.

Anyways, Frank would not took the man in unless he is convinced about it, This is the make or brake year for Parr, seen from the result 2012. Sam left the team already.

Edited by One, 17 January 2012 - 23:33.


#659 IceSkyrim

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 04:41

Uh.. they aren't related.

Yes, they are... by Adam and Eve. :p

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#660 Little Leaf

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 06:23

Phil Hill Lotus BRM 1963 (for 1 race)
Graham Hill Lotus BRM 1967 (for 2 races)


Good spot



#661 Mastah

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 07:35

Anyways, Frank would not took the man in unless he is convinced about it.


Like he was convinced about Nakajima?




MBrundleF1 Martin Brundle
Williams limited experience Maldonado/Senna/Bottas driver combo+Renault engine change definitely risky in crucial year but not a wild gamble



#662 GSF1

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:19

Just watching the video clip on Williams F1 with Bruno and Frank, Frank genuinely looks happy and confident in the decision, Call it nostalgia call it relief that they have enough money to go around one more time.

Looks like new sponsors are embratel, Gillette and head and shoulders, thats all I could notice on the new team shirts, no sign of title sponsor, but could be drip feeding this information, It is nice though to see just Williams F1, In a perfect world what more do you need, not some sponsor hanging off the reputation and history of a great company.

Also finally some positive signs that they are trying to turn things around, Gillan, sounding positive on the cars development, and the fact the Bruno has been put through his paces and they believe he will be an asset to the team, out with the old and in with the new. Three very young drivers with a lot to prove, we do anything and everything to prove there place in Formula 1, which is a positive with simulation work. An engineer trying to prove he is no cheat and that he has a lot to give to Formula 1, and finally a team that has been found wanting the last couple of years.

I have very positive feelings this year, but every year I have the same feelings. I'm happy for Bruno, has he genuinely deserves a true shot, driving that HRT, which was compared to a midfield GP2 car, and to come in halfway through last season, with a car he barely knew, with tyres he did not know, DRS and KRS he had never used on track, I think he did a fair job, give him a good pre season, more simulator time and time to gell into the team, and we could finally see what Senna has to give, and I don;t think he will disappoint

Roll around 15th of March and first practice session, I'll be there on Brocky's hill cheering on Williams.

#663 Little Leaf

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:40

Looks like new sponsors are embratel, Gillette and head and shoulders, thats all I could notice on the new team shirts, no sign of title sponsor, but could be drip feeding this information, It is nice though to see just Williams F1, In a perfect world what more do you need, not some sponsor hanging off the reputation and history of a great company.


OSX (whatever that is) is another new sponsor of Bruno's

Interesting to see Macgregor still on the shirt, are they staying on for 2012 anybody know?

Will be interesting to see which of these new sponsors actually make it onto the car. I presume Embratel will be on there, not so sure about the others.

QNB would have been nice but that appears to have fallen off the radar now

#664 ivand911

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 08:43

What happen with Qatar money? And they tested Bruno so much because they were not sure about him and they are still not sure, but with such money they didn't have choice. If it was me, I would take Heidfeld. He don't bring money, but he score points.
My prediction for Bruno 2012 is less than 10 points. Yeah , I have been generous.

Edited by ivand911, 18 January 2012 - 08:46.


#665 marcoferrari

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 09:55

a) He doesn't know anything about Cosworth in Williams and how it was.
b) Remember that last year Renault had front exhausts, which changed everything: top speeds, driveability, braking and so on. This year with no EBD and top exhausts engine characteristic will be very different.

It's telling engineers were keen to work with Rubens for another year. Also judging by reactions today from F1 world, Bruno is not the best for Williams right now. Alongside experienced driver? Yes. Next year? Yes. But not now. As someone called it, PM and BS is like the blind leading the deaf.





Heh, you didn't learn anything from current silly season. Your both favourites were replaced because of underperforming or smaller potential, which was confirmed by engineers via journalists (Edd Straw and Mark Hughes), yet you still repeat the same old story about times, points, positions and other stuff. Guess what? Adriano was replaced by Hulk, while STR replaced both drivers and it has little or nothing to do with all this s*it. Telemetry told teams the true story of what to do. DEAL WITH IT.

Your bets were wrong, mine were spot on, so maybe you should rethink your understanding of F1, because it was proved to be wrong? I'm no alfa and omega, but I'm just happy my predictions about them turned out to be true. And yes, Checo is extraordinary talent and you will understand it in a very near future.


:lol: You are such a clown... :)
In which things were I wrong, if I may ask? :)

a/ It is not my problem that team bosses or some journalists have another view of drivers I support... I cannot change it and it doesn't mean THEY ARE 100% RIGHT... Why have we both different views? As you can see it is normal as people are DIFFERENT and they believe in THEIR OWN truth... Important is to have it backed with something... Did you have it backed with something when it comes to Pérez? Did he beat his team mate in standings? Did he make any extraordinary results or achieved an extraordinary amount of championship points? A one 7th place and just 14 points - that was achieved by few other drivers from the midfield, too... Btw. you probably still didn't realise the fact that your "extraordinary" Pérez was beaten by the driver you are constantly trashing as "average"... He won title in British Formula 3 (your wonderboy finished only 3rd) and he finished higher again in Formula One last year driving pretty comparable cars in terms of performance... Not to mention your extraordinary Pérez had JUST over 50% of his points... :lol: So, there is some strange logic claiming that one is "extraordinary" and the second who beat him twice overall, is just "average"... :lol:
Those achievements are FACTS and not those things you are still repeating about engineers, journalists and whoever... I always wanted RESULTS and POINTS to speak for drivers I support and it was exactly so... Both had their best Formula One seasons, both beat their teammates comfortably in the standings and both have won some respect of NORMAL Formula One fans, not trolls, who are just trolling without checking some basic facts...

b/ You are still repeating some quotes, which suit your agenda and completely ignoring others... It is nice that team bosses, engineers and journalists have their own opinion about drivers, but that doesn' t mean they are always 100% RIGHT! A famous quote - "NIGEL MANSELL WILL NEVER WIN A GP AS LONG AS I HAVE HOLE IN MY ARSE"... This was a view of Mansell's boss Peter Warr in mid 80's... Btw. Nigel Mansell is actually the 4th most successfull driver in terms of race wins... :drunk:
Were Mr. Warr and team engineers of Lotus blind during the "Mansell era", when they didn't recognise Nigel's potential?
Another example is the case Mosley vs. Lauda... Niki was called "a joke" during his first Formula One years... His former teamboss Mosley completely LOST FAITH in him when it comes to Formula One and offered him just a seat in F2 or a position as a reserve... Lauda's last chance was to convince BRM boss to give him a seat promising he will find some sponsors... Did you know how the Lauda story end? He won 3 championship titles and is considered as a legend... Again - what were Mosley and enginners of March doing when they didn t recognise Niki's potential?
Another example is De Cesaris vs Ron Dennis... Ron was impressed by the Italian at first and signed him for the McLaren team... This cooperation ended as a catastrophe with De Cesaris crashing over 20 times... And there were some another "jokes" in top teams like Andretti junior (McLaren), Ivan Capelli (Ferrari), Jos Verstappen (Benetton), Heikki Kovalainen (McLaren) all underperforming at track comparing to their teammates... SO, YES ALSO TEAMBOSSES AND ENGINEERS CAN MAKE A MISTAKE! If not, everything would be looking perfect in the world of Formula One with every driver delivering what is expected...

And at last - I am laughing at your strange understanding of Formula One, because only thing you accept is just "raw pace", which can be seen in qualifying... And who isn't a good qualifyier is according to you useless and average... Please tell that to Martin Whitmarsh, so he can change Jenson Button, who btw. outscored one of the most talented and naturally fast drivers out there... According to your logic Schumacher should be also replaced, even if his race pace was most of the time pretty similar or even better then Nico's... In Formula One are also another important things, not just your raw one lap pace... Maybe one day you will finally understand it, but to be honest, I am a bit sceptical... :lol:

Sorry to post this in Williams thread, will return back on topic next time... :)

#666 roadie

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:48

As it's a done deal, we can only have faith in Williams' evaluations. Hopefully the car is competitive enough to allow both drivers to show their potential and score lots of points :)

#667 RF1 fan

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 10:57

:lol: You are such a clown... :)
In which things were I wrong, if I may ask? :)

a/ It is not my problem that team bosses or some journalists have another view of drivers I support... I cannot change it and it doesn't mean THEY ARE 100% RIGHT... Why have we both different views? As you can see it is normal as people are DIFFERENT and they believe in THEIR OWN truth... Important is to have it backed with something... Did you have it backed with something when it comes to Pérez? Did he beat his team mate in standings? Did he make any extraordinary results or achieved an extraordinary amount of championship points? A one 7th place and just 14 points - that was achieved by few other drivers from the midfield, too... Btw. you probably still didn't realise the fact that your "extraordinary" Pérez was beaten by the driver you are constantly trashing as "average"... He won title in British Formula 3 (your wonderboy finished only 3rd) and he finished higher again in Formula One last year driving pretty comparable cars in terms of performance... Not to mention your extraordinary Pérez had JUST over 50% of his points... :lol: So, there is some strange logic claiming that one is "extraordinary" and the second who beat him twice overall, is just "average"... :lol:
Those achievements are FACTS and not those things you are still repeating about engineers, journalists and whoever... I always wanted RESULTS and POINTS to speak for drivers I support and it was exactly so... Both had their best Formula One seasons, both beat their teammates comfortably in the standings and both have won some respect of NORMAL Formula One fans, not trolls, who are just trolling without checking some basic facts...



You cannot compare.

Checo was running a very old Mugen engine in an average team against the best engine in F3 and the best team.

So Checo performance in 2008 was really impressive.

#668 Lord Snooty

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 11:51

As it's a done deal, we can only have faith in Williams' evaluations. Hopefully the car is competitive enough to allow both drivers to show their potential and score lots of points :)



Agreed.

It is what it is; lets see how the team comes together during testing. March 18th will be even more interesting this year as we will have a new designers, new car, new drivers new sponsors etc etc.

Quite looking forward to it.

:up:



#669 Petroltorque

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:35

I think Williams stand a good chance of getting near the top 10. I expect both FI and STR to fall back simply because they were able to buy downforce by optimising the EBD. Vergne will amaze us in just how overrated he is. I'd expect Williams' chassis to be on par with the Lotus. Sauber is an imponderable since they never spent resource on EBD optimisation but they didn't make great strides on aero development.

#670 Little Leaf

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 12:44

I think Williams stand a good chance of getting near the top 10. I expect both FI and STR to fall back simply because they were able to buy downforce by optimising the EBD. Vergne will amaze us in just how overrated he is. I'd expect Williams' chassis to be on par with the Lotus. Sauber is an imponderable since they never spent resource on EBD optimisation but they didn't make great strides on aero development.


Williams have the potential to be in front of all of those teams (Renault, STR, Sauber, FI).

McLaren, Red Bull, Ferrari and to a lesser extent Merc are to my mind out of reach at the moment.

Williams should be aiming to slot in just behind them as a realistic target. Whether they do or not is another matter!

#671 sheogorath

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 13:20

You mean driving into other cars on purpose? If that's your kind of excitment, well, enjoy, I hope he won't hurt anyone with his "excitment".


People seem to find it exciting when Hamilton and Kobayashi do that. :p

#672 The Jim Clark Five

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 14:04

for williams in 2012, the car is a lot more important than the drivers. If its another stinker then signing Alonso and Vettel as their drivers would make no difference.

#673 One

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 14:45

Like he was convinced about Nakajima?


Some time it is bitter to accept the reality, that appears in front of me. :smoking: Perhaps that is just my personal feeling as I have no in depth knowledge in what Senna can do. Honestly i was surprised about Pastor, even if he did no perform more than what we have seen.

Speaking about Nakajima, he did fine against Nico, who was put down so many timed by forum.




#674 KoezhVukotic

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 15:01

Some time it is bitter to accept the reality, that appears in front of me. :smoking: Perhaps that is just my personal feeling as I have no in depth knowledge in what Senna can do. Honestly i was surprised about Pastor, even if he did no perform more than what we have seen.

Speaking about Nakajima, he did fine against Nico, who was put down so many timed by forum.

Did you watch 09? 34.5 points to 0. Admittedly Nakajima had some bad luck but I couldn't have seen him scoring more than 5 points or so. When you consider that Rosberg didn't even have a great season with costly errors that makes it even worse

#675 highdownforce

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 15:12

OSX (whatever that is) is another new sponsor of Bruno's

OGX, is Eike Batista's (see on wikipedia when it gets back on air) oil company under his EBX group.
They're already sponsoring Bruno at Lotus [ image ].
New sponsors are Head&Shoulders, that is a P&G's brand just like Gillette (and also a long time Rubens sponsor) and MRV Engenharia.

So, full list is: Embratel, OGX, Gillette, Head&Shoulders and MRV Engenharia.

QNB would have been nice but that appears to have fallen off the radar now

No news about that, and it was not commented here in Brazil neither.

Edited by highdownforce, 18 January 2012 - 15:13.


#676 kosmos

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 15:26

All this time talking about how important was Rubens experience for the team and now they have Maldonado and Senna, drivers that barely briing any experience. I don't wanna be mean anyway. Good luck to Williams.

#677 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 15:28

Did you watch 09? 34.5 points to 0. Admittedly Nakajima had some bad luck but I couldn't have seen him scoring more than 5 points or so. When you consider that Rosberg didn't even have a great season with costly errors that makes it even worse


Kaz had a lot of speed, but he kept making stupid errors, and he never matured.

#678 Mastah

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 15:42

From 2007 announcement:

Frank Williams: “Nico will be ably partnered by Kazuki, who has impressed the team over the past year. He has pace and the right attitude to develop into a competitive Formula One racer and over the course of the next season, we will provide him with all the necessary support and assistance to hone his talents.”


I'm not quite sure he had pace ;).




:lol: You are such a clown... :)
In which things were I wrong, if I may ask? :)

(lot of text)


Force India should keep Sutil - nope, they fired him
Toro Rosso should keep Buemi and Alguersuari - nope, they fired them

2-0 for teams and my predictions. You lose.

I don't want to call you names, but since you just called me clown, listen: you are making yourself looking like a real clown by your unwillingness to accept the reality, and the reality is you, with your positions, averages etc., were completely wrong about things I mentioned above. If you don't have balls to admit it, fine, keep trying to deceive yourself. I have no problems with saying I was wrong with predicting Force India would be behind Lotus last year or that Italian GP would be the last one for Jarno. But in real world people who actually run F1 teams, not fans who have no access to a lot of data, took decisions I agree with and the ones I was in favour of long before they were made. I don't know, maybe you should create some Fantasy F1 Championship, where you could run things as you want, but I will stick to real F1 world. The end.

#679 One

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 16:09

Did you watch 09? 34.5 points to 0. Admittedly Nakajima had some bad luck but I couldn't have seen him scoring more than 5 points or so. When you consider that Rosberg didn't even have a great season with costly errors that makes it even worse


Now the situation that I am in is transforming from a bitter moon to a tank full of terrible wine grapes. i just need to wait and see what will happen.

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#680 Petroltorque

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 16:49

Too many posters are just willing to accept the opinion of hackneyed F1 journos as fact. A lot of nonsense was written about Maldonado not being good enough for the Williams seat. What I saw was a driver with a good turn of speed who didn't make many mistakes, Brazil and Spa apart. And Spa was payback for what Hamilton did in Monaco not the kerfuffle into the " Bus Stop" ( yes I know the Bus Stop no longer exists). As for experience aiding setup. The car's setup has 90% dialed in on the simulator BEFORE they hit the track. A driver is refining that last 10% with the race engineer. Williams have signed one of the best race engineers in Mark Gillan.

Edited by Petroltorque, 18 January 2012 - 16:51.


#681 Sanman59

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 17:13

Too many posters are just willing to accept the opinion of hackneyed F1 journos as fact. A lot of nonsense was written about Maldonado not being good enough for the Williams seat. What I saw was a driver with a good turn of speed who didn't make many mistakes, Brazil and Spa apart. And Spa was payback for what Hamilton did in Monaco not the kerfuffle into the " Bus Stop" ( yes I know the Bus Stop no longer exists). As for experience aiding setup. The car's setup has 90% dialed in on the simulator BEFORE they hit the track. A driver is refining that last 10% with the race engineer. Williams have signed one of the best race engineers in Mark Gillan.


Well said that Man! :up:

#682 Little Leaf

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 18:46

Some nice comments in this article about Bruno

http://www.bbc.co.uk...runo_senna.html

#683 Ben H

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 20:22

OSX (whatever that is) is another new sponsor of Bruno's

Interesting to see Macgregor still on the shirt, are they staying on for 2012 anybody know?

Will be interesting to see which of these new sponsors actually make it onto the car. I presume Embratel will be on there, not so sure about the others.

QNB would have been nice but that appears to have fallen off the radar now


Well well mixed feelings sad the decision has the appearence of being motivated by money, but glad to see Senna keeps a seat in F1, and for what its worth I think he may be good - this is a British F3 champion, and like he said yesterday, now with the chance of a full programme of testing before the season. Very hard to judge him from the half season last year with no testing....

I was just thinking, if Williams are still going down the route of retro liveries, wouldn't this be an apposite time to depoly the old Canon/Camel yellow/blue/white scheme? I thought those cars were absolutely gorgeous, preferred them over the Rothmans cars. And maybe could be made appropriate to the South American infleunce Williams now have with drivers and sponsors - yellow and blue in the Brazillian and Venuzulan flags I believe? And it would be a great thing on the 20th anniversary of a car that was breathtakingly technological and dominant, the FW14B. If you thought last years Red Bull was good.............

Heres hoping the good times roll for Williams soon will be always rooting for them!


#684 Little Leaf

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 06:20

Well well mixed feelings sad the decision has the appearence of being motivated by money, but glad to see Senna keeps a seat in F1, and for what its worth I think he may be good - this is a British F3 champion, and like he said yesterday, now with the chance of a full programme of testing before the season. Very hard to judge him from the half season last year with no testing....

I was just thinking, if Williams are still going down the route of retro liveries, wouldn't this be an apposite time to depoly the old Canon/Camel yellow/blue/white scheme? I thought those cars were absolutely gorgeous, preferred them over the Rothmans cars. And maybe could be made appropriate to the South American infleunce Williams now have with drivers and sponsors - yellow and blue in the Brazillian and Venuzulan flags I believe? And it would be a great thing on the 20th anniversary of a car that was breathtakingly technological and dominant, the FW14B. If you thought last years Red Bull was good.............

Heres hoping the good times roll for Williams soon will be always rooting for them!


I don't think he won the British F3 title did he? Took a few wins in 2006 I think it was, but came 3rd in the end?

Or am I missing something?

#685 IceSkyrim

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 07:25

OSX (whatever that is) is another new sponsor of Bruno's

OGX

#686 Francesc

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:25

I find interesting that the team hasn't officially announced the new sponsors (Senna's) yet. I hope they're waiting for the car launch hopefully in Qatar. :smoking:

#687 Little Leaf

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 09:55

I find interesting that the team hasn't officially announced the new sponsors (Senna's) yet. I hope they're waiting for the car launch hopefully in Qatar. :smoking:


Yeah, maybe they want to announce them all together (hopefully with QNB  ;) )

All his sponsors were present on his shirt when they annouonced him, as you would expect

#688 One

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 10:01

OGX


Are they suporting Williams or only Bruno? Timewill tell Iguess...

#689 Clatter

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 12:54

OGX


I assumed it was this company.
OSX


#690 highdownforce

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 15:36

Are they suporting Williams or only Bruno? Timewill tell Iguess...

Williams, just like at Lotus.

I assumed it was this company.
OSX

Both are EBX Group's companies. OGX is the offshore oil drilling company and OSX is the shipbuilding one.
At the moment, all OSX production is addressed to supply OGX with floating production systems.

Edited by highdownforce, 19 January 2012 - 15:45.


#691 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 15:37

Are they suporting Williams or only Bruno? Timewill tell Iguess...


If they want any kind of branding on the car or overalls, Williams.

#692 Clatter

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 17:40

Both are EBX Group's companies. OGX is the offshore oil drilling company and OSX is the shipbuilding one.
At the moment, all OSX production is addressed to supply OGX with floating production systems.


I now have no idea who the X is the sponsor. :p

#693 Ben H

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 17:52

I don't think he won the British F3 title did he? Took a few wins in 2006 I think it was, but came 3rd in the end?

Or am I missing something?



No nothing, just my memory getting worse - I had him down in my head as the winner of that FOR SURE! Still, at least Bruno will be able to content himself with his crushing victory in GP2 and his epic win first time out in the Hispania. Oh, hang on......... :drunk:

#694 IceSkyrim

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 19:43

I now have no idea who the X is the sponsor. :p

Oh, nevermind :well:

There are other companies in the holding like:

MMX - Minning
LLX - Logistics
RJX - Volleyball


#695 Clatter

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 19:46

Oh, nevermind :well:

There are other companies in the holding like:

MMX - Minning
LLX - Logistics
RJX - Volleyball


Sense of humour bypass? :rolleyes:


#696 MustangSally

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 20:58

In the hope of adding some objectivity to the debate. Does one feel Williams' performance is driver limited or car limited.

If the performance is car limited, then Williams need funding to optimise transmission, KERS, Aero and new engine installation. When last I looked Williams had to sign a major sponsor and don't look like achieving that in the near future.

No I'm afraid just on a commercial basis the Senna deal is the obvious one


For me, this is the most relevant comment on this thread. Williams business model is about doing all this stuff in house . . . KERS, transmission, hydraulics, you name it. And employing more than twice the head count of its midfield rivals. Not cheap. Well, but that's the way the big teams do it.

For that, Williams either needs funding or it has to change its business model.

What is clear at the moment is that Williams has not properly utilised its 'top team' in-house resources . . for quite a while. With funding, and people like Gillan and Coughlan, maybe this will now work out.

The dilemma at the moment is that the funding these days is not coming from Baugur, Philips or RBS, it's from people who influence driver choice.

I agree totally with Petroltorque. The alternative to Senna's millions was downsizing and becoming a 'customer parts' team. That's ok for 7th or 6th in WCC, but no higher.





#697 Little Leaf

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 06:19

For me, this is the most relevant comment on this thread. Williams business model is about doing all this stuff in house . . . KERS, transmission, hydraulics, you name it. And employing more than twice the head count of its midfield rivals. Not cheap. Well, but that's the way the big teams do it.

For that, Williams either needs funding or it has to change its business model.

What is clear at the moment is that Williams has not properly utilised its 'top team' in-house resources . . for quite a while. With funding, and people like Gillan and Coughlan, maybe this will now work out.

The dilemma at the moment is that the funding these days is not coming from Baugur, Philips or RBS, it's from people who influence driver choice.

I agree totally with Petroltorque. The alternative to Senna's millions was downsizing and becoming a 'customer parts' team. That's ok for 7th or 6th in WCC, but no higher.


Exactly, if a team has ambitions of getting back to the front (as I believe Williams do contrary to what some people write on here) then you should be looking for any advantage you can get.

Buying the back end of your car from Red Bull or McLaren will bring you forward (in the case of Caterham) or help you to reduce costs (in the case of FI) but there is no way going this route will ever get you above 5th in the championship. If that is all you are aiming for then fine

#698 Ben H

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 13:46

For me, this is the most relevant comment on this thread. Williams business model is about doing all this stuff in house . . . KERS, transmission, hydraulics, you name it. And employing more than twice the head count of its midfield rivals. Not cheap. Well, but that's the way the big teams do it.

For that, Williams either needs funding or it has to change its business model.

What is clear at the moment is that Williams has not properly utilised its 'top team' in-house resources . . for quite a while. With funding, and people like Gillan and Coughlan, maybe this will now work out.

The dilemma at the moment is that the funding these days is not coming from Baugur, Philips or RBS, it's from people who influence driver choice.

I agree totally with Petroltorque. The alternative to Senna's millions was downsizing and becoming a 'customer parts' team. That's ok for 7th or 6th in WCC, but no higher.



I agree with this, and always really admired Williams for refusing to throw in the towel, and their corinthian sprit of sticking with the only way that could win them the World Championship. But.....I'm not as optimistic with Williams as I used to be due to the politics and rumblings from the gradual break up of FOTA. I was very optimistic around 2009 that things were really swinging Williams' way, with the testing ban, standardised engines, manufacturers leaving resource caps.....I thought they would have all the advantages of their in house innovation and capablities, to give them those crucial last few tenths, without being blown away by the budget of Ferrari or a big car manufacturer. I have to say I'm nervous about the way the resource restriction agreement seems to be coming apart at the seams, because if it turns into a real arms race again with unlimited testing, spending, resources and the likes of Ferrari and Red Bull seriously turn on the taps, I can't see how it can be good for Williams. It could well be a double blow to them, because the bigger funded teams may be able to increase the gap to Williams, and filter much of the (potentially even more superior) kit down to Force India, Toro Rosso, Marissa and the rest the next year...

I think it was Tony Dodgins who wrote a few weeks ago that Mclaren would be well advised to go with Honda, as 'factory' engines and integration with the cars would be more important as things are 'unfrozen' and we have the new engines and energy recovery kit by 2014. Great to see Williams with Renault again, but no factory deal or exclusivity, and I couldn't blame the Regie for making Red Bull their number one team...

I hope I am being unduly pessimistic, and wrong though!

#699 Mastah

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 14:22

Super slim gearboxes have been in vogue for many years, Last year Williams upped the stakes with a super low gearbox. The normally empty structure above the gear cluster was removed and the rear suspension mounted to the rear wing pillar. Williams have this design again for 2012, albeit made somewhat lighter. With the mandatory rear biased weight distribution the weight penalty for this design is not a compromise, while the improved air flow the wing is especially useful in 2012. So it’s likely the new cars will follow the low gearbox and low differential mounting in some form.

http://scarbsf1.word...gns-and-trends/



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#700 One

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Posted 20 January 2012 - 15:19

Interesting.

Many says that the gear box was the cause of slow 33 and therefore Sam is solely responsible for it. But if we take a step back and look about engine front, Sam said also an interesting thing, namely engine block gave them a limit.

Cossy choice was an integral choice mandated and perhaps reassured by old FIA about its competitiveness, which gave Williams a chance to gamble to become 'works' cossy team. This in one way or the other limited the bulk of development races during the 2011 season, had Cossy being more informed on clod blowing and properly funded for it, this gamble could have been worked. On the contrary this was untrue.

After all with Renault it could have been the same, but drifting down to ninth would have not been the case.

Engine choice for the new reg might be the real make or break for the Williams, for which I hope that the teams are already working on it.