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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#101 Little Leaf

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:26

Randstad extend and upgrade sponsorship for next year

http://www.attwillia.../news/view/2022

What's with the new sponsor Hatch, was it just for 1 race?

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#102 FTATRWeSaluteYou

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:30

Williams really started to lose their way after they rejected tobacco sponsorship sooner than was necessary.

#103 Petroltorque

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 07:27

Tobacco sponsorship had nothing to do with it. The problem was they persevered with poor designers and refused to accept that they were not up to the job. They've only just addressed the problem, but they're so far off the pace its embarrassing.

#104 One

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:52

I think Sutil has been a LOT more exciting in recent months... perhaps to show off his wares to other teams. If he can maintain his current form Williams would be stupid NOT to snap him up, either if the Raikkonen deal comes off or doesn't (Raikkonen and Sutil would be a great pairing)


I hear that Sutil is not too good in giving feed back. it seems that Kimi doe scare about pointy car, Kinda point on which team can say more about it, ... Imagine if Sutil does not like to drive a pointy car next to Kimi. Rubinho, I think he is great, as he knows how to fix it up.

#105 marcoferrari

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 08:56

I hear that Sutil is not too good in giving feed back. it seems that Kimi doe scare about pointy car, Kinda point on which team can say more about it, ... Imagine if Sutil does not like to drive a pointy car next to Kimi. Rubinho, I think he is great, as he knows how to fix it up.


Then it is even more outstanding how he drove this and last year...

#106 Clatter

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:06

I hear that Sutil is not too good in giving feed back. it seems that Kimi doe scare about pointy car, Kinda point on which team can say more about it, ... Imagine if Sutil does not like to drive a pointy car next to Kimi. Rubinho, I think he is great, as he knows how to fix it up.


Where have you heard this?

#107 marcoferrari

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:16

Where have you heard this?


Joe Saward said that... :)

#108 One

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:13

Joe Saward said that... :)


I should (coulda Woulda) have noted that I read...


Never heard of anyone speaking it to me.
besides, Joe is a Liuzzi fan,... :yawnface:
Joe is cool tho :smoking:

#109 OSX

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:05

Jonathan Noble (Autosport):

Favourite quote of the GP? Patrick Head on talk that BOTTAS could be in at Williams "There is talk of the moon being made of green cheese.."

http://twitter.com/#!/NobleF1/status/141017918849822722


#110 Little Leaf

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:12

Jonathan Noble (Autosport):

Favourite quote of the GP? Patrick Head on talk that BOTTAS could be in at Williams "There is talk of the moon being made of green cheese.."

http://twitter.com/#!/NobleF1/status/141017918849822722


I don't think he ever had a serious shout of that seat. Just being used to put pressure on Kimi and Sutil probably.

Think it will end up being Sutil and Maldonado now, unless Rubens has found some cash

#111 Anderis

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:32

What's with the new sponsor Hatch, was it just for 1 race?

No, they are with the team since India GP AFAIR. I even have written about that in the FW33's thread. It looks like they will be medium sponsor for the team and I think they will stay at least until the end of 2012 (but may far longer).

#112 OSX

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:40

I don't think he ever had a serious shout of that seat. Just being used to put pressure on Kimi and Sutil probably.

Think it will end up being Sutil and Maldonado now, unless Rubens has found some cash

Maybe so but Patrick's comment is pure gold!


#113 marcoferrari

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 11:50

Jonathan Noble (Autosport):

Favourite quote of the GP? Patrick Head on talk that BOTTAS could be in at Williams "There is talk of the moon being made of green cheese.."

http://twitter.com/#!/NobleF1/status/141017918849822722


Bottas? No wonder that Williams is sinking in problems... How many mistakes or strange decisions have they made? Nakajima, Cosworth and Maldonado are the recent ones...

#114 OSX

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:11

Bottas? No wonder that Williams is sinking in problems... How many mistakes or strange decisions have they made? Nakajima, Cosworth and Maldonado are the recent ones...

Huh? Patrick Head just shot down the rumour there.

#115 Sevach

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 13:32

What's with the new sponsor Hatch, was it just for 1 race?


Their place is on the front suspension arm, kinda hard to spot.


#116 Little Leaf

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 13:55

Their place is on the front suspension arm, kinda hard to spot.


Considering Williams had more TV exposure in the Brazilian GP than the rest of the season put together it's no wonder it was the first time many people had seen it

#117 Sevach

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 15:31

Bottas? No wonder that Williams is sinking in problems... How many mistakes or strange decisions have they made? Nakajima, Cosworth and Maldonado are the recent ones...


Bottas is a promising driver.

Of course then the team would have 2 inexperienced drivers, but that is different problem, it is unfair to blame Bottas for that.

#118 Anderis

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 15:42

Sauber proved at first half this season that there is no need of having an experienced driver on board to do really well.

Bottas is one of the most promising young drivers and he can become one of better drivers in F1 next few years.

But for 2012 I would rather prefer Sutil. However: Kimi, Sutil, Rubens or Bottas, all are far better choices than for example Van der Garde, who was strongly linked with Williams 2012 seat before rumours about Kimi had started. Luckily, it seems it is between Sutil, Rubens or Bottas if negotiations with Kimi actually has fallen.

#119 Sevach

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 01:43

Anyway i would prefer for them to come out and tell us already, be it Raikkonen, Sutil, Bottas or Rubens.

Edited by Sevach, 29 November 2011 - 01:43.


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#120 Little Leaf

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 05:38

It's got to be either (considering Maldonado is a shoe in)

Sutil and Maldonado

or

Rubens and Maldonado

if the Kimi deal has fallen through.

Bottas should do at least 1 season in GP2 or F3.5 and see how he gets on with a view to F1 in 2013 or 2014

#121 Petroltorque

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:18

Hmm Sutil. His improving performance coincided with Force India's perfection of the off throttle blown diffuser, meaning they could generate way more downforce than their immediate competitors. That option is no longer available. How well is Sutil going to cope with a moderate car?
Ideally what Williams need is a Tier 1 driver. It does not now look like they're going to get one. I'd say put in young Bottas, any rookie is going to take time to find his feet, so lets do it now in a development year. Gillan's approach is for engineers to drive development and experience has not worked for the team this year.

#122 Little Leaf

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:29

Hmm Sutil. His improving performance coincided with Force India's perfection of the off throttle blown diffuser, meaning they could generate way more downforce than their immediate competitors. That option is no longer available. How well is Sutil going to cope with a moderate car?
Ideally what Williams need is a Tier 1 driver. It does not now look like they're going to get one. I'd say put in young Bottas, any rookie is going to take time to find his feet, so lets do it now in a development year. Gillan's approach is for engineers to drive development and experience has not worked for the team this year.


Good grief, give the guy a chance, he has only been there a couple of months. He has had the worst car in Williams' history to work with and a new design team. The absolute earliest you can judge him is based on next years' results.

As for Bottas I think it's too early for him. Sutil is the better option, blown diffuser or not he is quick. Saying his improvement is down to the blown diffuser doesn't mean he can't do it without it.

The best driver combo available would be Sutil and Rubens, but it probably won't happen as they need Maldonados money

With Kimi signing for Lotus I assume the QNB deal is dead for Williams?

#123 Petroltorque

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:37

Good grief, give the guy a chance, he has only been there a couple of months. He has had the worst car in Williams' history to work with and a new design team. The absolute earliest you can judge him is based on next years' results.

As for Bottas I think it's too early for him. Sutil is the better option, blown diffuser or not he is quick. Saying his improvement is down to the blown diffuser doesn't mean he can't do it without it.

The best driver combo available would be Sutil and Rubens, but it probably won't happen as they need Maldonados money

With Kimi signing for Lotus I assume the QNB deal is dead for Williams?

Please allow me to clarify my statement. I meant DRIVER EXPERIENCE!!! Mark Gillan is a top drawer vehicle dynamicist. He's aleady worked miracles with the shopping trolley he was handed. I repeat Gillan is the dog's bollocks of chassis engineers!
I know people think putting a rookie in the car is risky, but one advantage is that he's more likely to follow the engineers direction than have preconcieved perceptions on setup, The other thing is now the chassis is THE performance differentiator, money saved by hiring a rookie can then be ploughed into chassis developmemt.
As an aside Raikkonen has just announced a 2 year deal with Lotus Renault.

Edited by Petroltorque, 29 November 2011 - 07:41.


#124 Little Leaf

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:39

Please allow me to clarify my statement. I meant DRIVER EXPERIENCE!!! Mark Gillan is a top drawer vehicle dynamicist. He's aleady worked miracles withe the shopping trolley he was handed. I repeat Gillan is the dog's bollocks of chassis engineers!


Sorry, reading your statement again I see what you mean!

Hopefully he can pull something out of the bag for next year

#125 Sevach

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 08:32

The opportunity at a (possible, can't be sure after 2 years) tier 1 driver went by, a little sad.

My first impression of Gillan has been very positive.
The car did show improvement under him, and without the team simply shoving "upgrades" into it like used to happen under Michael.
While he doesn't actually design the car, he seems to have a great understanding of what it needs, that should be a great help.

Hopefully his addition wasn't too late for the FW34.

#126 Rinehart

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 08:53

I reckon Williams have dodged a bullet missing out on Kimi.
No sense going for a guy who was great in 2005.
Williams need a strong baseline from which they can target the Mercedes/FI pace before they can think seriously about attracting a topline driver.

#127 Sevach

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 09:11

Well... Kubica will be on the market, should we start all over again :drunk:

#128 roadie

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 10:00

I guess Rubens is in a stronger bargaining position now! Essentially it's him or whoever FI discard.

Kubica would have been an awesome Williams driver. However, he would need a larger pay-cheque than Rubens, and who knows what he'll be like now?

#129 Sevach

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 10:10

Rubens position sure didn't get any weaker...

I was just joking about Kubica... or not :p

#130 Little Leaf

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 12:08

Rubens position sure didn't get any weaker...

I was just joking about Kubica... or not :p


It's now a straight fight between Sutil and Rubens in my opinion.

#131 Marley

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 14:58

Riccardo -Williams would be a nice combo with some Redbull Money

#132 cbbcisace

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 15:13

Riccardo -Williams would be a nice combo with some Redbull Money


Not think Senna will get the drive? he comes with some handy sponsorship and proved himself for this season.

Edited by cbbcisace, 29 November 2011 - 15:14.


#133 Petroltorque

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 15:40

Riccardo -Williams would be a nice combo with some Redbull Money

I think if Williams start developping drivers for its immediate competitors it confirms a terminal decline. They're better off identifying promising talent and bringing them on themselves.

#134 marcoferrari

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 16:06

Not think Senna will get the drive? he comes with some handy sponsorship and proved himself for this season.


Why should only money talk again? They have already one paid driver and need to have one who can score points... Sutil is definitely the best candidate... Rubens isn t at top form any more... But still I would have choose him instead of Maldonado, who didn t impress me at all...

#135 Gyan

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 18:15

Adrian Sutil should be signed ASAP imo.

#136 seltaeb

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 18:54

Why, where else is there for him to go if Williams don't want him?

#137 Sevach

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 19:03

Maldonado is in, no sense in arguing that.

I'm a bit torn about Rubens, while i think he is a better driver than Sutil, i also think he didn't bring his "a" game this season.
Is that because he doesn't have it anymore? Or because he gave up due to a poor car?

Either way it makes me trust him a bit less.



#138 onewingedangel

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 19:20

Maldonado is in, no sense in arguing that.


If another driver can bring a big enough sponsor to replace PDVSA then it both avoids any risk/embarassment of the investigation into the funding arrangements and having to deal with Chavez.

That said, short of Rubens/Bruno securing Petrobras, it's unlikely such a large deal could be brought along.

Edited by onewingedangel, 29 November 2011 - 19:21.


#139 KoezhVukotic

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 19:49

Maldonado is in, no sense in arguing that.

I'm a bit torn about Rubens, while i think he is a better driver than Sutil, i also think he didn't bring his "a" game this season.
Is that because he doesn't have it anymore? Or because he gave up due to a poor car?

Either way it makes me trust him a bit less.

I wouldn't say qualifying 12th at Brazil and finishing 12th at Abu Dhabi is giving up. Certainly towards the end of the season Rubens was having some great drives

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#140 highdownforce

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 21:24

That said, short of Rubens/Bruno securing Petrobras, it's unlikely such a large deal could be brought along.

Petrobras don't sponsor drivers, they want a lubricant deal for Lubrax and a technical partnership with an engine manufacturer.
This would lead to dropping Total as Renault partner and totally a new engine program.

#141 Tiakumosan

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 21:44

Petrobras don't sponsor drivers, they want a lubricant deal for Lubrax and a technical partnership with an engine manufacturer.
This would lead to dropping Total as Renault partner and totally a new engine program.


I read they want to come back in 2014 (http://esportes.terr...ustivel em.html).

#142 Sevach

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 21:52

I wouldn't say qualifying 12th at Brazil and finishing 12th at Abu Dhabi is giving up. Certainly towards the end of the season Rubens was having some great drives


That's exactly what makes me say that, mid season he was getting spanked by Pastor every weekend, and near the end, when he felt the need to show he still had what it takes for 1 more season/contract... Rubens stepped up a notch.

Left me with a feeling that he gave up mid season, to be honest.

Also, Williams will not dump five years of PDVSA for 1 year of Petrobras (deal which won't happen anyway), everything points to Maldonado staying, accept it.

Edited by Sevach, 29 November 2011 - 21:58.


#143 KoezhVukotic

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 22:00

That's exactly what makes me say that, mid season he was getting spanked by Pastor every weekend, and near the end, when he felt the need to show he still had what it takes for 1 more season/contract... Rubens stepped up a notch.

Left me with a feeling that he gave up mid season, to be honest.

Also, Williams will not dump five years of PDVSA for 1 year of Petrobras (deal which won't happen anyway), everything points to Maldonado staying, accept it.

Yeah maybe in the mid-season but not at the start or end I think.
And I agree on the PDVSA stuff

#144 Sevach

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 22:07

Agreed, that was an impressive qualy last saturday for ex, but mid season was a low for me.
Maybe with a better car Rubens is gonna show more consistency.

#145 Little Leaf

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 05:51

Well it's well known that Rubens is a bit more emotionally affected by happenings in F1, be them with his car performance or whatever.

If given a decent enough car I think he can perform as in 2010 still. Which was good

#146 roadie

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:43

Agreed.

#147 One

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 09:49

So is Sutil now also available for Williams now, for sure? Or should he wants to stay at FI more so now? Lots has to be cleared up.

Sutil, Rubens, Maldonado.

1. Maldonado comes with PDVSA money. If not is he worth his performance?
2. Rubens got one more year, I personally think, and bring the team up.
3. Sutil has speed, if he is available then get him. He also comes with Medion, presumably...

What is for me not clear is about PDVSA deal. Should Williams want to maintain the financial backing, yes for sure, but should they count on it, no it is not.


#148 Little Leaf

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:25

So is Sutil now also available for Williams now, for sure? Or should he wants to stay at FI more so now? Lots has to be cleared up.

Sutil, Rubens, Maldonado.

1. Maldonado comes with PDVSA money. If not is he worth his performance?
2. Rubens got one more year, I personally think, and bring the team up.
3. Sutil has speed, if he is available then get him. He also comes with Medion, presumably...

What is for me not clear is about PDVSA deal. Should Williams want to maintain the financial backing, yes for sure, but should they count on it, no it is not.


There are still so many questions regarding sponsors for next year that have an affect on the driver choice

1. Is the PDVSA deal OK? If so Maldonado will be kept on. If not is it worth keeping him?
2. Is the QNB deal now dead since Kimi is no longer available? If it's still a go-er do they want a say in driver choice?
3. Depending on what happens to the above, Sutil may become a necessity with his backing

I would like to see a deal with QNB, Rubens and Sutil driving. No idea if/could it happen though

#149 Francesc

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:27

Hire Senna and his money, for me he's the best speed/money package. I'm sure that with a full pre-season testing he would be fast.

#150 One

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:34

I question if Sutil is available, even to negotiate. Fi seems to be thinking long about it. At the end f the day Sutil may not be available
Senna, with his name, and the speed potential he shown this year could be worth. He is available as Lotus-Reno talks about Kubica and has Pet on the board already.

Senna-Rubens perfect pair for QNB.