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Williams 2012 - FW34 Renault


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#151 Petroltorque

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 13:57

Examining the calculus, Williams have lost money by only finishing ninth. Adam Parr stated at the start that Williams' business plan was dependent on finishing above sixth in the championship. A Renault engine deal costs about euro 20 million. One sees the importance of the PDVSA deal.
I'd consider Grosjean, on average half a second down on Alonso in a difficult car. In all probability he's improved further in the intervening years.

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#152 Andy865

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 14:06

Inclined to agree with PT on this one.

Growjohn is bloody rapid in whatever he steps in. Give him 6 days testing and youll have a decent package.

Could he be run in a two year old car fora day or two as well?

#153 highdownforce

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 14:34

I question if Sutil is available, even to negotiate. Fi seems to be thinking long about it. At the end f the day Sutil may not be available
Senna, with his name, and the speed potential he shown this year could be worth. He is available as Lotus-Reno talks about Kubica and has Pet on the board already.

Senna-Rubens perfect pair for QNB.

Funilly enough, it's rumored that Qatar Foundation and Etihad Airways would be interested on buying the naming rights for the new Brazilian football stadium informally known as Itaquerão.
This stadium will host the opening game of the 2014 World Cup in Brazil and this deal would be a way to showcase Qatar 2022 WC. This stadium will after the WC be the home stadium of Sport Club Corinthians.

Now, guess the name of two drivers of the current F1 field that are Corinthians supporters!





But it'll never going to happen, of course.

#154 intothepits

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 19:33

You've got to be joking with Grosjean, he's nothing special. Rubens beat 2 GP2 champs for 2 years running in '10 and '11, and you want Grosjean in replacement, just because he is young... I don't know the details on his backing, but I guess he brings that aswell then?

Rubens is the man for the job, experience and speed, which would prove well in a car better than the FW33. What do you get with Grosjean, money and backing perhaps.

On top of that he must have built a repor with the team and engineers in the last two years, and the performance is no fault of Rubens or any driver, it's simply the fault of those responsible in the design of the car, and an unorganized team, where certain people or a person... was doing to much for one position.

If the FW34 comes good, and is similar to the FW32, then I expect to see a very solid season from rubens like 2010, the first GP2 champ he beat at the season end, you know.. Hulkenburg.

It sounds cliche now, but the experience he has will also help any car that wants developing. And some critics here say... Where was Rubens feedback for the FW33, again, not his fault the car was born and remained bad, he did all he could in the car that was given.

Edited by intothepits, 30 November 2011 - 19:36.


#155 Petroltorque

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 05:43

You've got to be joking with Grosjean, he's nothing special. Rubens beat 2 GP2 champs for 2 years running in '10 and '11, and you want Grosjean in replacement, just because he is young... I don't know the details on his backing, but I guess he brings that aswell then?

Rubens is the man for the job, experience and speed, which would prove well in a car better than the FW33. What do you get with Grosjean, money and backing perhaps.

On top of that he must have built a repor with the team and engineers in the last two years, and the performance is no fault of Rubens or any driver, it's simply the fault of those responsible in the design of the car, and an unorganized team, where certain people or a person... was doing to much for one position.

If the FW34 comes good, and is similar to the FW32, then I expect to see a very solid season from rubens like 2010, the first GP2 champ he beat at the season end, you know.. Hulkenburg.

It sounds cliche now, but the experience he has will also help any car that wants developing. And some critics here say... Where was Rubens feedback for the FW33, again, not his fault the car was born and remained bad, he did all he could in the car that was given.

You rant on about experirence, but for all Barrichello's experience it failed to help the team. Why is that? Because no driver develops the car thats the job of the tech staff. Yes he beat 2 rookies but even rookies take time to establish themselves so a more experienced driver will have an advantage. How many championships or races did Barrichello win when he had championship winning machinery in 2002, 2004 and 2009? Williams need someone who's head not going to drop when things are going badly. There's no place for sentiment in the business of F1!

Edited by Petroltorque, 01 December 2011 - 07:38.


#156 Little Leaf

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 05:52

Well no drivers have been annoounced on the provisional 2012 entry list for Williams.

Shows that there are questions maybe on the Maldonado/PDVSA deal

#157 Sevach

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:25

You rant on about experirence, but for all Barrichello's experience it failed to help the team. Why is that? Because no driver develops the car thats the job of the tech staff. Yes he beat 2 rookies but even rookies take time to establish themselves so a more experienced driver will have an advantage. How many championships or races did Barrichello win when he had championship winning machinery in 2002, 2004 and 2009? Williams need someone who's head not going to drop when things are going badly. There's no place for sentiment in the business of F1!


You summed up my thoughts.
The car is bad? put your head down and drive the wheels off of it.
Not giving all you got is not ok.



#158 joora

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:42

You summed up my thoughts.
The car is bad? put your head down and drive the wheels off of it.
Not giving all you got is not ok.


In that respect I think Maldonado did better than Rubens. He was trying even when it was obvious that the car is bad. Sure, he made (too much) stupid mistakes, but if he manages to control his red mist outbursts and learn from the mistakes, he could do well next year.

But I would like to see Sutil & Bottas next year. Go all new and fresh. Tie Bottas with a long term contract and give him a go. If it doesn't work out, they could always put Senna/Petrov/Grosjean or somebody else available in the middle of the season.

Edited by joora, 01 December 2011 - 09:43.


#159 Little Leaf

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:15

Jonathan Noble (Autosport):

Favourite quote of the GP? Patrick Head on talk that BOTTAS could be in at Williams "There is talk of the moon being made of green cheese.."

http://twitter.com/#!/NobleF1/status/141017918849822722


According to Patrick Head there is little chance of Bottas driving in F1 next year for Williams

But then Patrick Head isn't involved in the F1 side of things anymore

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#160 Sevach

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:21

In that respect I think Maldonado did better than Rubens. He was trying even when it was obvious that the car is bad. Sure, he made (too much) stupid mistakes, but if he manages to control his red mist outbursts and learn from the mistakes, he could do well next year.

But I would like to see Sutil & Bottas next year. Go all new and fresh. Tie Bottas with a long term contract and give him a go. If it doesn't work out, they could always put Senna/Petrov/Grosjean or somebody else available in the middle of the season.

I agree, Maldonado can have a good season on a better car and he never gave up.

Sutil-Bottas sounds like an interesting lineup honestly, but i don't think it's gonna happen.
Head might not be directly involved, but i bet he still got Frank's ear.


#161 Lamag

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 14:34

Williams-Renault FW 34, I have high expectation with the new FW34 now that the loser of Sam Michael have left the team.

#162 DanardiF1

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 16:56

I think Williams have to look for performance in their 'lead' seat. Money helps of course, and there are 'performance' drivers (those who don't outright buy their seats) who do also bring a bit of money as well, so I would go for:

(these would only be if Barrichello is a no-go, because I still think he's got time in him yet.)

Sutil would be my first choice, in that he's a lead driver who has come into form in the last year or so, has experience and actually does bring some personal sponsors with him (though he's been in F1 on performance).

Senna would be a good choice as well. Good commercial opportunities, both with his current sponsors and the Senna-Williams combination, which is emotionally powerful for many people. Has had good speed with limited time he had in the car (outshone Petrov by my view of it) and with proper testing time and a full schedule could really do something in F1. Very eloquent man and would represent Williams really well.

Grosjean would be my next choice. Not much F1 experience, and not much personal backing, but whenever he's sat in a car in the last 18 months he's flew. Seems to be a lot more mature since his 2009 experience, where he was only about 0.5 seconds off Alonso (that's better than Massa can do most weekends...) and really seems to want to make a better shot of F1 second time around. Knows the Renault engines...






#163 ApexTomi

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:08

http://www.attwillia.../news/view/2028

#164 cbbcisace

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:15

http://www.attwillia.../news/view/2028


Sutil to be no1 driver?

#165 Disgrace

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:19

How, pray tell, did you come to that conclusion?

#166 cbbcisace

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:20

How, pray tell, did you come to that conclusion?


Just a little guess work.... :drunk:

#167 Massa_f1

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:20

Sutil to be no1 driver?


haha i cant believe they kept Maldonado. Team on the road to nowhere. Not a fan of Rubens but he deserves the seat over him any day. Oh well they deserve thats coming.

#168 Anderis

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:20

Sutil to be no1 driver?

I hope so.

#169 showtime

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:22

haha i cant believe they kept Maldonado. Team on the road to nowhere. Not a fan of Rubens but he deserves the seat over him any day. Oh well they deserve thats coming.


They have to pay the bills. The don't have a choice.

#170 purplejohn

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:35

guess pdvsa will still be paying

#171 Andrew Hope

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:40

You guys are being kind of harsh, Maldonado wasn't terrible. Did a good job and was very quick at times as well. Maybe there are better options but better options were all rookies once as well, and it's not like they just signed Sakon Yamamoto or something.

#172 cbbcisace

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:44

You guys are being kind of harsh, Maldonado wasn't terrible. Did a good job and was very quick at times as well. Maybe there are better options but better options were all rookies once as well, and it's not like they just signed Sakon Yamamoto or something.


good god... can you imagine Yamamoto in at Williams. :rolleyes:

#173 TeamSideways

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:54

they kept him because of monaco drive that didnt get any points eventually (i dont care about the accident , its the final result) . and his money

#174 joora

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 22:56

Well, they haven't announced Rubens, which might be a sign that he is out of the picture - the other day he basically said that he would drive for jet fuel, so I can't see any problems why he couldn't be signed before todays announcement (or postpone the announcement a day or two).

Maybe he has a chance if FI keeps Sutil or he goes to LRGP

#175 showtime

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 23:00

good god... can you imagine Yamamoto in at Williams. :rolleyes:


They had Nakajima :lol:

#176 Petroltorque

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 23:16

Maldonado's caught stick in the press for bringing money but he's demonstrated a fair turn of speed getting the shopping trolley into Q3 four times was no mean feat. That Renault engine deal is €20 million a year. Someone's got to pay the bill. Running Bottas on Friday shows the team are planning for the future.
I can think of at least 5 drivers with funding and experience for Barrichello's seat.

#177 Wingcommander

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 23:29

Maldonado was sometimes quite fast, and who knows if he matures the way Petrov did during winter. And with a lot of money behind him, this one was really a no brainer. Good for Bottas to get some proper time in the car. I'd very much like to see Sutil getting to other seat.

#178 Sanman59

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 00:24

Maldonado's caught stick in the press for bringing money but he's demonstrated a fair turn of speed getting the shopping trolley into Q3 four times was no mean feat.


Absolutely right. Barrichello never got into Q3 and never ran in the top 6 during a race either. Pastor is ok and the cash is a bonus. Now get Sutil and they will have a better squad than 2011 with better funding too.

:up:

#179 King Six

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 00:41

Maldonado's caught stick in the press for bringing money but he's demonstrated a fair turn of speed getting the shopping trolley into Q3 four times was no mean feat. That Renault engine deal is €20 million a year. Someone's got to pay the bill. Running Bottas on Friday shows the team are planning for the future.
I can think of at least 5 drivers with funding and experience for Barrichello's seat.

Agreed, I think Maldonado would have beaten Rubens if it wasn't for Hamilton clattering into him at Monaco, the guy won GP2 and was unlucky in F1 in terms of incidents and having an awful car. I would take Maldonado and Sutil for Williams.

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#180 Little Leaf

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 05:51

Maldonado's caught stick in the press for bringing money but he's demonstrated a fair turn of speed getting the shopping trolley into Q3 four times was no mean feat. That Renault engine deal is €20 million a year. Someone's got to pay the bill. Running Bottas on Friday shows the team are planning for the future.
I can think of at least 5 drivers with funding and experience for Barrichello's seat.


:up:

Bang on the money here, but some people had made their minds up about Maldonado before the season started.

Interesting that Bottas will get 15 practice sessions, they are obviously gearing him up for a race seat in 2013.

So it is now a straight fight between Sutil and Rubens. With Bottas looking likely for one seat in 2013, it shows that 1 of the drivers for 2012 is only being planned for for next season. A plus for Rubens maybe? Or does he intend on carrying on until he is 50?

#181 xtremespeedjunkie

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:00

Sad days for a multi world championship winning team . When you see them being forced to sign a third tier driver like Maldonado purely to fund the Renault deal.
I am not blaming them but this shows that legendary outfits like Williams being forced to hire a guy who is in F! just cos of his backing .I can imagine the three
back-marking teams resorting to drivers like maldonado but Williams... I hope they get some good results next year so that they can break free from the
financial noose which is forcing them to sign substandard guys.

#182 xtremespeedjunkie

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:01

Sad days for a multi world championship winning team . When you see them being forced to sign a third tier driver like Maldonado purely to fund the Renault deal.
I am not blaming them but to see that legendary outfits like Williams being forced to hire a guy who is in F1 just cos of his backing is gut-wrenching .I can imagine the
three back-marking teams resorting to drivers like maldonado but Williams... I hope they get some good results next year so that they can break free from the
financial noose which is forcing them to sign substandard guys.

#183 Slackbladder

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:22

Never rated Maldonado, never will. A pretty poor driver backed with questionable money. A sign of how fall Williams has fallen,.

#184 Little Leaf

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:52

Never rated Maldonado, never will. A pretty poor driver backed with questionable money. A sign of how fall Williams has fallen,.


So you're keeping an open mind on it then? :drunk:

He is a little rough around the edges that's for sure, but has done enough to warrent another year in F1.

#185 SpeedFanatic

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:58

So you're keeping an open mind on it then? :drunk:

He is a little rough around the edges that's for sure, but has done enough to warrent another year in F1.

Why you bother replying to the xenophobic brigade? :confused:

#186 One

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:04

You mean that Williams Missed out Kimi. I can agree.

#187 Henrik B

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:19

Maldonado is a bit of an idiot (I would have suspended him for his Spa antics and he wasn't blameless in Monaco either) but he's fast and not bad at all. Some of you should pay more attention to gp2, it's a fun series and a good barometer of driver potential.

#188 Francesc

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:20

Maldonado is a bit of an idiot (I would have suspended him for his Spa antics and he wasn't blameless in Monaco either) but he's fast and not bad at all. Some of you should pay more attention to gp2, it's a fun series and a good barometer of driver potential.


He's like Hamilton.

#189 Henrik B

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:30

He's like Hamilton.


A fast idiot is always preferred over a slow genius. Maldonado is an reasonably fast idiot, so I wouldn't say he's very much like Hamilton.

Edited by Henrik B, 02 December 2011 - 10:31.


#190 Francesc

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:40

A fast idiot is always preferred over a slow genius. Maldonado is an reasonably fast idiot, so I wouldn't say he's very much like Hamilton.


Yes, Hamilton is fast and an idiot. Like Maldonado.

#191 Sevach

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:17

I'm confident Maldonado will be distributing plenty of humble pies next year :clap:

#192 Clatter

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:19

A fast idiot is always preferred over a slow genius. Maldonado is an reasonably fast idiot, so I wouldn't say he's very much like Hamilton.


I'm not convinced about the fast part.

#193 Sanman59

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:22

I'm not convinced about the fast part.


Certainly faster than Barrichello. He made Q3 three times. Barrichello Zero times. :rolleyes:

Edited by Sanman59, 02 December 2011 - 11:23.


#194 Little Leaf

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:29

I'm not convinced about the fast part.


That's yet to be proved one way or the other.

Potential is there though

#195 Henrik B

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:31

I'm not convinced about the fast part.


Reasonably fast. Okayish fast. He's not superfast, but I really don't think he's slow either.

#196 horsered99

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 12:37

As always, I hope that the next Williams is better than the last. Oh how I've been disappointed recently, but I'll never give up hope.


button to wiliams in 2013 ???

#197 SPBHM

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 13:20

button to wiliams in 2013 ???


maybe Button + Vettel?
:drunk:



#198 Little Leaf

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 13:40

If Sutil goes to Renault, Williams can only really choose Rubens again.

Petrov, Senna, Greedo-whatever really aren't going to be fast enough

#199 fed up

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 14:01

This story is not going away

http://joesaward.wor...g-in-venezuela/


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#200 jamiegc

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 14:10

This story is not going away

http://joesaward.wor...g-in-venezuela/


To be fair it's understandable. Can you imagine the uproar if the BBC sponsored Man Utd...

Looks like Pa$tor will need to cherish the 2012 season.....